selecting a 76mb FTTC isp

I currently have VM 200mb and love it, 220mb every day, every night with zero slowdowns. However I am moving house in a couple of months. I am literally moving 1 road over, but it seems VM do not cover that road (it is still the same exchange but I assume that road was never cabled when VM took it over from C&W and VM have done nothing to it since).

That leaves me with various FTTC options. The checker says I can get 43-61mb. I am well aware they are all going to run at the same speed *to the exchange*, what I am more interested in is throttling and the quality of their network/peering which will ultimately affect the connection. And I assume once the connection gets past the exchange, it then moves over that isp''s own network, producing different speeds and quality of connection depending on their network and how good their peering is.

So I now have to select from BT, Sky, plusnet, voda, zen, aaisp, talktalk, idnet.

I am trying to weigh up the pros and cons of each. I play online games where ping and quality of connection is essential as well as download a fair bit (nothing huge, maybe 200-300gb in a big month, I use the 4k netflix as well). Any supplied router will be used in modem mode as I will use my own router.
Voda - £27 but known for terrible service and I am not sure their network will be particularly good as they are not a proper isp
Talktalk - £30, 12 months. Not sure how good their network is or how good their service is, guaranteed no price rises and this looks like a strong contender.
Sky - £30 but 18 month contract instead of 12. the best tv supplier in the country but not interested in that at this point. not sure about strength of network or service.
plusnet - £31.99, well known good isp, i would expect their network to be good but they are also quite cheap so not sure how good it would be for stable low pings and peering. customer service has gone down but probably still better than most.
zen £43.99, very expensive but should provide a very good network and very good service
aaisp £45, most expensive and provides no modem and no phone line either, will provide top network and service, but i seriously doubt it is worth £15per month more than talktalk, sky or plusnet, assuming those provide a good service.
BT £44.99 but drops to £35 taking into account the £175 gift card over the 18 months. potentially good network due to close links with openreach and being a long established isp I would expect good peering too. Not particularly cheap even with the gift card, known for poor service but better than voda.

I am struggling to pick a winner from that lot. Ordinarily ignoring price I would have just gone for AAISP, and then Zen (coming from Nildram back in the day, I am used to top notch connections and paying extra for it). But I think they have both priced themselves out of the market and I don't think I can justify paying £45 a month just for the broadband which is a 50% markup on the likes of talktalk and sky when I don't know I will get ANY benefit from it what so ever AND be stuck with a 200gb usage cap which isnt enough.

I have done a bit of reading and all I see is various comments about them being the same due to them all using the same openreach product, without addressing the fact that each isp will have their own network beyond the exchange and their own peering arrangements. So does anyone have any insights that might help me make a decision here?

I think it is likely to come down to BT, plusnet, IDNET or AA.

Edited by Ewok (Sun 18-Feb-18 20:44:30)

Have you checked the speed estimate for the address you are looking at, since to get the best speeds you need to be close the VDSL2 cabinet

Yeah it says I should get around 61mb max and 43mb min. I am sure it said I would get 64mb a couple of weeks ago. Either way it seems to think I won't get near the 76mb but should beat the 52mb easily enough. I hope its a conservative estimate and I would get nearer 65mb+ but I can get what I can get, so nothing I can do about it either way I think.

Having read some reviews of AAISP I am starting to lean towards them, despite the high cost. But I am still not sure the cost will be worth it due to the limits of speed on the line being identical for whoever I go with. If AA could get me a sigficantly faster speed from the line then it would definitely be worth it.

Edited by Ewok (Sun 18-Feb-18 19:56:24)

I seem to remember reading on their Community forum that since PlusNet moved to their new network, which is dedicated BT wholesale backhaul, the traffic prioritisation has been removed, possibly because the equipment they were using was incompatible with the new network. You could ask on the forum, anyone can create a username, you don't have to be a customer.

I renewed with Plusnet last week and they matched the current Vodafone offer of £27 per month (if I was a Vodafone mobile user they would have matched the £24 offer). I like the call bundles that Plusnet offer such as anytime minutes to mobiles and international calls which seem to be cheaper than other providers including related ISPs BT and EE.

Good price, better than new customers can get at £30! I wonder what they would offer me as a current VM customer who gets 200mb, the middle tv package, line rental and weekend calls....for £30 If I could stay with VM then I would but it seems they can''t be bothered cabling 1 road over to pick up the few hundred extra customers they could potentially get.

If they have a new network that sounds promising, I would assume it has good bandwidth and peering if its new too.

I know in theory all the suppliers should give the same speed on the 76mb fttc service but I have used sky,plusnet and ident of the cheaper ones plusnet was the best, of the 3 thoughi idnet is fastest and most consistent and with far lower pings but is more expensive
one thing to consider is how they are when things go wrong,I had long standing issues on my line hence the move from sky:-they didn't get it sorted,plusnet also didn't get things sorted so tried idnet ,they identified the issue and using the same openreach service (just as sky and plusnet did for over 3yrs combined!)got the problem sorted within a month!It helps having support who know what they are doing and looking for when things do go wrong,they also answer the phone within about 30secs not 30 mins like the other 2!(even at 2am when I had done something stupid to my router!)

I have had BT, TalkTalk and Sky.

BT and TalkTalk service wise it was perfect. Sky has been a bit hit and miss at 3 properties of mine now, struggling to reach 4K streaming which needs approx 15Mbps, but it would only reach streams of around 3Mbps at peak hours (720P), has gone down twice this year alone at around 1AM, but still have an IP and Sync to the exchange (weirdly it did this at my other 2 properties time to time, one 75 miles away). Definitely not an issue my end based on the sync being up.

BT has better customer service and a good escalation process for complaints. Sky are very nice, friendly, but my experience has been they don't fix the actual issue, they just speak good english.

TalkTalk customer service was absolutely horrendous, but the connection was just fine and as reliable as BTs. All the way up to the Exec team they are dire for customer service.

In my view, your choice is to pay more for BT, or pay less and know full well you have very bad customer service.

