Plusnet charge to switch to Sky

I'm moving my fibre to Sky (just got offered a deal I couldn't turn down) but Plusnet want to charge me £30 because of "differences in the set ups" (not an exact quote to be fair, but it wasn't clear exactly what the charge is for)

Can anyone clarify what this fee will be for? I knew I would end up paying for the short crossover in service times but it feels wrong to pay extra for some technical issue in the switch-over.

Thanks

Post deleted by RobertoS

This is the cancellation charge which is charged by BT Openreach when moving from a BT based lines to full LLU

In reply to a post by Oldjim:

This is the cancellation charge which is charged by BT Openreach when moving from a BT based lines to full LLU

Interesting, as you'd think it would be BT Wholesale who were losing a WBC customer would be charging as Openreach are still getting income from the line rental.
Hopefully Ofcom are reviewing this, as its a bit of dis-incentive and a reason for people to avoid LLU ISPs - distorts competition in favour of WBC based ISPs.

Edited by jchamier (Sun 08-Jun-14 17:23:08)

The charge is because BT Openreach have to go into the exchange and change the connections
That is the case with ADSL but I have no idea what they do when it is fibre but the charge seems to be the same

Edited by deleted (Sun 08-Jun-14 17:42:18)

Strange also that it is the losing provider that gets charged, when the change is instigated by the gainer.

In reply to a post by Oldjim:

The charge is because BT Openreach have to go into the exchange and change the connections. That is the case with ADSL but I have no idea what they do when it is fibre but the charge seems to be the same

Interesting its the same charge for fibre, as I would have thought it was a configuration setting on a switch, given the physical GEA side is the same. Thanks for explaining why is Openreach, i'd forgotten about changing the tie pairs.

I also wonder about why the losing ISP is raising the charge.

I can't provide a link but I think that both may get charged

I was thinking the same, after I posted.

I just found this http://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/Unlimited-Broadba...

I know this will not help speed up you getting FTTC with TT but it may explain the reason why it takes TT longer to be FTTC enable at the exchange or Cab compared to say BT.

First thing is TT is using there own equipment at the exchange
(LLU) local loop unbundling, and they have ADSL hardware already installed at the exchange.

BT Openreach have already install their FTTC Hardware at the exchange & Cab But Talktalk needs to install there FTTC LLU'd hardware.

This explains where the cost comes from - I wasn't aware that the LLU suppliers installed their own fibre kit in the exchange

In reply to a post by Oldjim:

This explains where the cost comes from - I wasn't aware that the LLU suppliers installed their own fibre kit in the exchange

From Mr Saffron's explaination in the fibre forum recently, the LLU suppliers install their own switches (alongside their ADSL DSLAMs / MSANs) and buy a Generic Ethernet Access (GEA) cable link product between their switches and the Openreach Fibre infrastructure.

TT and Sky are currently the only LLU network operators to buy into the GEA FTTC offering, they don't do FTTP (or FTTPoD I assume!).

The fttp hands over using the exact same fibre

If migrating to full llu there should be no charge. Sounds like someone is trying to raise a cease fee or a charge for router

This has been discussed at length in the Plusnet Forums and staff assured us that the charge is valid http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,1255...

Any migration over to LLU from BTW should be free of charge as I know most isp's charged fee to cancel BTW and move to other isp's LLU but it can be annoying mistaken by Plusnet's end. If the cancel order went through it too late I am afraid. But they should be FREE OF CHARGE if the customer have opt for migration transfer broadband from BTW to LLU.

P.S. Don't forget that I am the expert of migration from isp to isp as I done it hundred of times in the past!

Edited by adslmax (Sun 08-Jun-14 20:09:25)

apparently the charge was added by Plusnet on 1st October 2013

In reply to a post by Oldjim:

apparently the charge was added by Plusnet on 1st October 2013

Certainly well before 1st Oct '13 I migrated from PN (broadband only, line rental with BT Retail) to Xilo with a MAC, initially on 20CN, then after a few weeks to TTB SMPF (line rental remained with BT Retail.) PN did not charge me for cessation of broadband on the line but I did initially migrate to 20CN and it's possible that Xilo absorbed the cost of cessation of broadband on my WLR line when I changed to SMPF? However broadband was perhaps never actually ceased on my WLR line but I guess it may be different for a PN WBC to a full LLU migration?

