Windows 8 - RIP?

It's behind a paywall so I can't get details, but:

In reference to www.ft.com/home/uk:

From COMPANIES 5:02am

Microsoft prepares U-turn on Windows 8

Failure on a par with �New Coke� fiasco nearly 30 years ago

The article basically says that there will be another version of Windows and that it won't be identical to Windows 8. Who'd have thought it.

Post deleted by BatBoy

And that Google search is helpful... how?

All it does is refer (directly in one case, indirectly in the other) to the FT article I quoted. Both, you may note, timestamped before my post- I'd seen both of them.

Go back to bed.

Edited by billford (Tue 07-May-13 08:24:02)

You can register with the FT and get/read a number of articles/month free of charge.
After that if you want to access more stuff then yes, you do need to pay.
I Think the D.Telegraph is/has going the same way.

http://blogs.ft.com/tech-blog/2013/05/why-the-start-... - free access to blogs and to a handful of articles per week if you're signed up (free).

I set up Win 8 for a guy who had gone and bought it as Vista was slow and getting on his nerves. With a bit of shuffling around his Metro start screen now meets his needs - the two tiles top left are Internet and Email which is all he does really.

Will it be Windows 6.3 I wonder ?

In reply to a post by zom22:

You can register with the FT and get/read a number of articles/month free of charge.

Yes, I noticed that, but as the full article would still be unavailable to those without any form of registration I didn't see the point of giving the link to it.

On behalf of others- thanks for the heads-up though.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

Will it be Windows 6.3 I wonder ?

What was Windows 6 on planet Yarwell?

In reply to a post by billford:

And that Google search is helpful... how?

All it does is refer (directly in one case, indirectly in the other) to the FT article I quoted. Both, you may note, timestamped before my post- I'd seen both of them.

Go back to bed.

It allows you to bypass the paywall

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

What was Windows 6 on planet Yarwell?

Vista, obviously.

http://www.computerhope.com/whow.htm

6.1 was Windows 7 - http://windows.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows7/release-... "This window displays the version and edition of Windows you're running. The final release version of Windows 7 is Version 6.1 "

Edited by yarwell (Tue 07-May-13 09:27:24)

In reply to a post by yarwell:

Vista, obviously.

Never used it.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

It allows you to bypass the paywall

That's odd... when I tried it from your post it took me to the same place as the link in my OP, i.e. the wrong side of the paywall.

I've just tried it again from History and, yes, it bypassed it .

I retract my instruction to return to your place of repose

A (probably) more balanced view.

With a headline like that, it wouldn't be worth reading.

I just can't understand the negative press, I really can't. The media (and a lot of consumers) just set out against Windows 8 all along for absolutely no reason. The next version of Windows (Windows Blue) was always in the pipeline and planned to be released not too long after Windows 8. Adding the start button back might be a "u-turn" but its not a major one. It is because Microsoft are aligning so many of their products they knew they would never be able to get it all done for Windows 8 RTM. You might even speculate Microsoft knew that people would be against Windows 8 (a bit like they was vista) so they planned to come out with a new version shortly after. You know, a bit like how everyone loves Windows 7 so much yet it is not a million miles different from Vista!

Edited by Pipexer (Tue 07-May-13 19:32:46)

Question is will it be a free update? I suspect not.

Most sources suggest the update will be free to Windows 8 customers. It will be free to Windows Phone 8 customers almost certainly. The server flavor might not be but that is covered by different agreements anyway and its not so easy to just upgrade servers like that.

Personally, if is a nominal fee I will not mind at all.

And if you are lucky Microsoft might open up the upgrade to older OS versions

Not what it says here

In reference to blogs.windows.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2013/05/06/wind...:

Tami Reller: We recently surpassed the 100 million licenses sold mark for Windows 8. This number includes Windows licenses that ship on a new tablet or PC, as well as upgrades to Windows 8. This is up from the 60 million license number we provided in January. We�ve also seen the number of certified devices for Windows 8 and Window RT grow to 2,400 devices, and we�re seeing more and more touch devices in the mix.

As we talked about in our last Q&A, Windows 8 is a big, ambitious change. While we realize that change takes time, we feel good about the progress since launch, including what we�ve been able to accomplish with the ecosystem and customer reaction to the new PCs and tablets that are available now or will soon come to market.

Edited by deleted (Tue 07-May-13 20:05:10)

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-...

Updated version of operating system will take into account complaints made by users as decision to overhaul the much-maligned operating system has put Bill Gates�s successor under pressure

And there you have the essence of good business sense. Listen to your customers, and respond to their demands.

Not being funny but is that article just a made up story from an alternative universe? What is this so-called U-turn??

I don't see any U-turn going on, unless bringing back a little windows logo in the bottom left of the screen is what is called a u-turn. That's just insane, and an insult to the millions of new lines of code in Windows 8 and yet a few thousand to add back a start button is called a product U-turn. Ridiculous.

Steve Ballmer is doing a fine job, yes Microsoft missed the boat on some things but technologically they are very well positioned now. Windows Phone 8 is amazing. Windows 8 is amazing. I think Windows Blue will be amazing too.

