Orange / EE to TalkTalk?

Afternoon all,

Last year I signed up to a cheap Orange deal (as they are my mobile provider too) and all in i get unlimited BB and Calls for around £20. The BB has been top, and very stable, but I quickly realised that i get absolutely hammered for speed during peak times. I wouldnt usually mind this, but my initial speed is dire anyway @ a steady 2.2 - 2.5 Mbps

I have read around and found that this is due to the fact that Orange / EE dont have their own equipemt at my local exchange. I have been on to Sam Knows and it seems that the only equipment providers at my local exchange are BT, O2 / BE, Sky / Easynet, and TalkTalk. Can anyone confirm if my above findings are correct? And also if my speed issue is in fact related to Orange / EE renting their equipment?

I do understand that TalkTalk may also reduce my speed at peak times (depending on their policy) but i doubt it would be so severe.

Exchange Name: Birstall
Exchange Postcode: LE4 3AL

Cheers,

Paul

The issue is not down to them renting equipment. It is down to them not renting enough...

It doesn't matter to a great extent that they don't have their own equipment in the exchange, most ISPs don't. What matters is that they probably skimp on the amount of network connectivity that they buy off of BT so you are sharing the available network with more people than you would be if you were paying for a better quality service.

When paying so little the provider has to buy less to make it economical. If you go to a provider that charges more they have more money to be able to buy the backhaul and therefore can provide a better service.

You unfortunately get what you pay for.

The "BT" at your exchange is of course BT Wholesale. That is what EE/Orange are using there as they don't have their own kit. They just don't rent enough throughput capacity.

BT Wholesale is what nearly every ISP uses.

You could get Plusnet Unlimited there, see this page. The included calls are just Weekends. Evening and Weekends is £1.50. Anytime is £5. They do rent enough throughput capacity.

There's a Line Rental saver if you can pay the year up front, £131.88 equivalent to £10.99pm. No calls at all included but the E & W and Anytime are the same price as above.

Birstall exchange has 21CN WBC 20 Mbps service and only get 2.2 Mbps speed you must be on a very long line. What are your router stats?

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/EMBIRSS

Hi,

Sync speed is about 4mbps, but actual throughput is about 2.2. I've always had this speed even when I used to be with bt. I used to have an external nte5 which they have now bypassed due to an old fault on my line, so I now have an adsl (2000?) faceplate.

Below are stats from my TD-W8970 following a reboot:

Upstream Downstream
Current Rate (Kbps) 448 2944
Max Rate (Kbps) 1012 3712
SNR Margin (dB). 21 15.6
Line Attenuation (dB) 29 45.9
Errors (Pkts) 0 0

According to google maps, am 1.3 miles from exchange. My house is 2.5 years old (don't know if this makes a difference)

Regards,

Paul

Sorry to tell you but your sync speed is actually the 2944 figure

The Max rate is what the modem thinks it could achieve if your target noise margin was lower.

http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/calc/calculator.php suggests the following results
http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/calc/calculator.php?par...

ie. that your connection is under performing, and it might not all be down to the target noise margin. So time to unplug faceplate and check at the test socket etc

Hi,

Faceplate off and only router connected:


Upstream Downstream
Current Rate (Kbps) 448 2944
Max Rate (Kbps) 1012 3712
SNR Margin (dB) 21 15.6
Line Attenuation (dB) 29 45.9
Errors (Pkts) 0 0

Regards,

Paul

So down to pestering ISP to get the target noise margin lowered to give you some more speed, and edge towards the 4Meg area

Hi,

Apologies, the old info was still in my clipboard.

Correct information for test socket below:

Upstream Downstream
Current Rate (Kbps) 448 4128
Max Rate (Kbps) 1024 4928
SNR Margin (dB) 21 14.8
Line Attenuation (dB) 28 44.9
Errors (Pkts) 0 0

Any better?

Paul

Suggests a dirty contact or failing faceplate as speeds have improved.

You now have enough spare margin that even 5 Mbps might be possible with some pestering of the ISP.

A new faceplate may be the way to go, and it might be possible the speeds continue to improve every few weeks if the line becomes more stable.