Personally I say avoid the following, based on congestion posts I have seen: SSE, Zen, Vodafone, Post Office. Others often complain I bash these providers, but fact is there are a bunch of congestion posts.

Never used PlusNet but over the years it seems to have been a bit mixed.

AAISP is a very good choice if you want to spend more and have excellent support.

Out of all the mass market ISPs BT has by far the best router in terms of WiFi range and overall speed. It is an AC2600 device, usually £150+ new for a same spec device in currys etc.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Sun 18-Feb-18 20:32:58)

I am definitely considering AA, and I could probably stretch to the pricing of their 200mb package which will end up at £45 after paying £10 for the copper, but it's the 200gb limit that kills it. If it was 400 then sign me up now, but I don't want to constantly worry about the usage and at 200gb I would have to, plus usage is going to continue going up as higher quality streaming gets more and more common. The 300gb package is simply not worth it since that would be £55 with a 1tb package "only" £60 making the 300gb package pretty pointless. But I wont pay £60 a month.

Looked at idnet, they seem good and are unlimited. But they will be £50 and as far as I can tell are not quite as good as AA.

the 200mb is on fttp isn't it? with normal fttc service the fastest is 76/80mb unless you have a gfast enabled cabinet

Talking about Virgin Media cable...

Back to FTTC unlikely to notice much difference on any of the providers if their service is running well, the differences tend to revolve around how they talk to you when reporting faults, or speeds are slower than expected

Vodafone seems a bit hit or miss due to congestion in some areas, and EE has some quirks seen in speed test that may affect some things, but largely no one complains or don't realise web browsing on a good service is snappier.

Have you considered a slower service, as your speed estimate isn't 76Mbps?

BT's 55Mbps service is in the middle of your estimated range and the promo on mastercards is at it's peak at the moment.

Their router is better than Sky's and probably better than most others.

Yeah I was trying to gauge what difference I would likely see but it's hard to tell. I am a perfectionist and would be constantly irritated if something wasn't working right, like inconsistent speeds at peak times, poor pings, packet loss. I have had bad experiences with BT before, where the phone and broadband (old adsl) kept dropping out whenever it rained, water was obviously getting in somewhere. They attempted to fix it twice but it was so intermittent it had always stopped by the time the engineer came out to look at it. Thats when we moved to Virgin and it has been flawless ever since, I suspect very few people around here have Virgin because I have always had speeds 10% above the speed I am paying for and it never budges at all, and pings of 7ms. It's driving me mad having to drop them just to move one road over and spend hours trying to figure out what FTTC provider to go with.

Since I am a perfectionist, AA would be the one I would go with, but I can't justify that cost for a 200gb cap. BT would probably be most likely my next choice at the moment, the danger is I am moving to this new flat and have no idea what the quality of the existing phone line is and I may end up stuck in an 18 month contract with a company too incompetent to fix it if its a poor line (again).

not bothered about the router, it will be in modem mode anyway. I am coming from a flawless 220mb connection so I dont want to lower it any more than I have to. It might be BT I end up going with anyway despite their [censored] customer service because it will work out cheaper overall.

Getting good feedback here, one thing you mentioned is whichever you choose will be putting the supplied router in modem mode and using your own router like you do on VM, I'm not sure which VDSL supplier suplies such a device.
Although easy to get round by buying either a VDSL modem like the HG612 or a VDSL router that can run in bridge mode, I've used TP-Link W9970 and Billion 8800NL R2 in bridge mode aswell as the BTO HG612 3b, just something you might not be aware of or might need to factor in when moving.
Maybe get the BT 55Mb service and use the pre-paid mastercard to buy a new router?

I had assumed whatever they supply would be the same as the Virgin modem/router, just stick it in modem/bridge mode and plug my own router into it? AFAIK that has always been standard with modem/routers, easily switched to just act as a modem only. It was that way back when I had ADSL many years ago and ever since I got VM.

Unfortunately its not that easy now, VM Hub has modem mode but I've yet to come across a VDSL ISP supplied router that can run in modem mode, Sky Hub won't, BT ones wont, I had limited success with TT HG635, I've just moved from Sky Fibre to VM Vivid350 and used the devices I mentioned above as VDSL modems on my VDSL connections, now I use VM Hub in modem mode.
Although many do, including myself, its against Sky's T+C's to use your own router on their Fibre.
There's others on here with much more knowledge than me so maybe they will advise which ISP VDSL device can run in modem mode?

In reply to a post by Ewok:

not bothered about the router, it will be in modem mode anyway. I am coming from a flawless 220mb connection so I dont want to lower it any more than I have to. It might be BT I end up going with anyway despite their [censored] customer service because it will work out cheaper overall.

No ISP other than virginmedia use modem mode. It is not an option. Unless you have a new router you likely will find the WiFi better on most ISP supplied devices now.

I argue VM have Modem Mode as their routers are that bad, everytime I have used VM I have had to use modem mode. With other ISPs I have zero issues using the supplied kit. My BT SmartHub I never turned it off. The Sky Q router I have now has 1000+ hours uptime all the time. My TalkTalk router was getting 60+ days uptime.

The only bad talktalk router is the HG633. Users often get it swapped for a DLink 3782 which is fine.

RE BT CS, it's not too bad nowadays, it's got a fair bit better especially since BT promised in late 2016 to handle 80% of calls in the UK.
If you have any major issues, there are good escalation channels.

There are options for you if you insist on using your own device, e.g. buy a VDSL2+ modem router or a bt openreach modem on ebay e.g. hg612 (but the openreach modems are now a bit long in the tooth as they were phased out a few years back now with all in one devices by ISPs so you're getting old tech).

My advice, see how you get on with the ISP kit, it works for 99% of users, myself included and I have 30+ devices hooked up. Make sure to split the 2.4 and 5ghz bands from day one. My BT SmartHub actually had better WiFi than a Netgear Nighthawk which I ended up sticking back in the cupboard as it wasn't getting to the back bedroom.

I would rule out AAISP as in my experience 2 hours of 4K on Netflix is around 11-15Gb.

