Peace and harmony

We have seen some turbulent times on this forum over the last few months and some of it genuine and others blown out of proportion but we must bring this forum back to debate.

Debate is defined as:

In reply to:

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v. de

Plusnet LLU and Your Rights

You stick to not starting theads like your last one to simple attack for the sake of attacking and you'll get no trouble from me.

Lets bring this forum back to what it used to be a friendly place where people can come for help and advice and not for constant attacks on PlusNet and again you will get no problem from me.

All depends on if those who would aim to put the Plusnet reps in a corner in here, when a lot of them are clearly unable to deal with certain questions, either through orders or no authorisation/knowledge.

While Plusnet as a company deserve being criticised for things like the e-mail failure, and the usual other gripes, repetitive asking of the same questions when no answer will be given is not only pointless, but it removes the very people (representing the company) that we would like to able to ask or criticise.

Many of the customers have taken their Plusnet experience personally. Some of them may have good reason, and assuming they can rectify or resolve the issue, they should do so, but harassing individuals achieves nothing positive.

So that's my opinion. I'd be delighted to keep the peace, but take note that I don't ever start the inflammatory thread, and if I disagree with one, I'll voice my opinion.

Edited by camieabz (Sun 10-Sep-06 00:50:23)

George, this is a thread to bring this forum to harmony and not make accusations. We can disagree but we can do so as adults, with logical debate and without making accusations. You have raised valid points on PUG and elsewhere and I look forward to similar posts from you in future. This is a peace thread and not one for confrontation so let us all aim for that target.

I have made a promise and I intend to abide by it, as I am certain that you are too. We can fundamentally disagree on issues but we can and will remain civil to each other. Agreed?

We have seen some turbulent times on this forum over the last few months and some of it genuine and others blown out of proportion but we must bring this forum back to debate.

LoL that's a rich statement coming from you dude!, you have twisted and falsehooded Plusnet in a great degree in recent threads, do you want links to back up what i say?.

No that's not my style sorry, you look for yourself, it's you that seem to have made this a moral crusade. I'm sure God will look kindly on you for pointing out some trivial mistakes of an internet service provider

Anyway, i say YES to this board being a place of debate and help, but biased debate against Plusnet has become the norm so it's just a pipe dream until the customers of other ISP's namely Zen and the (awful) IDNet get lives away from this board i'm afraid.

Edited by deleted (Sun 10-Sep-06 00:58:20)

I agree with you wholeheartedly but I will make some observations. If PN decide to post on this forum again then it will be due to choice and they must only do so to impart information and help on an honest basis. What does that mean?

Do I expect them never to make a mistake? No, but I do expect them to help people the best they can but if they given an answer to a specific question then I also expect them to check and verify those facts before they post their reply to ensure that it isn't different, wrong in fact or contracdictory to company policy. All of us need consistency and truth. No more and no less.

I respect people who posted here but the company culture is one I disagreed with and was vocal about. I have said to James and Ian that there is still time to untarnish the name and I genuinley believe it. I also believe that they are trying and I wish them luck and support to achieve it.

edit typo

Edited by rsharma (Sun 10-Sep-06 02:31:22)

I will not get sucked in to personal arguments no matter how tempting it becomes.

Oh NO NO NO your at it already. It's not up to YOU to dictate on what terms PlusNet reps can return to post on this forum or what they can post. PlusNet reps are NOT responsible for company policy or any change in policy and they can only answer to the best of their ability without repercussion from anyone if they get it wrong.

The thread to which you refer put forward the argument, backed up by evidence, that PlusNet are a dishonest company. You were entitled ro argue the opposite but, for reasons best known to you, you chose not to, preferring to attack the poster personally... even after the forum moderator had posted to say: "there are issues within the OP that people can debate if they wish".

It was perhaps because the OP had presented such convincing evidence that PlusNet have been dishonest that no-one argued against the motion. Instead, in time-honoured derailment fashion, a couple of troublemakers repeatedly took their slingshots to the poster -- apparently in frustration that they couldn't muster a reasoned argument to prove PlusNet's honesty.

You can carry on with your disruptive posts and personal antagonisms because the price you demand for civility is too high. Every time anyone posts a criticism of PlusNet you will jump in and attack the poster. Hopefully the moderators will stop you eventually but you can be assured that your silence isn't worth a fig compared to the right to criticise the subject of this forum.