Also, the person who was driving Windows 8 was not Ballmer, but Steven Sinofsky, who left under undisclosed circumstances... interesting how the media etc were sad when he stepped down and blamed Ballmer for getting rid of him yet they are also the same critics of Windows 8 that Sinofsky was in charge of!

Edited by Pipexer (Tue 07-May-13 20:58:10)

In reference to www.theverge.com/2013/5/7/4309406/windows-8-start-button-julie-lars...:

Microsoft dropped the biggest hint at the return of a Start button to Windows 8 today. Speaking at the Wired Business Conference in New York, Windows chief Julie Larson-Green reiterated that Microsoft is looking to change certain elements of its upcoming Windows 8 update, codenamed Blue, in response to user feedback. "Some of it is about not just about time on task or how quickly they learn it� some of it is just in the comfort level that people have."

That comfort level has left some confused, and others calling for the return of the Start button to Windows 8. Third-party apps that specialize in providing a button UI have soared in popularity since Windows 8's release. In early January, Pokki revealed that that its Start button replacement app had been downloaded 1.5 million times since the Windows 8 release in October. Although there is a tiny Start button-like UI element in the lower left of Windows 8, Larson-Green admitted it wasn't ideal for everyone. "It's hidden, so some people like the comfort of having it show up on the screen all the time, so they just know their home place and where to go."

The only other major consumer OS retailer (Apple) would kill for sales figures like those of Windows 8.

It's always the same when general newspapers comment on technical matters. They may understand finance, but they have no idea about technology.

In a similar vein to Google removing their search tools last year, and then re-instating them after substantial demand, MS are having to address similar issues. If they address the issues it's no big deal. If they don't, it might be.

People keep lauding mobile apps, mobile search engine design, and mobile OS and browsers, but the proponents forget that what makes the world go around are the desktop users in businesses; the designers within businesses, and these factors cannot be ignored.

To you (from my perspective, reading your posts), everything MS does is "amazing". To me, I can either use it or it's of no use to me. Sometimes the advances in technological thinking are amazing. The desktop mouse was an amazing idea. Nothing had quite eclipsed that (quite yet) in scale. Touch screens are a great idea if you can find a better use for it than a mouse. Easier to move a mouse 2-3 inches than scroll your finger over a foot of screen (perhaps 3 feet or more away from your seat).

I haven't used Win 8 at all, but I hear plenty of discussion from those unhappy with it's desktop interface (let's not revisit the argument now). When the punters moan, the supplier should listen, and act accordingly.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reference to www.theverge.com/2013/5/7/4309406/windows-8-start-button-julie-lars...:

Although there is a tiny Start button-like UI element in the lower left of Windows 8, Larson-Green admitted it wasn't ideal for everyone. "It's hidden, so some people like the comfort of having it show up on the screen all the time, so they just know their home place and where to go."

I have seen many users not care for a more efficient method of using PCs, preferring their tried and tested methods. When I was younger I would despair, but accept that that was how they liked it. Now I encourage users to keep their preferred setup if possible. No drop in productivity for learning something which isn't necessarily of any benefit over their method (we're talking minutes wasted per year, versus hours of learning and practice).

In reply to a post by camieabz:

The desktop mouse was an amazing idea.

Invented in 1963 at the Stanford Research Institute, and first commercialised by Apple

In reply to a post by camieabz:

I haven't used Win 8 at all

er...

In reference to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_%28computing%29:

German company Telefunken published on their early ball mouse called "Rollkugel" (German for "rolling ball"), on October 2, 1968. Telefunken's mouse was then sold commercially as optional equipment for their TR-440 computer, which was first marketed in 1968.

Yes, I saw that.

It depends what you mean by "commercialised", and it was an optional extra on the TR-440, not an integral part of the system.

Ah, maybe you meant this

In reference to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIMP_%28computing%29:

In human�computer interaction, WIMP stands for "windows, icons, menus, pointer", denoting a style of interaction using these elements of the user interface. It was coined by Merzouga Wilberts in 1980.

WIMP interaction was developed at Xerox PARC (see Xerox Alto, developed in 1973) and popularized with Apple's introduction of the Macintosh in 1984, which added the concepts of the "menu bar" and extended window management.

No, I knew about that too.

Was Lisa "commercial"?

Yes.

It could be bought as a standard package, off the shelf, at a not unreasonable (for the time) price.

Not as a bespoke special-order system that came into the major capital investment category.

Pre-dated by Xerox Star, however

In reference to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Star:

The Star workstation, officially known as the Xerox 8010 Information System, was introduced by Xerox Corporation in 1981. It was the first commercial system to incorporate various technologies that today have become commonplace in personal computers, including a bitmapped display, a window-based graphical user interface, icons, folders, mouse (two-button), Ethernet networking, file servers, print servers and e-mail.

I knew several people who had Lisa's, how many do you know who had a Xerox Star?

It's like saying that Cray Inc commercialised supercomputers.

just read it and by the way you can register for free access on ft.com.

useful for only occasional use.