Don't forget this is an FTTC >> FTTC migration so there may be differences.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Don't forget this is an FTTC >> FTTC migration so there may be differences.

Same physical copper pair to the premises though

In reply to a post by Oldjim:

This has been discussed at length in the Plusnet Forums and staff assured us that the charge is valid http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,1255...

It is not for Plusnet to decide what is a valid charge, that is down to the terms and conditions and the law.

This is a "recognised migration process", so the charge to the end user is clearly invalid - the wholesale costs and arrangement and jargon are not something an end user needs to be concerned about and doesn't need to swallow on Plusnet's behalf - there is no wholesale tracking fee or price clause in the Plusnet contract.

Who is it recognised by?
The OFFTA
Openreach
The industry in practice
Customers up and down the land, and any sensible interpretation of the term "migration"
Plusnet themselves in 2010 defined migration and recognised a move to LLU as such, they can't change the definition now just because their costs have gone up

They can and did by a formal change to the contract terms notified to all customers

In reply to a post by Oldjim:

They can and did by a formal change to the contract terms notified to all customers

Show me where. Here are the terms and conditions http://www.plus.net/info2/legal/index.html

Term 18: If you choose to end your agreement for the service and you do not use a recognised migration process you will be subject to the broadband cease charge as shown in the price guide. You will not have to pay this charge if you are moving home and we are unable to provide the service at the new UK address.

Bolded by me

And seeing the situation which has not been described correctly here then it is clear, to quote

I am moving out of my flat and the remaining tenants have decided to change to Talk Talk. As the plusnet account is in my name, I went through the process of getting a MAC code and such. However, Talk Talk is saying that they don't need the MAC code because of the LLU agreement they have with Plusnet

The bill payer is moving out, so this as far as the ISP and Ofcom etc would be concerned is a cease and new provision and not a migration.

So yes PlusNet is fine to pass on any cease charges that the wholesaler is charging them.

If the original PlusNet bill payer was remaining in the flat and they moved to TalkTalk the charge would not be raised.

This change of person that affects things seems to have been ignored but Hobo in the last post covers it.

IF PLUSNET IS RAISING A CHARGE FOR PEOPLE MIGRATING TO FULL LLU AND YOU ARE STAYING IN THE PROPERTY THEN I WANT TO KNOW URGENTLY AND NEED PROOF OF THE BILLING.

this is the explanation as included with the notification http://www.plus.net/support/october-changes-guide.shtml

Cessation charge

The broadband cessation charge increased from £25 to £30.

The charge can apply to any customer who has a broadband cease placed on their line. Generally, the main reasons for broadband ceases are:

A broadband account is cancelled (without switching providers)
Switching providers without a MAC key
The telephone line used to provide broadband is cut off

Cessation charges don't apply if:

You use a MAC key to switch to another provider (this is called a migration)
you're a Plusnet Essentials or Plusnet Unlimited customer without a contract

and from http://helpforum.sky.com/t5/Archived-Discussions/MAC...

D) Sky has LLu equipment with both their DSLAM's and their newer SVBN MSAN's and have the capacity to put you straight onto the SVBN MSAN for both phone & broadband (NO MAC REQUIRED)

Edited by deleted (Mon 09-Jun-14 10:23:39)

I know what a cease charge is, and as the person is leaving the property, the raising of the cease charge will happen.

As far as the telephone network is concerned this is the same as you moving out of your home and new people moving in.

What is needed is the billing info from someone who was SMPF who moved to MPF and was charged the fee, when as far as I know PlusNet is the only one to say they do so.

