Noisy line and loss of sync (HR Dis?)

Hi,

I'm hoping someone here I could help with a problem I'm having with my broadband.

I'm on ADSL Max 8Mb and usually my speedtest results were around 5Mbps, but a couple of weeks ago my router (Netgear DG834G) lost sync overnight. When sync finally did come back a bit later I was only able to obtain a speedtest of 160kbps!

I tried replacing my ADSL Nation XTE-2005 for a couple of microfilters which made no difference
neither did a change of cables, connected to the test socket on the NTE-5 again making no difference. A change of Router (Origo plus 4) and modem (Speedtouch 330) also made no difference.

I don't usually bother with a telephone on this line so had to borrow one, which showed that when the handset was lifted, the router/modem would lose sync until either the handset was left off for a bit or was replaced. Also through the handset I could hear what sounds like data (squeal/hiss) when the router has synced up.

The phone when plugged into the test socket,or into a filter without a router is clear which led me to believe this is a HR Dis fault.

Anyway, Openreach came out this morning and after about half an hour said that it wasn't a HR Dis but was a faulty faceplate that was causing the problem, which I find hard to believe because it's a brand new XTE-2005 which I received a couple of days before.

I don't really have a good idea what tests were done, sync initially increased to ~ 5Mbps throughput was still at 160kbps or less and the noise remained in the handset. I'm also convinced he didn't check the quality of the wiring at the demarcation point.

Over the next week, sync varied before settling at 5632 kbps and a throughput of 4500 kbps. Quite a difference!

This was OK until a couple of days ago when we had a pretty bad storm and now the original symptoms are back. i.e. noise in handset when router is connected and sync again dropped to 160 kbps.

Again, filters have been swapped – no change.

Any advice what to mention to BT would be great as I'm still convinced it could be a HR Dis.

I'm also convinced things get worse after bad weather.

Help!

Phill.

Seeing as how you have tried a microfilter in the test socket it can't be the faceplate, I would complain to BT that they wrongly diagnosed your problem and explain you have tried alternative filters that proves they are wrong.

Can you get LLU at your exchange? Sounds like BT profiling making your line go up the shoot.

If you can go over to LLU may be prudent?

Might it be worth trying another router for elimination purposes???

After reading your post I'm not sure if you are aware of how ADSL MAX works - apologies if you are!

If you have had a 'low sync event' then your IP Profile will reduce.
If you then sync higher then it can be 'up to' 5 days before your normal speeds return.

I can recommend RouterStats(free s/w) to monitor your connection!

After the storm what are you currently syncing/connecting at?
NB. This isn't the same as a 'speedtest' that you initially mention in your post as your IP Profile will most likely have changed.

Hi and thank you for the replies.

I received an automated call from BT this morning with the results of the line test, which was all clear. Typical!

I'd left the telephone connected direct to the test socket overnight should by any chance someone was coming to check things and noticed that there was a very faint crackle in the handset. We've had crappy weather here again too.

I'd also taken receipt this morning of another XTE2005 as well as a new twisted pair ADSL cable, which I installed so I could check the stats which were showing a sync of 160 kbps. The screeching noise was also present in the handset as before whilst the router is connected.

Anyway, after trying another router (one I'd tried originally and got the same results) this time it synced at around 5 Mbps and the noise had gone in the handset! After a few moments of cursing in case the DG834G was faulty, I reconnected the DG834G and now this synced at around 5.5 Mbps with no (or very little) noise in the handset.

I understand about the sync not being the same as throughput and that my IP profile will take a hit whilst I have to leave things settle for a while. It's just weird that the sync varies from between 160kbps and around 5 Mbps, especially as the weather has now perked up a bit!

I'd just downloaded router stats yesterday and run it for a couple of hours to get some idea as to what was going on, which showed fluctuations of SNR between 12 dB to 6 dB. Sync was constant at 160 kbps. I shall plot it again later!

Thanks again for the replies,

Phill

Just a little update.

This morning, I have the problem back again (loss of sync, noise through handset etc.)which was the same as before.

Luckily, I left Router Stats running overnight and this has captured the point where sync was lost at 11:08 am.

A selection of the results are below (I'd been running it since 00:50 this morning without event):

Started: Thu 16 Jul 2009 00:50

11:07:07 Rx-Noise= 13 Tx-Noise= 27 Rx-Sync= 5440 Tx-Sync= 448
11:07:27 Rx-Noise= 13 Tx-Noise= 27 Rx-Sync= 5440 Tx-Sync= 448
11:07:47 Rx-Noise= 13 Tx-Noise= 27 Rx-Sync= 5440 Tx-Sync= 448
11:08:07 Rx-Noise= 13 Tx-Noise= 27 Rx-Sync= 5440 Tx-Sync= 448
11:08:27 Rx-Noise= 21474836 Tx-Noise= 27 Rx-Sync= 0 Tx-Sync= 0
11:08:47 Rx-Noise= 27 Tx-Noise= 22 Rx-Sync= 224 Tx-Sync= 448
11:09:07 Rx-Noise= 0 Tx-Noise= 22 Rx-Sync= 224 Tx-Sync= 448
11:09:27 Rx-Noise= 0 Tx-Noise= 0 Rx-Sync= 0 Tx-Sync= 0
11:09:47 Rx-Noise= 0 Tx-Noise= 0 Rx-Sync= 0 Tx-Sync= 0
11:10:07 Rx-Noise= 0 Tx-Noise= 0 Rx-Sync= 0 Tx-Sync= 0


As can be seen, sync is lost at 11:08:27, when the Rx-Noise reaches 21 Million dBs!

Apparently at this time, the it was quite windy but no rain as far as I know.

I've got no idea how to proceed with getting this problem sorted, as it looks like it's an intermittent fault.

I've tried my Origo router again and this is not syncing (well it did once until the handset was lifted).

Phill

to me there is a fault on the line of some sort. Whether or not its HR I couldnt say.

Your experience of the engineer visit reminds me of the same, I have had engineers telling me a hissing phone is normal quality etc. so (some of them at least) they do seem to need to be pushed.

As I understand it a HR fault is to do with poor joints and especially wet getting in the joints? so it occuring again after a storm would then make sense.

There is remote tests that can be done which help show up a HR fault but I cannot remember the name of these tests sorry.

Hi
quote can be seen, sync is lost at 11:08:27, when the Rx-Noise reaches 21 Million dBs!

shows the SNR margin has gone to <0 db some routers cannot display -tive figures .
Regards Jeff

In reply to a post by jeffbb:

Hi
quote can be seen, sync is lost at 11:08:27, when the Rx-Noise reaches 21 Million dBs!

shows the SNR margin has gone to <0 db some routers cannot display -tive figures .
Regards Jeff

Hi Jeff,

That makes sense. I remember seeing some huge number in the DG834 stats page & a google search confirms that the DG834 is one of these routers that doesn't list <0 dBs properly.

Phill

Hi

Regarding Openreach, could someone give me an idea what a Hawk or Mole looks like? As far as I know, the guy who came here only hooked up a laptop.

I don't think he checked any internal wiring either and he definitely didn't check up the pole.

The other thing is, of he was so sure that it was a dodgy filter why didn't he fit one of Openreach's own brand filter and bill me for it rather than put mine back if it was faulty? I'd left 3 microfilters out and don't suppose he tested any of these either.

Seems to be an easy £150+ for around half hours work.

I had a problem a couple of years ago where my line went dead. The voice side was fixed by the next day. The engineer left a message on my answering machine, saying there was a fault at the exchange which had been fixed, but I'd be without the internet for 10 days for some reason.

An email to Pipex (my then ISP) was no use as they weren't aware of any fault, and couldn't (wouldn't !!!) help but I should get back to BT who said it wasn't their problem get back to Pipex who... (ad nauseum). Two weeks later my broadband came back. Looks like it was a cease & re-provide.

I'm left with a similar problem now. BT say there's no line fault as confirmed by their remote testing initiated from India and my ISP say they can't do anything if there's a line fault. And with it being an 'intermittent' problem, I'm concerned about being hit for £150+ every time someone comes out, even though I don't think the problem is at the house.

LLU isn't really an option here either. There is only Orange, Talk Talk, Bulldog and PIpex/Tiscali (who converted me stealthily to a LLU sometime last year and whom I left in April this year to go with my present ISP and had to pay £50 to convert to a non LLU).

Cue lots of banging head against wall!

Phill

yeah after 10 or so visits I also dont know what a mole looks like, its odd that some people will get an engineer he does a good job uses a mole etc. changes dropwire that sort of stuff.

Whilst me and you we get just a laptop online woosh test and job done. At least I have never been charged for a visit tho so thats some conselation I guess.

Openreach couldn't even be bothered to turn up on the day they were supposed to either.

A quote from my ISP regarding the report from the "Tests" is below:

"[06-07-2009 20:16:42] 15 - Engineer notes suggest that he found line
noisy due tocustomers adsl faceplate which was not filtering properly.Line was working Ok and circuit was insync with
engineers filter."

"At the moment BT are suggesting the visit is chargeable due to the failed face plate I'm afraid".

The above doesn't fill me with hope regarding charges. Again, no list of tests actually carried out.

Phill

on one occasion I had a engineer turn up who then told me he was a voice engineer and nothing he can do so promptly left.. This was during my time on aaisp, and aaisp show the BTw logs to the customer so I can see what BTw reported back to aaisp. The BTw report to aaisp was that the engineer turned up and did laptop tests which passed with flying colours. So after experiencing that I will certianly believe what you are saying, anything seems to be possible with BT now days.

Hi,

He had to borrow a torch off me too, even if it was as bright as a Birthday cake candle!

I was thinking about the Hawk/Mole maybe a clue is in the names? Hawk checks above ground cables and the Mole, well, underground cables? Or maybe my powers of deduction aren't too hot!
Wondered at one point whether these items were software based and that's why he used the laptop so much. Though I suppose taking a laptop up the pole would be a bit cumbersome!

All we can do is hope eh? Yeah right!

No doubt they still want their line rental too?!

Phill.

The hawk tests for line length, capacitance and is a multimeter. The mole tests for cable faults.
Oh, and the laptop runs the woosh test as already mentioned.

Edited by deleted (Mon 20-Jul-09 12:28:20)

Hi,

So is either the Hawk or Mole used inside the property? I swear that he said that if it was a HR Dis, then "this would have shown it" by "this" he meant laptop.

I think I'm going to have to ask for a list of tests carried out somehow from my ISP.

You just need to hook them onto the cable at the network termination.

