No apologies for raising Win 10 again

If Win 10 is as fast, efficient , easy to use and orgasmically wonderful as MS insists on telling me daily, why am I being forced to post this on my wife's Win 8.1 laptop?

My own Dell XPS 8700 desktop dates back to October 2013. It is grossly over-configured for my purposes, with an embarrassing amount of spare disk space etc, and has coped well with Win 8.1.

Foolishly I succumbed to relentless MS pressure last night. The Win upgrade to Win 10 Home has been stuck at 32% (6% of 'installing features and drivers') for way over 12hrs. No software or hardware incompatibilities flagged up. In fact no nice helpful messages at all.

I'm told that the only response for me is a hard power down. Fingers crossed . . .

Problems can and do happen from time to time, shame it has happened with new bit of kit but there is a good chance it will be OK next time round.

It should recover (it usually will give it a 2nd go, and then if that fails, it willl revert) OK if you power off and turn back on, it is designed to be highly robust and fully able to revert if problems arise.

Personally I would make sure BIOS etc is all up to date etc and then give it another go, but maybe you have had your fingers burnt now...

There are currently a lot of issues with Windows Update and, as far as I can tell, it affects all releases. It has borked my old Win 7 laptop although my desktop (that I am using now) is fine. I shall probably have to do a reinstall on the laptop.

I finally upgraded my Mum's laptop at the weekend as it was having a few issues with Win 8.1 (mostly that the Windows update daemon was taking up about 50% of the processor). Had to do some Win 8.1 patches first before it would run (it kept failing without a useful error message but after doing patches it stopped complaining). Upgrade took about 2 hours all told I think. Just a matter now of waiting to see if she gets any problems with it - fingers crossed.

Thanks folks. Back on 8.1 after a hard power down and up.

Interesting to see in a very recent thread here that some have identified Bluetooth as a possible source of problems.

Edited by deleted (Mon 21-Dec-15 21:37:59)

In reply to a post by spranglebolt:

Thanks folks. Back on 8.1 after a hard power down and up.

Interesting to see in a very recent thread here that some have identified Bluetooth Microsoft as a possible source of problems.

Fixed that for you.

I think we already know your aversion to Windows 10. That comment really adds little to the thread other than to reinforce your prejudices and is not helpful.

It is equally valid to conclude that the existence of the thread supports my objective and unprejudiced view .

Reminds me of the ryhme:

There was a little girl
Who had a little curl
Right in the middle of her forehead.

And when she was good,
She was very, very good;
But when she was bad, she was horrid.

The OP must be incompetent or an idiot then, as espoused by someone who agrees with you about my opinion of Win 10.

My view is that the OP is a normal, intelligent person who has come up against a major problem with Win 10 a full six months after its general release. It won't even install on his system. He is (presumably) not competent to download and create a clean install disc, then backup all his applications and their data, do a clean install, and reload everything with everything working fine at the end.

Like millions of others. As opposed to the few hundred thousand who relish the challenge.

You can all live in cloud-geek land if you wish, but I defy you to find the same volume of posters reporting such problems with Win 7 or win 8 ujpgrades from earlier systems.

Windows 10 is not supposed to be for geeks who enjoy the challenges of being early adopters. Isn't that what the pre-release Insider or whatever it was called programme was about? It was supposed to be ready for unleashing in July on normal people with zilch knowledge other than the ability to follow the instructions given by Microsoft.

It isn't ready, even now. It frequently fails to upgrade, and quite often fails to update itself once installed. Quite apart from bugs within it that are generating vast numbers of updates.

Deny, deny and deny all you like. The problem reports continue.

I wasn't criticising the OP.

However, although the experience related supports my opinion, you criticise me for saying so.

Cloud-cuckoo land.

Find me the similar problems with Win 7 and Win 8. Most complaints were just about dislike of the GUI revisions. They did what they said on the tin.

I wasn't criticising you either. I was merely commenting on the vagaries of Windows (and computers in general, I suppose).

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

It is equally valid to conclude that the existence of the thread supports my objective and unprejudiced view .

Yes because Microsoft are automatically to blame for a faulty bluetooth device driver, aren't they?

To extrapolate like that from a single complaint is a little unscientific. To counter the OP, I have four Windows 10 installations that have no significant problems (I don't have any OS installation that doesn't have some problem).

Therefore we can conclude that the OP's experience is a minority one? That would be a pretty stupid conclusion to draw from 5 installations. My experience with computers is that if someone is determined that things will go wrong they almost certainly will. You see it all the time with people trying to install Linux. You never see it with OS X (well, rarely) because Apple users are convinced their systems are perfect.

Now you are saying that only a few hundreds of thousands of people have successfully installed Windows 10 whereas millions have failed to do so?

Find me the similar problems with Win 7 and Win 8.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/10109-63-error-i...
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/632-73-problem-i...

That was easy!

To be fair there were fewer issues with upgrades on Win 7 and Win 8. But, there was a reason for this...

Microsoft charged for Win 7 and Win 8 upgrades. The majority of people didn't attempt an upgrade. Most people just waited until they replaced their device rather than do an upgrade. Problems with device drivers and software compatibility were significant with Win 7.

So, in a way it is entirely Microsoft's fault as they have encouraged people to upgrade to Win 10 for free for the first year. That means a lot of people will attempt an upgrade to get the free one rather than just waiting until they eventually replace their computer.

There is a certain amount of truth in that, although I would still contend that we are seeing a hysterical overreaction to the reporting of Windows 10 problems. As I demonstrated, it is easy to find exactly the same complaints made at the time about installing earlier versions of Windows (and a quick Google will reveal many, many more).

Personally I think that it's a good thing that Microsoft have offered a free upgrade to Windows 10. Those who don't like it don't have to take up the offer, but constantly sniping with the same inaccurate comments is not helpful. Others have provided helpful suggestions as to the solution of potential problems and this seems to me a more useful approach.

If Windows 10 is so fundamentally flawed it is difficult to understand how the computer manufacturers manage to install it successfully.

I think that we are seeing the usual problems that attend any O/S release, except that they are being compounded by problems with Windows Update. Microsoft has issued some bad patches to Windows Update that, in some circumstances, make it hog system resources and run very, very slowly (if at all). These problems are present on Windows 7 and all subsequent releases, and can manifest themselves during attempted upgrades to Windows 10 since this process also uses the Windows Update service. Routine updates to Windows 7 through 8.1 are also affected.

Microsoft seems to have been very coy about this problem and no explanation or definitive solution has been offered. Various "fixes" are available but they all involve using Windows Update, the very software that is broken. There is, of course, the Windows Update Stand-Alone tool (WUSA). The only problem with this is that it insists on the Windows Update service being started and it is this that slows everything to a crawl. It ought to run in safe mode but it won't since the Windows Update service can't be started in safe mode. What a dog's breakfast!

My laptop (running Windows 7 32-bit) is busy updating itself. It has taken all night to decide that 37 important updates need to be applied. It claims to have downloaded 76% of 155 MB but is timing out since the update service is making it run much more slowly than usual. Since typing the last sentence it has jumped to 96%, so maybe it will start applying them soon. I shall leave it running for as long as it takes. Hopefully, normal (Windows Update) service will then be resumed.