Faceplates do sometimes fail, bad solder joints or capacitors that are failing. Or there is some funky extension wiring on the faceplate that has been wired wrong, e.g. a phone extension running off of the ADSL connectors.

OP is running ADSL Max when exchange is capable of WBC ADSL2+.

Of course OP could be on a legacy "up to 8 Meg" product.

@ OP: Are you?

Im on an "up to 20 Meg" product

The router is usually plugged into an extension socket upstairs (new house build wiring as of 2.5 years ago). Its not got an ADSL 2000 faceplate on it, I remember that I have got all the kit for it, just not got round to doing it yet, my mistake, sorry guys!!

I assume from all you responses that being that close to the exchange, with the WBC ADSL2+ available then I should be getting a decent connection?

You think its IPstream Max, but might be ADSL2+ with a capped upstream (Plusnet manage that easily enough, then uncap when pestered)

If the service is limited to ADSL only standard then the range of speeds expected is 4.2 to 5.7 Meg and with a lower target noise margin that is possible.

http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/calc/calculator.php?par...
Shows the maths that support the above statement.

Also they show speeds for ADSL2+ which are in the 6800 to 8750 range potentially. So if you are on ADSL2+ already then you are under performing even when the target noise margin is taken into account.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

You think its IPstream Max, but might be ADSL2+ with a capped upstream

EE (or DLM) sometimes cap upstream to 444K (not 448) on Interleaved, but it usually rises to 888K fairly quickly.

No, OP stats look suspiciously like an ADSL Max profile. On ADSL2+ he should getting about 7.2 Meg downstream. It's badly under-performing.

OK thanks guys.

So whats my next step?

I assume if I stay with Orange then ill always get hammered for speed during peak times, so maybe look at BT or TalkTalk as I understand that they wont do it?

If there is an issue with the line / profile im on, is it a job for BT direct, or will my ISP sort that out?

Regards,

In reply to a post by Boon147:

Correct information for test socket below:

Upstream Downstream
Current Rate (Kbps) 448 4128
Max Rate (Kbps) 1024 4928
SNR Margin (dB) 21 14.8
Line Attenuation (dB) 28 44.9
Errors (Pkts) 0 0

Maybe just give it some time to settle down now that you are getting a better downstream sync speed (Current Rate) from the test socket. If stability is maintained for a while then SNR Margins may reduce and you might achieve optimum speeds

Don't think I would consider going to TalkTalk full LLU though unless it was through a reseller doing TTB partial LLU...

Does your router show the ADSL Mode in operation anywhere? Cuz it looks like they are running you on ADSL Max (G.DMT) rather than ADSL2+.

Ask ISP to put you on ADSL2+.

That'll be fun with Oragne technical support!!!

I will give it a try, but also tempted by BT with this sports package.

Anyone else on Orange who have a number that I use to get to a UK Customer service rep?

Cheers

Not necessarily but a non-0844 # that may be free on your call plan: 0870 376 8888

As expected, just tried to call them and was about as useful as a chocolate teapot!

Called the number you provided who quickly transfered me to the technical team, and they said no matter what package im on the speed would not increase. I kept trying to explain that im on the incorrect profile / mode but he would not accept it, and blamed the BT wiring to my house that can only hand 2 - 4 Mbps. I breifly worked for BT in the HITS team so have a very very limited understand of this, but I got the impression he was feeding my rubbish after i told him that i can still use my phone and BB ok.

I might call the UK and say im thinking of leaving to see if i get any joy from them.

Problem is without the detailed Technical knoweldge that you guys have, i want to sound convincing in what im saying but dont think i do!!

Cheers

In reply to a post by Boon147:

Hi,

Sync speed is about 4mbps, but actual throughput is about 2.2. I've always had this speed even when I used to be with bt. I used to have an external nte5 which they have now bypassed due to an old fault on my line, so I now have an adsl (2000?) faceplate.