I have to accept that you will never come to terms with some basic facts of life about the purpose of this forum and the constituency of its members. But however disruptive you continue to be in your mission to rewrite the forum rules and to silence crticism about PlusNet from people who you consider to have no right to criticise, I strongly urge you to be civil since the alternative is to admit defeat from the get-go, as well as to risk censure from the moderators.

To help you, I am going to follow an example set earlier and not reply to any more of your posts. Since your recent efforts suggest that you only want to start a brawl, I think it is customers best interests not to engage with you and thereby reduce the noise level which you seem determined to amplify - presumably with the aim of distracting attention from the substance of some well-reasoned arguments which you happen to dislike.

So, goodbye George and good luck.

Simon

In reply to:

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Oh NO NO NO your at it already. It's not up to YOU to dictate on what terms PlusNet reps can return to post on this forum or what they can post.

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I didn't, George. Please read what I posted and it was anything but. I neither own this forum or moderate it, I stated that if the reps returned to posting here they would need to ensure certain things and those have been made clear in my post you refer to.

Simon,

I value you advice. I value your opinions. I respect you for how you come across but having read the first few lines it seem to defeat the object of this thread and hence why I haven't even bothed to read the rest. This is not about division or accusations but one to bring normality to this forum as a united front. No more and no less.

So....no intention to change your ways even slightly?

Four paragraphs of criticism and one promising to ignore someone.


I guess if we all take your lead, this place will never work. Criticism and ignoring others can't work, but it may work for some.

That is not how it reads, it sounds like you are laying down the terms and conditions.

I agree with you wholeheartedly but I will make some observations. If PN decide to post on this forum again then it will be due to choice and they must only do so to impart information and help on an honest basis. What does that mean?

Do I expect them not to ever make a mistake? No, but I do expect them to help people the best they can but if they given an answer to a specific question then I also expect them to check and verify those facts before they post their reply to ensure that it isn't different, wrong in fact or contracdictory to company policy. All of us need consistency and truth. No more and no less.

I plead with not only you but everyone, stop posting a reply in those terms. Please. I believe that a division has formed when the aim is the same in the main and for all.

Well I regret to say that some people are hell bent on keeping this forum as an Attack, Attack forum as I've been saying all along. WFA to do with helping anyone.

I've said my peace. Look to others to get the results mate. If you want peace in here, lead the way, but I doubt the main problem people will follow your lead. There's far too much in it for them, and they'ed have nothing to do over the winter.

George, if I was still a customer I would still demand the same.

If I seem to lay down the terms to those specification then it can only be a good thing for customers like you. Am I wrong?

It implies that they give information when they have consulted within the company, made a policy decision and have a consistent answer. It also means that it should always be checked and double checked before it is posted in a public forum. It implies no more.

Why do you distrust me because I can assure you that my OP is meant and written without hidden meanings or insinuations and should be read as such. I am tired or bickering with anyone and we need to make this forum a place for proper debate.

I hope that my post was on-topic, realistic, honest, civil and ultimately constructive. In the real world, I suspect that the best way to bring a measure of peace to this forum is simply to ignore posts which are disruptive, mine included.

The irony of course is that those who seek to disrupt reasoned debate only give it greater prominence so they are self-defeating. And those who engage with disruptive influences similarly promote their cause.

I don't think I have ever been personally abusive towards anyone, not even those who were being abusive towards me -- but my civility seems to anger certain people even more. So I do believe that the trusty "killfile" is the most realistic hope for a semblance of peace.

Simon

In reply to:

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the best way to bring a measure of peace to this forum is simply to ignore posts which are disruptive, mine included

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Ahh, but how can PN reps ignore you if you keep badgering them on repetitive issues? It's been a year (or so) since you started. I know you're not about to stop, because you enjoy it too much. If you didn't, you wouldn't post.

You might have made your peace with me but but if we look at the the object of this thread then I can conclude that everyone that has posted so far has done everything but accept the original post or the intentions.

We are still in division and we are no further forward to making this place a better one. Can we please have some peace and some mature behaviour from all?

Please!

Ahh, but how can PN reps ignore you if you keep badgering them on repetitive issues?.
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PlusNet reps have often ignored me - in public at least. But they have also on occasion sent me PMs saying privately that they agree with me and that corrective measures are under way. If all the corrections which were promised here actually materialised, no-one would need to keep bringing them up.
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It's been a year (or so) since you started. I know you're not about to stop, because you enjoy it too much. If you didn't, you wouldn't post.
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You think I enjoy it. Please distinguish between your opinions and that which you want people to think is fact. That would be a step towards peace and rational discussion.