The article basically says microsoft are gong to be more agressive on new releases (bad in my opinion, android eg, is a aweful OS and has a very fragmented user base as a result of frequent updates), they going to be moree agressive on touchscreen hardware sales to try and get more of windows users on touchscreen devices (also bad in my view) and are going to allow a default boot to desktop option. There is no indications at all that they going to put focus back onto desktop. They are also considering making office for non windows OS.

Whats notable is they consider the issue of angry windows user been uneducated rather than themselves getting design decisions wrong.

I see nothing here that is going to make me be using windows in 5+ years time. A migration for me to linux desktop is looking more and more likely.

by the way direct links are helpful.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7266e47c-b72f-11e2-a249-00...

Edited by Chrysalis (Tue 07-May-13 23:07:40)

yeah hes the idiot who made silly decisions like this.

http://www.windowsphonedaily.com/2012/05/windows-8-t...

Whilst I agree microsoft are commited to windows 8 i dont agree its amazing, I think its their worse OS probably since windows ME. Its only a good OS if you a fan of touch devices, its aweful to use with a mouse, has various functions removed, and is buggy.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

by the way direct links are helpful.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7266e47c-b72f-11e2-a249-00...

Possibly, but if you're not registered, links to a sign-up page aren't.

and a link to the home page is better?

probably not.

So for mice, 1st was Telefunken TR-440, 2nd was Xerox Star and 3rd was Apple Lisa. I guess 4th was Apple Mac and it suddenly seems rather anachronistic that 30 years later we're still using them.

Maybe Microsoft are actually correct?

The link was valid at the time it was posted... you clearly don't spend enough time here

The way MS is coming across is very arrogant and their attitude is appalling.

The recent piece when they said about designing windows was like ordering a billion pizzas was hilarious. So order everybody a plain cheese base one and don't put olives or anchovies on my wife said.

Also there seems to be an extremely aggressive win 8 fan base on the internet which isn't helping matters.

When there are posts saying "if you don't like Win 8 then you are stupid." really doesn't help and it is all over the place. The pro win 8 crowd do need to take stock and stop alienating other windows users.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

So for mice, 1st was Telefunken TR-440, 2nd was Xerox Star and 3rd was Apple Lisa. I guess 4th was Apple Mac

In terms of use, not commercialisation, I think the 4th was Microsoft- Windows came out about 18 months or so after the Lisa (MS playing catch-up again ), though I'm not sure about the Mac of those days.

and it suddenly seems rather anachronistic that 30 years later we're still using them.

Why? We're still using keyboards, and likely to be for many years yet- they've been around a hell of a lot longer than mice!

agreed, I have read tons of that rubbish.

The sad thing is, its a problem across many modern developers.

eg. on firefox features often appear because a dev wants it, and if a user doesnt like it then its a case of the user been behind the times, uneducated or just stupid. I see this issue across 100s of apps, developers driving features, not their users. then the media jumps on it calling everything new innotive and everything old obselete.

Microsoft are also been childish refusing to do a SP2 for windows 7. Another thing I noticed on modern developers, and microsoft are moving in that direction with the SP2 decision is that they tend to say things like bugs cant be fixed in existing version instead upgrade to the latest version.

In reply to a post by undecidedadrian:

The way MS is coming across is very arrogant and their attitude is appalling.

Something else they've learned from Apple

(And to forestall comment- I'm a Mac user, though not an Apple fanboy)

"Apple Inc.'s then-chairman Steve Jobs introduced the first Macintosh on January 24, 1984"
"The first independent version of Microsoft Windows, version 1.0, released on 20 November 1985"

In reply to a post by billford:

We're still using keyboards, and likely to be for many years yet- they've been around a hell of a lot longer than mice!

According to Windows 8, we've abandoned mice in favour of the keyboard.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

"Apple Inc.'s then-chairman Steve Jobs introduced the first Macintosh on January 24, 1984"
"The first independent version of Microsoft Windows, version 1.0, released on 20 November 1985"

I missed that, cheers.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

According to Windows 8, we've abandoned mice in favour of the keyboard.

Can't really comment on that, but it seems unlikely. AIUI, Win8 is aimed for ease of use on tablets etc, which don't have keyboards.

Taking my iPhone as an example, there's no mouse but a keyboard appears when required.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

but a keyboard appears when required.

That's not a keyboard it's a touchscreen.

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

Most sources suggest the update will be free to Windows 8 customers. It will be free to Windows Phone 8 customers almost certainly. The server flavor might not be but that is covered by different agreements anyway and its not so easy to just upgrade servers like that.

Personally, if is a nominal fee I will not mind at all.

And if you are lucky Microsoft might open up the upgrade to older OS versions

I doubt I will bother even if it is free to be honest, form what have been said the differences will be minimal, most of them focused on the new UI, which i don't use. also the start menu application i use will not work with windows 8.1 or it don't work with the leaked version

So may as well stay with windows 8 and startisback .

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

Its only a good OS if you a fan of touch devices, its aweful to use with a mouse, has various functions removed, and is buggy.