Well,

Looks like Openreach are paying me another visit:

When the engineer goes out to check the fault he will test your line from your main socket back to the exchange. If the fault is found to be with your own equipment or internal wiring you may be charged for this visit.

If the fault is with your own equipment or wiring, the cost of the repair is as follows Call Out fee £115.00 including VAT and a per hour rate of £99.00 including VAT.

To which I replied:

Hi,

Thursday is fine.

If I do get charged and the fault reappears, then I assume that I would be entitled to a refund?

Like I have said, I feel that I have replaced all the things that I can replace. For BT Openreach to blame the filter which was fitted from new 2 days prior to them coming out the first time feels like a bit of a cop out.

Are things like terminations prior to the DP going to be checked for signs of corrosion/wear as a matter of course? Surely with there being noise (crackle) through the handset whilst plugged into the test socket with no ADSL equipment, then this is something to consider.

I am really concerned that if there is a problem which is weather related that this is going to cause a false positive and result in my getting charged. But, if the line is going to be thoroughly checked then this is a chance I have to take.

Bet it'll be the filter again somehow!

I'd run Router Stats again for a few hours this morning. Initially sync was at 2528 kbps with Rx noise of 4 dB which peaked at 10dB.

Gradually over a period of ~ 40 minutes where it dropped to < 0 dB and sync was lost.

When sync was re-established, it was at 160 kbps with a Rx Noise of 16 dB and has peaked at 27 dB.

Phill

-----------------
The hawk tests for line length, capacitance and is a multimeter. The mole tests for cable faults.
Oh, and the laptop runs the woosh test as already mentioned.
------------------

100% wrong.

The mole is history to anyone with a Hawk. When you get a Hawk, you have (supposed) to return your mole, 1083, & mega.

The Hawk replaces them all, & frankly, if used correctly is better. Costs about £1200 or did when it came out.

Openreach engineers no longer have access to whooh or should I say the main ADSL parts (BTW only). The laptop runs it's own tests & can interact (cable or bluetooth) with the Hawk.

Thought I'd try the Origo plus 4 again last night plugged into the new filtered faceplate an cable. No change. Noise was still present through the handset.

Swapping back to the DG834G made no difference either (I just wanted to check again that this wasn't faulty by using the Origo). Sync was at around 2.2 Mbps, noise at around 10 dB.

Anyway, sometime this morning sync's been lost (hadn't used Router Stats this time, but could see from the stats page of the router that noise margin was at 1 dB). Sync was re-established at 160 kbps again @ 15 dB. Now it's at 13 dB and probably will pop off again sometime!

And it's raining too!

Regarding Openreach, is it their responsibility to check things like wiring to the NTE5 backplate, at the pole or even the tie pair at the exchange?

I just wish that they'd check for signs of water ingress somewhere as it save them from having to come out every so often.

Phill

Hi

Openreach came this morning. He took a listen to the line through the
phone and his handset, disconnected my filter and Router modem and said line was clear.

He then proceeded to connect the router and goes "listen! It's your
modem that's faulty" Makes a change from filters I suppose!

He then proceeds to pull WAN cable out of router a goes "see, it's gone"

I swapped Routers in front of him & thankfully, the noise was still there. He
then tried to blame the cable until I told him it's new.

I said that this is a symptom of a HR Dis - He hasn't got a hawk with him. Told me a HAWK & MOLE are the same thing & there used to be a RAT????!!!!!

Don't think he knows what a HR Dis is somehow and just brought one of those handsets - no laptop this time.

He wouldn't go up the pole to check for corrosion/breaks as he said it is a sealed unit.

Anyway, he's gone off in a bit of a strop and said he's going to do some more tests. That was an hour and a half ago.

Can't believe I had to explain a HR Dis to him!

Help!!

Phill

yep nice one, like I said on the entanet thread (I am currently debating with systemx there how bad openreach are) that my impression of visits is the engineer especially on longer lines will go out there way to try and get end user fault diagnosis and you had that, he started off trying to blame your modem and then cable and now he is in a strop because he now has to look for the actual fault.

A engineer that doesnt know what a HR dis is, either bad training or playing dumb.

My only advise will be first wait for him to come back, if he then says he hasnt found anything wrong, tell him you will not accept that the pole has no fault until he goes up and checks, make it clear it is up to him to prove there is no fault.

Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 23-Jul-09 12:52:59)

My ISP isn't being much help either now. They're saying as they didn't arrange Openreach to call, then it's nothing to do with them.

The reason B.T. got involved is because I posted on another (non internet specific forum) and got a reply from somebody at BT Support who said to PM them, then they suggested Openreach coming out. Can't understand why they didn't contact me through here?

As things stand at the moment, the problem is still there. It's been pouring down and I don't expect them to come back. I'm really losing faith.

I think my only option (which isn't a great one due to who's available here) is Talk Talk.

I quite like the fact that they have a customer forum, which I haven't got with mine.

But until this problem is sorted, then I'm pretty screwed anyway and paying for the pleasure.

Good luck with your problem.

Phill

If it is an HR fault the engineer will not be able to detect it using an automated line test from his laptop. That interfaces with the TAM test head in the exchange and runs a single ended line test.

The only way to reliably test for an HR fault is by doing a double ended line test on the circuit. That is what the hawk is used for. I think the main reason engineers seem reluctant to do this is because it is time consuming. They need to travel back to the exchange first to setup one part of the hawk, then tramp back to the customer premises to run the test. If they know what they are doing and how to read the hawk then at this point they should see the HR and approximately where it is on the line. They then have to go back up the line and test towards the exchange from each cabinet etc. to find exactly which section of the cable it is. At which point the most likely thing they will do is move your line onto another pair in the bundle that runs from that cab to the next.

editted to add If it is an HR fault on the copper pair then moving to TalkTalk won't fix the problem..... they are still reliant on Openreach to fix faults like this.

Edited by deleted (Thu 23-Jul-09 13:34:23)

Time to change ISP I think.

If you have tried several filters in the master socket with the faceplate removed, different routers and cables what more can you do to prove its not your kit?

There is obviously a problem and BT need to sort it. You should not be (have been) charged for these muppets to just waste your time.

AAISP will take a line fault on and resolve it within a month, otherwise you can leave at no cost. They wont take any of this [censored] from BT.

Its pot luck with engineers that come round some are great and will actually fix the problem, some not! It has taken more than 10 visits to fix my fault, it should have been done first time, pure laziness on the part of the engineers!

If you are not tied into a contract give AAISP a try, be careful of the daytime usage allowance though, it does not suit everyone!

I've got no idea what's happening at the moment and am feeling pretty ground down.

In reply to a post by GeeTee:

If it is an HR fault on the copper pair then moving to TalkTalk won't fix the problem..... they are still reliant on Openreach to fix faults like this.

This is what I thought, so I am pretty stuck then!

I am definitely considering moving ISPs but due to the limited options here and because of the fault, well...

I'd seen AAISP metioned before somewhere & checked them out, looked pretty good.

At least my contract is up with my present ISP (whom I've been very careful not to mention. They're not cheap either - which really grinds now) is up.

I just cant believe simple things haven't been checked. Things like the A-B wires from the pole to the rear of the NTE5, or terminations at the pole. And to say that water isn't a problem because it's a sealed unit seems a bit "hmm..."

Are there any ISPs out there who use two paper cups with a length of string between them?!!!

I think Pipex/Tiscali a laughing at me for leaving them!

Phill

In reply to a post by Flip74:

I've got no idea what's happening at the moment and am feeling pretty ground down.

In reply to a post by GeeTee:

If it is an HR fault on the copper pair then moving to TalkTalk won't fix the problem..... they are still reliant on Openreach to fix faults like this.

This is what I thought, so I am pretty stuck then!

Do what I did - email BT's chairman, Ian Livingston. That's what I did last Saturday, and I got a reply within half an hour, and now I have one of the Openreach managers on the case of my line. Mind you, 4 days later, and it's still faulty !

You can get Ian Livingston's email by Googling. If you're on Facebook, you might want to join the "I hate BT" group, which has all the email addresses for the senior managers on it.

The DP at the top of the pole "should" be sealed, it depends if the last engineer refitted it correctly. It is not a sealed unit, he just couldn't be bothered to check. It does take some time getting all the PPE equipment on (hard hat, high vis vest, harness) then get his latter off the van. Much easier to just report "right when tested" and charge you. Looks good on his stats too.

I will back you up, aaisp go all the way in the fight against BT, they in my experience always back you the customer up. They never pass on openreach charges and appeal them instead.

>>My ISP isn't being much help either now. They're saying as they didn't arrange Openreach to call, then it's nothing to do with them.

Sounds like you'll be getting a bill from your phone company to match the one from your ISP shortly.

Sounds like you'll be getting a bill from your phone company to match the one from your ISP shortly.

I suppose they can try, but as I have since replaced the ADSL cable again and swapped routers again to no change - How can they as it's looking more like a problem 'their side'?. I'm not responsible for the drop cable or any connections from the exchange.

I definitely think I've done all I can do now.

Also how can they charge for a service they didn't provide? I'm in the Electronics Servicing trade and can imagine what would happen if tried the same!

Another thing is, when I mentioned why the hell would I get them out without checking things out first and risk getting charged, the Openreach guy said "we don't charge" which wasn't what BT Support told me IF the problem was my doing. Plus I've not been asked to sign anything.

When I asked for a list of tests undertaken,I was told by my ISP that Openreach didn't give one to them. So in other words I have to assume that adequate testing was undertaken. This was after the first visit by the way.

My ISP didn't seem too bothered when Openreach first came and tried to blame the filter. All they said is that if Openreach did try to charge and the fault remained, then they could appeal. As of yet, I've not heard anything regarding the first visit.

If it were me as the engineer, I'd have checked the rear of the NTE5, the DP at the pole and take it from there. As a customer, I can not even check the state of wiring on the rear of the NTE5.

The engineer never came back by the way. No calls, nothing.

Edited by deleted (Thu 23-Jul-09 20:46:24)

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

>>My ISP isn't being much help either now. They're saying as they didn't arrange Openreach to call, then it's nothing to do with them.

Sounds like you'll be getting a bill from your phone company to match the one from your ISP shortly.

Typical BT attitude. I wonder if you'll be so smug when you're standing in the dole queue ?

In reply to a post by GeeTee:

I think the main reason engineers seem reluctant to do this is because it is time consuming. They need to travel back to the exchange first to setup one part of the hawk, then tramp back to the customer premises to run the test.

Not any more......there is now a remote unit emulator that can be switched on by mobile.