EDIT: Having used BT based services and virginmedia, I would opt for a BT based one everytime. My Sky, TalkTalk and BT has been worlds better than virginmedia was, VM I had a lot of jitter, single thread slowdowns every evening, higher pings.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Sun 18-Feb-18 22:05:37)

I use an Asus AC68U with Merlin firmware on it. I have the devices set up as static ip's and openvpn set up on it. I am directing 4 devices over the vpn, leaving the others to connect directly, I have overclocked it so that the vpn can max out at 50mb instead of 35mb. I plan on moving to wireguard as soon as I can get firmware for it. I can monitor the bandwidth usage of each device, use it as a DLNA server with a plugged in HDD or usb stick and set up adaptive QoS.

Can these isp supplied routers do this stuff? particularly the vpn which is a must. If so then I can consider using it but they were all very basic the last time I used one. I also want control over my own firmware updates.

As for VM, its been flawless since the day I got it several years ago, 200mb connection that runs at 220mb speeds 24/7 without a single glitch of any kind and a constant 7ms ping. I guess not many people use VM around in my area.

I just checked out adsl modems here and it looks like i can ggrab a relatively chepa oe if need be https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/store/modems/vdsl-fib...

Edited by Ewok (Sun 18-Feb-18 22:16:52)

I currently use an Asus AC68u, and they do have a dsl variant of it. Unfortunately I was about to upgrade it to an AC86U due to the hugely more powerful processor on it which is great for vpn, and I dont think that one does come in a dsl version otherwise it would be problem solved!

I would recommend declining any ISP offered modem (if possible) or selling it. Especially if you plan on using your own router.
Buy your own VDSL2 modem with a Broadcom chipset. They seem to perform best on most lines and give very detailed statistics.

If this sounds appealing to you I'm sure you could get some very good recommendations. Myself i like the Zyxel range of modems. The highest syncing on my line (I've tried about a dozen) is the Zyxel VMG1312-B10A.

In reply to a post by Ewok:

I currently use an Asus AC68u, and they do have a dsl variant of it. Unfortunately I was about to upgrade it to an AC86U due to the hugely more powerful processor on it which is great for vpn, and I dont think that one does come in a dsl version otherwise it would be problem solved!

I advise with all my might you avoid the Asus DSL-AC68U.
It has a Mediatek chipset that performs very poorly. OpenReach recently disabled retransmission on these devices so would cost you quite a bit of sync.

The Asus DSL-AC88U has a Broadcom chipset and I would highly recommend that.

I can recommend UNO for ping/download and stability in peak periods.

Yeah I just did a very quick search for got these 3 listed https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/store/modems/vdsl-fib...

will need to do a lot more research if this is what I have to do.

I wouldnt get the dsl version, it would be paying a load of money for the same thing I already have just with a modem bolted on it. the 88 I might have to consider but I am thinking a modem on its own and my own router behind it might be better.

I have AAISP £35 200GB FTTC, with Pulse8 line at £14pm including basic 1571 and Caller ID.

I'm quite a low user. But you may not have seen that if in any month you don't use all your quota, half of what you didn't use is added to next month's. This is cumulative. Being a low user, as I said, I started January with 360GB, and February with 366GB .

You cannot do these things no, you will need to buy a new device of some kind. The easiest fix is to buy a legacy Openreach modem e.g. a HG612, it will work, but it's lacking some of the newer standards. This will act as your modem, so plug the router into here.

(Assuming BT). Setup the router to connect with the following details. Not sure if your Merlin device supports this, but I am sure it will.
Username: [email protected]
Password: BT
VLAN: 101
VPI: 1
VCI: 32

Yes your experience of VM is very lucky indeed, we are not this fortunate in London (tried it in 3 properties now). Pings are like 35+, plenty of areas "high utilization which is service affecting" with the fix dates being pushed back over 2 years. 360P streaming on an evening, YouTube struggling with 144P on Sunday evenings. Granted, they let me leave, twice.

Once you are up and running I confident you will be happy, albeit at slighty lower speeds, but in all honesty I do 4K streaming, netflix, Sky Q 4K downloads, we have iPads, laptops, chromecasts, fire TV Sticks, 2 Sky Q HD boxes on the WiFi, smart tvs, ps4s, xbox, Wii, basically all the tech and it works wonderfully. I have 38Mbps and I do not feel the need for anything faster right now, we can do more than 1 4K stream at once.

I just checked out adsl modems here and it looks like i can ggrab a relatively chepa oe if need be https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/store/modems/vdsl-fib...

Get an official one of ebay e.g. HG612, the third party ones leave plenty to be desired. I have seen some lines get banded quite heavily with the netgear one for instance, banding is basically irreversible nowadays, I saw the line go from 70Mbps on a HG612 to banding of 25Mbps, they went back to the HG612 and the banding was removed 1 year later. BT argued rightly it was just within the fault threshold as the line was estimated 40 to 50Mbps with a min of 20.

The third party ones also do not have the reliability of the BT ones which literally never crash.

A bunch here:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0...

Edited by ukhardy07 (Sun 18-Feb-18 22:25:47)

The HG612 however is very long in the tooth in two ways. Simple age, and cheap modems degrade, and secondly it definitely sync's several Mbps lower than more modern ones.

AAISP supply (if required) the ZyXel VMG1312-B10D, which doesn't have the B10A IPv6 problem. It can be used in modem-only mode to customer routers.

You will note I mentioned your exact wording earlier re them being a bit long in the tooth, but given the setup it seems an ok choice.

Didn�t know re the one you linked to, just seen on BT forums the damage these things can do, not yours specifically but bad modems.

Sounds a good choice.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Sun 18-Feb-18 22:34:06)

Not sure what those details are, they seem to be dsl settings, the AC68 is just a router, there is no place for any of this stuff, plug it into the wan port on the modem and thats it, there are no usernames or passwords (and certainly not cpi/vci adsl settings). Those login details and settings would be for the modem not the router?