Below are stats from my TD-W8970 following a reboot:

Upstream Downstream
Current Rate (Kbps) 448 2944
Max Rate (Kbps) 1012 3712
SNR Margin (dB). 21 15.6
Line Attenuation (dB) 29 45.9
Errors (Pkts) 0 0

According to google maps, am 1.3 miles from exchange. My house is 2.5 years old (don't know if this makes a difference)

Regards,

Paul

Do you get the same results with the EE/Orange Bright Box router? Select ADSL2+ see if that will change your connection speed.

You can find the exchange distance with Samknows� Use Search then click on Locality.

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/broadband_checker

You are approximately ??? metres from the exchange. Note that this is the straight line distance - the actual cable length will be longer!

Try this to get apparently the actual phone wire distance from exchange-

http://windows.mouselike.org/be/?DoAction=BrasChecker

Thanks for your replies.

Have studied both links and proves an interesting read!!

BT wholesale (which I assume what my current ISP rents?) says my line can handle adsl2+ and estimates speeds of over 5.5mbps!!

Checked the 2nd link, and my cable distance is 2515m (about 1.5 miles) away from exchange, so something is defo wrong!!

I connected the bright box as per your suggestion and tried adsl2+ but it refused to even attempt to connect, no logs generated either. Would you suggest I leave it in that mode for a day or so to see if it forces a connection?

Next step is either trying to get EE to change me to adsl2+ (which I have no idea of how to do it cuz their tech support won't listen to me) or failing that move to bt but only on the proviso that they put me on adsl2+

Any suggestions of my next step?

Cheers

In reply to a post by Boon147:

I connected the bright box as per your suggestion and tried adsl2+ but it refused to even attempt to connect, no logs generated either. Would you suggest I leave it in that mode for a day or so to see if it forces a connection?

Any suggestions of my next step?

I don�t understand the Bright Box router not connecting, make sure your Username and Password are correct.
Factory reset the router and re-configure the router make sure the ADSL mode is set to automatic and see what the router gives as the ADSL mode setting for your connection.

To factory reset the router. Go� Advanced Set-Up > Accept > Tools > Factory Default > Use the button above to restore your router to the original factory settings.

EE/Orange/T-Mobile Bright Box router settings, to configure Go� Advanced Set-Up > Accept > Broadband Settings.

BOADBAND SETTINGS
This page provides advanced settings to connect your EE Broadband service

Broadband Type ADSL
Broadband Username:
Broadband Password:

Protocol: PPPoA
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Encapsulation: VC MUX
Internet IP Address: Dynamic
IP Address: 0.0.0.0
Subnet Mask: 0.0.0.0
DNS IP Address: Manual
Primary DNS: 193.36.79.101
Secondary DNS: 193.36.79.100
Connection Type: Always Connected
Idle Time: 0 (minutes)
Authentication Protocol: CHAP
MTU (576~1500): 1500

Save Settings.

Afternoon all,

@ E7er: I have tried a factory reset, and entered my details but it just sat there and didnt even attempt to connect. When i left it in AUTO mode, it connected me to ADSL Max.

Finally got through to the right person and they did indeed confirm I am on an "up to 4 mb" connection type, however my package is up to 20mb,...so,...I have been told to call the Provisioning team who can re-grade me and get me on an up to 5.5 mbps (adsl2+) connection,...however reading the earlier posts you guys reckon i should be aiming for around the 7 mark?

Anyway, they cant access my account at the moment as they are having some techincal issues, and to call back this afternoon. I reluctantly said OK, but gives me an ideal chance to get some ideal figures off you guys.

I have re-entered my details into collwebhome and got these results and want to know what I should be asking them to increase / decrease?

It seems no matter what i enter into that calculator it all comes back as bad, so what is the best figure to ask them to change (if possible)?

Kind Regards,

And thanks everyone for your help!!

Edited by deleted (Mon 20-May-13 12:48:03)

In reply to a post by E7er:

I don�t understand the Bright Box router not connecting (on ADSL2+)

Cuz OP is only being supplied with ADSL Max. Indeed he seems to be on a fixed 4 Meg profile.

In reply to a post by Boon147:

It seems no matter what i enter into that calculator it all comes back as bad, so what is the best figure to ask them to change (if possible)?

No particular figure but to take you off the fixed 4 Meg profile and put you on WBC ADSL2+. On that you should get about 6 Meg Sync (I said 7 earlier cuz we didn't know then that you weren't already on ADSL2+).