That is just plain wrong though. Windows 8 works perfectly with mouse and keyboard. In fact, its the best OS yet for that, because the keyboard shortcuts and search options/technology has been improved. Mouse support is also greatly improved in the way it behaves in multiple monitor scenarios (by stopping it moving across screen if you are right in the edge... which historically could be a PITA).

People are just perceiving it isn't as good with mouse and keyboard.... like someone I work with who is under the impression you aren't meant to install Windows 8 on machines because it is for touch only. Lucky for me I have the final say.

Again, buggy, not sure about that.

As yet I've heard no proper reason to hate Windows 8 on this forum, Camia likes his Vista installation and that is fair enough, but saying Windows 8 is poor based on no reasonable evidence is poor.

Maybe someone could explain this fervour for a desktop? I rarely see my Windows desktop, let alone actually use it for anything.

The Amiga 1000, complete with WIMPs and first developed in 1982, was unveiled at CES early in the summer of 1984.

Edited by Deadbeat (Wed 08-May-13 00:06:24)

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Maybe someone could explain this fervour for a desktop? I rarely see my Windows desktop, let alone actually use it for anything.

Not sure what you mean by that- do you run everything full-screen?

I can do that on the Mac but I don't. I like multiple apps to be visible for ease of switching, even more so as I run two monitors.

Each to their own.

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

According to Windows 8, we've abandoned mice in favour of the keyboard.

Can't really comment on that, but it seems unlikely. AIUI, Win8 is aimed for ease of use on tablets etc, which don't have keyboards.

I promise you, as someone who spends 10+ hours a day on Windows 8 computers which aren't tablets (i.e. work and home), this is just not the case.

I actually found the move from XP to Windows 7 many more times harder to adjust to than the move from 7 to 8...

btw I'm always on the Desktop.... yes in Windows 8... very rarely use the metro apps (but the live tiles are quite handy).

Edited by Pipexer (Wed 08-May-13 00:11:11)

In reply to a post by Deadbeat:

The Amiga 1000, complete with WIMPs and first developed in 1982, was unveiled at CES early in the summer of 1984.

About 18 months after the Lisa, introduced in January 1983.


eta- Developed starting in 1978, see top of link.

Edited by billford (Wed 08-May-13 00:11:56)

No, I use the taskbar to switch between apps. I use the taskbar for just about everything. Unlike Macs, you only have one desktop on Windows and I can't see a use for it.

I dont guess anything, I have used windows 8 for myself and my post is based on my own experience. I even spent many hours testing it and trying to make it workable for myself (as well as buying some licenses) but couldnt reach that point.

Someone has also posted the list of features removed in windows 8, the list is very real and not made up, but of course the view on that will depend if you actually used those features or not.

So I can use windows 8, just it doesnt look as nice (aero in vista and windows 7 is a real work of art), its harder to use as in tasks take longer and i came across some bugs.

Also important is I have no real reason to upgrade to it, been newer isnt a valid reason. I am not one of those who falls into the novelty factor.

I dont see my desktop much either, but the entire windows system itself I consider the desktop. So consider eg. is a desktop version of IE and a metro version of IE, they 2 different types of code bases.

Fair enough. I use the dock if I've managed to get one app completely hidden behind another, but I'm happier using a desktop.

I never used a Sinclair C5 either...

In reply to a post by billford:

Each to their own.

Exactly, and exactly the opposite attitude of the mobile/touch fanatics.

In reply to a post by billford:

Invented in 1963 at the Stanford Research Institute, and first commercialised by Apple

I think not.

http://www.logitech.com/lang/pdf/logitech_most_impor...

In reply to a post by camieabz:

I think not.

http://www.logitech.com/lang/pdf/logitech_most_impor...

Designed for use with graphics and network workstations

See my reply to Batboy's similar post.

Adding the start button back might be a "u-turn" but its not a major one

The start button was abolished with Vista..... At least Mr Balmar told us it was at the time and hailed this as a great change the removed the inconsistency of the start menu being the place you used to close down the machine. He never explained the inconsistency of a bubble saying 'Start' appearing when you hovered the pointer over it, though.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Taking my iPhone as an example, there's no mouse but a keyboard appears when required.

wow, magic !

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Maybe someone could explain this fervour for a desktop?

Many people think it's a place to store things so they can find them, sadly. By "things" I include folders full of documents, photos, etc.

They learn the folly of this when the desktop gets deleted or corrupted with a user profile.

In reply to a post by AEP:

The only other major consumer OS retailer (Apple) would kill for sales figures like those of Windows 8.

But Apple aren't an OS retailer, they only bundle their OS with high margin hardware.

If we had to buy hardware and then specify an operating system - OS/X, Win7, Win8, Linux etc etc - I feel the market would be somewhat different.

If you want to get in the car now and buy a sub £700 laptop it's going to be Windows 8, isn't it ? Not really a choice, let alone an informed one.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Maybe someone could explain this fervour for a desktop?

Many people think it's a place to store things so they can find them, sadly. By "things" I include folders full of documents, photos, etc.