Simon

I know you enjoy it.

One does not constantly put themselves through something which they do not enjoy if it's voluntary and fruitless.

Please!

http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=plusnet&Number=2656564

You know nothing of the sort, but please yourself. You have just demonstrated again your wish to cause trouble so I will not be replying to any more of your posts either. So try as you might, we will never have an argument here.

But if you ever need help, PM me.

Simon

And I'm the one that's been accused of being off topic and disruptive!

Peace and tranquilty on this forum willl never suite some people because it would interrupt their platform on which they live to perform on.

In reply to:

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your wish to cause trouble

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You have quite a sense of humour. Your first post was 4 paragraphs of diatribe and the 5th was purely about ignoring others.


Sorry rsharma, but pr100 has only one objective and that's to undermine the people who made his day bad all those months ago. I'd have more respect for him if he actually admitted that, but he falls back into this feigned veil of "who me?" and then moves on to the next thread to have a go at PN.

You want debate? Fine. I'll give you debate, and if you don't like it you can see pr100 for a solution.

In reply to:

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I undertake to deal with everyone in a mature and honest manner. I only intend to post something to this forum what I would be comfortable saying to the person's face and I will not get sucked in to personal arguments no matter how tempting it becomes. I also promise not to insult anyone, be rude to other people and to accept an opposing view irrespective how much I might disagree with their point of view.

This is not aimed at anyone in particular but to everyone as a whole. We need to move forward and towards the same goals and for the benefit of the existing customers and improved service for all. Can you join me?

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I'm sorry, but how pompous is a post like this? Especially from one who is a prime source of the disharmony.

Get down off your high horse, preaching to everyone else how to behave, and start thinking about what contribution YOUR endless vindictive rantings have made to the atmosphere in here.

As far as I'm concerned, it's you and a handful of cronies who have made this forum, to all intents and purposes unusable, over the last few months. And you have the arrogance to claim you are helping people! And now to appeal for peace and harmony.

Well, don't mind me laughing - even if I AM close to crying.

The astonishing thing is you don't even seem to see the faintest irony or hypocrisy in what you are saying.

I've been following your "dialogue" with George this evening, and I must say I agree with every word he said.

Well, I've finally said my piece - that's all I have to say on the matter.

I've got to the point now that I actually wish this forum would be shut down - that might finally put a stop to it. All those people who are only interested in spewing bile and venom at Plusnet, or any customer who dares say anything positive about them, could take themselves off elsewhere. I'm sure you'd all be very happy together, wallowing in your own collective hatred.

I will not get sucked in to personal arguments no matter how tempting it becomes.

Well at least lets give it a try for everybodies sake even though one bright spark has tried to spoil it already.

There is no point in continually repeating the same thing all the time. If you don't wish to reply say nothing.

I was trying to reinforce to all that we must make a promise and no matter how tempting it might be to reply, and I was ready to post to disprove the allegations, we must resist.

Edited by rsharma (Sun 10-Sep-06 02:41:37)

personally, TLM, the only people i see defending plusnet in such a way is a few customers which have done so constantly for the past years - even through the tough periods.

its an ISP - not a religion. I fail to see why so many choose to defend their ISP in such a way, I certainly couldnt care less what anyone says about <my> choice of ISP, as long as the service suits me then its fine.

I think plusnets service is awful, but i dont slate them at every opportunity - i believe there is some decent staff within plusnet (dave T and James B being two of them), but i believe its the upper management inside the company that is rotten and needs to be removed. There is some quite talented staff working within the company, but i believe upper management have the hands tied.

I Believe the customer facing staff genuinely do wish to help, with the exception of one or two who I wont name.

At the end of the day, the only person to blame for the mess is plusnet management. You cannot claim that a few people on the forum have a vandetta against a certain ISP - after all, what would it achieve in doing so? I believe that pr100 and a few others are taking a standpoint against plusnet because of principle alone for overcharging customers and not notifying them, which in my eyes - is fair enough. I dont like to see anyone get ripped off.

The forum needs to stop with the constant bickering from both sides of the fence - I do not believe for 1 min that the staff left the forum due to the horrible atmosphere, but more because upper management told them to do so.

This forum has *NEVER* been an official support channel, if customers require support there is always the official support channels.

Edited by deleted (Sun 10-Sep-06 04:08:51)

"Plusnet have indeed made many mistakes and they may have not always acted in the right way towards the customers but let us give them a chance to prove everyone wrong"

I think you need to give them time to prove everyone wrong.
Even though your posts are well intentioned, they are coming across as repetitive.