Edited by MrSaffron (Mon 09-Jun-14 10:37:04)

I will duck out now as I am only trying to explain from what I have seen as a customer and will leave this topic to the experts

Is there technically a cease of broadband on a line during the migration process from WBC to SMPF or MPF which an end user is usually not aware of nor directly billed for? Certainly there is a period of "downtime" whilst the necessary work is done at the exchange and perhaps that is technically a cease of broadband on a line? An activation fee charged to an end user by the gaining ISP (or absorbed into the monthly billing) presumably covers the work done at the exchange but does that include "technically" a cease of broadband on a WLR line before the connections are made to SMPF or MPF?

As the moving of the line from one DSLAM to another in the exchange is part of a recognised process it will not generate a cease order.

In rare cases where new provider puts in the wrong type of order a cease is sometimes raised and charged for.

The wording on the PlusNet pages is correct, but needs a little bit of clarification I believe and have raised this with them. In the meantime if there are people who have actually being charged, then I do want to here their first hand accounts.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

As the moving of the line from one DSLAM to another in the exchange is part of a recognised process it will not generate a cease order.

Thanks for the clarification Andrew - a "cease order" being a very specific thing quite different to a recognised migration process from WBC to SMPF or MPF where there may be a certain period of broadband "downtime" whilst the work is done at the exchange. Obviously if there is an actual "cease order" then the end user will probably be liable for it's payment.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The bill payer is moving out, so this as far as the ISP and Ofcom etc would be concerned is a cease and new provision and not a migration.

So yes PlusNet is fine to pass on any cease charges that the wholesaler is charging them.

I disagree.

I've migrated my own household and other family/friends with and without MAC to LLU and BTw many times and changed the account holder without a hitch.

I don't think they track the name on the new ISP and insist on a cease if it doesn't match?

So long as there has been a migration request of whatever sort, that's that - it doesn't matter if the name changes, the notice of transfer is the consumer protection mechanism.

I think there may be an issue with a name change on the phone line though, and a cease/re-provide on the line will automatically cause a broadband cease. Independent of which CP the line rental was with originally.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I think there may be an issue with a name change on the phone line though, and a cease/re-provide on the line will automatically cause a broadband cease. Independent of which CP the line rental was with originally.

Hi bob

That's definitely not the case - I changed a whole load of people over (I'm the one they ask) in the past 6 months (because free broadband ended). Definitely 2 including our own household we changed the line rental and phone too - and changed the name - and the surnames aren't even the same (I'm not married and my sister who is keeps her own surname)

This is how it should be - if it's a migration, it's a migration, so what if you change the household member who has the account name. In fact on my parents plusnet one name is the account holder and the other name is the bank account that pays the bill.

So are you saying when one person moves out of a home, give the new people your old MAC and avoid the cease charges?

As I understand it - unlike BT - the Plusnet system allows a name change on the phone contract without a line cease/provide

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

So are you saying when one person moves out of a home, give the new people your old MAC and avoid the cease charges?

No. There are no "new" people in any case discussed so far - they are registered at the property, members of the household and users of the same broadband service.

It's perfectly OK to migrate and set up the new account in a different householders name. It's not "avoiding" any charge - it's a perfectly honest and valid migration and no charge applies (if that is the case). I don't believe it is imagined by ISPs or OFCOM that a household must be tied to the same single account holder and bill payer for the life of their broadband service.

If you think there is something suspect, just change the account holder (you can do it on the plusnet portal) before migrating - seems an unnecessary extra step though?

Plusnet are claiming that BT Wholesale are charging them a fee on outgoing migrations to MPF providers: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,1255...

Do you have any contacts within BT Wholesale to verify this?

I read that post earlier last week and got a reply of ofcom 2 hours ago.

Based on my report alone they are contacting BTw.

The statement I got from ofcom was hard to understand but if I have it right it suggests, BTw have to publish any changes, and any changes to migration fees etc. have to be cleared with ofcom, they stated they are unaware of this change plusnet speak off. Thats it really. They havent told me if they will let me know what BTw says.