I guess they haven't discovered the Desktop toolbar on the taskbar

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

I dont see my desktop much either, but the entire windows system itself I consider the desktop. So consider eg. is a desktop version of IE and a metro version of IE, they 2 different types of code bases.

Well, the desktop, taskbar and Windows explorer are all provided by explorer.exe. If you want Win 8 to boot to the desktop, you run explorer.exe at boot time.

So to me, the entire windows (pre-win8) system is Windows explorer and the desktop is a simple window on the desktop folder.

The desktop gives a good graphical presentation of everything that's available...so for me its primary function is to remind me of what I actually have even if it is only used once in a blue moon.

For me it's like the difference between the 'Favourites' bar, which I use 90% of the time and which has about 30 items, and the Favourites dropdown, which has over 1000 items all nicely arranged in folders....most of which I will probably only visit a few times a year.

Millions spent on aesthetics by the sounds of things but is it any quicker in a day to day scenario for the billions of users that type letters, browse the web and send a few dozen emails?

I have and they were fun and EASY to use!

In reference to www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22446754:

Microsoft has announced it will offer a preview version of its first major update to Windows 8 next month.

Oops

The tech company has issued a statement taking issue with the report.

"It is unfortunate that the Financial Times did not accurately represent the content or the context of our conversation about the good response to date on Windows 8 and the positive opportunities ahead on both Windows 8 and Windows Blue," it said.

"Our perspective is accurately reflected in many other interviews on this topic as well as in a Q&A with [chief financial officer] Tami Reller posted on the Windows blog."

The FT told the BBC it stood by its story.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Maybe someone could explain this fervour for a desktop?

Many people think it's a place to store things so they can find them, sadly. By "things" I include folders full of documents, photos, etc.

They learn the folly of this when the desktop gets deleted or corrupted with a user profile.

Of course the user profile has the default My Documents, My pictures etc etc etc sitting in it.

People stupidly assumed that as MS actually put these default folders in the user profile that they might want to put their data there.

Myself I don't use any of the folders in the user profile I prefer making my own folder tree on an external drive.

"What in effect they've done is compromise the desktop experience to create a great tablet and mobile experience. The problem is that it's the desktop buyers that pay for everything right now."

Pretty much sums up my previous post.

In reply to a post by billford:

I knew several people who had Lisa's, how many do you know who had a Xerox Star?

It's like saying that Cray Inc commercialised supercomputers.

i know someone who still got one.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Maybe someone could explain this fervour for a desktop? I rarely see my Windows desktop, let alone actually use it for anything.

so how do you use it unless you just use Metro apps? the metro apps are horrid, most are not usful and the couple I see that could be are rubbish and limited.

Not all of use spend our computer time in a browser, if we did them we may as well get a chrome book

In reply to a post by Deadbeat:

The Amiga 1000, complete with WIMPs and first developed in 1982, was unveiled at CES early in the summer of 1984.

I miss my Amiga.

so how do you use it unless you just use Metro apps?

well you can for example put panels (or whatever they're called) on the metro interface to launch desktop apps like Windows Live Mail, LibreOffice etc.

I still have a few along with a load of other "vintages".

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Maybe someone could explain this fervour for a desktop? I rarely see my Windows desktop, let alone actually use it for anything.

so how do you use it unless you just use Metro apps? the metro apps are horrid, most are not usful and the couple I see that could be are rubbish and limited.

Shortcuts on the start screen

I wonder how many people realise metro is the current long term goal and the desktop is now considered legacy by microsoft so as such will be removed in a future version of windows, and when its removed its not just the desktop itself its also desktop apps.

Microsoft will simply be waiting for metro apps to build up to a large enough number and will watch usage patterns and when they see desktop usage fall below a certian % they will kill it.

Unless that is enough people are stubborn like me and never use metro apps to replace desktop apps so as such they cant get that figure below the % to kill it without a backlash.

Aking to M$ there then.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

so how do you use it unless you just use Metro apps?

well you can for example put panels (or whatever they're called) on the metro interface to launch desktop apps like Windows Live Mail, LibreOffice etc.

But then you're jumping in and out of an environment. It feels clunky. As if you're using some kind of emulator and the computer is switching you into 'legacy mode'. And all that to get an environment that takes away useful features like overlapping windows that some of us rely on and that have been part of Windows (heck even the very name itself!) since inception.

Metro is fine for tablets and phones but it just isn't adequate for the kind of work I do. I typically have half a dozen applications running, spread across three screens. And yes I am often keeping an eye on one thing while using another.

My current theory is that the desktop might get dropped from most versions of Windows but they will keep a 'power user' or 'developer' edition that still has the desktop and may indeed have that as the primary UI. My productivity would be seriously impaired by Metro.

Edited by Andrue (Thu 09-May-13 14:57:57)

yes, you're forced to jump "environment" for example if you want a POP3 mail client.

I agree the dual mode is undesirable, especially when you have two parallel instances of Internet Explorer with no commonality, but I was just saying why you might not need to ever see the desktop while still using "desktop" style apps.