As for Windows 10, it would be silly not to try it out while the free upgrade is on offer, but I think that I shall keep my current machines on Windows 7 for as long as is practicable. This is what I did when I was using Windows 2000. Except for having to replace my favourite scanner (since Canon were too mean to provide 64-bit drivers), the eventual move to Windows 7 SR1 was a problem-free experience. Why buy new gloves if your old gloves are perfectly serviceable and fit you like... well, a comfortable pair of old gloves?

In reply to a post by micksharpe:

Why buy new gloves if your old gloves are perfectly serviceable and fit you like... well, a comfortable pair of old gloves?

At the weekend my son emailed to ask if I'd upgrade his Win 7 PC to Win 10 as he wasn't comfortable doing it himself. The fact that he lives in Kent is clearly one problem. I asked why he wanted to upgrade? What was there in win 10 that he truly needed? And he should bear in mind that in effect Win 7 will be supported till January 2020 by which time his PC will have died/been replaced.

He came back and said that perhaps he didn't need Win 10. Knowing him I'm fairly sure that he wanted Win 10 because it was new, and because it was free.

But, as he now admits, he doesn't need it.

I wouldn't be surprised if that scenario applies to quite a number of people.

For me, multiple desktops are enough to justify the upgrade. I can't think why it has taken Microsoft so long to implement what has been common in Linux distributions - and even OS X - for ages. But I'm glad to see that, having done it, they have done it right.

As a developer I am also interested in the new APIs that are present (Universal Applications) that allow rich applications to be built that will work seamlessly across a range of devices. Obviously software publishers are going to use these new APIs so we will soon have a good range of software that just won't work on earlier versions of Windows.

And, whilst on the subject of phones, the integration of Windows with mobiles is now very good. And Cortana is fun too - although present in a primitive form on 8.1 it is much enhanced on 10.

I've still got my comfortable old gloves but I find that I haven't put them on for a couple of months now; the new ones are warmer and fit me better.

In an attempt to build a bridge over troubled water, I should record that a couple of the much loved progs I run are somewhat ancient - rather like me. And one piece of kit is a USB transcription turntable which may just possibly, maybe, perhaps, be in question?.

When I tried the upgrade a few months ago it reported, I think, three incompatibilities. Of course the references given meant nothing to me. As someone has identified, I am a simple soul, so I abandoned.

Thinking that after a time during which MS had done a major update it must be worth another go I gave in to their waterboarding. This time, however, nothing was identified as a potential prob. The procedure just came to a full stop, period, endof.

What also gets up my nose is that, although I deleted it, BigBrother insists on downloading the upgrade on to my pc again. And sends messages almost daily about how splendid it all is - e.g. even since this abortive exercise "designed to work with your pcs, printers, etc", "up and running fast".

Edited by deleted (Tue 22-Dec-15 12:07:55)

OK. Windows Update has finished updating my laptop with the latest hot-fixes for Windows 7. It's only taken 10 hours to download and install 155 MB of updates. All is sweetness and light... except that I am now getting nag-ware to upgrade to Windows 10. "Upgrade now or upgrade later." No other choice is offered.

Is there not a close button on the dialog?

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

Is there not a close button on the dialog?

There is... and there's also the option of moving to Apple or Linux, but Microsoft don't tell you that.

Microsoft endorse Linux and will quite happily tell you all about it: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-gb/documentation/arti...

I suspect if they started to suggest that people buy expensive new hardware to run OS X there would be complaints.

Article about it: http://www.forbes.com/sites/amitchowdhry/2015/12/21/...

I don't think the window appears unless the W10 tray icon is clicked though.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

I don't think the window appears unless the W10 tray icon is clicked though.

It does appear, unasked and often, I can assure you.

There is an update to disable it but I'm not sure that I can bring myself to apply it right now. Maybe when my blood pressure's gone down a bit...

Edited by micksharpe (Tue 22-Dec-15 13:18:59)

Your first link points to a non genuine copy issue.

In reply to a post by micksharpe:

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

I don't think the window appears unless the W10 tray icon is clicked though.

It does appear, unasked and often, I can assure you.

There is an update to disable it but I'm not sure that I can bring myself to apply it right now. Maybe when my blood pressure's gone down a bit...

That's odd.

I simply went to the Task Bar properties and set the Win 10 icon to "Hide icon and notifications". Not been bothered by it since.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I simply went to the Task Bar properties and set the Win 10 icon to "Hide icon and notifications". Not been bothered by it since.

I don't see that option here (on either machine). I can hide the icon but Windows will restore it to the system tray soon enough.

No it doesn't.

Anyway, you don't have to be a Google Guru to find posts where people had problems installing Windows 7. I just picked the first of thousands of hits.

Right click on a blank part of the task bar, (not the system tray section where the icon is - that only gives you the System Icons).

At the bottom, below the "Lock the Taskbar" is Properties. In the Properties is "Notification area - Customize". Scroll down the list - it's GWX. I get three options. Show both, Hide both, Show only notifications. With the third I think a notification does cause the icon to return.

I am on Win 8.1 of course, maybe it only arrived with that (or 8).

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 23-Dec-15 00:23:44)

Seems like the people helping think it does!

The person being "helped" doesn't.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

There is a certain amount of truth in that, although I would still contend that we are seeing a hysterical overreaction to the reporting of Windows 10 problems. As I demonstrated, it is easy to find exactly the same complaints made at the time about installing earlier versions of Windows (and a quick Google will reveal many, many more).

Personally I think that it's a good thing that Microsoft have offered a free upgrade to Windows 10. Those who don't like it don't have to take up the offer, but constantly sniping with the same inaccurate comments is not helpful. Others have provided helpful suggestions as to the solution of potential problems and this seems to me a more useful approach.

If Windows 10 is so fundamentally flawed it is difficult to understand how the computer manufacturers manage to install it successfully.

A spot on post.

TBH, I had no problems installing Windows 8 and no hardware or software problem. My problem with Windows 8 was and still is that it looks awful and MS made a right dogs breath of it. Stick a decent start menu on it and get rid of the side bars and it was far more usable.
Still awful to look at, but usable.

Windows 10, on the other hand looks worse than Windows 8, the start menu is awful and MS saying it is back is spreading the truth a bit. It is full of spy rubbish and the modern apps get in the way.
There is an advantage in going from windows 7 to 8.1 as windows 8.1 is better with memory, it boots up and shuts down faster and going from Windows 7 to 10 have a advantage, but I do not see any advantage going from windows 8.1 to 10.

Fan boys will always write something positive about their beloved OS.

Manufactures have to put the OS on and will find the best way to do that. They don't have to deal with external device driver issues.

I'm not installing W10 but MS insist on letting me know that I don't have it and do I want it.

In this day and age one would have thought a multi billion $ company could have got things done a bit better.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Fan boys will always write something positive about their beloved OS.

Indeed. We see great examples of that here with Windows 7 fan boys. It used to be XP fan boys. In a few years the same people will be objecting to Windows 15 and harking back to the "good old days" of Windows 12.

The problem is anyone remotely positive about something is considered a fanboy.

Many people will have installed Win 10 without issue. A number of people have had some issues. The Internet is not a good place to work out the real numbers of either group as most people do not post their experiences.

Personally I have now installed it on 3 machines and have had some sort of issue with all 3 (and it is actually 3 different issues). However, most OSs have similar problems therefore whether Windows 10 is better/worse than any other initial OS release is difficult to judge on the info available - in many ways each release will appear worse due to the ever increasing use of the Internet which makes any issues more visible.

I admit, I was very reluctant to let go of Windows XP Pro, but once I had W7 Pro on a new machine, I liked it better.