Will email BT wholesale in the morning

I think PlusNet reps are answering based on a cease order being raised i.e. someone is moving out and then someone new moving in.

Rather than a migration to full LLU, since this was the same thread as yesterday.

It is possible PlusNet has a unique clause with BT Wholesale though

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

I think PlusNet reps are answering based on a cease order being raised i.e. someone is moving out and then someone new moving in.

Yeah, that thread on the Plusnet forum appears to be about house moves.

AIUI though, the OP here is not moving house and has been hit with the cease fee.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

I think PlusNet reps are answering based on a cease order being raised i.e. someone is moving out and then someone new moving in.

At the risk of repetition:

-It's made clear in the Plusnet forum query that nobody new is moving in, rather existing users are remaining and wish to migrate.
- I've migrated several lines and several times with a different name (inc surname) on the outgoing and incoming accounts and the migration has never, ever been queried let alone stopped.
- OFCOM regulations explicitly state, for the MAC process at least, that an end user who is not the account holder is permitted to migrate, so long as they have the account holders permission:

k) �End-User� means:
i) an Account holder; or
ii) a person who may be authorised, by a person falling within paragraph (i) above, so as to transfer the Broadband Service

In reply to a post by vimto_girl:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

I think PlusNet reps are answering based on a cease order being raised i.e. someone is moving out and then someone new moving in.

At the risk of repetition:

-It's made clear in the Plusnet forum query that nobody new is moving in, rather existing users are remaining and wish to migrate.
- I've migrated several lines and several times with a different name (inc surname) on the outgoing and incoming accounts and the migration has never, ever been queried let alone stopped.
- OFCOM regulations explicitly state, for the MAC process at least, that an end user who is not the account holder is permitted to migrate, so long as they have the account holders permission:

k) �End-User� means:
i) an Account holder; or
ii) a person who may be authorised, by a person falling within paragraph (i) above, so as to transfer the Broadband Service

Can we be certain that the OP as an end user didn't inform PN that he wished to cancel the broadband since in the case of a migration to Sky full LLU (?) a MAC key is not required. If the word "cancel" had been inadvertently used then it's possible that a cease order was put on the line by PN...

+1

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Can we be certain that the OP as an end user didn't inform PN that he wished to cancel the broadband since in the case of a migration to Sky full LLU (?) a MAC key is not required. If the word "cancel" had been inadvertently used then it's possible that a cease order was put on the line by PN...

Either way, we need to find out if BT Wholesale are now charging a cease fee on BTw to LLU migrations within the same property.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Can we be certain that the OP as an end user didn't inform PN that he wished to cancel the broadband since in the case of a migration to Sky full LLU (?) a MAC key is not required. If the word "cancel" had been inadvertently used then it's possible that a cease order was put on the line by PN...

Either way, we need to find out if BT Wholesale are now charging a cease fee on BTw to LLU migrations within the same property.

Yes I agree - however I've never done a migration without a MAC key but I would imagine it's only necessary to give notice of leaving/migration, since the gaining ISP (in this case Sky LLU) will handle the recognised migration process? If at the point of leaving/migration a cease order was raised by PN then there must have been a error made somewhere in the migration process or perhaps the OP inadvertently instructed a cancellation of broadband on his line when he gave notice of leaving?

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Yes I agree - however I've never done a migration without a MAC key but I would imagine it's only necessary to give notice of leaving/migration, since the gaining ISP (in this case Sky LLU) will handle the recognised migration process?

In the case of MPF there is no need to ever inform the losing ISP of the transfer, the gaining provider handles everything via the recognised migration process. As I understand it Ofcom are in the process of standardising the process so that all migrations (whether on WLR or MPF) are handled 100% by the gaining provider.

The spanner in the works is that some ISPs have a mandatory notice period in the T&C whereas other ISPs take notification from the gaining ISP as adequate notice. I think Ofcom need to make the latter scenario standard too, since the process of the customer providing notice could inadvertently result in the operator of the losing ISP placing a cease.