Clearly doesn't have a clue how ADSL works. The ADSL signal is only present on the line when the modem initiates a connection so the noise will go away when the modem is disconnected !!.

Well,

On the 28th July, things started to look up.

B.T. said the fault was escalated within the faults department and they should be better informed within 48 hours.

By the 29th, the noise through the handset had improved (was still there but nowhere as near as bad as it was) and sync had increased from 160 kbps to 4800 kbps. Throughput was around 3.5 Mbps.

I left the DG834G running along with Router Stats on the eeePC. I started a new session of Router Stats each morning to bream the results into smaller chunks.

Everything seemed OK until yesterday when sync was lost again. Booo!

Router Stats results:

Started: Sat 01 Aug 2009 10:58

10:58:31 Rx-Noise= 11 Rx-Sync= 4800
10:58:51 Rx-Noise= 11 Rx-Sync= 4800
10:59:11 Rx-Noise= 11 Rx-Sync= 4800
10:59:31 Rx-Noise= 11 Rx-Sync= 4800
10:59:51 Rx-Noise= 10 Rx-Sync= 4800

15:41:11 Rx-Noise= 3 Rx-Sync= 4800
15:41:31 Rx-Noise= 2 Rx-Sync= 4800
15:41:51 Rx-Noise= 2 Rx-Sync= 4800
15:42:11 Rx-Noise= 1 Rx-Sync= 4800
15:42:31 Rx-Noise= 1 Rx-Sync= 4800

15:42:51 Rx-Noise= 21474836 Rx-Sync= 0
15:43:11 Rx-Noise= 0 Rx-Sync= 0

15:43:31 Rx-Noise= 13 Rx-Sync= 2528
15:43:51 Rx-Noise= 15 Rx-Sync= 2528
15:44:11 Rx-Noise= 15 Rx-Sync= 2528
15:44:31 Rx-Noise= 15 Rx-Sync= 2528
15:44:51 Rx-Noise= 14 Rx-Sync= 2528

16:05:11 Rx-Noise= 3 Rx-Sync= 2528
16:05:31 Rx-Noise= 3 Rx-Sync= 2528
16:05:51 Rx-Noise= 3 Rx-Sync= 2528
16:06:11 Rx-Noise= 1 Rx-Sync= 2528
16:06:31 Rx-Noise= 0 Rx-Sync= 2528

16:06:51 Rx-Noise= 0 Rx-Sync= 0

16:07:11 Rx-Noise= 6 Rx-Sync= 160
16:07:31 Rx-Noise= 9 Rx-Sync= 160
16:07:51 Rx-Noise= 9 Rx-Sync= 160
16:08:11 Rx-Noise= 9 Rx-Sync= 160
16:08:31 Rx-Noise= 9 Rx-Sync= 160

(Results have been snipped)

So, it went from 4800 kbps from the 29th July, lost sync at 15:42:51 on the 1st. Resynced at 2528 kbps 15:43:31, lost sync again at 16:06:51 then 20 seconds later resynced at 160 kbps.

I'd bought a new Router last week (Wireless N) but didn't want to test it whilst things were looking OK. Plus I know I need up to 5 days for my profile to improve. If I was lucky enough to get up to 5 days sync that is!

But after the problems yesterday, I thought I'd give it a go.New Router, new cable, new filter - No change!

The noise in the handset is as bad as ever and the router is losing sync.

So I think it is safe to say it is definitely not my side of the Demarcation Point.

Nobody came here to check connection at the NTE5 or at the pole. No sign of the infamous HAWK either. Have no clue as to what they'd supposed to have done either.

No checks for HR Dis or water ingress.

Looks like it's going to be an email /letter to Ian Livingston then!

Phill

Email Ian Livingston. Keep it polite, brief, and just mention the basic facts, i.e. "my line has been unusable for broadband for nn days, despite x engineer visits". He will then delegate to a manager in BTO. When I emailed him, I was surprised to get an email back within half an hour (on a Saturday!) and another email from an Openreach Complaints Manager within an hour. Despite all this, my BB line with Zen has still been broken for almost a month.

I've had a reply from B.T. Support this afternoon:

Hi,

Thank you for the update. I am sorry to hear that the fault has reappeared. I have checked you account and can see that the faults team is still looking into this. I can see that they have tried to call you but have been unsuccessful.

This is a tricky fault to get to the bottom of, because you only have you line rental with BT Retail we can only check the telephone side of thing and so far all we have tested seem okay and this is once again pointing to the broadband side of thing. With you getting new equipment this rules out this as a possible cause. but because your Broadband is not provided by BT retail we can not check the broadband side of things.

I think it might be worth your while in raising another fault with your broadband provider as they can then arrange to once again have your broadband tested from there end.

I also ask that you included a daytime contact number we can reach you on as the faults team do need to speak to you in person so that they can get you to carry out fault diagnostics your end.

Thanks

BT Support

This is really driving me nuts now! Am I supposed to wait by the telephone all day in order to do more tests that prove it isn't my gear?!!!

Can somebody confirm whose responsibility this should be; either my ISP (who have already said that if there's any crackle on the line without the router connected, it's nothing to do with them) or B.T.?

As there has been intermittent crackle (weather related?) with a phone direct in the test socket, I'd have thought it was B.T.

Who deals with tie pair, circuit board in the exchange and everything in-between them and I?

Phill.

In reply to a post by zebedeee:

Email Ian Livingston. Keep it polite, brief, and just mention the basic facts, i.e. "my line has been unusable for broadband for nn days, despite x engineer visits". He will then delegate to a manager in BTO. When I emailed him, I was surprised to get an email back within half an hour (on a Saturday!) and another email from an Openreach Complaints Manager within an hour. Despite all this, my BB line with Zen has still been broken for almost a month.

I've drafted an email, but am finding it difficult to keep it brief without explaining what's been happening.

Hope you get your problem sorted soon too!

Phill

If crackly when no ADSL kit plugged into line (including filters) then report as a fault to your voice line rental provider

Hi,

That's the problem. The line is really quite clear when a phone is connected by itself in the test socket.

I have observed noise, but would say it's intermittent and nowhere near as bad as when the ADSL equipment is added into the mix.

Whether the noise is weather related (phone direct in test socket that is), I don't know.

Checks made by B.T. both remotely and with the handset used by the Engineer have passed the line as being OK.

B.T. blame I.S.P. who blame B.T.

I'm pretty much being passed from pillar to post.

All I do know, is that I have checked all that I can check and swapped all that I can swap.

I'd also presumed that if the problem was down to a H.R. Dis; water ingress or a dodgy termination, then fixing that would clear any non ADSL noise as well as having the knock on effect of improving my ADSL? Two birds one stone!

Phill

If it is an HR Dis fault, then it should be picked up by a Copper Line Test as part of the Fault Diagnostics suite your ISP will use. I had one just a few weeks ago where a clear HR Dis fault was identified by that tool.

I would imagine that the test isn't finding a fault which is why they're referring you back to your voice provider.

In reply to a post by namesco:

f it is an HR Dis fault, then it should be picked up by a Copper Line Test as part of the Fault Diagnostics suite your ISP will use. I had one just a few weeks ago where a clear HR Dis fault was identified by that tool.

I would imagine that the test isn't finding a fault which is why they're referring you back to your voice provider.

Hi,

There's been no mention of any tests carried out by the ISP. I just keep getting the usual "check filters etc." The latest being "check your firmware", which I didn't think would cause the symptoms I'm having anyway.

Phill

I re-read your posts trying to see who your ISP were!

I see you mention:
"...my present ISP (whom I've been very careful not to mention.."


Why are you being careful not to mention them???

In reply to a post by b4dger:

I re-read your posts trying to see who your ISP were!

I see you mention:
"...my present ISP (whom I've been very careful not to mention.."


Why are you being careful not to mention them???

I didn't want to tread on toes.

I'm pretty surprised, as they are reported to have excellent customer service - so I have wondered if it was just me!

Phill

In reply to a post by Flip74:

Can somebody confirm whose responsibility this should be; either my ISP (who have already said that if there's any crackle on the line without the router connected, it's nothing to do with them) or B.T.?

If there's a crackle on the line with the router disconnected, then it's the responsibility of BT. However, many cable faults will cause problems to both voice and BB, and most ISP's relish the thought of passing the buck if the fault affects voice only.

I thought that if the problem is due to a H.R. Dis, corrosion or fatigue of the cable somewhere and had the first engineer brought the HAWK and found a fault at the D.P at the pole for simplicity, and fix it, this would've cleared any crackle at all on the voice side as well as the ADSL problems.

As the line tests via B.T. and Engineer show no fault for voice, I can't really argue with them. So we're back at Broadband.

There just seems to be a very blurred line between a Broadband fault and a Voice fault in this case.

Man, without tempting fate (fingers crossed just in case!) why couldn't it have been a simple fault or a straightforward one at least.

I get the impression from B.T. that they are implying if I was with them for my internet, this would have been sorted by now. From what I've read though, I doubt it somehow!

If someone could provide in layman's terms what a H.R. Dis is and its symptoms are, that would be great. I've tried & failed!

Phill.

But it sounds like you are moving providers anyway?

Sometimes naming names helps to focus minds!

If you aren't having any luck with your provider perhaps you should start 'stamping on toes'

In simple terms, based on experience. If your voice line is noisy when your broadband modem is connected, then the problem is the responsibility of the ISP. Apart from the fact that it makes perfect sense, Openreach engineers do not have the ability to carry out broadband diagnostics ( DSL status, Woosh tests etc) they have to call BT wholesale to get these done. So if you have an engineer out on behalf of your voice line provider, they are most likely not going to be of much help, especially with a somewhat illusive fault such as this.

I think that we have gone past the point where your own equipment could be considered as being at fault. From what I have read, I cannot be sure how much involvement your ISP ave had so far, but one thing I would strongly advise you to do is request a detailed list of all the engineering work which has been carried out so far on your line. Then ask for a no BS assessment from your ISP as to what work has NOT been carried out so far. They will have seen alot of faults in their time, and will most likely know all of the procedures which BT use. If you are not happy with the answer, then take your case higher within the ISP.

With faults such as these, there is often quite alot of buck passing, which is instigated purely by the nature of the fault, which is sitting rather inconveniently on the boundary of responsibility of the ISP and voice line provider.

And I agree with the last post on this thread, why not let us know who the ISP is? I personally am not one for bashing companies in public, but know for a fact that alot of ISP employees frequent these forums, it might lead to a helping hand, but of course, it is your choice

In reply to a post by Flip74:

I thought that if the problem is due to a H.R. Dis, corrosion or fatigue of the cable somewhere and had the first engineer brought the HAWK and found a fault at the D.P at the pole for simplicity, and fix it, this would've cleared any crackle at all on the voice side as well as the ADSL problems.

