Advice on choosing ISP

Hi all
My brother is thinking about finally stepping into the modern age (still on dial up!)
Can anyone offer advice on an ISP for him?
Currently with BT for line rental
Exchange is Cressington in Liverpool
Doesn't need mega fast and loads of usage allowance, very light usage
Doesn't want to pay megabucks "just for broadband"

My initial thoughts were Tescos- £13 phone/£2.50 internet but reviews seem poor
Plusnet looks OK, similardeal but internet is a bit more.

Thoughts?

Edited by chrimbow (Mon 27-Aug-12 17:18:25)

How much do they pay now for BT line rental?

Tricks like paying for the year in advance can reduce the line rental, and Plusnet should be pretty cheap and reasonable as its a market three area.

You dont have to move the phone line rental unless you want to.

Has he worked out how much he pays for dialup?

My personal pick would be to leave the phone with BT, (he'll feel more comforable there as a first step), and Plusnet Value for the broadband, at £6.49.

Alternatively, what phone package is he on with BT? Perish the thought, but many years ago, in his ignorance, my brother was on dialup and signed up to TT with unlimited international calls. (Wife has family in Australia and it was expensive on BT). Not had any problems, and happy with it ever since.

He hardly uses his dialup as its so slow, he uses the internet when he has to in work which is why he has held off home BB for so long. He just wants to be able to use it at home for very light usage.
Paying about £13/month for phoneline with inclusive off peak

Don't forget he can get the line rental down a fair bit by paying the year up front. On most suppliers these days.

PN would be a good choice for broadband - also if he has been with BT for several years then a good retention deal might be offered ("special discount") if agrees to a new contract for the line rental, or if only free weekend calls are required then an upfront full annual payment might be a good move (caller display etc. would be included.)

Does he have Sky TV? If so their free broadband would be an option. You'd need to switch line rental to Sky and it comes with a 2GB usage allowance.

We have just signed up for 3rd year with BT and use about 5Gb per month of our 10Gb allowance. We have just paid £129 year's line rental up front. We pay about £15 per month for BB and unlimited daytime calls.

We're very happy with speed (around 9Mb) and customer service, we had a couple of problems of our own making and BT call centre fixed them pleasantly and effectively. We would not have left Tiscali but for TalkTalk cutting us off in their great takeover debacle, which has proved a blessing in disguise. So far BT has proved reliable and great value for money.

Looked at BT and the cheapest one on the site is line rental + BB cost at £13 (free for first X months)

Nah, not bothered about Sky/Virgin telly

Yes, looked into that with Plusnet, couple of quid cheaper for rental

Just a thought. Have you checked out the expected line speed?

In reply to a post by chrimbow:

Looked at BT and the cheapest one on the site is line rental + BB cost at £13 (free for first X months)

£13 + line rental from £10.75 = from £23.75, free for 6 months is for new customers only (?) and 18 month contract.

I also suggest Plusnet 'value'. Going from 48K to x Meg will be great, whatever the speed of the connection.

Value with evenings and weekends is £3.24 for the package for the first 6 months, then £6.49 thereafter. £12.99 for line rental per month, or if he pays 12 months in advance, an equivalent of £9.49 per month (save £42).

If he takes the Plusnet value and the evenings and weekend package, with the six months special offer, and pays in advance, he's be £14.36 per month for the first year. Suggest he has a think about call packages before jumping in though. Not all packages suit all customers (i.e. I do some daytime, and almost no 0870 calls, so the anytime package is fine for me).

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by chrimbow:

Looked at BT and the cheapest one on the site is line rental + BB cost at £13 (free for first X months)

£13 + line rental from £10.75 = from £23.75, free for 6 months is for new customers only (?) and 18 month contract.

For what he will use it for £10.75 is comparatively expensive plus it goes up after 6 months so I think BT is a no-goer! Thanks for the help though

yes, the plusnet one reckons 14-18meg, more than ample (in fact Im jealous but that's what I get for being a N Wales bumpkin!)

In reply to a post by camieabz:

I also suggest Plusnet 'value'. Going from 48K to x Meg will be great, whatever the speed of the connection.

Value with evenings and weekends is £3.24 for the package for the first 6 months, then £6.49 thereafter. £12.99 for line rental per month, or if he pays 12 months in advance, an equivalent of £9.49 per month (save £42).