In the seven months since you joined ADSLguide you have made over 1200 posts, on average that is over five posts per day.
In my opinion, 5 posts per day, every day for 7 months is somewhat obsessive.
I dont know how you find the time.
In the interest of peace and harmony, why not take a week off from posting?
See if the forum settles down.
Posting comments about Plusnet every day will not make them resolve the complaints any quicker, they work at their own pace.
Take a holiday, the issues will still be there when you get back.

"its an ISP - not a religion. I fail to see why so many choose to defend their ISP in such a way"

At last I have found something I can agree with.In the almost 5 years I have been with Plusnet I have treated them and still do as nothing more than a tool to get done what I need to get done;much the same as the relationship a carpenter has with his/her hammer....... if it breaks get a new one simple as that don't make a fuss.

"I think plusnets service is awful"

Now I think if more people had stated that in a similar manner "I think" then I don't think there would have been anywhere near as many arguments because quality of service is a subjective thing from my point of view Zen or any other ISP is no good to me...... myself personally when I signed up with Plusnet on dial up I considered it to be an excellent service and to this day still do.Have they made mistakes of course they have and of course they will in the future....... have they lied well that is something that is going to be debated until the next ice age has been and gone as one persons lie is another persons confusion and contrary to what some may say here I feel that I have been kept up to date on what is going on.But on that score can anyone from Zen tell me as I cannot find the relavent links if they consider there was enough time between them stating they have no intentions of bringing in "caps" and restrictions and actually bringing them in to install the necessary hardwear develop any software needed....... if they did it must have been very tight as I am sure (and could be wrong) it was only a matter of weeks.But I cannot get away from the fact that due to the timescale I cannot see it being very likely that they weren't already considering "caps" and restrictions........... so did they lie?

"few others are taking a standpoint against plusnet because of principle alone for overcharging"

But who are they to set themselves up to make decisions for other people as to if they are being overcharged or not? Again I felt I was aware that I could get a less expensive product than what I was on...... the only problem was in that case the all you can eat brigade immediately jumped onto that product and then a few weeks later the door was shut and they found out you only get what you pay for.Thats when the "lies" and "deceit" accusations started flying around much the same as when the 0800 "anytime" equals "all the time" battles that filled the forums a few years back, and is still carring on unfortunatly.Some of us actually did realise that with the prices going down such a drastic ammount something had to give......... and it did.Now I can sit back knowing that I have a 30Gig peak time allowance from 1600-0000hrs and provide I don't stray too close to 150Gig in total per month I will be ok all for what I consider a reasonable price.my speed is pretty well constant at Downstream 5,196.0 Kbps( = 5.1 Mbps ) Upstream687.9 Kbps( = 0.7 Mbps ),and if you look here http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=zen&Number=2651128&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=#Post2651128 you will see that my pings on that particualr day were better than Zens not that they mean a lot. But I think the value for money gap is beginning to close....... so I ask again who are they to decide for me that I was being overcharged they may have thought they were but that does not mean everyone was,or did not know.Interesting to note that on the Plusnet forums there are quit rumblings about Plusnet putting prices up a bit so they can afford to bring things back to the way they were.I personally cannot see it happening but when customers start suggesting things like that there must be some happy ones around that are prepared to pay a bit more.

rsharma

Sorry but although I do admire you motives you must have realised that a topic like this would not last more than 3 posts.before becoming a free for all again.To be honest I don't know who wrote it but I have to agree about the idea of this forum being closed down as it has in the past served a worthy purpose,but now I am sorry to say the term a "chocolate fireguard" springs to mind.Failing that for a while until the dust settles a bit I would like to see the "mods" and owners take a more proactive stance and not let posters see how close to the wind they can sail and then only get their wrists slapped.

But you did reply, that's my point.

I think your asking a bit much in here, theres far too many folks keen on derailing threads and turning debate into personal confrontations.

In reply to:

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I actually wish this forum would be shut down

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Please no. I think it's far too valuable a resource for the uninvolved lurker who occasionally drops in for a bit of light entertainment. In my opinion the sparkling repartee between the self-appointed defenders of the gullible consumer and the fanatical upholders of the PlusNet faith would be sorely missed. [Note care taken to express opinion rather than make categorical statement]

I have today made a decision not to post to this forum for the foreseeable future. All I ever tried to do is share my experiences and give advice to those that needed it in a calm and honest manner but this in turn has created too much unnecessary controversy that I didn't seek or want . Should anyone need advice on a matter that you feel I can help with please feel free to send me a PM and I will answer as soon as possible.