Edited by Oliver341 (Wed 11-Jun-14 11:32:17)

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

The spanner in the works is that some ISPs have a mandatory notice period in the T&C whereas other ISPs take notification from the gaining ISP as adequate notice. I think Ofcom need to make the latter scenario standard too, since the process of the customer providing notice could inadvertently result in the operator of the losing ISP placing a cease.

That does possibly fit the scenario in the OP's case when he stated "Plusnet want to charge me £30 because of "differences in the set ups" (not an exact quote to be fair, but it wasn't clear exactly what the charge is for)" and confusion may have arisen when he gave notice to leave PN. A cease of broadband on a line, as part of the migration, would surely be unnecessary as has been established earlier in this thread, namely that a period of "downtime" whilst work is done at the exchange would not generate a cease order.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

That does possibly fit the scenario in the OP's case when he stated "Plusnet want to charge me £30 because of "differences in the set ups" (not an exact quote to be fair, but it wasn't clear exactly what the charge is for)" and confusion may have arisen when he gave notice to leave PN. A cease of broadband on a line, as part of the migration, would surely be unnecessary as has been established earlier in this thread, namely that a period of "downtime" whilst work is done at the exchange would not generate a cease order.

The issue of cancelling the old service mucking up migrations is one reason I support 100% gaining provider led migrations.

But I don't like to assume what the OP, or Plusnet, did, and hopefully MrSaffron will hear back from BTw soon about any mandatory cease fees for WLR to MPF BB migrations.

Edited by Oliver341 (Wed 11-Jun-14 12:10:55)

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

But I don't like to assume what the OP, or Plusnet, did, and hopefully MrSaffron will hear back from BTw soon about any mandatory cease fees for WLR to MPF BB migrations.

Sure

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by vimto_girl:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

I think PlusNet reps are answering based on a cease order being raised i.e. someone is moving out and then someone new moving in.

At the risk of repetition:

-It's made clear in the Plusnet forum query that nobody new is moving in, rather existing users are remaining and wish to migrate.
- I've migrated several lines and several times with a different name (inc surname) on the outgoing and incoming accounts and the migration has never, ever been queried let alone stopped.
- OFCOM regulations explicitly state, for the MAC process at least, that an end user who is not the account holder is permitted to migrate, so long as they have the account holders permission:

k) �End-User� means:
i) an Account holder; or
ii) a person who may be authorised, by a person falling within paragraph (i) above, so as to transfer the Broadband Service

Can we be certain that the OP as an end user didn't inform PN that he wished to cancel the broadband since in the case of a migration to Sky full LLU (?) a MAC key is not required. If the word "cancel" had been inadvertently used then it's possible that a cease order was put on the line by PN...

Mr Saffron is discussing specifically a different case on the Plusnet forum - he is for some reason saying in that case a cease not a migration must have been performed due to a difference in account holders names, and he is for some reason ignoring Plusnet's repeated and detailed explanation on that thread that this was not the case, rather the charge was due to migration to LLU. It is this case I am referring to and in this case, yes it is certain that Plusnet were well aware this was intended to be a transfer/migration.

In reply to a post by vimto_girl:

Mr Saffron is discussing specifically a different case on the Plusnet forum - he is for some reason saying in that case a cease not a migration must have been performed due to a difference in account holders names, and he is for some reason ignoring Plusnet's repeated and detailed explanation on that thread that this was not the case, rather the charge was due to migration to LLU. It is this case I am referring to and in this case, yes it is certain that Plusnet were well aware this was intended to be a transfer/migration.

Yes I take your point about the status of an "end user" but I do remember a topic on this forum some time ago where a PN broadband only end user had changed his phone number, he informed PN of the change but it was not updated on their system for some reason yet he continued to receive broadband on his line since the line was only referenced on the system - the phone number as such was irrelevant.

I think it was only when he wished to migrate away from PN that the change of phone number became an issue. The same could perhaps be true when it involves the real name of the end user: i.e. Mr. X is not updated to Mr. Y and issues could arise with a migration?