BTW: You'd get green light if you put 5000 as speed in that calc.

So i can ask if they can lower my SNR Margin, that will potentially improve things?

What about Line Att, do I need to do anything with that, or will the re-grade pull everything (inc SNR margin) into place anyway?

Cheers,

In reply to a post by Boon147:

So i can ask if they can lower my SNR Margin, that will potentially improve things?

No, that's a consequence of being on a fixed profile. Get them to put you on the correct ADSL mode 1st and then see what the NM is.

Your attenuation is determined by line length; 45dB on G.DMT or 48dB on ADSL2+.

Afternoon all,

I just wanted to thank you all for your input, your advice has been invaluable. Im now getting a steady 5Mbps into NTE5 which im happy with as its the best i can get, regardless of ISP!

Im now looking at moving the router back up to the extension socket where it was originally, however im planning on using an ADSL Extension Kit as I want to achieve the best possible speeds. I already have an ADSL kit, but ideally wanted a 'dual' unfiltered faceplate for it. The reason for this is because the the point where the ADSL extension wlll run is also a telephone socket (existing wiring), so I would like to have a faceplate to accommodate both.

I have found the following but unfortunately its a filtered faceplate therefore only having one connection at the back, but as my ADSL signal would already be filtered so id like to know if i can get an unfiltered one?

Do they even exist?

Cheers

Have you checked there isn't an unfiltered extension connector on the back of your "2000" filtered faceplate on the master? If there is, you just need to wire the extension to that.

If there isn't, maybe Wickes do one? Certainly the ADSL Nation NTE5 filtered faceplates do.

Whatever you do, make sure you get a cheapish IDC/Krone tool as well, as it's the only good way to connect wires to these things.

Take a look at the two circuit diagrams about 3/4s way down the page.

The ADSL part is UNFILTERED as shown by the straight-through lines, therefore continues to carry the phone audio etc.

So you can apparently simply extend your apparent "ADSL" line, fitting a suitable "splitter" at the far end as usual, whether that is a plug-in splitter or a dual faceplate on a surface box.

You may be able to use your existing phone extension, as long as it is connected to the unfiltered incoming line from BT.

Hi,

many thanks for your replies. Please excuse my ignorance but I don't quite understand either post, and I thnk it's down to me not being clear enough. - or my limited knowledge!!

I currently have an adsl kit which includes a 2000 faceplate with dual sockets. In this kit I also have a 30m twisted pair (looks cylindrical like cat5) which I will run in parallel with my existing extension wiring (by using the rj45 connected to the front of the faceplate). The kit also includes a 65mm x 65mm adsl (rj11) wall mounted face plate and back box. The adsl 2000 faceplate has the standard 2,3 and 5 connections behind it to connect any extension wiring which is already filtered.

Now my dilemma is that I could have a full size (unfiltered) telephone extension faceplate next to a wall mounted 65mm adsl extension, but ideally I'd like a faceplate that combines the 2, which would have 5 connections behind it, 3 for the telephone wiring, and then 2 for the adsl extension. As the phone line has already been filtered, I wouldn't need this doing again, but the faceplate that I linked to looks like exactly what I want, but only has 3 connections on the back - so I could only either connect the phone wiring, or the adsl wiring.

Is that any clearer, or am I completely missing your point in your posts??

Please accept my apologies if I have completely missed the point!!

Feel free to put me right!!

Cheers,

Paul

P.S. I already have a krone tool

My post is about:-

XTE-2005 to replace your current ADSL2000 filtered faceplate at your master socket. As well as the filtered output on the back of that to feed an extension socket, there is also an unfiltered set of connectors to feed ADSL+Phone to an extension socket.

All you have to do is disconnect your existing extension wire from the back of the ADSL2000 faceplate, (which you keep as a spare), and connect that extension cable to the A/B terminals that are on the back of the XTE-2005 instead of the normal 2,3,5. Ignore the wire on the existing T3, just curl it neatly out of the way.

You can then fit the extension filtered faceplate from Wickes at the extension end, or alternatively the similar XTF-68 or XTF-85 from ADSL Nation, to replace your existing extension faceplate.