As the line tests via B.T. and Engineer show no fault for voice, I can't really argue with them. So we're back at Broadband.

There just seems to be a very blurred line between a Broadband fault and a Voice fault in this case.

Man, without tempting fate (fingers crossed just in case!) why couldn't it have been a simple fault or a straightforward one at least.

I get the impression from B.T. that they are implying if I was with them for my internet, this would have been sorted by now. From what I've read though, I doubt it somehow!

If someone could provide in layman's terms what a H.R. Dis is and its symptoms are, that would be great. I've tried & failed!

Phill.

HR Dis is a high-resistance cable joint, usually caused by corrosion of the wires, the connectors, or both. This sort of joint often acts like a radio detector, and since ADSL is basically a bunch of radio signals, the joint demodulates them, which results in noises or clicks when ADSL is in use.

It's a lottery as to how many engineers you'll need to get this problem fixed, because the abilities of the Openreach engineers varies so much, and these days we have the added problem of apathy within the ranks because of threatened redundancies and frozen pay deals.

Hi,

Thanks for the excellent post.

The first engineer that came out was arranged by the ISP. So I gather this was B.T. Wholesale.

He was the one who condemned my filter without trying any of the others I'd left out, or swapping my router over.

I'd made extensive notes for him, mentioning H.R. Dis along with a list of stats.

He was here for around half an hour with his laptop no HAWK.

I asked my ISP for a list of tests carried out by the engineer, and all they told me that all that was provided was the following:

Engineer notes suggest that he found line
noisy due tocustomers adsl faceplate which was not filtering properly.Line was working Ok and circuit was insync with
engineers filter.

Cop out! No list of tests nothing.

The second engineer visit was arranged by B.T. Support to whom I mentioned about the Broadband issues.

This one I presume was a B.T. Retail engineer, but he deemed my router faulty after his extensive unplugging and re plugging in of the Router showed that there was no noise when no router was present! So it must be the Router, until I swapped it over in front of him for another one!

It still comes down, I think anyway, to the first guy not carrying out adequate checks.

I've been in touch with my ISP again. Now to see how fast they are!

Phill

I've just had an email from my ISP. Boy am I annoyed now:

I'm afraid I have some bad news from the previous engineer visit, back in early July. BT have charged us for it as we expected, so I'll need to arrange to get that charge from you (sorry!).

This is the reason BT want to charge for the visit:

"[06-07-2009 20:16:42] 15 - Engineer notes suggest that he found line
noisy due tocustomers adsl faceplate which was not filtering properly.Line
was working Ok and circuit was insync with engineers filter."

Do you want to give me a call with the payment?

Great eh!

Now what? MAC time still with a line fault. I am pretty screwed unless I go with AAISP.

Surely Fast should be appealing against the charge from B.T. or whoever it is.

Phill

I emailed them back with the following:

I take it then that a HAWK, even though one wasn't brought here, was
used to check for a H.R.Dis then was it? And that someone checked the
DP at the pole?

I would still like a copy of the Engineers report listing these tests in full.

I don't think "... line was working Ok and circuit was insync with
engineers filter" is good enough. All mine will sync, maintaining sync
is another matter. It usually takes more than the half hour the
engineer hung around for, for sync to be lost.

I have plotted stats using router stats, whose results I can provide
if required.

If it wasn't a B.T. fault and it's not my gears fault, then whose is it?

I have been recommended to migrate to Andrews & Arnold Ltd (aaisp.net)
as they will endeavour to sort line faults out within a month. So, I
think this is my only option. Please could you issue a MAC?

I presume that if after paying yourselves, a fault is found with my
line, I will be entitled to a full refund?

I am still going to write to the CEO of B.T. because this has really
dragged on for too long.

and have had the following reply:

The details I've copied are all the BT give us I'm afraid - those are the full engineer notes from the visit. They haven't shared beyond that what tests were done, and rarely do.

AAISP are a very good ISP, and will offer a refund for that month if they can't get you connected - read the terms as there are a few clauses, but it seems fair and if they can't fix it, you can migrate away.

BT wouldn't confirm that, but if a BT fault is found on the broadband side (which is what the broadband engineer looked for) then I'd be happy to present a case back to them to ask for the money back, as long as you could get the full evidence from AAISP.

How do you want to make the payment? Do you want to give me a call to sort it, and we can then get a MAC issued.

I'm sorry you are deciding to leave, but I'm afraid we can't absorb the £150 charge when BT rule it won't be waived, as that is over 3 years profit from your broadband account alone to us.

They don't seem too bothered about keeping my custom do they?!

What is the best way to deal with this? Pay up?

I really thought they'd have persevered with B.T.

And, I thought that a MAC should be issued irregradless of any outstanding charges. Almost looks like I have to pay to get one.

I'm also being made out to be a liar somehow.

Phill

After saying I was taking advice regarding the matter and saying I'd send a cheque along with a letter if need be, I am now being told the following:

I'm afraid payment would need to be made on a card (credit or debit), but you're welcome to send a letter (although an e-mail is quicker) if you have specific points to make. We can't accept cheque payments due to the time delay - we have to pay BT immediately, so need to get that back in as soon as possible.

Is this right? I'm supposed to give my card details over the phone, with no letter/invoice? Not very professional.

This isn't looking good.

Wonder what tool them so long to mention they'd received the bill?

You might as well make the payment by CC and get a MAC then migrate to AAISP.

You can dispute the charge directly with BT by emailing Ian Livingstone.

I don't know why you took so long to identify your ISP....

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I don't know why you took so long to identify your ISP....

I just wanted to give them a chance.

I still think paying up over the phone is a bit much. I'll have no receipt or anything.

If you pay by CC it will be on your statement (and after you've migrated you can get it back from the credit card company)

You're right. Under the Migration Code Of Practice, an ISP is NOT entitled to withhold a MAC request because of any outstanding balance.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/migration/st...

1.14 This means that broadband service providers who are losing a customer will be
required to provide MACs on request in most cases. They will not be able to withhold
MACs where the customer owes them money (�debt blocking�) or charge for MACs.


John.

If you are going to another provider, ask for a MAC and tell them to post you an invoice. They are not permitted under Ofcom rules to withold a mac due to billing issues.

IIRC Fast are a reseller and probably don't have any interaction with BT or Openreach's systems at all.

Fast appear to be a member of CISAS and I would be looking there for advice.

I would expect you are going to get another bill from your voice provider shortly for their visit.

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

IIRC Fast are a reseller and probably don't have any interaction with BT or Openreach's systems at all.

You sure? They are part of the Dark group

We are seeking to acquire profit or loss making Internet and IT companies.

So am I right in thinking that I am entitled to an invoice regarding the billing? I'd prefer to have in writing any charges and what for. It's also not giving me any time to seek advice either.

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

IIRC Fast are a reseller and probably don't have any interaction with BT or Openreach's systems at all

I'm sorry to be a bit thick, but what does this mean?

edit:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

You sure? They are part of the Dark group

Yes, they are part of the Dark group.

They are part of CISAS. I'd never heard of them before you mentioned!

I'll try and see what an email to Ian Livingston will achieve.

Cheers,

Phill

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Aug-09 18:13:14)

>>So am I right in thinking that I am entitled to an invoice regarding the billing? I'd prefer to have in writing any charges and what for. It's also not giving me any time to seek advice either.

I don't pay anything without an invoice. In any case, the billing issues are completely separate to the issuing of a MAC. The MAC can't be held to ransom, it must be provided in Ofcom timescales.

>>I'm sorry to be a bit thick, but what does this mean?

Resellers either take a referral and pass the business to A.N.Other provider. Or they buy capacity off of A.N.Other provider. That Fast and Dark have no listing on this forum is a strong indication that they are a reseller.

>>They are part of CISAS. I'd never heard of them before you mentioned!

Providers, even systemless resellers must belong to an Ofcom Aprroved Dispute Resolution Service. Ofcom do not get involved in disputes, they are there simply to promote competition and look at trends etc. The ADR's are there to resolve disputes.

You need to come to a decision.

Either you persist with your broadband provider, dispute the charges as the circuit is still faulty and suggest they get with it and fix it utilising the ADR if you come to a deadlock.

Or you move provider and hope the new one will be better at managing faults. Whilst at the same time disputing the previous ones charges.

I would probably do the former.

Of course there is always the possibility that the fault will eventually be found with your kit in which case charges will be justified.

Thank you for taking the time to post and for the info.

I would prefer that an invoice be issued and not be pushed in to making payment over the phone.

I'm just anticipating being harassed for payment and/or losing what little connectivity I've got now. It's not like I've refused to pay, just asked for a more convenient option.

That Fast and Dark have no listing on this forum is a strong indication that they are a reseller.

I don't think they've got any listings on any forum. Which is a bit of a pain.

It really does rile me that I had already checked things like filters, cables routers before contacting them. Buying new ones made no difference either.

Phill

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Aug-09 18:50:01)

In reply to a post by Flip74:

I don't think they've got any listings on any forum. Which is a bit of a pain.

Why did you sign up with them?

personally I wouldnt pay. The fault remains so you paying for work that has not been done.

If their diagnosis is correct ask them to supply a new filter and if that fixes you will pay the bill. Of course it wont be fixed so you then proven the openreach diagnosis is wrong. Contact trading standards if you worried about repurcussions, but if it went legal you would win due to lack of a signed receipt for work.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Why did you sign up with them?

Good reviews at DSL Zone.

Trading Standards aren't going to fix anyone's broadband!

The Op needs to persist with his broadband provider or migrate and start again.

I am not sure if there is a reported fault out there to fix at the moment as it would appear we are now into a billing dispute and a migration request.

I would dispute the charges, raise another fault and insist the provider gets with their wholesaler to manage the fault and we all live happily ever after.

If there is no joy after 8 weeks, it's off to the ADR.

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Aug-09 19:32:58)

And the bill is between the OP and ISP. The ISP appear to have accepted Openreachs explanation and are trying to recover costs.

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

I would dispute the charges, raise another fault and insist the provider gets with their wholesaler to manage the fault and we all live happily ever after.

I agree. It'd be easier to stay with them as I'm pretty cautious after Pipex/Tiscali, as well as any long term contracts.

Plus there's the limited choice of who is available to migrate to.

In the meantime, I've been running more checks with Router Stats.

With the phone off the hook and using the speakerphone to monitor the noise, the router will sync at ~2.5 Mbps.