That said, I do not look forward to having no choice regarding having to use Windows 10 - I still use a full sized, large screen desktop, and for me personally, W10 would be better suited to a hand held device.

Win 7 is still supported until 2020. Who knows what MS will have done to Windows by then...

In reply to a post by TrishaH:

for me personally, W10 would be better suited to a hand held device.

Why?

What about Windows 10 makes it more suitable for a handheld device than a desktop? I really don't understand comments like that.

In reply to a post by ian72:

Win 7 is still supported until 2020. Who knows what MS will have done to Windows by then...

That's good to know - but I wonder if they'll (computer company) install W7 if I need a new computer.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

Why?
What about Windows 10 makes it more suitable for a handheld device than a desktop? I really don't understand comments like that.

Just what I've seen so far - seems more geared towards tablets and smaller notebook computers.
When our eldest gets his desktop set up again (since moving house) I'll take a closer look if he uses W10.
For now, both sons use iPads.
That said - I'd happily try a Surface Pro, but only as a portable device for general things other than work.

I'm the type of person who likes to have the choice, and run with the thought that if it's working well for me, then why change it.

Also, I consider myself lucky to have had 3 o/s's and still have my obsolete website programme working - I think I'd be pushing my luck to have it happen with W10.

I may be mistaken but it does sound to me as if you haven't actually tried Windows 10, which may explain some confusion.

Windows 10 can run in either desktop mode (as it would on a normal computer) when it acts much like any other version of Windows, or in tablet mode (as it would on a tablet) when it acts more like a tablet OS. And the great thing is that on these hybrids with detachable keyboards, or screens that fold back, it automatically switches to the appropriate mode.

All this talk of it being a "tablet operating system" is just that; just talk. That was certainly more true of Windows 8, but Microsoft have learnt their lessons from that.

but I wonder if they'll (computer company) install W7 if I need a new computer.

Few companies will be offering Win 7 on new devices so you may have to jump at some point if you don't own a "full" copy of Win 7 or are not up to installing it on new PCs (it is also possible that some hardware on new devices may not have Win 7 drivers in the coming months/years).

Win 10 itself is actually quite good on a non-touch device. It is much less geared to touch than Win 8 was.

My reluctance at the moment is I have had minor issues on all 3 devices I have upgraded - one actually is a major issue but I haven't bothered sorting it yet. However, give it another 3-6 months and hopefully MS will have improved it further. I will upgrade all of my devices before the 12 months is up (unless of course MS announce an extension in which case I might leave it longer).

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

I may be mistaken but it does sound to me as if you haven't actually tried Windows 10, which may explain some confusion.

True - as I said, when one of our sons gets his desktop set up again, I'll take a closer look
For now, from what I read in reviews and from users, there seems to be divided views, so I'll wait until I can try it.

Windows 10 can run in either desktop mode (as it would on a normal computer) when it acts much like any other version of Windows, or in tablet mode (as it would on a tablet) when it acts more like a tablet OS. And the great thing is that on these hybrids with detachable keyboards, or screens that fold back, it automatically switches to the appropriate mode.

All this talk of it being a "tablet operating system" is just that; just talk. That was certainly more true of Windows 8, but Microsoft have learnt their lessons from that.

All makes it sound more user friendly then!

I do like the look of the Surface Pro because I always prefer a keyboard & mouse to prodding at a screen

In reply to a post by ian72:

but I wonder if they'll (computer company) install W7 if I need a new computer.

Few companies will be offering Win 7 on new devices so you may have to jump at some point if you don't own a "full" copy of Win 7 or are not up to installing it on new PCs (it is also possible that some hardware on new devices may not have Win 7 drivers in the coming months/years).

I seem to recall asking them about having an option for W7 when I do need a new computer, and think they said exactly that.
Also, MS charge them a lot more once they have a new o/s available.
No saying when this computer will start to wobble - it's had a lot of use - so the longer it lasts, the less time for support of W7!

Don't suppose there's a 'virtual machine' for W7?

Win 10 itself is actually quite good on a non-touch device. It is much less geared to touch than Win 8 was.

My reluctance at the moment is I have had minor issues on all 3 devices I have upgraded - one actually is a major issue but I haven't bothered sorting it yet. However, give it another 3-6 months and hopefully MS will have improved it further. I will upgrade all of my devices before the 12 months is up (unless of course MS announce an extension in which case I might leave it longer).

Can't see me changing to a touch screen if I still have a standard desktop, so perhaps I'll find it OK when the time comes.

As you say though, wonder what they'll be challenging us with next

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

Windows 10 can run in either desktop mode (as it would on a normal computer) when it acts much like any other version of Windows...

I quite agree.

Looking at my laptop on the table behind me, the desktop looks almost identical to Windows 7, the laptop's predecessor. The only visible difference is a couple of extra items on the Task Bar (which can be removed if so desired), and slightly different looking icons in the Status Area. Sure, click the Start button - and quite a few people I know never use Start - and it's different but can readily be made Windows 7 like.

See this screen print of my Windows 10 laptop.

In everyday use Windows 10 is just like Windows 7. Under the bonnet there are differences and some of the controls are presented differently, but no more so than, say, Windows 7 over Windows XP.

I've had problems with Windows 10 which I've mentioned elsewhere and will update in a few days, but they've all been a consequence of the update from 7 to 10, not a problem with 10 itself.

I certainly intend to continue to use Windows 10.

In reply to a post by cheshire_man:

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

Windows 10 can run in either desktop mode (as it would on a normal computer) when it acts much like any other version of Windows...

I quite agree.

Looking at my laptop on the table behind me, the desktop looks almost identical to Windows 7, the laptop's predecessor. The only visible difference is a couple of extra items on the Task Bar (which can be removed if so desired), and slightly different looking icons in the Status Area. Sure, click the Start button - and quite a few people I know never use Start - and it's different but can readily be made Windows 7 like. See this screen print of my Windows 10 laptop.

That looks a lot better than screenshots I've seen of W8, so perhaps I've been influenced by that!
Is the 'start' button the white windows icon extreme left?
I use the start button a fair bit daily for searches, favourites and disk cleanup.

I use the Snipping Tool a fair bit too - does W10 have that?

In everyday use Windows 10 is just like Windows 7. Under the bonnet there are differences and some of the controls are presented differently, but no more so than, say, Windows 7 over Windows XP.

I found W7 interesting to use right after XP, but in a good way

Yes, snipping tool is there

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Yes, snipping tool is there

Great! Thanks.

It's sounding more user friendly to me now!

In reply to a post by TrishaH:

Is the 'start' button the white windows icon extreme left?

Yes, that icon is the Windows 10 standard image, used during boot as well.

In reply to a post by TrishaH:

I use the start button a fair bit daily for searches, favourites and disk cleanup

Just click Start and type 'app name'

In reply to a post by TrishaH:

I use the Snipping Tool a fair bit too - does W10 have that?

Yes, as mentioned, just click Start and type 'snip', I've never used the tool but it's there.

All sounds good - thanks!

In reply to a post by TrishaH:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Yes, snipping tool is there

Great! Thanks.

It's sounding more user friendly to me now!

It is not difficult to use if you use other versions of Windows, the start menu is not the best, to pin stuff on it like you do on Windows 7 you have the awful tiles, but you can get a third party start menu to make it more like Windows 7.
The settings are split apart, you have got the control panel and you have got settings, that is a bit of a pain.