I am in London, my VM connection must be a miracle

If its good enough for AA then I guess it would do! Looks like that thing can be had for £29 on ebay too.

Personally I like the 2 unit setup, modem and router, I like to tinker and that can involve router reboots, got my line interleaved and sync reduced as DLM thought it was unstable, so I went for separate modem as that holds sync while I tinker away with my modem. So if you like to tinker you might want to use separate units to avoid DLM interfering with your line.

They go in the router not the modem. The modems have no GUI typically they just get a sync, everything is handled in the router regarding establishing a session over PPOE or whatever it might be.

Any standard router which says compatible with BT Infinity allows you to enter this, eg a netgear out of the box.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Sun 18-Feb-18 22:42:28)

In reply to a post by Ewok:

If its good enough for AA then I guess it would do! Looks like that thing can be had for £29 on ebay too.

Watch out for it being a 10B or 10A, not the 10D .

The 10B I believe was OK, but the 10A has a problem with IPv6 and loses it frequently. Needing a reboot to regain it. ZyXel are not going to fix it, it seems.

Your Asus will be fine as currently for VM you will have it set to Automatic IP with no login required, will depend on what ISP you go with how you set it up, PPOE option is there in WAN type and with Merlin you have the Option 61 which is needed for Sky Fibre if you went with them....I have 3 68u's setup with Asus's new AiMesh firmware, but I did use them on VDSL previously with a separate modem.

In reply to a post by Ewok:

If its good enough for AA then I guess it would do! Looks like that thing can be had for £29 on ebay too.

If it is to be used in modem only mode then buy the VMG1312-B10A. The D variant had Broadcoms budget dsl chipset and syncs a few Mb lower.

The IPV6 issues that the A variant had are only when used as a router.
The A also has an additional noise filter not found in the D.

edit: The Asus also works perfect on BT

ignore the vlan/vci etc settings above. They are for the modem not the router.

Edited by j0hn83 (Sun 18-Feb-18 23:05:32)

Ah.

I didn't know that. I was sold it to be used as a router, fed by my HG612. Which later died and I found out how much faster the Zyxel sync'ed.

Funny the SmartHub is underperforming the HG612 on some lines, mine didn�t have any noticeable impact, but I have a feeling the Zyxel would beat most Smart Hubs.

Plenty of reports on BT forums of slower syncs with the Smart Hub vs HH3 and modem.

Ahhh back to the good old days of having to figure out what the best modem is to try and get a better speed, then what the best settings are, then endless testing to tweak it, then monitoring it to make sure it doesnt drop in performance, then praying a bit of rain doesnt screw it all up every time.

Oh how I missed not having to do any of this with my simple life at VM for the last 10 years haha. Get VM hub, switch to modem only, plug in Asus, get instant 220mb speeds on a 200mb line with a 7ms ping and zero issues for 10 years. Forced to move to BT's archaic FTTC [censored] because VM have never bothered to extend C&W's cables 1 road over, and will now have to spend weeks and months fiddling with it to get the best I can from it.

I am kinda leaning towards grabbing AAISP for the 6 month contract at first because I have no idea how good or bad the line is at the new flat until after I move in and get it connected, and I trust AA will get it functioning at its optimum. I just need to check my current usage with VM to see what package I will need. Then I can choose to move to BT or someone else when i know everything is set up properly if I still think AA is not worth the premium. No need to make a decision until the start of April so I have some time to think about it. I am likely to either go for BT because you get more and its cheaper (just hope the line is good and properly optimised already), or AA.

Edited by Ewok (Mon 19-Feb-18 09:08:27)

There is nothing wrong with a BT based FTTC connection.

The modems, at least the openreach ones just plug in and work. There is no endless tweaking of any kind. Plug in, off you go.

I have had a stable line from 2012 across multiple properties.

Nothing makes virgins network intrinsically better, in many regards FTTC is better eg for congestion. Both are different networks which both deliver good service.

In all fairness trying out multiple modems is counter productive as it will not encourage DLM to give you good speeds. Plug one device in, leave it and forget it. You can do zero tweaking manually as the line is managed by DLM, gone are the ADSL days where you could tweak the noise margin etc.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Mon 19-Feb-18 11:07:21)

I see. I have just been reading comments in reviews about AAISP and how they have managed to get quite a few poorly performing lines to work much better after people had spent months trying to get other providers to fix it. They seem to be able to diagnose things better than BT themselves can and push to get it fixed where other isp's just fail.

My worry is if it is not a good line I know first hand how useless BT are at dignosing and fixing stuff after endless problems at my current address with the copper line that went to [censored] whenever it rained and after 18 months of the being hopeless, I switched to VM which has no such issues since theres no ancient copper to deal with. BT/openreach approach will be "its good enough" if my line gives me an inconsistent 40mb just above the minimum, where I would imagine AA could see certain issues that could be rectified to provide much better quality, and actually arrange to have that done. Thats my concern with BT that if it turns out to be poorer than I would like, having to deal with those idiots again that will probably run some generic test that doesnt diagnose the issue, and read [censored] from a script, and then I am stuck in an 18 month contract that technically meets the minimum requirements but should work better. Having said that, if the line is fine, and has no issues when it rains, and the BT network is not overloaded, then I expect I will probably get the same performance on BT as with anyone else.

I have the TalkTalk FTTC capped package (i think its capped at 38 Mbps) and have the TT D-Link router mentioned earlier in the thread, my speeds are rock solid and the only problem i have had since my switch was a very old and corroded master socket slowing my speeds which was changed for the newer type shortly after an online chat with TT customer service, i find on line chat the best method as you can take screen shots of the conversation.

I have been a TT customer many years and would recommend them even though phone support has a bad reputation (the reason i use online chat if i need to contact them)

Edit to add - To be fair i recently cancelled my TT Mobile contract and moved to O2 as TT are no longer providing a mobile service i did this by phone and the people i dealt with on a couple of separate calls were very helpful so not all call centre staff are a waste of space as some customers would have you believe.