If he takes the Plusnet value and the evenings and weekend package, with the six months special offer, and pays in advance, he's be £14.36 per month for the first year. Suggest he has a think about call packages before jumping in though. Not all packages suit all customers (i.e. I do some daytime, and almost no 0870 calls, so the anytime package is fine for me).

I think he will end up with PN. Is it UK call centres? I think they are owned by BT (who I wouldn't go with again after falling foul of their pathetic overseas "support")

Yes, UK support. Based in Sheffield.

Yes they are owned by BT, but it seems to be very much an at arms length relationship. As in setting targets and such-like, as opposed to being directly controlled. aka Plusnet own Madasafish and a couple of others and is basically one operation with a few differences by brand, and I believe all running on the Plusnet system and backhaul.

TalkTalk would be my suggestion. Even though telephone support is flaky, I believe they are perfectly addiquate for a light user and their LLU can often be faster than Plusnet's BTW service.

As for which deal to choose, the Essentials package sounds as if it'd fit your brother's needs and for £3.25 a month + £14.50 line rental (which can be paid for yearly, equivalent to £9.50 a month).

Take a look at the deal on the TT website and go through Quidco for £65 cash back if you decide to order.

Good luck.

In reply to a post by Xplosion:

TalkTalk ... their LLU can often be faster than Plusnet's BTW service.

Why/How? When Orange's BTw WBC service is well faster than their old LLU one? It won't be cuz of the BT IP Profiling cuz that is now continuous and very proactive.

The comment is factual as TalkTalk have there ADSL2+ equipment in more exchanges than BT have ADSL2+ available in .

So saying " their LLU can often be faster than Plusnet's BTW service." is factual and the use of " Often " implies it may not always be the case , just often is .

Also the fact that TalkTalk have more control over the line profile than any BTW product and lets not forget BT IP profiles , that can often make a line even slower than it actually needs to be , as in my line sync at 8128 but my profile is 7150 ?

The OP's brother is ona WBC-enabled exchange so XRaySpeX's description of the DLM is correct. You appear to be on non-WBC, which is unfortunate for you.

Given the WBC almost invisible DLM, which on a stable line will lower the sync-time margin to 3dB from its default 6dB, the TT default 9dB looks a bit underwhelming.

I had my doubts when XRaySpeX first started saying this sort of thing, but nearly all Orange stats I have seen since are very good compared to previous Orange LLU. He seems to have "the facts" on his side.

The question is anyway almost irrelevant to this instance.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 28-Aug-12 09:11:00)

Shortlist the 2 or 3 ISPs from the advice given on this thread.
Then use the COMPARE Broadband tool on thinkbroadband site.
Link on the left hand side of the home screen under service providers.

Note: The differences are much greater than the graphs indicate at first glance
because of the visual scale used.

It's about time thinkbroadband revised the "Compare Broadband" graphs.
They have all the data they need and update it monthly.
A pity it is visually deceptive.
They use 20% steps on the vertical axis.
10% steps will give a more accurate reading.

Make sure you scroll down the results page to see all 3 categories:
Speed. Reliabilty. Customer Service.

PlusNet Value still looks best to me.
If he does not want to have a contract just pay for the router.
If you take it free you are on a 12 month contract as with most ISPs.

(The above "Anonymous" post is also by me - Ash76.)
I have been with Plus Net for about 2 years.
Lately, the reliability has been erratic but I am forgiving because
of the great Customer Service. But I still downgrade my monthly rating.

Edited by deleted (Tue 28-Aug-12 10:51:00)

In reply to a post by woweebert:

So saying " their LLU can often be faster than Plusnet's BTW service." is factual and the use of " Often " implies it may not always be the case , just often is.

"Occasionally" would be a more accurate description!

Also the fact that TalkTalk have more control over the line profile

So TT's 7 dB Target NM is better control than the 3 dB that BTw's WBC often achieves on a good line?

I'm afraid your judgement is clouded by your unfortunate situation of only being on a 20CN exchange.

In reply to a post by woweebert:

Also the fact that TalkTalk have more control over the line profile than any BTW product

Currently surfing with SNR locked at 3dB with Plusnet.

In reply to a post by woweebert:

and lets not forget BT IP profiles , that can often make a line even slower than it actually needs to be , as in my line sync at 8128 but my profile is 7150 ?