Job done with no additional wires or sockets.
_{Edit - typos.}

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 13-Jun-13 00:01:26)

Sorry for the late reply but have been to the coast for a week.

Thanks for your reply. I may be wrong here but I thought an adsl 2000 extension is designed to give optimum speeds (similar to the test / master socket) at the extension socket, and this was due to the fact that the adsl signal is filtered by the adsl 2000 faceplate at the source?

My understanding of your post is to send an unfiltered connection up to my extension socket, however is that not the same as just using a regular extension and external filter?

Sorry for the basic questions, I just want to fully understand what I do before I do it!

Cheers

Post deleted by RobertoS

A regular extension and external filter introduces the problems associated with the ring wire.

Ok have been doing some diagnosis this eve and when the extension is disconnected I'm getting a sync speed of 6038 when connected to the master socket (not test)

If I connect the extension wiring, and then run the router off the extension, I get a speed of 4072.

So I'm loosing approx 2 mb using the existing extension wiring.

The simplest solution is to move my router downstairs to the master socket and disconnect the extension wiring, but unfortunately I have 4 network points next to the extension box which the router uses to feed the house. I also have a printer that plugs into the USB port of the router so I can use it as a network printer.

What (if any) are the possible locutions to get me the full 6mb sync speed at the extension socket?

Thanks,

Step 1, at the master .

It might not cure your particular issue, but is still the first thing to do, in order to eliminate it as the cause. It could improve your overall speed even if it doesn't remove the difference between the two sockets. While you have the master socket faceplate off, please write down then post what colour wire is connected to which of each of the numbered terminals on the back of the faceplate, as in the picture the page linked to. It is important that the correct colours are used, and if the wrong ones are in use that could explain the problem.

PS - now you've posted that, I see why you are so keen to get a better feed to the extension . Your shouldn't have this issue, and it could very well be the actual wire.

Ok guys, iPlate has finally arrived.

Installed, router rebooted and it now produces a sync speed of 5580 which is about 500 less than what it would be at the master with no extension wiring!!

So, was initially only getting a rough 4000 sync speed. This increased to 4500 with the bell wire disconnected, and now the iPlate has gained me another 1000 so I'm now looking for the remaining 500Kbps. Would the xte-2005 potentially achieve this? What would it actually do in order to increase the speed that we have not done already? Or could it be that he 500 has been 'lost' and I gotta accept it?

And as for the colours, BT's standard blues and 2's are applied (blue to 2, blue white to 5, and orange to 3 - no longer connected)

Thanks for your help guys, it really is appreciated!!!

Check that T2 >> T2 and T5 >> T5. If it's T2 >> T5 and T5 >> T2 it's wrong.

Ok, so as my sync speed increased, I thought I would let the line settle and hopefully the BRAS profile will change - unfortunately the sync speed has now dropped to 4996 (current) / 5120 (max) even following a reboot, so it seems the iPlate has increased it by 500 Kbps (which I'm still happy with)

Now I want to find the "lost" 1000 Kbps.

I followed each step on the website, I can confirm that there is no ring wire connected, the iPlate is installed and the line had time to settle, and t2 and t5 both go to their respective terminals on the extension box.

What's the next step? I read somewhere that you can't use an iPlate with xte-2005?

Cheers

Paul

In reply to a post by Boon147:

What's the next step? I read somewhere that you can't use an iPlate with xte-2005?

An iPlate should make no difference to connection speeds once the ring wire has been disconnected, as all it does is filter out the ring wire. Any changes noticed were likely to have been normal fluctuations in connection speed - or in your case the apparently abnormal fluctuations.

Having said that, if any phone extension cables are plugged into the phone socket of a dangly filter, then those usually contain a connected ring wire, so disconnecting fixed extension ring wires is not the whole story. An iPlate does, I believe, also filter the ring wire of a plug-in extension.

An XTE-2005 is simply a neat form of replacement dangly filter with two added features. First, it uses active filtering, not passive, but don't ask me to explain the difference, and it also filters out the ring wire in the same way as the iPlate does, including that in a plug-in extension.