Since it would have been in the mandatory notifications BT has to make to Ofcom and the various pricing regulation areas I doubt it is real, and we have an odd scenario and PlusNet being a little different.

Similar to the 19.5 Meg upload on the new up to 38 Meg service, i.e. they are connecting you on the 80/20 product. PlusNet are convinced this is what they are doing, but I have my doubts until I see a speed test or two.

Rather than throw sticky mud around lets wait for BT Wholesale statement to say whether they charge for leaving a WBC/IPStream to a full LLU service.

Given the size of PlusNet compared to BT Retail one would have expected to see 5 or 6 times as many incidents, and also people like Adrian Kennard would have moaned about it for AAISP customers (they use both WBC and TalkTalk networks).

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Rather than throw sticky mud around lets wait for BT Wholesale statement to say whether they charge for leaving a WBC/IPStream to a full LLU service.

Given the size of PlusNet compared to BT Retail one would have expected to see 5 or 6 times as many incidents, and also people like Adrian Kennard would have moaned about it for AAISP customers (they use both WBC and TalkTalk networks).

Im not for one minute saying anything either way about BT Wholesale charges, or whether Plusnet's explanation is accurate - I am in fact surprised like you are and wait to see. Not just that, I was quite vocal that the Plusnet customer should not be charged according to their T&C (let's imagine a straightforward migration requested properly) even if it turns out to be charged to them by BTw.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Since it would have been in the mandatory notifications BT has to make to Ofcom and the various pricing regulation areas I doubt it is real, and we have an odd scenario and PlusNet being a little different.

Similar to the 19.5 Meg upload on the new up to 38 Meg service, i.e. they are connecting you on the 80/20 product. PlusNet are convinced this is what they are doing, but I have my doubts until I see a speed test or two.

Sometimes it does seem that PN can get into a muddle with things

Just done a check on my line for PN Unlimited Fibre Broadband and it says "40Mb download", "up to 38Mb download speeds" and "Up to 19.5Mb upload speeds" £17.49 per month, 18 month contract, £50 activation - that's broadband only.

Impacted FTTC Line Rate range from BT checker: 80Mbps to 70.2Mbps downstream, 20Mbps to 17.9Mbps upstream.

Don't think I'll migrate from ADSL2+ SMPF though since I'm quite happy with a ~12500Kbps downstream sync and a 1022Kbps upstream sync for the potential of PN's 19.5Mb upstream speed!

Edited by 4M2 (Wed 11-Jun-14 15:17:46)

We're definitely provisioning customers on 80/20 and capping the download speed to 40.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Since it would have been in the mandatory notifications BT has to make to Ofcom and the various pricing regulation areas I doubt it is real, and we have an odd scenario and PlusNet being a little different.

If Plusnet are claiming to be charged a fee by BT Wholesale and passing it on to the end user when in fact BT Wholesale are making no such charge against Plusnet, I think the word "deceptive" is more appropriate than "different".

I think the charge, whatever it is, will be direct from Openreach to Plusnet. Just the support person not fully aware.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I think the charge, whatever it is, will be direct from Openreach to Plusnet.

I believe the broadband cease charge is raised by BT Wholesale. But whether this charge is actually being raised by them for migrations to MPF is debatable.

A snapshot from Aug 2013 states:

In reference to web.archive.org/web/20130815103011/http://www.plus.net/support/cust...:

Generally, the main reasons for broadband ceases are: Switching providers without a MAC key - (LLU migrations excluded)

Whereas now it states:

In reference to www.plus.net/support/customer_service/billing/cessation_charges.shtml:

Generally, the main reasons for broadband ceases are: Switching providers without a MAC key

If this charge is due to a change in BT Wholesale policy which Plusnet is simply passing on to their end users, fair enough. If it's an arbitrary tax on people leaving for MPF providers, it's not so fair.