The look of Windows 10 is not that nice, very flat and dull and also some things that are not finished, like the context menus.

My view and a lot of other people is that Windows 10 is still in beta and the wider public is being used as a test bed, also watch the spying in there, if you do want to have MS spying on you then turn everything off, like getting to know you and cortana. Best is to use third party software to do it.

Windows 109 is better than Windows 7 in that it is faster, runs smoother, have better memory management, but I do not think it have much advantage over 8.1 for joe public anyway

If you can't remember the name of the Program/App (only use it once in a blue moon) is there a list similar to "All Programs"?

In reply to a post by broadband66:

If you can't remember the name of the Program/App (only use it once in a blue moon) is there a list similar to "All Programs"?

Yes, just click "All apps" in the Start Menu.

And, if you can remember the first letter or two of the name, it is very simple to hone in on it.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

And, if you can remember the first letter or two of the name, it is very simple to hone in on it.

Yep. I like how you can click (e.g.) the "A" heading to get "zoomed out" to a higher level, allowing you to "zoom in" to a specific letter.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

I may be mistaken but it does sound to me as if you haven't actually tried Windows 10, which may explain some confusion.

Windows 10 can run in either desktop mode (as it would on a normal computer) when it acts much like any other version of Windows, or in tablet mode (as it would on a tablet) when it acts more like a tablet OS. And the great thing is that on these hybrids with detachable keyboards, or screens that fold back, it automatically switches to the appropriate mode.

All this talk of it being a "tablet operating system" is just that; just talk. That was certainly more true of Windows 8, but Microsoft have learnt their lessons from that.

I installed it in August on both my 6 year old desktop and my wife's 6 year old laptop - both Acers. No issues, just some settings and default programmes etc needed some fine tuning to suit our preferences.

I took the plunge over Christmas on my main PC.

Before I updated win7 to Win10 I did some house cleaning and fully backed up the PC. Downloaded and ran the update. Was very surprised almost everything worked first time. Just had to rename some of the network interfaces for Virtual box clients and all was well.

Also did the kids laptop.

So far, I have not had any problems. I was really glad I did the windows insider stuff mid 2015, so the new layout / apps names was not completely strange.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by TrishaH:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Yes, snipping tool is there

Great! Thanks.

It's sounding more user friendly to me now!

It is not difficult to use if you use other versions of Windows, the start menu is not the best, to pin stuff on it like you do on Windows 7 you have the awful tiles, but you can get a third party start menu to make it more like Windows 7.

I know that ads showing the screen with the tiles was what immediately put me off it. If the desktop can look more like W7, then that's OK.

The settings are split apart, you have got the control panel and you have got settings, that is a bit of a pain.

The look of Windows 10 is not that nice, very flat and dull and also some things that are not finished, like the context menus.

My view and a lot of other people is that Windows 10 is still in beta and the wider public is being used as a test bed, also watch the spying in there, if you do want to have MS spying on you then turn everything off, like getting to know you and cortana. Best is to use third party software to do it.

I suppose appearance is something to get used to, but I don't like how there's always things that need to be ironed out and corrected after people start complaining about things that are clunky or unsafe.
Cortana on a phone was another thing I didn't like seeing in the TV ads. Would certainly dispense with that.

Windows 109 is better than Windows 7 in that it is faster, runs smoother, have better memory management, but I do not think it have much advantage over 8.1 for joe public anyway

Advantages or not, seems we don't get a choice ..after all, we're only the customer Still, I can sort of see that keeping 2 O/s's updated would be hard for MS!

There are no ads on the start screen. That's part of the misinformation spread about 10.

If you wish you can have suggestions of apps feom the app store that you might be interested in, based on what you have downloaded already, which can be a useful feature. You can turn this off if you don't like it.

Still, I can sort of see that keeping 2 O/s's updated would be hard for MS!

MS have at most points been keeping 3 or 4 OS's up to date. At present they support/update Win 7, Win 8.1 and Win 10. Those 3 will be supported until 2020. If MS kept to their normal cycle (which they say they aren't) then another Windows OS would be released before Win 7 is retired in which case they would be updating 4 OS's at the same time.

TrishH didn't say the Start screen had ads. She said "ads showing the screen with the tiles".

A very different thing.

In reply to a post by cheshire_man:

"ads showing the screen with the tiles".

That phrase doesn't really make sense, but I took it to mean the screen that shows live tiles. In other words, the Start Screen. This is the only place (as far as I know) that the FUD-meisters have (wrongly) stated that ads are displayed.

What screen do you think she is talking about?

I am assuming it is advertisements in the media that show screen shots.

Ah - I see what you mean. I haven't seen such advertisements from Microsoft, but I can see that they would be a little misleading as they couldn't demonstrate the dynamic aspect of live tiles - which is pretty much the whole point of them.

But you hardly ever have to see that Start Screen if you don't want to. I never much used the Start Menu in 7 as I had all the programs I normally used pinned to the taskbar or in folders on the desktop; I work much the same way with 10.

Reading the paragraph rather than isolating half of it helps clarify what she meant. Sentences in paragraph are generally associated. That's what paragraphs do.

Though I read it as Ian does anyway.

Thanks for your helpful input.

Anything useful to say about the actual question?

This what I have never understood about Live Tiles. Anyone using the desktop in 7 or 8 doesn't see them anyway and is far more likely to leave the machine resting with at least one window open that revert to the Start screen.

For instance, I always have at least one browser window and my email client open. The only time I switch from there is to use MS Solitaire, and when not playing I swipe back to Desktop.

What happens on 10? How do live tiles become useful without minimising everything?

Is Edge any better than the Metro version of IE11? That defeated the whole object of Windows. Utterly cumbersome to use its multiple tab function.

Which question?

What I can suggest is that you apologise to Trishah for misunderstanding her very clear post.

In reply to a post by TrishaH:

I know that ads showing the screen with the tiles was what immediately put me off it. If the desktop can look more like W7, then that's OK.

If I reinstalled Windows 10 I would use a third party menu, in fact it would be the same one I use for Windows 8.1 called startisback and yes it is all one word but that one is not free, but I think it is one of the better start menus. If you want free then Classic shell will work.
that is if MS don't try to stop people using these third party menus.

I suppose appearance is something to get used to, but I don't like how there's always things that need to be ironed out and corrected after people start complaining about things that are clunky or unsafe.

I can understand why MS went for the flat look on both 8.1 and 10 and that is so the OS can run on machines with less graphic power, but it would have been nice to be given a choice. Windows 10 is worse than Windows 8 in that manner. There is software to change the look like Windows blinds, but
(a) it is not free
(b) when I used it with XP years ago it was a resource hog, I know machines are more powerful now.


The main problem is a lot of these bugs and problems MS knew about before windows 10 was launched and yet they still launched it. this is why I say it is still beta and always will be, because they use the excuse of it being a service.
MS must think all of us was born yesterday.

Cortana on a phone was another thing I didn't like seeing in the TV ads. Would certainly dispense with that.

Cortana is disabled as default, but some of the data collection associated with it is still on, like getting to know you. I do not see Cortana being much use on a desktop, very few desktops have microphones unless you have a webcam with one and I am not sure what use it will be anyway unless you are tied into the MS environment.
You can get rid of the search box to either a icon on the task bar or just get rid of it full stop.

On a mobile phone Cortana would be as useful as Siri and Ok Google is and to be honest I think both of them are lacking. The best thing I use OK google for is to ask for the weather and to set a timer when I am baking and a alarm.