Regards,
RSharma

George,

As much as I want to ensure everyone has their say, it seems to me that you are looking for an argument with this post.. I'm sure I'm mistaken and look forward to this thread not degenerating

seb

I think you've missed the point in rsharma's post.


seb

In reply to:

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You know nothing of the sort, but please yourself. You have just demonstrated again your wish to cause trouble so I will not be replying to any more of your posts either. So try as you might, we will never have an argument here.

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This is reminding me of the playground... everyone has to have the last word

seb

In reply to:

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I'm sorry, but how pompous is a post like this? Especially from one who is a prime source of the disharmony

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Having spoken to rsharma I think it's a genuine one.. I think some people here (and this doesn't apply to "one side" or "the other" but both, are looking for an argument.. Your reaction is no different to those who dismiss any attempt by PN to rectify problems.

> In my opinion, 5 posts per day, every day for 7 months is somewhat obsessive.

I guess I'm past the point of recovery


seb

Come on Seb, the only peeps dismissing plusnet has problems is plusnet itself. I think if anything a sticky should be posted at the top of this forum listing everything classed as dishonest customers believe plusnet has done. As a warning for other potential customers of what they'd be getting themselves into.

Rsharma and Pr100 are a credit to this forum and a credit to Plusnets customers. They're effort should be commended not walked all over by those who believe plusnet as a company does no wrong.

Edited by buggerlugz (Sun 10-Sep-06 13:43:47)

In reply to:

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Come on Seb, the only peeps dismissing plusnet has problems is plusnet itself.

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Erm... actually that is factually flawed.. they have accepted they have problems.. just not the problems you may think t hey have.

In reply to:

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I think if anything a sticky should be posted at the top of this forum listing everything classed as dishonest customers believe plusnet has done. As a warning for other potential customers of what they'd be getting themselves into.

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By making a sticky post, it is inferred that this is our opinion.. We have been very careful with what we've said to protect your freedom to express your concerns.

In reply to:

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Rsharma and Pr100 are a credit to this forum and a credit to Plusnets customers. They're effort should be commended not walked all over by those who believe plusnet as a company does no wrong.

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As I have just said in the sticky I posted, everyone thinks they are right and the "others" are wrong. We have tried to manage the balance.. Those who just want a fight though I would suggest sign up to a gym and find a punching bag.. I'm sure that photos of Messrs Strafford, Chapman or myself can be found relatively easily if you need motivation.. and I'm sure everyone has friends to egg them on too


seb

Well, I'm not going to apologise, because I'm totally at the end of my tether with this - and, I must be honest, with management reluctance to curtail it. Free speech is indeed a wonderful thing, but not when it's abused to make the same old arguments day in, day out, for a year or more, at the expense of anything constructive.

It's telling that the other evening, I posted with a genuine problem/query, and I received just ONE response. And that was from Camie, who (with all due respect to him) doesn't really count, given that he is an online buddy, and probably would answer anyway, if he saw that no-one else did.

I'm going to do what others (including Plusnet) have done long ago, and give up with this forum. Not AG, just this part of it.

I am neither "pro-Plusnet" nor "anti-Plusnet". I certainly don't think they are beyond reproach, but on the other hand, I feel I have had (and still have) a decent and pretty reliable service, for the price. I also haven't found any basis for the claims of rampant dishonesty.

I am sick and tired of all of it, and that's the honest truth.

I have stayed loyal to this forum, hoping things would eventually get better, but finally I see that I am best off out of it.

T.

I think seb, you (adsl mgmt) have forgotten how these forums used to be. Regardless of how good or bad an ISP may or may not have been, you could get genuine help for genuine problems, fair advice and guidance.

But if you could seriously take a step back and look at the PN forum today, you would see how totally useless it has become. A handful of repetitive posters (4 immediately spring to mind), posting the same attacks (2 in the guise of help, 2 in straight attacks). As TLM said, he posted a question and I for one didn't see it.

The points have been raised again and again and again. Sometimes I pop in to the usergroup forums, and yes there are complaints there, but overall there is help over there, the atmosphere is so much better than here. You guys are allowing this place to die a slow and painful death. This is way beyond free speech, let those 4 setup their own hate web sites.

:edit just seen your sticky: The point about ignoring posts, give us a kill file function, then we could possibly see the other posts.