I don't know much about Win 8 but I do know that I was pushed to upgrade to IE10 because it was apparently so much superior to previous versions, but it has caused freezes and hangs that I never ever got with IE9. My first ever BSOD on my newest laptop was caused by IE10. Microsoft are losing it with these newer and newer versions that are too tricksy for their own good. Of course we need to move on, but after proper testing/research/evaluation.

It's more than likely a broken graphics driver than IE10 per se. Although IE10 could be the first app you installed that exercised that part of the driver. It's worth checking to see if your laptop's manufacturer has issued an update.

There has been an nVidia update lately that has broken all sorts of things on Windows 7. This was pushed out about the same time as IE 10. Reverting to an earlier driver (and blocking the update) solved this problem for me. As you say, Windows problems like this are almost always caused by third-party drivers.

yes I had many hangs on my win8 testing in IE.

I have left IE9 in place on my windows 7 for now, especially as the dll I use on my IE9 to disable that horrible anti aliasing of fonts isnt available for IE10.

this no IE10 version of it --> http://www.softwareninjas.ca/dwrite-dll-wrapper

Would that it would.

In reply to a post by undecidedadrian:

In reply to a post by yarwell:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Maybe someone could explain this fervour for a desktop?

Many people think it's a place to store things so they can find them, sadly. By "things" I include folders full of documents, photos, etc.

They learn the folly of this when the desktop gets deleted or corrupted with a user profile.

Of course the user profile has the default My Documents, My pictures etc etc etc sitting in it.

People stupidly assumed that as MS actually put these default folders in the user profile that they might want to put their data there.

Myself I don't use any of the folders in the user profile I prefer making my own folder tree on an external drive.

You think that's daft? You should see the hoops that us programmers have to leap through to locate those folders on all versions of Windows. There's at least three API functions at least one of which is deprecated and the two most recent have several different possible constants to use.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desk...

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desk...

So much fun it shouldn't be legal :-/

I love windows 8, everything runs on it at it is very fast and stable.

In reply to a post by cavillas:

I love windows 8, everything runs on it at it is very fast and stable.

Everythign? i would not go that far

You obviously aren't using it properly then ;p

I just hope that Microsoft realises that charging for upgrades wouldn't be a good idea.

In reply to a post by MrTAToad2:

I just hope that Microsoft realises that charging for upgrades wouldn't be a good idea.

Again, this is what TCPI was all about. It's still very much alive.

In reference to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing:

Trusted Computing opponents such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation and Free Software Foundation claim trust in the underlying companies is not deserved and that the technology puts too much power and control into the hands of those who design systems and software. They also believe that it may cause consumers to lose anonymity in their online interactions, as well as mandating technologies Trusted Computing opponents say are unnecessary. They suggest Trusted Computing as a possible enabler for future versions of mandatory access control, copy protection, and digital rights management.

Some security experts have spoken out against Trusted Computing, believing it will provide computer manufacturers and software authors with increased control to impose restrictions on what users are able to do with their computers. There are concerns that Trusted Computing would have an anti-competitive effect on competition in the IT market.

You can see the merits of trusted computing in the enterprise (perhaps), for the consumer, it can bog off.

In reply to a post by MrTAToad2:

I just hope that Microsoft realises that charging for upgrades wouldn't be a good idea.

According to BBC's Click, it will only be available via MS's App Store, not via Software Update.

I appreciate that this isn't necessarily a completely reliable source, nor does it automatically mean that you'll have to pay for it, but I assume it has implications for the "trusted computing" debate?

FWIW, Apple have gone down the same route with OS X updates.

That is interesting because if true would create an issue in the enterprise. Personally I run Windows 8 without a Microsoft Account -- I would be a bit disappointed (and also surprised) if I was forced to create a windows live account to get the update via the store... If the update is advertised thru the store but can be downloaded/installed by other means then I don't mind - I'd have thought it would have been done through Windows Update imho - firstly it is a large download and Windows Update can use technologies like BITS and other consistency checking mechanisms, also the Windows Update infrastructure is far more robust...

That post rambled a bit but you get the idea.

Edited by Pipexer (Sun 12-May-13 11:27:32)

I can see people moving onto Linux soon...

"Soon" might be a bit optimistic

But I, for one, haven't ruled it out if Apple go too far along the control freak route (or put too much emphasis on mobile devices!), but I like their kit and (most of) the software for it.

Maybe one more hardware update in a few years, then use this current machine to investigate Linux... I assume you can get versions that run on Intel Macs?

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by MrTAToad2:

I just hope that Microsoft realises that charging for upgrades wouldn't be a good idea.

According to BBC's Click, it will only be available via MS's App Store, not via Software Update.

I appreciate that this isn't necessarily a completely reliable source, nor does it automatically mean that you'll have to pay for it, but I assume it has implications for the "trusted computing" debate?

FWIW, Apple have gone down the same route with OS X updates.

Depends.

If its SP1. Probably free. Sounds like to me it is SP1 so should be free.

If its like windows 95 OSR2, then it will replace whats on the shelves in shops but existing users would have to obtain the new media, existing keys should work on it.