Advantages or not, seems we don't get a choice ..after all, we're only the customer Still, I can sort of see that keeping 2 O/s's updated would be hard for MS!

This we don't have a choice is what MS is looking for, which is why they are pushing Windows 10, Windows 7 will be supported until at least 2020 and Windows 8.1 another 3 years after that.
You could update to Windows 10 and then roll back to your old OS which is what I did, now I can update to Windows 10 even after the update offer ends.
A lot of people think they will extend that anyway as it is not doing as well as MS hoped, even if they keep telling us that Windows 10 is on 200 million devices, they forget to mention that includes Xbox ones, where people do not have a choice.

I will install Windows 10 again if they
(a) stop the forced downloads
(b) stopped the spying

While I am not 100% happy with Windows 8.1 and I still prefer Windows 7, I prefer it to Windows 10.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

There are no ads on the start screen. That's part of the misinformation spread about 10.

If you wish you can have suggestions of apps feom the app store that you might be interested in, based on what you have downloaded already, which can be a useful feature. You can turn this off if you don't like it.

You did not read her post correctly and she did not say anything about ads in the start screen,

But saying about that, how long will it be before it happens? At the moment they are only suggestions and you can turn them off, but how long will that last? Just think MS can advertise their newest and best Office or have a subscription for their Office 360.

If I'm right that Win 10 is to become an annual subscription product for new installations after the free period, it could be the thin end of the wedge for an advert-loaded restricted facility entry-level free version at that point.

You can choose to work in whichever way suits you best. I have never thought that increased choice in an operating system is a fault.

If someone doesn't use the Start Screen then it's layout, and live tiles, won't impact on them; if they do (particularly, obviously, tablet or phone users) then these things become an advantage.

New paradigms often bring about new methods of working; but if that doesn't suit you there's nothing to complain about.

That doesn't answer any of my questions.

I'm not here to answer questions, just to give my opinion.

I've never used IE or Edge, so I have no opinion on them.

I'm not trying to convert those who have made their minds up; but I do wish to refute misinformation that is so often seen about Windows 10 (as it was with Windows 8.1, 8, 7, Vista, XP, 2000, .... There is little new under the sun.)

Exactly.

OK. Live Tiles are a waste of time as they are visible to any serious users of the Desktop.

Fact.

They are a waste of time because they are visible? I'm not sure that I can see the sense in that statement.

Although I don't use the Start Screen by default, I do click on the Start button from time to time to get a quick overview of weather, new emails, news, calendar appointments, etc. without having to enter all the applications.

I can understand that those who haven't given Windows 10 a proper go may not appreciate them; but, as I said before, just ignore them if you don't like them. I prefer an operating system to have some features that I may not need than to lack some features that I do need.

In reply to a post by ian72:

At present they support/update Win 7, Win 8.1 and Win 10.

Windows Vista is still supported too.

Do I gather you don't use a mail client? I just look to the left to see the folder ladder in the live window, that window being largely obscured by other things that I am using. Multiple mail accounts and sub-folders and I can see exactly what is going on at a glance.

I can't imagine how live tiles are going to be better for that.

I can imagine that a live tile placed on the right of the screen with information of interest, such as currency rates or specific stock indices would be useful to me - as in the earlier Gadgets. Similarly I used to like my photograph folder 30-second or so changing display. It brought back many happy memories and often led me into going deeper. Can that be done?

I don't have, and don't like to have, my mail client, and my calendar, and my weather app, and my news app, and my photo app, and... all open at the same time. I prefer a single screen that can give me an overview of all these items in one place.

Slightly ironic as Windows 10 makes it much easier, with multiple desktops, to manage a number of open apps. But I just prefer reserving resources for what I am working on.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Windows Vista is still supported too.

True. I have tried to forget that Vista ever existed Actually, I haven't touched Vista since W7 was released and work wise we went from XP to 7 - so Vista has been off my radar for a long time now and did slip my memory.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

Slightly ironic as Windows 10 makes it much easier, with multiple desktops, to manage a number of open apps. But I just prefer reserving resources for what I am working on.

Strange - it has always seemed very easy with Windows 3.1 thru 8.1 . As long as one stayed on the Desktop away from the 7 and 8 Metro side of things.

Simply multiple windows.

I can see that for some being able to group such windows into multiple "super-windows" (desktops) could be useful, but that would only be for someone with several complex application groups running simultaneously and requiring semi-concurrent work. Hmmm.

Weather just sticks in one tab of the browser. As could a calendar. As do a couple of index trackers. Your mail client sounds more like webmail if watching it through a live tile - using resources.

I frequently have two or three multi-tabbed browser windows open simultaneously, sometimes all but one minimised, sometimes used concurrently. Alongside Windows Explorer windows. For example, the weather/news/tracker tabs can need to be separated from other tabs into a window just grouping those together, once the tab count gets inconvenient.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

There are no ads on the start screen. That's part of the misinformation spread about 10.

I should perhaps have been more precise and said 'TV' ads

In reply to a post by cheshire_man:

TrishH didn't say the Start screen had ads. She said "ads showing the screen with the tiles".A very different thing.

In reply to a post by ian72:

I am assuming it is advertisements in the media that show screen shots.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

Ah - I see what you mean. I haven't seen such advertisements from Microsoft, but I can see that they would be a little misleading as they couldn't demonstrate the dynamic aspect of live tiles - which is pretty much the whole point of them.

But you hardly ever have to see that Start Screen if you don't want to. I never much used the Start Menu in 7 as I had all the programs I normally used pinned to the taskbar or in folders on the desktop; I work much the same way with 10.

It was TV ads - one in particular showed small children, and made a statement to the effect that computers would be far easier to use as they grew up ...it showed a screen (I think on a tablet) that had brightly coloured tiles, which to me look more 'fun' or perhaps even juvenile ...which may have been partly influenced by the use of tots in the ad!

Whatever, I still don't like the appearance of the tiles for a machine intended for work purposes, as well as shopping and email (which are the main uses for my computer).

I have my programmes shortcut icons on the desktop: photo editor and organiser, CS5, Excel, itemised records spread sheet, Website prog., Lightroom, various security progs., back-up, Accounts, easy access stock records for frames & canvases, exhibitions lists, etc.
All are used daily or at least once each week.

On the taskbar, I only use Outlook, IE11, Chrome, Snipping tool & Wind. Explorer.

I do have a Windows phone, and the tiles on that are OK to use for the purpose - but I only use it for phone calls mostly. I do remember deleting a few of them.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Reading the paragraph rather than isolating half of it helps clarify what she meant. Sentences in paragraph are generally associated. That's what paragraphs do.

Though I read it as Ian does anyway.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Which question?

What I can suggest is that you apologise to Trishah for misunderstanding her very clear post.

No need - 'stuff' happens

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

If I reinstalled Windows 10 I would use a third party menu, in fact it would be the same one I use for Windows 8.1 called startisback and yes it is all one word but that one is not free, but I think it is one of the better start menus. If you want free then Classic shell will work.
that is if MS don't try to stop people using these third party menus.

I wouldn't mind having to pay for something once if MS are not prepared to give the customer a choice.

I can understand why MS went for the flat look on both 8.1 and 10 and that is so the OS can run on machines with less graphic power, but it would have been nice to be given a choice. Windows 10 is worse than Windows 8 in that manner. There is software to change the look like Windows blinds, but
(a) it is not free
(b) when I used it with XP years ago it was a resource hog, I know machines are more powerful now.