Sorry if I misunderstand. Are you saying that you can get better than a 7150 profile on an 8128 sync if on LLU?

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Are you saying that you can get better than a 7150 profile on an 8128 sync if on LLU?

There are no such Profiles on LLU.

Ah. Never had LLU. In that case, it's basically the same as ADSL2+ in that the overheads will almost match the profile losses.

Yes it is, so its all down to how the DLM manages the line.

So for example two lines that take same route to exchange here, have same attenuation nominally - but can get 1.5 Meg from BT Wholesale ADSL2+ than the Sky system.

On O2/Be LLU one expects around 84% of sync as throughput. The new WBC DLM gives an instantaneous 88.2% profile, then there's the TCP/IP overheads to take out. Not much difference overall I expect.

Then there is the frequent 3dB sync-time margin on WBC, (and available on some O2/Be packages but not TT so far as I know), which can make 1200kbps sync difference.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

On O2/Be LLU one expects around 84% of sync as throughput. The new WBC DLM gives an instantaneous 88.2% profile, then there's the TCP/IP overheads to take out. Not much difference overall I expect.

I was given the impression, perhaps wrongly, that TT exchange kit (in my case probably ex-Tiscali broadcom kit and uno SMPF) would give a slightly faster downstream sync than 21CN WBC kit with the same 37bB attenuation and 6dB SNRM using a broadcom router, i.e. tg585v7.

It would probably be wrong to generalize that TT LLU would be faster than WBC adsl2+ though?

Edited by 4M2 (Tue 28-Aug-12 13:57:55)

Sky DLM can now set a sync that gives a 3db SNR too.

A few years ago talktalk may have been slightly faster due to the way the systems used to work.

Nowadays they should work out about the same. If anything BTs would be quicker as it's more likely to give you a 3db SNR by default.

That being said with TT you can always request a 3db SNR. So ultimately both would probably be around the same with a slight difference but nothing significant.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Tue 28-Aug-12 14:10:40)

Sure, but how much would downstream throughput be effected by the different systems if using a 6dB SNRM interleaved connection for stability without considering the possibility of a 3dB downstream SNRM?

Again TT and BT 21CN should be around the same. BT perhaps slightly slower but the expected throughput speeds for LLU connections is around 80 - 85% and the BT profiles are in the high 80s.

So throughput wouldn't be miraculously better on TT. Throughput is dependant on so many things...

Edited by ukhardy07 (Tue 28-Aug-12 14:26:06)

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

...So throughput wouldn't be miraculously better on TT. Throughput is dependant on so many things...

using a broadcom router, i.e. tg585v7.

Matching the equipment may give a slightly better speed. You can do this on ANY isp though. So matching the equipment on a sky, BT etc connection may give a better speed. I personally found it didn't make any difference when I tried though.

It would probably be wrong to generalize that TT LLU would be faster than WBC adsl2+ though?

Short answer yes.

As ukhardy and others are saying, the BT WBC product is much different from what it was a couple of years ago. Just the fact hasn't escaped the huge sandbank of its lousy past.

There's a limit to the accuracy anyone can estimate sync speeds on the same line with different equipment and/or different ISP backhaul and routers at their end. There isn't likely to be much difference based on generalities. Just sometimes one hardware combination hits the jackpot on a given line, but forecasting that is an occult art.

Much more important are the ISP's routers, backhaul, and overall throughput capacity.

The last place I ever expected to be was Plusnet! Well - maybe not quite. BT I rated lower, but it was a very close thing between PN and BT when I left IDNet fibre. TT I would be very unlikely to go to but can no longer really give logical reasons. Sky I would also resist because of the dominance established over TV from buying the rights to football many years ago and the deletorious effects of that on many aspects of our culture.

Well I get ~85% of downstream sync as throughput, i.e. 13Mbps and 11Mbps, with a 37db attenuation, interleaved and 6dB SNRM using a TT (uno) SMPF connection. If I were to change to 21CN WBC and retain the same tg585v7 router I would certainly hope not to lose too much throughput with a 6dB SNRM - of course a 3dB downstream SNRM might be possible with WBC adsl2+ but unlikely on my line...

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The last place I ever expected to be was Plusnet!

I believe PN's ticketing system has now improved?