Speed test taken a few minutes ago - https://s14.postimg.org/ew228x0u9/ggggggggg.jpg

.

Edited by deleted (Mon 19-Feb-18 12:14:10)

You will be provided a speed estimate, and a minimum guaranteed speed. A significant fault is likely to take you outside of this fault threshold, or where it does not, there is possibly going to be audible noise on the landline side of things which can be reported as a voice fault, which in turn will resolve the broadband issues.

If the speeds are just lower than you would like, but the line is stable, indeed they will not issue an engineer unless it's below the threshold... If there are regular drop-outs, indeed they will issue an engineer.

Casing point, virginmedia do not have a particular better track record than other mass market ISPs for resolving faults.

AAISP are known for resolving faults better than others, agreed, although a formal complaint to BT executive complaints will get you a complaints handler, with a direct email address and phone number to a UK based person. They have been known to do things e.g dig up metres of pathway to get issues resolved, my gut feeling is if you know who to raise an issue with, which we certainly do, you won't be stuck talking to script monkeys. BT executive team track to completion with the complaints handler, their primary objective is to ensure the case does not hit the ombudsman, or escalate further.

To date, I have only seen 2 cases without resolution, out of the many 100s I know have gone to that team. In those 2 cases it was largely unrealistic expectations, ie expecting the very best speeds beyond the speed estimates, and reaching a stage where they were never going to be satisfied as they would not work with the team.

EDIT: as above (Chippy_Tea_) no issues with Talktalk other than CS, which was really bad.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Mon 19-Feb-18 12:16:51)

Ok thanks. I have much to consider. I need something rock solid, reliable, with the lowest possible ping, and no slowdowns during peak. The trick is getting that for the best price. Between me and the exchange it will be the same on every ISP, it's the bit beyond that which I expect could differ greatly, or perhaps they are all very similar these days. I still read people complaining about slowdowns during peak times and poor pings, what I can't tell is whether that is the openreach part, or their own ISP's part causing it.

If I were to sign up to BT for example, I suspect I have some sort of timeframe with which I can cancel it? So If they install it and I find it is not as good as I would like, I could cancel it (I guess within 14 days?) and not be tied to the 18 months? That at least lets me try it and ditch it if it doesn't perform. Just not sure if this 'cooling off period' is from date of order or from activation. I am more inclined to try one of the cheaper ones like BT to test it out, as long as I can ditch it without being stuck with them for a year or more.

I do not believe cooling off exists once service goes live, unless the speed provided is outside of the speeds promised. Cooling off is typically up-to go-live date provided it is within the cooling off window (10 or 14 days depending usually). Where the service is out of contract, and you can demonstrate this, indeed you can leave.

RE the exchange, not really the case as on fibre the local exchange is often bypassed. FTTC goes to a head-end exchange, sort of a master exchange which could serve 10+/20+ ADSL exchanges. This is one reason why congestion is not so typical on FTTC, since the ratios are so large, ie so many users hit the same equipment, you really would not want a slowdown at the head-end exchange which impacts say 50,000 users. They have to get things right. The green FTTC cabs go back to the head-end.

Congestion is ISP dependant, although due to the network topology on FTTC, all the standard players BT, Sky, TalkTalk, PlusNet etc rarely experience this congestion.

Congestion indeed was more common on ADSL where exchanges were more localised, and hence smaller subset of users affected (similar to Virginmedias setup at current where congestion becomes extremely local, not whole cities).

Things like netflix streaming, YouTube etc are dependant on the CDNs and again the typical providers have this setup well to ensure the data is routed the most efficient way.
https://media.netflix.com/en/company-blog/how-netfli...

At the headend, each provider has their own equipment and own fibre provision. Again, I would not worry, I would regard them all the same in your shoes.

The real difference is customer support, and some smaller ISPs have congestion.

Between me and the exchange it will be the same on every ISP, it's the bit beyond that which I expect could differ greatly, or perhaps they are all very similar these days. I still read people complaining about slowdowns during peak times and poor pings, what I can't tell is whether that is the openreach part, or their own ISP's part causing it.

FWIW, it's not the 'Openreach part' that causes the that kind of slowdown.

I need something rock solid, reliable, with the lowest possible ping, and no slowdowns during peak. The trick is getting that for the best price.

The trick is understanding that all those things generally do not sit well together ... I say pay a bit more.

Ok so basically as things stand now, best bet is probably to go with a larger provider and whoever has the best deal at the time. I will use netflix and a fair bit of online gaming (FPS which will need a low stable ping and good routing).

Customer service part is the risk, but if things are working as they should then I would hope not to need them anyway. Plus like you said if I did need them then people around here will probably know the best route to take for support.

Edited by Ewok (Mon 19-Feb-18 13:32:50)

Yes, based on my activity on BT Forums, London-wise congestion seems fine on BT... Of course I may have missed the odd thing.

& based on my posts on Sky Forums, there is some congestion dotted around London. Last I noted it was North London most affected (Enfield way) struggling to get above 720P on streams during evenings, despite speedtests showing full speed. Nothing major, it just caps out the streams on Netflix, YouTube etc at 720P - most users watching on "auto" mode do not notice as the stream plays albeit lower quality. I have not followed up much since it was reported late 2017.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Mon 19-Feb-18 14:23:22)

Ping wise, not a lot you can do, if your line is very stable you will get Fast Path and pings around 10ms or lower. If you have crosstalk, DLM will turn on interleaving along with higher pings. My parents are on a longer line with a sync of 30Mbps and are seeing pings of around 35ms, this is not the ISP but the line requiring interleaving due to length of the line.

What estimates are you seeing here:
https://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/adsl.htm?s...

Use the address checker.

On FTTC however, assuming G.INP kicks in the additional latency due to interleaving is removed.

Ok will avoid sky then as i am in north london pretty close to enfield!

I have the TalkTalk FTTC capped package (i think its capped at 38 Mbps) and have the TT D-Link router mentioned earlier in the thread, my speeds are rock solid and the only problem i have had since my switch was a very old and corroded master socket slowing my speeds which was changed for the newer type shortly after an online chat with TT customer service, i find on line chat the best method as you can take screen shots of the conversation.