After the handset is replaced, Rx noise starts declining at which point, <0 dB, sync is lost.

Sync will re-establish but at 160 kbps.

If the phone is left on the hook whilst the router is connected, sync is on average 160 kbps.

This happens whatever filter, cable or router is used.

Phill

And if you must use an ISP whose company address is probably,

Behind the hot water pipe,
Gentlemans Wash Room ,
Euston Station.

can you wonder that they would rather you paid up and took your custom elsewhere?

In reply to a post by systemx:

And if you must use an ISP whose company address is probably,

Behind the hot water pipe,
Gentlemans Wash Room ,
Euston Station.

can you wonder that they would rather you paid up and took your custom elsewhere?

* Registered Office: Dark Group Ltd
Network House
10 Erles Road
Liphook
Hampshire
GU30 7BW
United Kingdom
* Company Number: 3766500
* VAT Number: GB 744 6780 04
* DPA Number: Z9446811
* FSA Firm Number: 471643

no but they will assist in getting that bill waived.

He should of course also get a mac and join someone like aaisp who know how to deal with BT wholesale.

BT are a law unto themselves..... the last time an engineer visited (our 6th on this line since February), he replaced my XTE2005 faceplate, and replaced it with a BT Openreach faceplate, and then walked out with my property in his tool box !

That's theft. Should I send BT an invoice for it ?

Edited by deleted (Thu 06-Aug-09 16:58:52)

In reply to a post by zebedeee:

That's theft. Should I send BT an invoice for it ?

Yes, send it straight away.

In reply to a post by zebedeee:

he replaced my XTE2005 faceplate, and replaced it with a BT Openreach faceplate

You've helped clear something up for me here. When I mentioned to Fast why didn't the Engineer swap over the XTE2005 for an Openreach one if mine was faulty, I was told:

The face plate itself isn't BT's responsibility so they'd never replace that, they only provide service to the "test" socket.

By faceplate he means XTE2005.

I think the Engineer took your XT2005 away to stop you from being able to compare it against his 'all bells and whistles' one! i.e. there was probably nothing wrong with yours. No evidence though!

I had a phone call yesterday morning from somebody at B.T. Complaints regarding Openreach's "Tests/non Tests" and the continuation of the fault.

She told me she didn't think it sound like the problem was a HR Dis as it didn't match what she had in front of her "Computer says no!" and isn't ready to advance with that yet.

This is despite me emailing her posts from Openreach Engineer's describing the symptoms I've got.

But, could I check the test socket behind the front panel of the NTE5. Arrrrgggghhhhh!!!!11111!! how many more times???!!!!

She said she can arrange another Engineers visit. Ooooh another £172 for them?

Phill

As far as I am aware it is possible for HR faults to not be picked up on remote tests some are only possible to be found by manual engineer tests. You seem to be hitting a brick wall with BT as they refuse to overule what the computer says. Keep persisting dont worry about any charges they throw at you, I still say its up to them to proof your end is the fault.

In reply to a post by lodge:

In reply to a post by zebedeee:

That's theft. Should I send BT an invoice for it ?

Yes, send it straight away.

With a £144+VAT handling charge ?

Yes, it's the principle that's important here.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

As far as I am aware it is possible for HR faults to not be picked up on remote tests some are only possible to be found by manual engineer tests. You seem to be hitting a brick wall with BT as they refuse to overule what the computer says. Keep persisting dont worry about any charges they throw at you, I still say its up to them to proof your end is the fault.

Every single person that I spoke to at BT about my elusive line problems warned about the £144+VAT charge, from their customer service staff to the Openreach blokes. Maybe this is BT's way of lightening the load ? Scare off those of a low income, and nervous disposition ?

In reply to a post by zebedeee:

Every single person that I spoke to at BT about my elusive line problems warned about the £144+VAT charge, from their customer service staff to the Openreach blokes. Maybe this is BT's way of lightening the load ? Scare off those of a low income, and nervous disposition ?

Very good point

I know for one, that I'm put off having an Engineer to come in if they're not willing to check things their side. I already face around £345 for 'visits' that have achieved nowt as they can't be bothered to check up the pole or wherever.

£165.60 is an awful lot of money to be told "it's your fault! La la la, we're not listening!!!"

Regarding the H.R. Dis or whatever ot may be, if the fault is at the pole (or anywhere after the exchange) am I right in thinking that this would be up to B.T. (or part of) to fix? Not the ISP?

I'm just likening the infrastructure to a Railway service.

You can have the fastest bullet train available (ADSL) but if the tracks (Telephone line) are in poor condition, then the train is restricted for speed and unable to achieve its full potential?

Somebody has to maintain the tracks, in this case line. Might be simple, but I like it!

Phill

Edited by deleted (Sat 08-Aug-09 13:10:41)

In reply to a post by zebedeee:

Every single person that I spoke to at BT about my elusive line problems warned about the £144+VAT charge, from their customer service staff to the Openreach blokes. Maybe this is BT's way of lightening the load ? Scare off those of a low income, and nervous disposition ?

I think you are absolutely right. My daughter has a fault on her line which has existed for a month. Her line rental is with Sky who have given her the £144 + VAT story if the fault turns out to be her internal wiring. The consequence is that she is scared to get the line fixed because she can't afford the charge.

If you ring the number, it is permanently engaged. How can that be anything but a BT line fault?

>>If you ring the number, it is permanently engaged.

Odds on favourite for being inside so Sky are right to warn of charges.

Personally was charged over £200 in my case for a voice fault. Followed all the correct procedures, but as quite often happens the fault wasn't present when the engineer came and was put down to faulty filters. Said filters since tested on another connection and work fine.
Fault is in the wiring before the test socket i.e. BT's responsibility and I'm due my 2nd SFI visit Monday to hopefully get it sorted. BE explicitly asked for cable joints to be checked when the LL5 task was raised for the 1st visit and the engineer refused to go anywhere near any cables.

I did complain and got it refunded as a "goodwill gesture", but still don't have my problem fixed - well yet anyway

And a 2 hour tme slot for an SFI visit is just ridiculous

If you don't already, you decent engineers out there should give the management a good sharp kick every now and then

Edited by nredwood (Sat 08-Aug-09 19:47:20)

bang on the money, I been saying it myself few months back when this was a heated discussion on the entanet section.

we have SFI charges now been very common plus engineers falsely diagnosing wiring/router faults and then bingo openreach come out claiming both the following....

1 - faults are been reduced.
2 - most faults are due to home wiring.

Taking the heat of BT's ancient network of course and media sites such as this site believe them.

http://www.dslzoneuk.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=14325...

instead of doing the right thing, BT have turned the situation on its head and are now making money off faults it seems or at least trying to.

Edited by Chrysalis (Sun 09-Aug-09 04:59:33)

After carrying out more (what is seeming more and more pointless) tests running Router Stats whilst using different filters, I noticed there was now a crackle present with just a telephone connected in to the 'Test' socket on the NTE5.

After getting in touch with B.T. Support again;and basically ignoring the crackle bit, I decided to email Ian Livingston regarding the matter.

And got the following reply:

It is not correct for the ISP to blame things on BT wholesale. It is them that you pay and they should manage it on your behalf.

I will ask our service team to look into the fault. If it is PSTN and we are your provider, we will sort it. If not, I expect that we will ask you to go back to your service provider to coordinate. They have industry standard escalation processes if they want to use them.

eh? I thought B.T. Wholesale provided the backbone for the ISP to work? What's the bet they wont find anything wrong again?! Another charge too?

Have also been in touch with Trading Standards who say that I shouldn't have to pay Fast or B.T. for the Engineer visits as it achieved nothing.

After all, everything has been replaced my end. Routers, filters and cables.

If only somebody would've made physical checks of the D.P. at the pole and at the property.

God this is getting me down. Never thought I'd say this, but I wish I'd have stayed with Pipex/Tiscali (but then again, if this fault is due to wires...)

I also think I'm getting confused with all this B.T. Openreach, B.T. Wholesale and B.T. Retail business. I'd have thought that Ian Livingston is the C.E.O. of all of them and would've been able to sort out whose department this fault occurs under.

Whatever, it looks like B.T. in any guise, is never wrong.

Phill

Edited by deleted (Fri 14-Aug-09 15:18:33)

he ultimately is in charge of them all, others on here claim after they email him, he takes control of the situation and helps them get things resolved. So either you got him on a bad day or perhaps the others did something else.

try this, I am quoting izools on his dslzone posts, he has managed to get openreach to fix his line.

In reference to www.dslzoneuk.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=17105&start=15:

But yes, telling the engineer that the voice is distant, i.e. "Low Transmission" during twilight and night hours normally reaps some results

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

he ultimately is in charge of them all, others on here claim after they email him, he takes control of the situation and helps them get things resolved. So either you got him on a bad day or perhaps the others did something else..........

Not exactly. Ian Livingston will pass things on to a high-level manager, who will take control of the problem, but at the outset a lot will depend on how the initial email is worded. If you start the email openly attacking BT Wholesale, it's not the smartest move to get him onside.

Hi,

I managed (somehow) not to turn in to something from the Exorcist! Hopefully it's just a Friday afternoon thing!

I had to look at what he was referring to, and I gather it was this as it is the only time I mentioned B.T. Wholesale:

My ISP say that despite appeals to B.T. Wholesale regarding the
decision to charge, these have proved unsuccessful.

By the time of writing the email, I'd gotten quite confused about who's who and what's what in B.T. Fast only mentioned B.T., not what department in B.T.

The buck's been passed a lot, and I expect it's going to carry on being passed.

I never thought it'd be so difficult to get someone to check up the pole or even the NTE5 in general. As there is now a crackle on the line with no ADSL gear connected (phone in test socket), this is back to B.T.

No doubt these PSTN checks are not going to involve somebody's eyes gazing over any cable terminations.

I am actually really concerned about having another Engineer come out in case I am charged again. Even though I've changed everything my end, I keep thinking I've maybe missed something. Seems like easy money for somebody.

But surely after replacing Routers, cables and filters; and having the same results as before, then there's nothing more I can do?

Cheers,

Phill

to be honest I think his reply to flip74 wasn't smart. As the chief exec he is the face of the company, and his reply says to me he doesn't care about flip74's situation.

What is the point of only helping 'some' people, if he wants to avoid bad publicity then he should adopt the same attitude to every reply.

When I emailed james murdoch at sky about a set top box problem, I didn't get a reply back saying, tough luck you have to keep trying via the normal channels, instead his PA got hold of me over the phone and the situation was resolved sharpish.