Exactly my thoughts all along - it's appearance (to me) is geared towards small screen, portable devices, and as such should be an option rather than a 'one size fits all' solution.

When I came from XP to W7, I installed the VM, and as far as I know - because I've never needed to use it - it isn't automatically used by any non-compatible programmes. I keep wondering if all will be well if I uninstall it to free up some space on the SSD (My obsolete website programme theoretically shouldn't have worked on anything from XP onwards, but apparently has/does).

The main problem is a lot of these bugs and problems MS knew about before windows 10 was launched and yet they still launched it. this is why I say it is still beta and always will be, because they use the excuse of it being a service.
MS must think all of us was born yesterday.

This is why I've never been one to jump on a new programme or o/s. I recall my son asking if I wanted upgrading to Vista, and I refused thinking I'd see how he got on with it first. Wasn't long before I was glad I didn't.

Cortana is disabled as default, but some of the data collection associated with it is still on, like getting to know you. I do not see Cortana being much use on a desktop, very few desktops have microphones unless you have a webcam with one and I am not sure what use it will be anyway unless you are tied into the MS environment.
You can get rid of the search box to either a icon on the task bar or just get rid of it full stop.

On a mobile phone Cortana would be as useful as Siri and Ok Google is and to be honest I think both of them are lacking. The best thing I use OK google for is to ask for the weather and to set a timer when I am baking and a alarm.

My first sight of Cortana was on a phone TV Ad, and someone asking it to remind them to buy a plaster for their foot! The sore foot would be reminder enough for me. Another was one for a reminder to get flowers for a wife's birthday !
If it spies too, then I definitely wouldn't want it.

I have a desktop calendar that pops up reminders for things like back-up, CC monthly payment, important appointments etc., and has date markers on birthdays etc. That's quite adequate for my needs. But, I rarely use a mobile phone anyway.

This we don't have a choice is what MS is looking for, which is why they are pushing Windows 10, Windows 7 will be supported until at least 2020 and Windows 8.1 another 3 years after that.
You could update to Windows 10 and then roll back to your old OS which is what I did, now I can update to Windows 10 even after the update offer ends.
A lot of people think they will extend that anyway as it is not doing as well as MS hoped, even if they keep telling us that Windows 10 is on 200 million devices, they forget to mention that includes Xbox ones, where people do not have a choice.

I will install Windows 10 again if they
(a) stop the forced downloads
(b) stopped the spying

While I am not 100% happy with Windows 8.1 and I still prefer Windows 7, I prefer it to Windows 10.

I very much like W7 - it does all I want it to do, and I'm sure there are hidden depths to it that I've had no need for in the almost 5 years that I've had it.
As long as this machine lasts, I'll stick with W7.
If something works well for me, then I don't risk getting a newer version/model as experience has often proved the first one to be better.
Perhaps I could get a copy of it 'just in case'

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

What I can suggest is that you apologise to Trishah for misunderstanding her very clear post.

Don't make such a fool of yourself.

As Trisha has already indicated, simple misunderstandings happen. Hardly a reason to demand an apology (unless you are trying to score points for some unconnected reason). Try to act a little more like a grown up please.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I can see that for some being able to group such windows into multiple "super-windows" (desktops) could be useful, but that would only be for someone with several complex application groups running simultaneously and requiring semi-concurrent work. Hmmm.

You're welcome to avoid a method of working that has proved to be so popular with Linux/Unix and OS X, and which Windows is now catching up with. Others may have preferences that differ from yours.

Again, if the concept of multiple desktops is too complex for you then you don't have to use them. But to berate an operating system for giving you that choice seems a little short-sighted.

Your objections to Windows 10 seem to add up to "It gives me too many options".

"just prefer reserving resources for what I am working on. "

Are you saying W10 is so resource hungry that it is of no use for multiple apps/progs running concurrently?

No. Are you?

It's lighter on resources than previous versions of Windows, but I've never been a fan of having everything but the kitchen sink open. I appreciate that you may work to a different methodology and prefer bloat.

If I can get a summary of information of interest without opening 57 varieties of application I consider it an efficient way of working.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

OK. Live Tiles are a waste of time as they are visible to any serious users of the Desktop.

Fact.

Annoying on a Windows phone, I was mucking around with my mates Windows phone and Cortana, I could not find the Cortana tile, he said under the facebook tile. Great but how can you tell it is the facebook tile as it have a load of pictures on it?

He agreed and will at some point get around to turning them off.

In reply to a post by TrishaH:

I wouldn't mind having to pay for something once if MS are not prepared to give the customer a choice.

It is only $2.99 for one computer, well worth the money and here is what it looks like and there is also a free trial.

Exactly my thoughts all along - it's appearance (to me) is geared towards small screen, portable devices, and as such should be an option rather than a 'one size fits all' solution.

Agree.

When I came from XP to W7, I installed the VM, and as far as I know - because I've never needed to use it - it isn't automatically used by any non-compatible programmes. I keep wondering if all will be well if I uninstall it to free up some space on the SSD (My obsolete website programme theoretically shouldn't have worked on anything from XP onwards, but apparently has/does).

i did that on my sister-in-laws computer as she used accounts software that would not work on Windows 7, then latter on she updated the accounts software to one that worked on Windows 7 and we took the VM off the machine, it was easy enough to do from what I remember.

This is why I've never been one to jump on a new programme or o/s. I recall my son asking if I wanted upgrading to Vista, and I refused thinking I'd see how he got on with it first. Wasn't long before I was glad I didn't.

I normally jump in feet first if i like the look of something, I did update my laptop to Vista from Xp as it was a free update, but I went back to XP and I did put in a order for Windows 7 as it was a good price before launch. I updated Windows 7 to Windows 8 because a friend of mine paid for it, I would not have other wise, but it was a good price.

I don't normally stay with old software, but I am careful with how I update. A mate of mine tends to be the opposite and will keep with old software, running Cool Edit whihc is years old, but he says it is better than Adobe rubbish Audition, he also have a very old version of paintshop pro as he knows how to use it, plus a old version of Office as he says Publisher is better on it than the newer versions.

Cortana is disabled as default, but some of the data collection associated with it is still on, like getting to know you. I do not see Cortana being much use on a desktop, very few desktops have microphones unless you have a webcam with one and I am not sure what use it will be anyway unless you are tied into the MS environment.
You can get rid of the search box to either a icon on the task bar or just get rid of it full stop.

My first sight of Cortana was on a phone TV Ad, and someone asking it to remind them to buy a plaster for their foot! The sore foot would be reminder enough for me. Another was one for a reminder to get flowers for a wife's birthday !
If it spies too, then I definitely wouldn't want it.

It got to know info about you for it to work, that is the way all these personal assistants things work.
I was at my mates place today as his living room computer had gone belly up, there was a cd playing in the CD player and I asked my phone by saying, ok google, tell me the name of this song and after a few seconds of listening it did, so I thought I would try the same with my mates Windows phone and Cortana. Again it worked, but I had to click on a button for cortana to work.

I have a desktop calendar that pops up reminders for things like back-up, CC monthly payment, important appointments etc., and has date markers on birthdays etc. That's quite adequate for my needs. But, I rarely use a mobile phone anyway.

i must admit I do use Google calender for things like that, not 100% happy with using it but it is so useful, it even tells me when to change the filter in my water jug. But that is due to a app.