I have been a TT customer many years and would recommend them even though phone support has a bad reputation (the reason i use online chat if i need to contact them)

Edit to add - To be fair i recently cancelled my TT Mobile contract and moved to O2 as TT are no longer providing a mobile service i did this by phone and the people i dealt with on a couple of separate calls were very helpful so not all call centre staff are a waste of space as some customers would have you believe.


Speed test taken a few minutes ago - https://s14.postimg.org/ew228x0u9/ggggggggg.jpg

As i said above i am on the capped package this is the up to 76Mb package.

Download and stream even more with Faster Fibre Broadband up to 76Mb - https://www.talktalk.co.uk/shop/broadband/fibrespeed...

Totally unlimited Speed Boost with no mid-contract price rises. Guaranteed.
Our Faster Fibre Speed Boost is totally unlimited, and is up to 8x faster than standard broadband. Perfect for super busy homes that love to stream in HD, game online, and upload large files, all at the same time. Plus, we�re the only broadband provider to guarantee no mid-contract price rises on all our broadband packages.

Plan includes:
Totally unlimited internet usage
Price fixed for 12 month contract
Powerful Super Router
No set-up fee

Edited by deleted (Mon 19-Feb-18 15:02:33)

I was unaware of this offset, I had assumed it helped but not fully. Very interesting!

Tried that link using address. I noticed it seems to suggest I can get FTTP, which I was not aware of and confuses me slightly, nowhere else has mentioned me being able to get FTTP.

I did another quick google and the openreach page says "We recommend that you discuss the property type with your end customer to establish whether their premise is a multi-dwelling unit (MDU), i.e. apartment block, or multi-occupancy business unit (MOU), prior to the order being raised. Any orders received for MDUs or MOUs will be rejected." Well it is a multi-dwelling unit as it is a flat within a purpose built block of flats (built 2003). Which I assume for some reason rules out FTTP then.

The stats seem reasonable for the vdsl but I am going to NEED fastpath (I cannot live with 20+ms pings)

http://i64.tinypic.com/wi8pjp.jpg

Edited by Ewok (Mon 19-Feb-18 17:48:46)

In reply to a post by Ewok:

The stats seem reasonable for the vdsl but I am going to NEED fastpath (I cannot live with 20+ms pings)

You may need to rule out VDSL then because if DLM decides your line is going to be interleaved, no ISP, at the moment, can opt it out of that on Openreach equipment as can generally done on ADSL (via BT Wholesale/LLU operators).

Matt

Edited by uno (Mon 19-Feb-18 17:54:08)

There is no other option as it stands, unless I get 4g.

What i find staggering is that I apparently have to get tied into a 12 or 18 month contract for a service before I know what service I am going to get! I might get 60mb, I might get 30mb, I might have a 5ms ping, or I might have a 30ms ping. How the hell can I get tied into a long contract without know this stuff beforehand!?!? Its beyond ridiculous.

The checker actually says that FTTP On Demand (FTTPoD) is available - which is different to FTTP.

FTTPoD mean you can request FTTP to be installed but you pay for the engineering works to run Fibre to your premises from the nearest Fibre Aggregation Node (FAN), That costs could be anything from £1000 to £30000++, and will involve a higher monthly charge initially than FTTP, and a commited minimum term (1 year to 3 years)

FTTP is when BT have already deployed fibre infrastructure locally, and you can simply request an installation.

Looking at your DSL checker results, you can expect around 50 to 60 Bits download speed on a suitable FTTC package, and FTTC will normally give latency in the 10 to 15 MSec region. Remember though that latency is typically given as the ping time to a server on the internet - so where that server is located will have a lot to do with the ping time. If you run a TraceRoute to the server you are pinging, you will see all the nodes your data goes through - and will see the ping time increasing as you go up the line as it were.

Saying you cannot live with 20+ms pings is not the right way to view things - the real question is what the ping times are from leaving you until the packets involved transit to the 'internet' away from your ISP. After that, the ping time will depend on distance and hops to the target server.

You appear to be making business grade requests of a consumer grade product.

If you absolutely have to have a guarantee of the lowest of pings and the highest of speeds, then you should expect to pay handsomely for it.

Ok ignore that FTTPoD then, I wont be getting that!

Yep I know all about pings, im a 20 year FPS gamer, thats why I also want good routing. I am well aware what ping times to expect to various places around the world and what effect good and bad routing has on it. What I dont want is to go back to worse latency than I had 15 years ago on an ISDN line, particularly coming from a VM connection where I get 7ms pings to the various speedtest servers at ookla.

I play fps games where a 25ms increase in ping feels huge to me after playing for so many years, I also trade which requires a low ping. Anything around 10ms would be fine, 25+ I would not be happy with (although It seems I will have no choice in the matter anyway).

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

You appear to be making business grade requests of a consumer grade product.

If you absolutely have to have a guarantee of the lowest of pings and the highest of speeds, then you should expect to pay handsomely for it.

The OP should consider a leased line service, ie a dedicated full fibre line with zero contention and line speeds guaranteed 24/7 with low latency. Of course such a service won�t come cheap but if the OP wants the very best....
www.linebroker.co.uk

Nope, I expect to get what is fair and reasonable in 2018, not something worse for latency than I used 15 years ago. I am less bothered about the speed as long as its above say 40mb, but the speed and latency on FTTC seem to go hand in hand.

I know FTTC with BT CAN provide pings of 5ms, a friend has it a few miles away. What I take great exception to is having to enter into a long term contract without knowing what I am going to get in advance. There is a world of difference between getting 30mb and a 35ms ping, and getting 55-60mb and a <10ms ping.

For a start I am paying for the "up to" 76mb package, if the speeds I get end up below 52mb then I should be able to take the 52mb package instead, which will be cheaper and provide the exact same speeds. The fact that I seem to be getting stuck in a 76mb contract without knowing what speeds I *WILL* get is completely baffling to me. Hell what if I had an "impacted" line and got 35mb speeds? Then I could get the 38mb package at a fraction of the cost and again get the same speed, except 35mb is still within the minimum speed, so I get stuck paying for a 76mb package that runs at less than half that.