Well, at least he's straight with you. You don't get any flannel off him. Not like Baron Sugar

I've had a telephone call from somebody at B.T. Complaints department this afternoon, asking me to contact her regarding the issue. I presume, this is in relation to my email to Ian Livingston?

Problem is, the line is pretty crappy and I'm really pretty crappy on the telephone and definitely don't feel like speaking to them today.

The alternatives are: Find an email contact for the person at B.T. Complaints or see what happens with the PSTN checks being arranged. Hopefully an Engineer will come out again, who knows!

That reply from Ian Livingston (if it really was him!) disregarded all the problems about the Openreach Engineers coming out and blaming my (mostly new) equipment. No apology for the not turning up Engineer.

He disregarded the crackly line and again is trying to pass the buck back to Fast, who no doubt (rightly so I believe) will say any crackle on the line with no ADSL equipment connected is nothing to do with them.

The quote from Mr. Livingston regarding B.T. Wholesale is all about the appeal regarding the charge for having the Engineer condemn the XTE2005.

As far as I'm concerned, both the Engineers who came out could have done more. The first one arranged by Fast, just seemed to concentrate on "No Sync at all" which wasn't the problem I'd reported.

Anyway, I think both of them could have examined any terminations or the state of the nigh on 25 year old cable etc.

Phill.

Edited by deleted (Sun 16-Aug-09 14:06:54)

If I were you, I'd phone them. I don't like talking on the phone either, but sometimes it's better. Don't talk like a techie, though. Don't worry, these people talk to hundreds of people during the course of a week. Just explain that you've had a lot of problems on your line which are still ongoing, and that you are considering taking it up with BBC Watchdog or a consumer programme on local radio, because you are getting nowhere with BT. They hate bad publicity. Jot down the important points and refer to them during the conversation, but don't read from them like a script, and most important of all...... stay calm !

Hi,

I've now had a reply from Mr. Livingston's P.A.

Thank you for your email to Ian Livingston on 14 August. I have contacted Openreach regarding this issue and they have advised that this would require the involvement of Wholesale via your Broadband service provider, who will have an escalation point within Wholesale. They would not respond to my enquiries regarding this as I do not represent your service provider.

I am sorry I have been unable to help further with this.

So back to blaming the ISP. Well, I guess that's what he's saying!

And there's me thinking Mr. Livingston was in charge of B.T. Wholesale/ Openreach / Retail or whatever they are today.

There's no mention of any goodwill gesture of withholding the £170 fine er I mean charge for having an Openreach Engineer condemn my brand new filter, until they are 100% sure it is my equipment. Which as now everything has been replaced (even the telephone), it's not going to be down to my wiring/ equipment.

No apology for Openreach not turning up for the first arranged visit.

Looks like I'm still expected to pay Fast so they can pay B.T. even though Trading Standards say no!

I asked Fast, what if another Openreach Engineer came out and found a line fault after I'd paid the £170. I was told they'd help me get a refund off B.T. Whoever. Surely as I'm not a customer of B.T. this refund should be from Fast?

Arrggghhhh!

Phill

Edited by deleted (Mon 17-Aug-09 17:45:52)

do what trading standards say, you may end up having to leave fast of course since I expect they will treat it as arrears and could suspend your account if they not willing to appeal it on your behalf.

In reply to a post by Flip74:

I've now had a reply from Mr. Livingston's P.A.

Check your PM box.

After emailing a reply to the Assistant to the Chairman & Chief Executive, asking him basically why Openreach couldn't have done better checks etc I received a reply from another Assistant to the Chairman & Chief Executive who said:

Please be assured that I will own this matter through to a complete and satisfactory conclusion as your case handler and single point of contact and welcome the opportunity to discuss your complaint with you.

The next day, I received an email from the High Level Complaints department with the following:

I am emailing to advise that i have sent an offline request to BT Openreach asking them to carry out an end to end check of your line due to the problems you have been having. Due to the fact that we only have one fault report against your PSTN service they may well come back to us and ask that we raise another fault but I am hoping they will deal with it from the complaint we have logged on your account.

Which surprised me as I thought everything would be handled by my single point of contact!

A week went by after replying to my single point of contact and I'd still not heard anything.

So, I email my single point of contact again, who said:

I am sorry you have not received an update.

Although I will retain this issue until you complaint has been resolved
the Consumer Repair Team will deal with the issue regarding the repair
as I do not have technical knowledge regarding repair.

The problem you have reported has now been escalated to Openreach via
consumer repair team. I will urge and update you when I receive a
further update.

That was a week ago. Nothing since.

I've still been having the same problems with my line, been keeping records of results from Router Stats and nothing changed.

Put a phone in the test socket and got crackle. B.T. know about this, but don't seem too bothered again.

I bought a Speedtouch 585 v6 off eBay as I wanted to use DMT.

Yesterday, I set it up and got no sync. Lifted the telephone handset and got sync. Replace handset - no sync.

Disconnected the filter, put a phone in the test socket and crackle was still there.

Put another filter in, powered up the router and got sync at around 5 Meg. Hmm, I thought (well it wasn't exactly what I thought!).

Took out that filter and placed a telephone in the test socket again. No crackle, just what sounds like a hissing sound.

I thought I'd replace the previous filter, just in case, and this too synced at 5 Meg.

Replaced the 585 for my DG834G and again got 5 Meg!

What ever filter, router or cable I use around sync is around 5 Meg. Throughput, though is less than 160 kbps, which I doubt will improve due to the nature of the problem I've got.

I've had this symptom before, where sync improves. And the common factor is the improvement in weather. Since yesterday, it has been really dry and sunny.

I presume that in the next bout of rain & wind we get (outside that is!) the HR problem will arise again.

Just hope when this "end to end test" I'm supposed to be having involves actually examining my line, and takes in to consideration the weather/fault which I'd already told them about.

Phill

Ah Well,

I've been charged £99 plus V.A.T. for an Engineer who couldn't be bothered to check for a H.R. fault and who only stuck around for less than half an hour, waving the WAN lead around obviously not knowing what a H.R. fault is.

Back to Trading Standards I go.

Have had it confirmed by an Openreach Engineer on a forum that the fault is more than likely a H.R. Dis.

Edited by deleted (Tue 15-Sep-09 01:04:35)

Get on to the chairman's office, challenge the charges, and tell them that you are going to give this as much bad publicity as you can (Watchdog, Local radio, web page, web logs, Facebook, etc). BT hate the threat of bad publicity.

Hi zebedeee,

I've emailed the Assistant to the C.E.O. (the one who said she'd act as my single point of contact).

I've asked for an update, as an end to end test was supposed to be carried out, but the silence has been deafening!

I have also mentioned what Trading Standards advised me to do, which was to put in writing to B.T. regarding the issues and give them seven days to rectify the fault.

I have been told by an Engineer that what should be brought up is:

Swapping D (Distribution) side pair from your Green (PSP) cabinet to your house and the E (Exchange) side pair. After that comes a "Lift and Shift" to alter the wiring in the exchange.

Typically, as we haven't had rain for a few days, my IP Profile has improved:

Download speed achieved during the test was - 4441 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :5824 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 5000 Kbps

It's been like this since Sunday.

There was also a crackle present on the line, via a telephone in the test socket. Now there is a noticeable hiss present.

Got to wait for the rain now.

So, £99 plus VAT Call out Charge (as stated on my bill) gets you an Engineer:

who sticks around for < 30 minutes after blaming Customers equipment

who can't be bothered checking B.T.'s property,

and spends ~ 10 minutes sitting in the van (which was opposite the pole) whilst on his mobile.

God, I'm in the wrong trade. I can imagine where I'd have ended up if I'd tried the same with my Customers. i.e. Turn up at their house regarding a dead Television, decide I don't feel like taking the back off the set and leave them with a bill for £99 plus VAT callout and a fault still present.

I'd end up on Rogue Traders! As well as having enquiries from Trading Standards no doubt.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. 13 engineer visits in 3 months - fault still untraced. BT did a "lift and shift" yesterday - no change. The next thing they propose is a "cease and re-provide" - the problem with that is all the cabling round here dates back to the 1960's, so I'll go from one 40 year old cable to another 40 year old cable.

I run a small business too, and I trade on my reputation. If I treated my customers the way that BT treat theirs, I would be out of business within a month. But then, my customers have a choice - I don't.

Wouldn't you suffer from an outage with a cease & re-provide? I think that's what happened to me a couple of years ago after a line fault.

Took two weeks to get ADSL back and neither B.T. or Pipex admitted responsibility.

That's the thing with being in Business, you could have a lot of happy customers, but bad news travels fast and mud sticks.

What gets me regarding the Call Out charge, is exactly what have they done? They don't clock in when they arrive, you don't get a break down of work done and you don't get to sign the job off as satisfactory.

The other thing is, if one my repairs failed after I'd given the gear back, I'd be expected to complete the repair for no extra charge. It's what we called a Bounce-Back.

Yet with BT, every time you get an engineer back, it's almost like they are treating it as a totally new job rather than a Bounce Back. Thus you face another charge anywhere between £99 to £150 plus V.A.T.

Before I started my Business, I arranged a meeting with Trading Standards as I wanted to clear up both my Customer's and my own rights regarding a Guarantee period.

Even though some will advertise a 3 month Guarantee, I was told it's a grey area and really should be 12 months!

I wonder if there's anyone who can investigate the "Call Out Charge" , especially if the customer has taken all precautions necessary to rule out their own equipment?

In reply to a post by Flip74:

Wouldn't you suffer from an outage with a cease & re-provide? I think that's what happened to me a couple of years ago after a line fault.

Yes, but I have backup. Fortunately I run a business from home, so I have the Sky connection to fall back on. I also have an Orange Business Everywhere dongle, which I've had to use at least twice in the last week, when BT managed to disconnect both lines into my property !

In reply to a post by Flip74:

What gets me regarding the Call Out charge, is exactly what have they done? They don't clock in when they arrive, you don't get a break down of work done and you don't get to sign the job off as satisfactory.

Well as a business, how would any of your customers react, if you sent them an invoice with no matching order number ? Of course, if you refuse to pay, BT will threaten to cut you off, so they have you by the short and curlies, unless you're fortunate to have a competing company in the area.

In reply to a post by Flip74:

Yet with BT, every time you get an engineer back, it's almost like they are treating it as a totally new job rather than a Bounce Back. Thus you face another charge anywhere between £99 to £150 plus V.A.T.

Before I started my Business, I arranged a meeting with Trading Standards as I wanted to clear up both my Customer's and my own rights regarding a Guarantee period.