I very much like W7 - it does all I want it to do, and I'm sure there are hidden depths to it that I've had no need for in the almost 5 years that I've had it.
As long as this machine lasts, I'll stick with W7.
If something works well for me, then I don't risk getting a newer version/model as experience has often proved the first one to be better.
Perhaps I could get a copy of it 'just in case'

Fair enough, but Windows 10 is better on memory management than 7 and do take less resources, maybe if I was still running 7 I would update to 10, but it would be locked down by using shut up 10 or something like that. But since I am using 8, I see no reason to update

But they are open and running, using just the same resources, if not more.

Quite how you get a summary of a number of emails on a live tile for some mysterious email client that displays on them I don't know. Is it easy to set up?

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

It is only $2.99 for one computer, well worth the money and here is what it looks like and there is also a free trial.

That looks good!

i did that on my sister-in-laws computer as she used accounts software that would not work on Windows 7, then latter on she updated the accounts software to one that worked on Windows 7 and we took the VM off the machine, it was easy enough to do from what I remember.

Does VM need to be opened and the programme run within it? I'm never sure if just the fact that it's installed causes it to be used by any programmes that need it. (I haven't read up on it for years now, so can't recall if I actually saw that explained or not).

I don't normally stay with old software, but I am careful with how I update. A mate of mine tends to be the opposite and will keep with old software, running Cool Edit whihc is years old, but he says it is better than Adobe rubbish Audition, he also have a very old version of paintshop pro as he knows how to use it, plus a old version of Office as he says Publisher is better on it than the newer versions.

I don't mind new software if it's better and easy to go back from if I don't like it, but with my website programme, it took me 82 hours over a week to build it, and I haven't a clue how I got it to actually work ..had some help to upload it to the hosting company too.
It could be a lot better now, but it works and is purely for information purposes, so as such, as long as it will work, I don't want to replace it - have neither time nor patience now

I don't use a webcam or microphone. Can the 'getting to know you' part be disabled?

i must admit I do use Google calender for things like that, not 100% happy with using it but it is so useful, it even tells me when to change the filter in my water jug. But that is due to a app.

Mine is a third party calendar (Active Desktop Calendar) - it's efficient, customisable in appearance and works well - can give infinite repeat reminders as well as one-off ones.

Fair enough, but Windows 10 is better on memory management than 7 and do take less resources, maybe if I was still running 7 I would update to 10, but it would be locked down by using shut up 10 or something like that. But since I am using 8, I see no reason to update

Seems that when I do finally need a new computer, W10 perhaps won't be too bad - I know more about it now that I've asked, so as long as I won't have to use the tiles, it should be fine

Edited by deleted (Fri 08-Jan-16 00:43:57)

The live tile is a stub of the application. So, for email the built in Win 10 email client has an icon within the start menu. That icon is actually a live tile. Because it is a stub it should use less resource than the full application. The stub will periodically check for new email (much the same way as the apps on most smart phones) and will display the number of new emails on the live tile.

Same with apps like LinkedIn. The tile is essentially a stub of the app that displays profile pictures of people you are linked to. The stub should be smaller than the full app.

Another example is the news app. It will be periodically grabbing the news headlines and displaying them on the live tile.

So, whilst these live tiles will be running they should be less resource intensive than the full app.

Thanks Ian. That answers two questions .

In reply to a post by ian72:

The stub will periodically check for new email (much the same way as the apps on most smart phones) and will display the number of new emails on the live tile.

It's slightly cleverer than that. It actually displays the subject headers of unread emails, cycling between them. In the same way the live tile for the calendar app displays today's appointments, and the weather app displays the current weather details. Etc., etc., ....

Until you actually experience live tiles in action (which seems to be something that many Windows 10 detractors haven't done) it may be difficult to appreciate how useful they are. And, for the developer, they are incredibly versatile, allowing the display of any information that you can think of on the tile. As you say, all this is done with much reduced demand on system resources - never a bad thing - and efficient use of screen real estate.

It's a shame that so much adverse comment about Windows 10 comes from people who clearly haven't tried it but are just repeating Chinese whispers from the Internet.

"No. Are you?"

No. I just quoted what you stated and asked a question.

I had access to the live tiles on Win 8/8.1 and now on Win 10. Never really were that exciting for me. I think personally they are actually less useful on Win 8.1 or 10 because you don't spend time on the start screen (at least not on a desktop/laptop). Moving away from the full start screen has reduced the usefulness of the live tiles.

I think though that live tiles give a benefit for those that want them but aren't a reason in themselves for someone to upgrade. Most people here are saying there is no point in upgrading because they don't see a big benefit - and I would not say that live tiles was that big a benefit to drive an upgrade.

That's the sort of thing I was on about with:-

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I can imagine that a live tile placed on the right of the screen with information of interest, such as currency rates or specific stock indices would be useful to me - as in the earlier Gadgets. Similarly I used to like my photograph folder 30-second or so changing display. It brought back many happy memories and often led me into going deeper. Can that be done?

However, prior to that TM said he wasn't here to answer questions, and didn't.

I can't imagine how a live tile scrolling through email headers is more convenient than, in particular anything like as quick and useful as, glancing at a folder ladder and clicking any changed ones you think may be important.

I'd certainly agree that Live Tiles, in themselves, are not an overwhelming reason to upgrade to Windows 10. It is a matter of numerous factors, probably the most important for me being the increased stability and lower use of resources. And, as a developer, the new APIs are a big draw. I can see that for many multiple desktops would also be an important contributory factor.

I don't think that I've ever upgraded to any version of an OS because of a single factor. Normally it's the stability/resources issue that is the main driving force; the changes in Windows, in that respect, over the years have been significant.

If people don't see a benefit then they are right not to upgrade. But I think they deserve to make that decision on facts rather than rumour. I think they are more likely to get that from those who have actually used the new OS.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

If people don't see a benefit then they are right not to upgrade. But I think they deserve to make that decision on facts rather than rumour. I think they are more likely to get that from those who have actually used the new OS.

It also depends on for what they use the OS.

As an App developer with virtually no choice in the matter, your view has to be inherently biased both in terms of maintaining your income and in terms of the way the new OS satisfies your very specific needs. To wit - providing facilities with which to write apps for it.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

... startisback and yes it is all one word but that one is not free, but I think it is one of the better start menus. If you want free then Classic shell will work.

As a matter of interest what makes you prefer startisback to Classic Shell?

No particular view either way, and at $2.99 it's hardly likely to break the bank, but I am interested in understanding the pros and cons.

Nice words paradigm & extrapolate, don't you think?
With your near rudeness and superior attitude to some others on this thread, it would help your position of superiority if you knew how to use apostrophes correctly.
Shouldn't be critical of others if you don't even see your own shortcomings!

Thank you for your helpful comments. Anything to say about the subject under discussion?

In reply to a post by TrishaH:

That looks good!

It is good and that price is for all versions and all updates, mind you if you want to put it on more that one computer at a time it does cost more, but still good value.

I used it on Windows 10 which really made it better and I have it on my windows 8.1, whihc made the Os usable again.

Does VM need to be opened and the programme run within it? I'm never sure if just the fact that it's installed causes it to be used by any programmes that need it. (I haven't read up on it for years now, so can't recall if I actually saw that explained or not).

VM is a operating system running on a operating system, so you have to have iut running to run anything inside it

I used to use Virtual box as it was available for Linux as well, the same sort of thing as VM, but you can use any os you like, Virtual machines are not great, but they do service a purpose, you will not get the same performance than if you ran the Os directly on hardware.