Edited by onestar (Sun 10-Sep-06 14:47:48)

"By making a sticky post, it is inferred that this is our opinion.. We have been very careful with what we've said to protect your freedom to express your concerns. "

Well why don't ADSLguide staff take a side? You can't sit on the fence forever. Alot of angst in these forums exists because as the UK's largest ADSL focused website adslguide does not speak out about injustice. Theres been enough discussion, its obvious that plusnet in its policies believes it can do things which are wrong (if notmorally reprehensible).

You know what goes on in the UK ADSL market, you probably know alot more about what goes on at Plusnet too, but why don't ADSLguide do something about it?

This website exists to help customers make a choice, surely you have some responsibilty to that choice and as such should give good advice?

"Ahh, but how can PN reps ignore you if you keep badgering them on repetitive issues?"

Like it or not PN reps are there to take the flak. If they don't like it they are in the wrong job. Every time they receive feedback from customers they can do nothing about they should make representations to mgmt to solve the situation. If the reps keep on getting badgered with the same bunch of issues, then mgmt have the wrong policies.

"It's been a year (or so) since you started."

So Simon is in the wrong because PN have had unfair policies for a year?

TT

In reply to:

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I think seb, you (adsl mgmt) have forgotten how these forums used to be. Regardless of how good or bad an ISP may or may not have been, you could get genuine help for genuine problems, fair advice and guidance.

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We do want this to be a site where people will help each other but when it comes to it we are also here for people to choose an ISP, and this is not an "ISP users only" community. A user group for current users is obviously going to attract less criticism as anyone unhappy with an ISP will leave at some point.. For helping users of the service this has its benefits, but it also gives people who are looking at the service a distorted picture of problems. Communities such as that attract happier users... and ironically because a lot of happy users use those, it means we may end up with more unhappy users.. but forcing those away from our site isn't the answer either.

I do agree on the issue of raising points again and again.. There are two fundemental problems with this issue and how we deal with it. Firstly, when an ISP believes they have not made a mistake or done anything wrong (e.g. pricing on the Premier), this becomes an on-going issue.. If a mistake is admitted keeping on at it has no merit.. If there is a legitimate argument about an ISP's attitude, it becomes a more difficult situation to judge. This isn't to say one or two issues can continue forever to dominate the forum.. and even rsharma has suggested we should move on.. but look at the response some from the so called "pro-PN" camp to what I do believe is a genuine suggestion (because I had an e-mail exchange with him before it).

In reply to:

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just seen your sticky: The point about ignoring posts, give us a kill file function, then we could possibly see the other posts.

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I will have to admit I think in this situation a killfile function could be useful because of the sheer volume of posts.. but do remember it's those who reply to those posts that cause the issues..


seb

In reply to:

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And that was from Camie, who (with all due respect to him) doesn't really count.

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I myself have no further input to this thread. It's like so many in here. It started with a positive point, and was pulled down by those who wish it to remain negative. rsharma's method may have been a little flawed, but I saw his point, and agreed with most of it. Pity really.

In reply to:

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Well why don't ADSLguide staff take a side? You can't sit on the fence forever. Alot of angst in these forums exists because as the UK's largest ADSL focused website adslguide does not speak out about injustice. Theres been enough discussion, its obvious that plusnet in its policies believes it can do things which are wrong (if notmorally reprehensible).

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See you want us to take YOUR SIDE... How do you think we can moderate a forum if we focus on pushing our personal views here.. We do comment on our views and I think someone (probably PN but I don't have time to check so I won't attribute it to them) took issue with that.. This doesn't bother me.



seb

I have opined elsewhere in this thread that a killfile is the most pragmatic way to reduce the antagonism and general noise level here. But I don't think it would suit some posters who are not so much concerned for their own peace but seem passionate about trying to prevent certain views being seen by others.

The oft-expressed notion (by a small number of posters) that no-one apart from current customers should be allowed to express criticism is at the root of the problems I think.

Simon

Au contraire. By undertaking not to reply to certain posters I am effectively guaranteeing them the last word, n'est-ce pas?

Simon

I'm not suggesting you take sides in debates in the forums, I'm suggesting you run a story or put a sticky at the top of the forum page warning customers of the dangers of picking a certain ISP. Like "this ISP" has done this! Shock horror!" and "this ISP has done that!". "We think its wrong and should stop" etc......

Its not about sides seb, its about DOING THE RIGHT THING, it don't just go for plusnet it goes for ALL ISP's. You know what goes on yet ADSLguide continues to sit silent neglecting to inform potential / existing customers of what ISP's are doing.