Even though some will advertise a 3 month Guarantee, I was told it's a grey area and really should be 12 months!

I wonder if there's anyone who can investigate the "Call Out Charge" , especially if the customer has taken all precautions necessary to rule out their own equipment?

Well, your contract is with the ISP, and as an ex-Pipex customer myself, all I can say is Good Luck ! I had to threaten to sue them, just to get my money back, after they carried on taking direct debits for 3 months after I migrated ! If you migrate, send them a letter recorded delivery, to say that you have migrated away. If you pay Pipex by credit card, change to DD before you migrate. At least you can dispute DD's and get an immediate refund.

Edited by deleted (Tue 15-Sep-09 13:15:54)

I actually left Pipex in April to migrate to Fast. Cost £50, as I'd been stealthily put on a shared LLU with Tiscali.

After having a fraudulent transaction on my Credit Card that I used to pay Pipex with, the Card was cancelled by the Bank. As it was impossible to update my account details on Pipex's site and the Bank not setting up continuous payments again, I ended up getting the "you have seven days to pay" letters.

Despite paying by cheque via Special Delivery, which showed it was delivered, they were still chasing me for money.

As a result, they owe me £54 which I have been waiting for since April. After putting in writing that they had 7 days to reply, they said they need 28 days.

After contacting them again last week asking where the refund is, they apologised and said they'll send a cheque out, but I'll have to wait up to 28 days again.

How are A&A by the way? I am really tempted to migrate myself.

cease and reprovide could well help, may well change the chipset you connected on the exchange and that can have a significant affect, not necessarily to synch speed but on stability yes.

yes, its a physical move to another dslam.

in my case I had a 'managed cease and reprovide' when you are recconected the same working day.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

cease and reprovide could well help, may well change the chipset you connected on the exchange and that can have a significant affect, not necessarily to synch speed but on stability yes.

Is that always the case? What's to say you wouldn't end up back on the same line card?

It's something I'm toying with having gotten nowhere with BT/Entanet but I really am loathed to spend out when it ain't my fault and no guarantees either! I'm on a piddly little exchange too..

In reply to a post by zebedeee:

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. 13 engineer visits in 3 months - fault still untraced. BT did a "lift and shift" yesterday - no change.

How can you be sure they really did do a lift and shift? Did the ISP confirm that the IDs changed? I was 'promised' a lift and shift and as soon as the engineer was out of sight they closed the fault without doing one

C.

In reply to a post by Flip74:

How are A&A by the way? I am really tempted to migrate myself.

Go for it, you wont regret it, before you do though check their usage limits as the daytime use is somewhat lower!

Im sure Shaun and co will enjoy beating BTW with their large sticks!

Your fault is obviously a line fault, the incompetant engineers who fail to do their job are a disgrace to the other engineers who try their damdest to resolve problems with the ageing and failing BT infrastructure.

Check the AAISP status pages for the ongoing sagas with BT faults and you will understand why you are in the position you are in now!

What impresses me with A&A is the way there are updates; such as their status page and blog page.

I gather from what I've read, that the customer can view tickets between A&A and B.T.?

And the sticks could have been useful with the issues I'm having. Wish I'd known about them when I migrated from Pipex.

I asked for a MAC from Fast on the 5th August, as well as mentioning my interest in A&A:

I have been recommended to migrate to Andrews & Arnold Ltd (aaisp.net)
as they will endeavour to sort line faults out within a month. So, I
think this is my only option. Please could you issue a MAC?

and got the following reply:

AAISP are a very good ISP, and will offer a refund for that month if they can't get you connected - read the terms as there are a few clauses, but it seems fair and if they can't fix it, you can migrate away.

BT wouldn't confirm that, but if a BT fault is found on the broadband side (which is what the broadband engineer looked for) then I'd be happy to present a case back to them to ask for the money back, as long as you could get the full evidence from AAISP.

How do you want to make the payment? Do you want to give me a call to sort it, and we can then get a MAC issued.

I'm sorry you are deciding to leave, but I'm afraid we can't absorb the £150 charge when BT rule it won't be waived, as that is over 3 years profit from your broadband account alone to us.

So in other words, I've got to pay £150 plus VAT to get my MAC; whilst still having a faulty line. Migrate to AAISP, get the fault sorted with full proof (which would be more than what I've got from Fast regarding what B.T. actually did do), get back in touch with Fast who will then try and get a refund from B.T. Surely any refunds should come from Fast to me? It should be they who gets the money from B.T. for the wrong diagnosis.

As I've been told on here, withholding a MAC is against section 1.14 of the OFCOM rules regarding Migration.

Plus, it doesn't seem to matter that I'll be out of pocket of around £172.50. I mean, I obviously can afford it - Not!

Everything I mentioned about a HR fault was ignored and no physical checks of my line were carried out.

Edited by deleted (Wed 16-Sep-09 16:27:25)

They cant withold the MAC for account issues.

Im sure others will advise the correct course of action for you to take.

Did you ever get an invoice?

Hi,

No they didn't give me an invoice. I asked for a break down of charges; indicating what checks were done and was told that none was provided by B.T. other than:

Engineer notes suggest that he found line
noisy due tocustomers adsl faceplate which was not filtering properly.Line
was working Ok and circuit was insync with engineers filter.

This was totally disregarding the fact that sync was / is intermittent and seems to be influenced by the weather.

I never said there was no sync at all.

I'd also mentioned that by the time I'd contacted Fast, all my equipment had been replaced and had made no difference.

I'm glad I've kept correspondence to email, as I've got proof of what was reported.

Even though the Engineer could hear the hiss with the ADSL present, he told me to pester B.T. Retail.

When I'd asked about them (Fast) appealing the charges with B.T. , I was told:

We appealed the charge (3 times) for you as soon as it came in, and after lengthy discussions they have ruled that the fault was not a BT fault and therefore they are charging for the visit which is £150 + vat.

and

According to BT they carried out all the correct checks, found the ADSL face plate was at fault, and advised you of that - that is all BT have said.

I used all the evidence and comments you gave me, but they have upheld the charge.

By correct checks, read "...connected laptop, modem and filter got some sync. Blamed customer's filter. Ignored noisy line and lower than usual sync rate and refit the 'faulty' filter. Ignore what customer says about HR Dis."

Edited by deleted (Wed 16-Sep-09 17:42:22)

In reply to a post by habile:

In reply to a post by zebedeee:

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. 13 engineer visits in 3 months - fault still untraced. BT did a "lift and shift" yesterday - no change.

How can you be sure they really did do a lift and shift? Did the ISP confirm that the IDs changed? I was 'promised' a lift and shift and as soon as the engineer was out of sight they closed the fault without doing one

C.

After another two engineers spending the day here, they now know where the fault is - on an underground cable that allegedly had been replaced three weeks ago ! Now it's just a case of whether BT will pay to replace it.

this is what I was told by shaun when I was an aaisp customer 2 years ago in 2007.

lift and shift, new port same card.

cease and reprovide, new card.

I had a managed cease and reprovide which meant I was disconnected and recconected the same day, otherwise I think a cease and reprovide means days of downtime.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

this is what I was told by shaun when I was an aaisp customer 2 years ago in 2007.

lift and shift, new port same card.

cease and reprovide, new card.

I had a managed cease and reprovide which meant I was disconnected and recconected the same day, otherwise I think a cease and reprovide means days of downtime.

Maybe I should go for a provide and cease then... then certainly I would hope that I don't end up on the same pair on the same card with the same splitter... should be physically impossible ;0)

As I'd not heard anything from B.T. for a while, I decided to give my point of contact at B.T. a bit more of a nudge.

I stated that the charges were unfair as per what Trading Standards and the C.A.B. said, as well as mentioning that Trading Standards had told me to put in to writing my dissatisfaction with B.T. , as well as giving them 7 days to sort everything out.

Later that day, I received an email with an apology, and also the 'Call out Charge' had been removed from my bill :thumbsup:

The next day I received a letter in the post from B.T. (not from my PoC) saying that as agreed (?) the charge of £99 was being credited to my account. "Hang on" I thought! "what about V.A.T?" meaning they still could make £14.85 for nothing.

Anyway, my bill was taken by DD, for the right amount.

Since last Sunday, my line has behaving OK. But typically there's been no real rain or wind.

My Stats at present using the DG834G are as follows:

Connection Speed: 4888 kbps

Line Attenuation: 38 dB

Noise Margin: 12 dB


A B.T. Speedtest gave the following:

Download speed achieved during the test was - 4582 Kbps

For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.

Additional Information:

Your DSL Connection Rate :5888 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)

IP Profile for your line is - 5000 Kbps


I've been monitoring the connection with Router Stats all week, and have noticed that Noise Margin dropped to 3 dB for a while befire going back to its usual 12 dB plus. Before the problems arose, the Noise Margin was at the 6 dB average.

In the email from my Point of Contact, she mentions:

Can you confirm if the engineer did attend recently and is the fault still outstanding. If this is the case I will need to contact Openreach again

No Engineer had visited, but how do I explain that even though things seem to have improved, the fault is likely to remain?

I mean, with a phone direct into the test socket, it's pretty clear. With a filter, router and a phone connected; there is a hissing present, akin to what was present before, but a bit quieter.

I don't want another Engineer coming out if they wont check B.T. property. I also don't want to say every-thing's great only for it to go again in the next bout of bad weather.

Thanks,

Phill

p.s. Is there any reason why my Connection Rate of 5888 Kbps has dropped from 8128 kbps since the fault? Though, the Throughput is around what I've always had prior to the event!

I notice as well that I'm on Interleaving now too.

You should be getting faster speeds from your line with those stats.

If BT are still offering a visit then get themback out.

You should have at least 7000 sync with 38dB Attenuation.

Hi,

In reply to a post by Philce:

You should be getting faster speeds from your line with those stats.

If BT are still offering a visit then get themback out.

You should have at least 7000 sync with 38dB Attenuation.

That's what I was thinking. Before the fault, I synced at 8128 kbps; but since have not achieved anything like that.

Stats at present are 38 dB Attenuation, ~ 10 - 12 dB SNRM.

I guess because I have been put on an interleaved connection (probably due to a lot of errors caused by the fault?) I should be syncing around 7616kbps.

Presently, I am at 6752 kbps and I gather I've been losing sync (I haven't checked Router Stats yet, but the change in Sync maybe a clue).

A B.T. Speedtest gave the following:

Download speed achieved during the test was - 3871 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :6752 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 5500 Kbps

As for B.T. I actually received an email from the Operations Manager for Openreach at my local exchange, which was totally out of the blue and said:

We would like to make an appointment to come and see you with regard to your issue. Can you please reply with a time and date ( next Tuesday/Wednesday if possible ) so that we can visit you to discuss your issue.