I don't mind new software if it's better and easy to go back from if I don't like it, but with my website programme, it took me 82 hours over a week to build it, and I haven't a clue how I got it to actually work ..had some help to upload it to the hosting company too.
It could be a lot better now, but it works and is purely for information purposes, so as such, as long as it will work, I don't want to replace it - have neither time nor patience now

I used to use net objects years ago, those was the days when ISPs used to give away free webspace and when sites like Geocities used to be around. As i remember it was pretty good, but a mate of mine did not like it or any of these WYSIWYG web design software as he does it using HTML code using a text editor and he says the code they produce is naff. But it done me and I found learning Forth bad enough. I still have emails toi my old AOL email address from Netobjects, so they are still going. The company name is fusions.

I don't use a webcam or microphone. Can the 'getting to know you' part be disabled?

Yes, pretty easily. but you mat porefer to use thrid party softwar software like shut up 10.

Mine is a third party calendar (Active Desktop Calendar) - it's efficient, customisable in appearance and works well - can give infinite repeat reminders as well as one-off ones.

That is a name from the past, I used to use it on Xp and windows 7 and one time when I reinstalled my computer I did not put it back on. i decided to have a look at it again and just reinstalled it as it also connects to my google calender; Very useful.

Seems that when I do finally need a new computer, W10 perhaps won't be too bad - I know more about it now that I've asked, so as long as I won't have to use the tiles, it should be fine

The core of the Os is pretty good, it is fast and efficient, which makes a change for Microsoft. My problems with Windows are the spying in it and it being too invasive, I know people say that I have a Android phone and that is just as bad, but I expect it from a smart phone and it is my choice. The look of Windows 10 is awful and it is still not complete, the context menus are still a mess. Granted the start menu can be changed at the moment.
I don't like this service idea, while I don't believe Ms will start a subscription for windows 10 which some people do, I don't agree with the fact MS can now add what they like to windows 10 and say it is part of the service.
I don't like this integration, too much with one drive, skype and Ms wanting to keep your computer to their MS account all the time. While it is optional, again how long for?

I do not like the modern app or universal apps they are called now and I found when I used Windows 10 it took a long time to get it running how I like and getting files to open the software I like.

I got Windows 10 all nice and cosy, for me and then MS updated it in November and it knocked out all my defaults and settings. I do not like the forced downloads, Windows pro users have a bit more control, but home users have very little control.

The other thing will not a part of Windows 10 is to do with it, is MS being aggressive at trying to get people to install it.
I may install it again at some point, but not for a while.

In reply to a post by cheshire_man:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

... startisback and yes it is all one word but that one is not free, but I think it is one of the better start menus. If you want free then Classic shell will work.

As a matter of interest what makes you prefer startisback to Classic Shell?

No particular view either way, and at $2.99 it's hardly likely to break the bank, but I am interested in understanding the pros and cons.

Just the way it works and the look, it seems more polished than classic shell.

In reply to a post by ian72:

I had access to the live tiles on Win 8/8.1 and now on Win 10. Never really were that exciting for me. I think personally they are actually less useful on Win 8.1 or 10 because you don't spend time on the start screen (at least not on a desktop/laptop). Moving away from the full start screen has reduced the usefulness of the live tiles.

I think though that live tiles give a benefit for those that want them but aren't a reason in themselves for someone to upgrade. Most people here are saying there is no point in upgrading because they don't see a big benefit - and I would not say that live tiles was that big a benefit to drive an upgrade.

TBH, I think live tiles are a waste of time on a computer, I put the start menu up and click on what I want, but I would never look at the tiles to see if it is going to rain. or what emails I have got, I don't think the mail app would cope with all my email addresses anyway.

Even on windows 8 before I got a star menu I never took notice of the live tiles.

No, I haven't. I generally restrict my comments to matters that concern me directly, and that I'm reasonably conversant with. That said, if I have a little time, I read current threads to "keep up". All I've managed to glean from yours are slightly snide innuendos against others. If you set yourself up as superior and oh so knowledgeable, at least have a grasp of the English language!

I was always brought up to be polite to others, and I won't reply to your rant in kind.

You seem to have made a habit of attacking other posters of late, so I don't take your rude remarks too personally. It's a shame that you don't actually have anything to add to discussions, just a wish to attack others. There's a name for that sort of behaviour....

Luckily there are a lot of posters here who are willing to take part in a reasonable discussion and have useful things to say (whether I agree with them or not).

I'd be grateful if you could try to avoid disrupting this thread further with off-topic interruptions.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

It is good and that price is for all versions and all updates, mind you if you want to put it on more that one computer at a time it does cost more, but still good value.

I used it on Windows 10 which really made it better and I have it on my windows 8.1, whihc made the Os usable again.

Worth it at the price.

VM is a operating system running on a operating system, so you have to have iut running to run anything inside it

I used to use Virtual box as it was available for Linux as well, the same sort of thing as VM, but you can use any os you like, Virtual machines are not great, but they do service a purpose, you will not get the same performance than if you ran the Os directly on hardware.

So the VM installed on my computer isn't actually doing anything unless I open a programme in it and it's running ...something I've never had to do, so could probably uninstall it!

I used to use net objects years ago, those was the days when ISPs used to give away free webspace and when sites like Geocities used to be around. As i remember it was pretty good, but a mate of mine did not like it or any of these WYSIWYG web design software as he does it using HTML code using a text editor and he says the code they produce is naff. But it done me and I found learning Forth bad enough. I still have emails toi my old AOL email address from Netobjects, so they are still going. The company name is fusions.

My site was built with Trellix 2.7 - a colleague had used it for his, so was able to answer my questions and also helped get it live. That was years back, but it's still working OK ...touch wood!

That is a name from the past, I used to use it on Xp and windows 7 and one time when I reinstalled my computer I did not put it back on. i decided to have a look at it again and just reinstalled it as it also connects to my google calender; Very useful.

I've had it for years now and find it very good - changed to the 64bit version foc when I got this current computer.

The core of the Os is pretty good, it is fast and efficient, which makes a change for Microsoft. My problems with Windows are the spying in it and it being too invasive, I know people say that I have a Android phone and that is just as bad, but I expect it from a smart phone and it is my choice. The look of Windows 10 is awful and it is still not complete, the context menus are still a mess. Granted the start menu can be changed at the moment.

Suppose when the time comes, I'll have little choice, but I'm not keen on anything that 'spies' for a start!

I don't agree with the fact MS can now add what they like to windows 10 and say it is part of the service.
I don't like this integration, too much with one drive, skype and Ms wanting to keep your computer to their MS account all the time. While it is optional, again how long for?

I'm not happy with the level of control, and would certainly want to disable it.

I do not like the modern app or universal apps they are called now and I found when I used Windows 10 it took a long time to get it running how I like and getting files to open the software I like.

That's the side of it I really don't look forward to!

I got Windows 10 all nice and cosy, for me and then MS updated it in November and it knocked out all my defaults and settings. I do not like the forced downloads, Windows pro users have a bit more control, but home users have very little control.

I'll remember that and make sure I get pro again!
I've had no sign of being asked to upgrade this computer to W10 thankfully.
Not keen on updates either ..had two lots of them screw things up in the past so am very wary of them
I'd prefer if each one could be hovered over and show a brief description of what it does.