Also, BT Retail do not charge the cease fee for migrations "following another recognised transfer process": www.bt.com/ceasecharge

So Plusnet appear to be following a different route to big brother. I find it unlikely that BT Retail is swallowing the charge and not passing it on, if this BTw charge actually exists for migrations to MPF.

If it exists then I will be supporting a strong letter to Ofcom about uncompetitive practices strangling competition in the market.

If I was a PlusNet customer I would also be checking my contract and changes to it to see when this new charge was notified to me.

Link to the notification already posted here http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/plusnet/t/4334400-r...

http://www.plus.net/support/customer_service/billing...

"4. When do cessation charges apply?

The charge can apply to any customer who has a broadband cease placed on their line.

Generally, the main reasons for broadband ceases are:

A broadband account is cancelled (without switching providers)

Switching providers without a MAC key"

This page seems to have been updated on 10th June '14.

Edited by 4M2 (Thu 12-Jun-14 12:10:05)

And I am waiting for an official PlusNet response and BT Wholesale too.

Based on the PlusNet wording, yes they will be charging the end-user, but I can find nothing that says Openreach or BT Wholesale charge that fee for a WBC to MPF LLU migration. The only time it would happen is if the WBC provider issues a cease itself and the gaining provider ends up having to do a provide on the voice and broadband.

Full LLU providers are MEANT to use http://www.thinkbroadband.com/guide/migration.html#m... which triggers notification of the WLR provider.

Ofcom is as part of the wider regulation and new migration systems looking at making ceases zero cost.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

A snapshot from Aug 2013 states:

In reference to web.archive.org/web/20130815103011/http://www.plus.net/support/cust...:

Generally, the main reasons for broadband ceases are: Switching providers without a MAC key - (LLU migrations excluded)

Whereas now it states:

In reference to www.plus.net/support/customer_service/billing/cessation_charges.shtml:

Generally, the main reasons for broadband ceases are: Switching providers without a MAC key

If this charge is due to a change in BT Wholesale policy which Plusnet is simply passing on to their end users, fair enough. If it's an arbitrary tax on people leaving for MPF providers, it's not so fair.

Hi Oliver

Term 19 of T&C: If you choose to end your agreement for the service and you do not request and use a migration access code (MAC), or do not use another recognised migration process you will be subject to the broadband cease charge as shown in the price guide

Do you think a migration to LLU is another recognised migration process? If not, what is?

The text you quote is a support page that is not part of the T&C, not even as an asterisk or link. Do you think it's reasonable to understand it in conjunction with term 19 as being a general example, not an absolute rule, and referring specifically to not using a MAC when that process applies?

I think the Plusnet charge to the end-user is a breach of their T&C.

In reply to a post by vimto_girl:

Do you think a migration to LLU is another recognised migration process?

Yes. I think it's reasonable to expect that any migration performed by Openreach (as approved by Ofcom) has been done via a "recognised migration process". Otherwise, whose recognition are we seeking?

In reply to a post by vimto_girl:

I think the Plusnet charge to the end-user is a breach of their T&C.

I agree with you. It's baffling why Plusnet would purposely alter their support pages to contradict their T&C.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

And I am waiting for an official PlusNet response and BT Wholesale too.

Did they both ignore you in the end?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

And I am waiting for an official PlusNet response and BT Wholesale

Did you hear back yet?

Gone very quiet

I queried this in April, but got no satisfactory response from Plusnet. - link

I quoted the lastest BT price-list, but was told that BTw had changed their briefing and as I dont have access to the briefings I wasnt in a position to disagree further. This is what they said.

Price lists, such as the one you link to, are often changed via 'briefing' and the original document is not updated / superseded.

Jelv asked for a copy of the briefing but he didnt get anywhere either. Im still not convinced that BT would change their pricing and not make the information publicly available.

I said at the time

I really am surprised that no-one has picked up on this before - none of the broadband sites and in particular Im sure RevK would have had one of his infamous rants.
Im also surprised that OFCOM would have let it slip through. Because if this is a charge that is passed on to the EU, then it discourages migration to LLU services, which is something I thought OFCOM would have been strongly against.