I wonder what they want to discuss? The fact that I've been waiting since June to get my fault sorted? or why they blamed me despite my having already eliminated my equipment as the cause before I contacted anybody?

I'm pretty cautious of having anyone else come out. I don't fancy another potential £100 plus call out charge, if northing's going to be achieved or if they are not willing to examine anything out of my control.

I wouldn't say my line is exactly clear either.The SNRM isn't constant on Router Stats and maybe this is why I'm unable to achieve the maximum sync rate?

And typically, we haven't had much rain meaning the HR symptoms are not as obvious.

Phill

Edited by deleted (Sun 04-Oct-09 14:55:38)

If BT initiate the visit, they won't charge. Take up their offer - you may actually get an Openreach bod who knows what he's doing - there are a few of those in the company.

also stop worrying about the charges, if they rack up they rack up. Just dont pay them.

and as has been said this visit is unlikely to have a charge.

In reply to a post by Flip74:

And typically, we haven't had much rain meaning the HR symptoms are not as obvious.

Spoke too soon!

Took a look at Router Stats this morning and there had been a loss of sync. Sync was re-established at ~ 3.5 Meg from the previous 6752 Kbps.

Picking up the telephone handset proved the noise was back, as well as causing the router to lose sync again. Whilst the phone was off the hook, SNRM never got above 1dB.

Leaving the phone off the hook, you could hear the router establishing a connection

Apparently, we have had a bit of rain and wind here earlier on.

I swapped filters from a brand new ADSL Nation XF-1e to a no name filter that came with the DG834 and got sync at ~ 6 Meg.

I then replaced the ADSL Nation XF-1e and powered up and got sync at 6848 kbps, Attenuation at 38 dB and SNRM at 12 dB. Also no noise through the handset!???

By then though, there was no rain/wind either.

One thing I've wondered about, is whether my NTE-5 is faulty? I know that this was not checked by Openreach, even though we'd mentioned about my Dial Up modem being taken out during a thunder storm.

I don't think unplugging/plugging filters is going to help it much if it is indeed faulty.

edit: Just done a B.T. Speedtest which is a bit disappointing:

Download speed achieved during the test was - 2803 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :6848 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 3000 Kbps

In reply to a post by zebedee:

If BT initiate the visit, they won't charge. Take up their offer - you may actually get an Openreach bod who knows what he's doing - there are a few of those in the company.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

also stop worrying about the charges, if they rack up they rack up. Just dont pay them.

and as has been said this visit is unlikely to have a charge.

I know it's a good idea for them to come out, it's just that I am not feeling too confident about getting this sorted.

I'm going to have to get back in touch with the guy from Openreach, as he doesn't actually mention Openreach coming out to fix the fault.

I'm also bothered about the fact that the fault, symptoms at least, are intermittent. How far are they willing to search for the cause without blaming me again?

Phill

I don't know if I'm clutching at straws, but I thought I'd connect the router direct in to the test socket with no filter (in a hope that this may prove something?!)

Anyway, I've now got the following stats:

Connection: 6,816 kbps
Attenuation: 37 dB
SNRM: 12.5 dB

A TBB Speedtest (as 3 hours hasn't passed for the B.T. one) gave the following:

Speed Down: 1183.12 Kbps ( 1.2 Mbps )
Speed Up: 375.74 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )

I'm going to leave the router set up like this for a few days to monitor what happens.

If BT are offering to come out I'd take up the offer ASAP.

They should have enough data to know whats happening.

A E&D side swap should sort this out.

In reply to a post by Philce:

If BT are offering to come out I'd take up the offer ASAP.

They should have enough data to know whats happening.

A E&D side swap should sort this out.

I agree. This is a prime example of how BT's bully-boy tactics make people afraid to complain. Don't fall for the BS - get BT back in and get them to supply the level of service that you are paying for !

Hi,

I agree that the ideal thing is to take B.T. up on the offer, but at the same time I don't think they've got my best interests at heart.

I've probably got a few backs up by complaining, but why the hell should they get away with it?

I also feel like I'll have to justify myself as I presume the 'meeting' will be with management?

I'm still waiting for an apology too.

How many other Businesses could have a callout charge set so high, stay for less than half an hour and carry out the checks the customer had already done before calling someone out?

As well as leaving the fault obviously present?

I know I couldn't have gotten away with it! I could have raked it in!

Anyway, Router has been left direct into test socket with no filters (don't use the phone much), and it had lost sync sometime during the night.

Current Stats are:

Connection: 6656 kbps
Attenuation: 38 dB
SNRM: 12 dB

B.T. Speedtest result:

Download speedachieved during the test was - 5087 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :6656 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 5500 Kbps

Phill

if you turn them down you have no sympathy from me, what do you hope to gain by saying no?

Hi,

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

f you turn them down you have no sympathy from me, what do you hope to gain by saying no?

I agree with you and shall have to arrange for them to come out. Just hasn't been convenient lately.

Phill

I've contacted Openreach regarding said meeting. Just have to wait and see now.

The HR Symptoms rose their ugly head again yesterday morning after rain/wind.

No Sync on any Router. Lifting the Telephone handset 'forced' sync which was lost when handset was replaced. The loud hiss was back to as Sync was established.

Changing cables/filters made no difference.

Using a RJ11 to BT plug gave no sync, thus ruling out filters.

With a telephone into the Test Socket, there was crackle.

When the weather improved, sync was re-established at 160 kbps (98 kbps down) @ 38 db Attenuation and 31 db(!) SNRM.

Today Sync is at 6656 kbps (4008.11 kbps Down) @ 38 dB Attenuation and 12 dB SNRM.

And the weather's improved a lot too!

Phill

Edit:

Just had reports that there are 2 Openreach vans at a road about 2 blocks down, so not that far from me. The pavement's had access made in to it too. Could this be where my problem emanates from? I'd love to know what they're up to!

Edited by deleted (Tue 13-Oct-09 15:34:47)

Could always ask, if they don't look too busy

"The next thing they propose is a "cease and re-provide" - the problem with that is all the cabling round here dates back to the 1960's, so I'll go from one 40 year old cable to another 40 year old cable."

The 'cease and reprovid'e is when they reprovide your account via a different rack in the exchange. The lift and shift only moves it on to another spare port on the same rack.

I date from the 60's also ...... it isn't an instant guarantee of poor quality.

Sorry for not keeping things up to date here. Basically nothing was happening since the last post I made here.

I never got in touch with BT again as I didn't want to risk one of their ridiculously inflated call out charges.

The other thing, I've really been quite ill & was/am suffering from agoraphobia. Last year my Grandad & 5 other relatives died (one of which was my great aunt who was murdered), So as I'm sure you can understand that ADSL was the last thing on my mind. Plus there was no way it seemed Openreach were listening.

Anyway, since th last time I posted my Sync speed was set at 573kbps with a poor ip profile of around 190k to 330k.

December 14th last year, I noticed Openreach installing a new line for one of my neighbours. When I got back in, my connection was now synced at around 1000k still with the poor throughput.

This confirmed (for me anyway) again that there is a fault at the pole. The work going on whilst the neighbours line was being worked on was disturbing mine causing a small improvement.

Still being cautious about being told it was 'a faulty filter, that's a £175 please guv'. I thought I'd wait til new year.

Anyway, I ran a BT Linetest which low and behold failed. It said there was a fault likely to be at equipment near the customers house i.e. the pole the lazy ahem! wouldn't go up.

The next day their was a ring at the door. A guy from Openreach was standing there. I showed to him the noise caused by the HR Dis being present and what happened if the ADSL was removed from the circuit causing the line to go clearer.

He started to argue a bit about how did I know it was a HR Dis and all was not looking good. Oh joy another £175+ or so I thought.

But then he said the magic words "well if it is intermittent, I'd better check up the pole". Man, I could have collapsed.

After a while he came back in and told me that my line had been trapped in the lid of the box up the pole, causing the cable to be damaged. Also the other line to the house (which is just for voice) has badly corroded at the old type screw terminals. My line is crimped apparently.

Yey but also arrrrrgggggghhhhhhh! Hadn't I said nearly 2 years ago they need to get their behinds up the pole as water was propbably getting in?

It's much easier to blame the cutomers 'nth replaced filter.

Apparantly, he re crimped my lines terminals but didn't do the other line. He said mine after all was a HR Dis.

After getting in touch with Fast, they reset my SNRM. Sync is now at 7063kps with a ip profile of 6000k. A heck of a difference.

Since the Openreach chap came out and done what he did, I've found at that 2 of my neighbours have required new lines due to corrosion. Here's hoping they replace ours when they come to fix the other line.

Now, I wonder what compensation I should go for? Someone, after-all, damaged my line which would have cost me the call out fee so they could blame my new gear.

Finger's crossed they replace the line, because until then I wouldn't hold my breath for my connection to last.

After all, if the other line is corroded at the pole and mine is the spare pair in the cable, chances are mines corroded too?

I did ask the Engineer to write down what was wrong and what needed doing, so if no one listens when we report the other fault... Wham! Have this!

Anyway,

Cheers!

Phill

Edited by deleted (Tue 18-Jan-11 09:46:26)

thanks for the update. defenitly claim back any fees you have paid. Another post that proves openreach should always go looking for faults even if it could be customer equipment.

Talking of incompetence of some Bt openreach engineers, when they migrated my Adsl (smpf) from one llu provider to another, usually a 30min job at the exchange, so little downtime, except in my case it the downtime was several days of (phone & adsl) as the idiot disconnected a working pair and re-connected a unconnected pair to the isp's exchange kit, reported back to be, saying there was a problem as no signal was present,
After phoning my isp they suggested to phone bt and report it as a PTSN(Voice) fault,which i did, even though i had a good idea as to what had happened,
several days later bt openreach arrive at my home, they plugged a device that had a flashing led & looked like a battery into the faceplate( i think it sends a tone/pulse ) to help locate the correct pair, so of they went 2hrs later they returned and my phone & adsl were restored, i asked why i had been without any service, the engineer confirmed my suspicions & told me that the other (adsl) engineer had connected the wrong pair up,due to the fact that the mapping for cabling isn't updated
the pair he had connected was the first pair that was used until a line fault (ptsn Hr/dis ) which resulted in both e and d side pairs being swapped, and also the isp's port too, it's unbelievable that they will walk away leaving someone who no doubt had a working service without any service at all , but that's bt for you