Can microsoft innovate at all? they just seem to copy apple an aweful lot.

an Intel mac is essentially a pc mobo they take standard linux distros and macbooks are popular as developer laptops. Might need to boot in legacy BIOS mode.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookPro

Thanks Phil. I've bookmarked that site in case Apple's "we know what's best for you" ever gets severely up my nose

In reply to a post by MrTAToad2:

I can see people moving onto Linux soon...

It is interesting our local PC repair shop has now got a small industrial unit and has become a laptop OEM with their own branded laptops and will do custom orders including what OS.

Apparently they are installing mostly win7 followed by linux and hardly any win8.

My wife has said her next laptop will either have win 7 on it or she will bite the bullet and go over to Linux. She refuses to even consider win 8.

The local PC repair shop has assured her they have enough win 7 keys to last for a very long time.

As for me I have investigated linux and have found that I can get drivers and programs to replicate my windows useage apart from one specialist program and the games.

So I am now confident a win 7/ linux dual boot may be possible without too much of a wrench.

Edited by deleted (Mon 13-May-13 11:05:35)

In reply to a post by MrTAToad2:

I can see people moving onto Linux soon...

No idea what happened to my post, maybe I did not click on post

anyway, I am trying to go Linux, I got Mint on my laptop, but it is not used that often, when I do it is only from browsing and typing letters.

This desktop is a bit more of a pain, lack of software. i am also trying to find a decent Distro, I tried open suse yesterday, but it did nto like my network, came up with something about it being incompatible in this version. so I am now downloading Debian , if that is not want I want, then I will try Mint again but with the Mate Ui not the Cinnamon one.


i don't like Gnome as it stands now and the Ubuntu UI is worse than Metro if that is possible.

At least more software developers are releasing proper games for Linux

Just tacked onto this post but not replying in particular.... The media have a lot to explain about this recent "u-turn" nonsense they have been talking about... the amount of people that have been talking about it to me at work it incredible, naturally, they have all been told that the articles are misguided and untrue and they will be getting Windows 8 on their machines regardless.

Good for them. My wife has just got a new laptop and it came with Windows 8. After 5 minutes showing how it worked she now loves it. She says its faster than her old windows 7 64 bit machine and easier to use. I just put on Classic Start Menu but most of the time she stays in the Start screen. It's silly complaining about Windows 8 until you have used it for a while and then it will become second nature. Most fo the time it seems the same old arguments used when changing form windows 3 to windows 95 then to windows xp then to windows 7 etc. Learn to adapt and change if you want to survive.

In reply to a post by MrTAToad2:

At least more software developers are releasing proper games for Linux

Are they? it is good if they are, but it is not games I am interested in.

In reply to a post by cavillas:

Good for them. My wife has just got a new laptop and it came with Windows 8. After 5 minutes showing how it worked she now loves it. She says its faster than her old windows 7 64 bit machine and easier to use. I just put on Classic Start Menu but most of the time she stays in the Start screen. It's silly complaining about Windows 8 until you have used it for a while and then it will become second nature. Most fo the time it seems the same old arguments used when changing form windows 3 to windows 95 then to windows xp then to windows 7 etc. Learn to adapt and change if you want to survive.

If you stay in the start screen, then you are not using the full features of windows, in fact if you stay int he start screen then you may as well got for something that runs windows RT.

Of cause it is faster, because Metro have such a simple interface. I do wonder what people find in the Metro UI to stay in it.


I tried Metro and to be honest the only tile I used was the desktop tile, none of the others was useful for what I wanted to do. i don't want to use internet Explorer, I don't want use Hotmail or outlook as it is called now.

I need to be on the desktop to write a letter with Libre office, I need to be on the desktop to edit videos, I need to be on the desktop to send emails, I need to be on the desktop to use photoshop, I need to be on the desktop to watch videos and listen to music in the application I want to use, not what MS think I should use. So no point in using the Metro UI

sure not eveyone is the same, but more than 4 million people have downloaded some sort of start menu so they don't have to see the metro UI.

Are they? it is good if they are, but it is not games I am interested in.

That's a shame!

Why should we adapt just because someone else thinks we should?

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Why should we adapt just because someone else thinks we should?

Just think if those monkeys had the same outlook we would never have got where we are today But then maybe that would be better.

There is change for change's sake and change for necessity. The former is not good; the latter is very good.

Yey! Microsoft confirmed it will be free and available through the App Store...

Good.

Touch is the future, but Touch PC's have failed due to a lack of OS. Here we have an OS capable of Touch. Now we need the PC's.

And with the rise of RSI

Edited by deleted (Tue 14-May-13 23:44:31)

Hopefully will allow user to upgrade without creating a Microsoft account

I wonder whether it will also push the user to a desktop executable or something. Presumably this upgrade will be a few hundred MB in size, I am not sure how well the app store would deal with that (as it currently is).

People of little faith on here!

Edited by Pipexer (Tue 14-May-13 21:56:24)

In reply to a post by MrTAToad2:

Are they? it is good if they are, but it is not games I am interested in.

That's a shame!

video editing is more my game, LOL. i mucked about with Kdenlive and seems to be the best one, but it is not a Vegas by a long way.