Do plusnet offer unlimited at all? Even on the phone? If they did I'd consider it.

I agree with you regarding Sky. The politics of the Murdoch's don't agree with me. Years ago I wouldn't touch Sky... We then got into an area without really any decent TV signal. I got peer pressured into Sky TV at this point. From there they offered me some blooming good deals and somehow eventually got my whole line rental and calls with their sweet (loss making) devilish offers.

Heyho can't beat em, join em. It works too well for me to leave.

I'd certainly consider BT infinity when my contracts up though & that BT vision stuff.

See my router data in my sig. Usually it sync at 15,500 stable with 12.8 Meg speeds, but I've seen 16,000 and 13 Meg speed tests.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

See my router data in my sig. Usually it sync at 15,500 stable with 12.8 Meg speeds, but I've seen 16,000 and 13 Meg speed tests.

SNRM 3.1dB, bandwidth 16000Kbps, attenuation 32.5dB and fastpath - looks good

xDSL profile 14000Kbps and throughput ~13500Kbps.

For LLU ~85% of 16000Kbps would be 13600Kbps - perhaps with a 6dB SNRM though?

Ahh, but I can't get LLU, so I'll just have to suffer.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Ahh, but I can't get LLU, so I'll just have to suffer.

I don't think you are suffering though LOL!

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The OP's brother is ona WBC-enabled exchange so XRaySpeX's description of the DLM is correct. You appear to be on non-WBC, which is unfortunate for you.

Given the WBC almost invisible DLM, which on a stable line will lower the sync-time margin to 3dB from its default 6dB, the TT default 9dB looks a bit underwhelming.

I had my doubts when XRaySpeX first started saying this sort of thing, but nearly all Orange stats I have seen since are very good compared to previous Orange LLU. He seems to have "the facts" on his side.

The question is anyway almost irrelevant to this instance.

Unforgivably those that have access to LLU and BTW 21CN , FTTC and cable forget that large parts of the country are still on BT non standard ADSL and my best hope of having ADSL2+ is rather with TalkTalk enabling my exchange as they already have more ADSL2+ equipment in exchanges than BT do and are still doing more small exchanges even as i type this .

So local to me , most of the larger villages now have TalkTalk equipment in and no BT21CN equipment , in fact one exchange did have Orange LLU but no BT21CN but luckily Sky and TalkTalk had LLU equipment there and BT did 21CN the exchange but not after losing Oranges customer to other providers .

TalkTalk default line profile is 12db and often gets reduced to 6db by there version of DLM that strangely is not normally active or used as a training period but seems to randomly do its work if it appears at all .

But i have to admit i was not aware of BT 21CN DLM and how it worked and thank your self and XRaySpeX for bringing this to my attention but that does not change the fact there are more TalkTalk LLU exchanges than BT21CN exchanges , allot more !

As you say thou " question is anyway almost irrelevant to this instance " and i agree and will now desist with taking this topic of track .

Edit: not forgetting Isfield that is local to me and has no broadband provision at there exchange and sits between two market 3 exchanges . So i don't feel bad about not having ADSL2+ but lucky to have broadband .

Edited by deleted (Tue 28-Aug-12 18:45:17)

You're welcome!

In reply to a post by woweebert:

but that does not change the fact there are more TalkTalk LLU exchanges than BT21CN exchanges , allot more !

Not too much more!

In reference to www.thinkbroadband.com/news/5388-bt-wholesale-continues-its-21cn-ad...:

ADSL2+ has been available in the UK for many years now, and TalkTalk leads the way in terms of national coverage with their service available to around 93% of UK homes. BT Wholesale is rolling out its own ADSL2+ service, and has now caught Sky in terms of coverage with BT Wholesale offering its service to around 85% of UK properties.

The 85% figure is not the end of the story, the current plan is to increase coverage to 90% by Spring 2013.

EDIT: True, that is in terms of homes not exchanges, for which I haven;t found the figures.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Tue 28-Aug-12 18:59:00)

the list you posted is actually very helpful as it shows BT are going after exchanges about the size of mine , thing is , so are TalkTalk and Sky , if you search the list you will find TalkTalk already have a presence at allot of the exchanges , this is especially true in my area of the world .

I don't think 85% coverage is that good when TalkTalk already have 93% as getting that last 8% of coverage over TalkTalk involves allot of exchanges .