At the end of the day, you know aswell as me that unscrupulous things happen in UK ADSL.

>>>>>>Well why don't ADSLguide staff take a side?

I have as a matter of fact and that is the side of being part of an independent BBS and to keep it that way as best I can.

This site has allowed you to express your feelings, the same ones and repeated many many times it seems, but also allowed people who feel just as strongly as you to put a different viewpoint, regardless of our sympathies for one side or another, if we have any that is.

If you want a more partisan site where people of like minds can agree...well start one, but it will be a rather sterile one I suspect.

Everybody wants better moderation, the problem being that everyone has a different concept of what that means...and who should be moderated,.... that's the kicker.

All it takes is to delete posts that are personally abusive. But then that causes problems because all posts linked to that one, even though not abusive are also deleted.

Perhaps bans from posting in a particular forum where one has misbehaved?. I think the problem arises where personal abuse is posted as per this list, all from one poster;
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=plusnet&Number=2655701

Yet appears to go unchecked, whilst other posts less offensive are commented on.

He thought so too. But rsharma's post was for discussion, rather than an edict. I'm more pragmatic I guess. There isn't an iceberg in Hell's chance that certain posters will ever allow certain other posters to express a criticism of PlusNet without attacking their motives and their fitness to be here. The price of 'peace & harmony' laid down by that faction appears to be that PlusNet criticism by non-customers should cease.

To me, that is not a price that is worth entertaining for as much as a nanosecond.

Some of that faction have been making similar attacks on the integrity of PlusNet critics, even in the PN portal forum, for several years now. Therefore, the possibility that they might change their ways in response to rsharma's post seemed remote to me, based on all current and past form. Some of them also seem to believe that certain of the more vocal PlusNet critics have an ulterior motive for posting, other than to help customers and potential customers, and that prejudicial view invariably colours their own contributions. I do not know of any ulterior motives and there has certainly been no evidence of any. But they will inevitably continue to hold that view as long as certain posters comment or criticise.

That amounts to an impasse and my pragmatic supplementary proposal for at least partially clearing the air was simply not to engage in discussion with anyone who seems intent on mounting personal attacks, de-railing debates and/or anything else which causes heat.

Simon

Will you pay AG court cost when they are sued by the ISP's?

What you are asking is for YOUR opinions to be posted which may not be those of the majority of customers.

Certainly not Seb quite the opposite. I was just pointing out that if we are to have peace and harmony no one can start dictating the terms and conditions should PlusNet staff wish to rerturn to this forum. I think you mis read my post.

In reply to:

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I'm sorry, but how pompous is a post like this? Especially from one who is a prime source of the disharmony.

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My thoughts exactly.

Putting all the past behind us can we at least attempt to get this forum back to what it was. I'm sure I'm not the only one that is sad at the way it's been hijacked by the anti brigade but if they are ignored then sooner or later they will get fed up and move on.

I'm asking for ADSLguide to do the right thing is all, nothing more. ADSL in the uk is in a shambles, ISP's are allowed to do what they like, lock customers into long contracts and even move them onto LLU without telling them, this is a fact its not an opinion.

Its wrong, and yet ADSLguide is not championing the customer, its allowing ISP's like plusnet to walk all over them.

Can`t resist the inflammatory posts can you

Nor can you to reply them!

seb

The ISP business may be a shambles but you cannot accuse any ISP of locking you into a contract. You have two options regarding a contract, accept or reject it. If you choose to accept it then it's your responsibilty to read and understand the terms and conditions of that contract before agreeing to it.

As for ADSLguide part in all this - They don't have one. It's not their duty to hold customers hands, they can only report facts.

Sorry but are we both talking about the same post - What is inflamatory in what I posted? It was a genuine attempt to get this forum back to what it used to be.

Simon,

You use the word "they" quite a lot.. how about using "we"

seb

In reply to:

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Nor can you to reply them!

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My point exactly http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=plusnet&Number=2657079

What was the purpose of the post in the first place???. Yet it goes without comment by yourself.

In reply to:

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I'm sure I'm not the only one that is sad at the way it's been hijacked by the anti brigade but if they are ignored then sooner or later they will get fed up and move on.

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What on earth has this to do with the subject matter???. Your numerous posts in this thread alone have not once addressed the topic. Instead you have attacked individuals.

In reply to:

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Putting all the past behind us can we at least attempt to get this forum back to what it was. I'm sure I'm not the only one that is sad at the way it's been hijacked by the anti brigade but if they are ignored then sooner or later they will get fed up and move on.