Effectively they are expecting people to sign long contracts with only a vague idea of what they will get as far as I can see. UNLESS you can cancel the contract after having it installed so you get a chance to test it (and of course it takes ~10 days to settle down before you really know what you will end up with).

In reply to a post by Ewok:

There is a world of difference between getting 30mb and a 35ms ping, and getting 55-60mb and a <10ms ping.

I am a gamer and my ping as shown in my earlier post is 15 ms do you honestly believe you would notice the differentiate between 10ms and 35ms in an online game?

Edited by deleted (Mon 19-Feb-18 19:10:15)

In reply to a post by Ewok:

There is no other option as it stands, unless I get 4g.

What i find staggering is that I apparently have to get tied into a 12 or 18 month contract for a service before I know what service I am going to get! I might get 60mb, I might get 30mb, I might have a 5ms ping, or I might have a 30ms ping. How the hell can I get tied into a long contract without know this stuff beforehand!?!? Its beyond ridiculous.

It is besides the point anyway, no ISP can guarantee you fast path, it is not how FTTC works. All FTTC ISPs use BT Openreach DLM, as such, you will find the line management basically the same across ISPs with some minor differences due to limited choice ISPs have.

Changing ISP will not fix your issue, Openreach DLM will kick in again on the new ISP in the same manner. DLM is not done by the ISP manually on FTTC, it is the way the technology works, something every ISP signs up to.

So yes, pings might not be as you desire due to your line condition, but changing ISP does not change your line - so short of the new ISP re-digging your whole line and giving you something substantially better, there is no point in thinking a switch of provider will gain a whole lot.

To confirm, you cannot forcibly request Fast Path, if your line can handle it DLM will apply it, on any ISP.

ISPs do not have management of your sync speed, noise margin etc.
Dynamic Line Management (DLM) is part of the technology developed. AAISP cannot simply disable it, nor can BT, to give a comparison. AAISP cannot force Fast Path, neither can BT.

Similarly, virginmedia do not guarantee pings of sub 10ms, they offer a gaming profile, however, I have yet to see any evidence what-so-ever that this does anything to improve pings. It seems a marketing gimmick with fast speeds rather than a huge technology adjustment.

As others have mentioned, where you require pings at this level, do what trading companies do and invest in a leased line with a defined service level agreement, this is a home service where you get mass market at a low price. On the whole, pings are generally good and acceptable.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Mon 19-Feb-18 19:12:54)

I know FTTC with BT CAN provide pings of 5ms, a friend has it a few miles away. What I take great exception to is having to enter into a long term contract without knowing what I am going to get in advance. There is a world of difference between getting 30mb and a 35ms ping, and getting 55-60mb and a <10ms ping.

The user has a line which can handle it, therefore they get the speed. It is the way the techology works.

For a start I am paying for the "up to" 76mb package, if the speeds I get end up below 52mb then I should be able to take the 52mb package instead, which will be cheaper and provide the exact same speeds. The fact that I seem to be getting stuck in a 76mb contract without knowing what speeds I *WILL* get is completely baffling to me. Hell what if I had an "impacted" line and got 35mb speeds? Then I could get the 38mb package at a fraction of the cost and again get the same speed, except 35mb is still within the minimum speed, so I get stuck paying for a 76mb package that runs at less than half that.

Worth raising with the provider, to see if they will agree for you to adjust the package if the speeds are not as promised. However, it is possible for uptake in your area to adjust, and crosstalk to rise 1 year down the line, which would lower your speeds - so the ISP has to draw a line.

Effectively they are expecting people to sign long contracts with only a vague idea of what they will get as far as I can see. UNLESS you can cancel the contract after having it installed so you get a chance to test it (and of course it takes ~10 days to settle down before you really know what you will end up with).

Given your estimates, indeed it is worth considering the 55Mbps package with the caveat the upload is 10Mbps, not 20Mbps. There is no 10 day settling period, DLM runs always 24/7 from day one until the day you close the service. It can make adjustments at any point in time, it does not "settle" down after 10 days. Generally, users notice no real changes beyond the first day or two, but there is no defined period as there was back in the ADSL days where providers all had their own DLM, this is now constant. My line has been full sync ever since day 1 with no drops etc noticeable, I have the 40Mbps package, as my line would only get around 55 to 60 anyway, and I have a big cost saving on this package.

Yep, I know for a fact I would, I've detected smaller differences than that, I can just feel it. I could live with 15ms if I had to.

Yep.

urgh the whole thing is just poorly done. I am expected to sign up to a 12+ month contract for a service that could be 30mb and 35ms ping, or 60mb and 5ms ping, but I have to be tied in to it before I find out, its like some sort of scam. Yes you may have a point that any FTTC service will end up with the same issue if the line is bad.....but that ignores the possibility that if the line is bad, a different type of connection might be better (such as 4g or VM or some other provider) and you have no option to go for that instead until its too late.

If the 60mb max is accurate then I may as well look at 52mb packages. Which rules out AA completely because I can't see anything other than the full 76mb package on their site.

I am having a very serious look at IDNET now because of the 1 month contract and their good reputation. It also means I can go for the 76mb package, see what speed I get, and then drop it down to the 55mb one if the speed arent worth it. Seems IDNET are in pole position now!

Edited by Ewok (Mon 19-Feb-18 21:07:03)

In reply to a post by Ewok:

If the 60mb max is accurate then I may as well look at 52mb packages. Which rules out AA completely because I can't see anything other than the full 76mb package on their site.

AAISP only offer the 76/20 because a year-ish ago they scrapped their 40/10 offering and lowered the price of 76/20 to the price they were selling 40/10 at.

IDNet don't offer 55/10. Only 76/20 and 40/10.

I think your safest bet for latency could be BT. AAISP has the benefit of consistency, but maybe worse routing, though that will depend where you are.