I know it is free, but i don't mind paying if it is good.

In reply to a post by MrTAToad2:

Yey! Microsoft confirmed it will be free and available through the App Store...

so do that mean people have to have a MS account? some apps can be downloaded from the app shop with out a MS account, but I bet this update will require one. that is a way for MS to get people to sign up


i got a MS account, well a old hotmail account, but I am getting rid of it soon, I don't use it now Messenger is gone.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Touch is the future, but Touch PC's have failed due to a lack of OS. Here we have an OS capable of Touch. Now we need the PC's.

Touch maybe is the future for tablet type machines, but not for home use to be honest. Try typing on a touch screen for a long time and you will realise why.

The future is voice recognition, but that will still be many years before it becomes the norm. Saying that I know someone who uses Dragon and it is amazing, never loses a word.

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

Hopefully will allow user to upgrade without creating a Microsoft account

I wonder whether it will also push the user to a desktop executable or something. Presumably this upgrade will be a few hundred MB in size, I am not sure how well the app store would deal with that (as it currently is).

People of little faith on here!

i just put about a MS account, I did not see your post. My windows 8 machine don't even have access to the Metro ui, as i use some software to knock it out, not just hide it, but knock it out.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

The future is voice recognition, but that will still be many years before it becomes the norm. Saying that I know someone who uses Dragon and it is amazing, never loses a word.

I was using my voice recognition dictation tonight. Still in training, but it's not bad. I'll take a guess that the future will be retina focus eye piece type technology, akin to aircraft targeting systems, coupled with voice. Look at the app/menu/item and give the command.

That may be in a far off future, but for now the future is touch, as shown by the iPad etc.

Typists can't use Touch screens as they are not responsive enough for 80+ wpm and as others have stated - RSI.

Edited by broadband66 (Wed 15-May-13 11:30:26)

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Typists can't use Touch screens as they are not responsive enough for 80+ wps and as others have stated - RSI.

I doubt if many keyboards could handle 80+ wps either

Granted!

Data could.

I agree with home use not always suitable for touch.

First I sit away from the screen so can't touch it.
Second (and most important) anyone trying to put a finger-mark on my screen will lose their digit!

I thought getting rid of Start button a terrible idea.
But I'm glad they did, as it made me use a third-party one, that I feel is much better than the MS one.

I believe it's possible to buy a number of peripheral devices for various specialised requirements, such as keyboards for typists.

A lot of the negative comments lately in this thread are reminiscent of when the iPad was launched.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

I was using my voice recognition dictation tonight. Still in training, but it's not bad. I'll take a guess that the future will be retina focus eye piece type technology, akin to aircraft targeting systems, coupled with voice. Look at the app/menu/item and give the command.

Voice recognition never seems to work for me, not as well as it does for my mate,but then he have got a clear voice.

In reply to a post by DavidFinbarr:

I thought getting rid of Start button a terrible idea.
But I'm glad they did, as it made me use a third-party one, that I feel is much better than the MS one.

the problem with third party ones is that they may not work when Ms does a update, as been proved with windows 8.1

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Voice recognition never seems to work for me

I'm always worried that it might work too well, and the computer try to do what I sometimes suggest it does

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I believe it's possible to buy a number of peripheral devices for various specialised requirements, such as keyboards for typists.

You mean like the naff ones that you can get for the surface?

I know someone who tried to type on both of them and failed.

A lot of the negative comments lately in this thread are reminiscent of when the iPad was launched.

Touch screen have it place,, i admit I did not like the idea of touch screens on mobile phones, but I am ok with them now, but I don't like tablets, I have tried two and they are not for me.

Touch screens for desktops, nah, I don't think so. I know of someone who got a all in one with a touch screen and they never use the touch screen part as it means reaching out.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

That may be in a far off future, but for now the future is touch, as shown by the iPad etc.

Google glass?

I think this illustrates my point rather well

The product - which is still a long way from being ready for consumers...

...you need to learn a series of touch commands on the arm of the glasses...

In reference to www.pcworld.com/article/2040309/microsoft-outs-the-new-features-in-...:

The Start button is back�but the Start menu isn�t.

Instead, clicking the old familar button will dump you into the modern UI Start screen. While the new feature is notable for adding a helpful visual cue to an operating system rife with hidden menus, it isn�t exactly what people begging for the return of the Start button were looking for.

One much-clamored-for, keyboard- and mouse-friendly feature will be making a debut in Windows 8.1, however. The update adds the option to boot directly to the desktop, bypassing the modern UI start screen completely. (Actually, you can boot into several alternate locations, including the All Apps view.)

This is all still months away from release and who knows what MS will do by then, especially if they have an awful E3 over the Xbone.

As for me I have started the migration over to Zorin Linux which is a win 7 interface over Ubunutu 12.04.

So far going very well and the wife decided to give it a go and even though she has to boot it up on a 64GB memory key she says it is very easy to get to grips with and is running it now almost all the time.

And the only thing I am using win 7 for now is my wife's sewing machine, games and video capture as I still have to get the right drivers for the video capture card and haven't tried WINE on the sewing machine software yet.