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You are obsessed with having this forum for Plusnet ONLY customers

Checking all your posts since 22nd July ( couldnt be bothered going back further ) you have helped no one at all only made posts to cause arguments !

You are the one with a major problem !

"As for ADSLguide part in all this - They don't have one. It's not their duty to hold customers hands"

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=guide&x=31&y=16

guide [gahyd]
1. to assist (a person) to travel through, or reach a destination in, an unfamiliar area, as by accompanying or giving directions to the person: He guided us through the forest.

Perhaps Seb should change the name of the site then?

TT

It should, to ASDLfumble or ADSLstuff because apart from the comparison theres no guidance at all. If ADSLguide published stories about customers of ISP's who were struggling to get the service they needed it would put pressure on the entire Industry to buck its ideas up. Its not libelous if its true, and its not exactly difficult to get proof these days is it?

In reply to:

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If the reps keep on getting badgered with the same bunch of issues, then mgmt have the wrong policies.

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Not always _TT_. It is possible for a management policy to be the correct one, but ultimately not to everyones taste. (Much like the introduction of caps was the correct option -for the majoroty of the customer base - but based on the number of negative posts at the time you would be saying they were wrong).

I think the problems for the past year or so is more that there has been far too much repetition which has resulted in the current disharmony we have in this forum.

There would need to be storied of customer getting what they need, and the ratio would have to be roughly equivelant to the ratio of happy to unhappy customers the ISP has though, otherwise AG could easily be accused of being biased. Aside from the immense difficulty of getting these ratios in the first place (the noise level of a forum is not accurate as it is acknowledged that people are more likely to post when unhappy than happy), it is likely the stories would be predominently positive for virtually all ISPs.
The other thing is the stories would need to time lapse otherwise they could be portraying a view that was accurate (both positive and negative views) many months ago but is completely wrong at that time.

Then you are both wrong imho. The disharmony here flows directly from the antagonism from a few towards those who dare to criticise PlusNet without paying for the privilege. rsharma, for one, has been almost painfully calm, rational and polite throughout. His only "crime" has been to voice criticism of PlusNet and give advice to those who can't get justice from the company.

Shame on you for letting him now be a martyr. Methinks that will be a pyrrhic victory for those who have sought to smother free speech.

Simon

I'm sorry to disagree with you but I don't see how this could work on this site as set up. The management has to keep to the middle ground otherwise it will be accused of biased moderation in the forums. Like you, I would be surprised if Seb & Co did not have some really juicy stories up their sleeve but I don't see how they can use them on this site.

But I did notice some very direct quotes from AG in a national newspaper BB artcile the other day. Offsite, they can presumably be freer.

Simon

I can't use "we" ever since I don't speak on behalf of anyone else. But I did use "I" from time to time

Simon

I don't think many people objected to network management on principle. The complaints were mostly about the underhand and inept way that PlusNet implemented it.

Simon

But I never mentioned network management as in the use of the Ellacoyas etc, I mentioned caps which when introduced provoked a lot of heated debate about them, with the majority appearing to suggest they were wrong and would be the downfaill of any ISP. The reality is the caps are a problem for few customers.

"Not always _TT_. It is possible for a management policy to be the correct one, but ultimately not to everyones taste."

It depends on what they're managing. Platform management is a good thing for the majority of users. Recent policies centre around holding onto users money if/when they become aware there are refunds and turn up to claim them. This policy only benefits the PN coffers.

If I'd decided to do a sponsored skydive in aid of a charity and had spent time finding sponsors and taking the money in advance only to pull out at the last minute due to some unforeseen problems, would you all be happy with me if I made a short announcement about it somewhere most people wouldn't read it asking for people to claim their money back. I have their addresses and the amount they sponsored, shouldn't I make an effort to return the money myself?

If PN are planning on returning to AG they shouldn't bother. There will only be the same old issues brought up. This policy is inherently wrong and should be rectified with refunds for all.

TT

Excuse my haste then. Caps were understandably objected to most strongly by those who had been persuaded to join PN by their offer of unlimited downloads. Some, still in their initial contract period, could probably have won compensation for the changes to their product.

For everyone else, it's easy: like it or move somewhere else. That's life.

However, I think there were also some justifiable complaints about the complexity of the caps and the manner in which they were applied.

Simon

I don't see anywhere in that post were I said PlusNet only. I think you just want to start another agument - Sorry I'm not going to play!

Closed as I think this issue is well discussed.. hope everyone reflects.

seb