I have had FTTC from IDNet, Plusnet and now AAISP. The first two were typically around the 14ms mark, including interleaving which at its initial (normal) level adds 8ms.

Now on AAISP with no interleaving delay, (because G.INP is active on my line), it is around 18ms. I put that down to a more direct routing from my exchange to the first three than now to AA.

Although others have said that all ISPs (barring VM) are subject to the Openreach DLM on FTTC, latency is still greatly influenced by each ISP's backhaul at and from the exchange to their core routers. AUIU BT Retail and Plusnet both now go straight out to peering from the BT Wholesale network, though I could be completely mistaken!

I say "at" the exchange because each of BT Wholesale, Sky, TalkTalk, Vodafone have to have links from the Openreach termination equipment to their backhaul out of the exchange. (GEA cable links). The capacity they have at each FTTC headend exchange will vary.

Similarly at the point where BT Wholesale hand your data over to your ISP the ISP rents a given throughput capacity. If they save money there then throughput and latency can both suffer.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 20-Feb-18 00:04:20)

Pulse8 are also worth considering. 30 day contracts, just like IDNet.

The major difference being that you will be put on a TTB SMPF offering. Pulse8 do other options, but maybe not at the same price.

I'm with IDNet having previously been a Pulse 8 customer. Both are pretty good in my book.

On my line IDNet BTW has been better than Pulse8 TTB, which in turn was better than IDNet TTB.

Make of that what you will.

Isn't Pulse8 MPF TTB by default, and only SMPF if the customer requests a WLR3 line?

Oh for goodness sake (or something like that!), why do I get MPF and SMPF the wrong way around?!

You're dead right, Bob. It is MPF by default.

I'm sure Pulse8 will offer SMPF is available on request, but it may be a higher cost option.

I didn't know you had AAISP, last I knew it was Pulse8 or is that just the line rental/voice?

I do not want to get too far down the line of being against the smaller ISPs as I get bashed for it, although you can imagine which providers typically have the most direct peering.

Ultimately it is your choice, my personal view is the Safe Bet is BT, it's a good mix of price and overall reputation. It's also one of the few offering 55Mbps.

What is stopping you getting Infinity 1, and seeing how it fairs for you? I had 76Mbps for years and dropped to 55 with BT, then down to 38 when I moved flats and I notice zero difference day-to-day, no regrets for me, nice saving. Once you go live on Infinity 1, pop up the stats from the HelpDesk page of the SmartHub, here we can give you an idea of what speeds Infinity 2 would typically yield.

Looking at the estimates, I would say 50Mbps is a nice estimate, in many respects lines are more stable when they have a slightly lower speed and hence a higher noise margin. E.g my line has a 16db noise margin, hence it really never drops. If I went to a 76Mbps package and the noise margin went down to 3db, I am sure there would be the occasional drop.

Here are a few of my tests from the BT days (all tests over WiFi):
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/14770058691...
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/14716296064...
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/14833184342...
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/14796806831...

Here is my Sky line, as you can see with the two lines being quite separate, it shows evidence of congestion, Certainly, it is nowhere near as nice and smooth as my BT used to be:
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/15190894954...

I still manage a bunch of streaming, some gaming when I get chance etc on the Sky line and it's my daily driver right now. The point is my line right now is not perfect but day to day I don't really notice a real difference over my perfect 76Mbps line. Sometimes 4K struggles, but rarely, when it does it automatically falls back to 1080P and I don't really notice unless I check. I think overall you will be happy if you don't constantly run speedtests and look for faults, once you have it going you will just set it and forget it.

I think your prior fault with BT which was handled poorly is creating a lot of this anxiety. You were just unfortunate here, most of us have stable, solid lines.

Out of interest on your VM line can you run a speedtest here and post the results. The speedtest here gives a much better picture than the speedtest.net
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest

Edited by ukhardy07 (Tue 20-Feb-18 01:30:11)

I recommend you look and find out what cabinet your new property is connected to.
If you are lucky it is a Huawei cabinet. Very very few lines on Huawei cabinets have interleaving.
If you have an ECI cabinet and the line is too noisy for Fastpath, the default interleaving adds 8ms latency.
You can check what cabinnet type it is by following this guide.
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/cabinet-lookup.htm#fttc_c...

IDNET do offer 55/10, as well as 40/10, I was looking at it last night. I have been wondering whether BT would be better more due to their size and links with BT wholesale than anything else.

I would be surprised if AA was worse due to routing, given their reputation I would assume their routing to be as good as it gets, but perhps I am wrong.

I am looking at IDNET at the moment purely because I can take a 1 month contract which gives me a chance to assess how good or bad the line itself is as well as IDNET and what kind of pings I get, without getting me stuck in an 18 month contract with the likes of BT.

Yeah my previous experience with the old BT ADSL certainly has me concerned. The BT results look nice, plus look at that ping on Sky!! Not that I would consider going with Sky anyway, I know they are great for TV, bad for internet.

I have narrowed it down to either BT (where I don't really want to be stuck in a 18 month contract until I know what I'm getting), IDNET, and possibly Pulse8. With IDNET and Pulse8 having 1 month contracts meaning I can test things out and decide whether a move to BT and 18 month contract might be ok. They all offer the 55mb too which is what I will go for.

I guess your line at 25mb in that speed test is why it can struggle with the 4k, I suspect 4k can get to around 25mb when streaming to it's probably borderline.

I will run a test on my VM line tonight.

I spotted Pulse8 last night and noticed the 1 month contracts. But not been impressed with the few bits I have heard of TTB so would rather stick to BTW I think.

I know it is cabinet 18 at Chingford exchange, I will have to walk around and see if I can find it because I don't have a phone number I can use to look it up from.

The entire Chingford exchange is Huawei cabinets.

Ah . It only shows when you go into the ordering routine or hunt for the full price list. It doesn't show on the Home page, which I was looking at. I wonder how many people give up at that stage?

In reply to a post by Ewok:

I know it is cabinet 18 at Chingford exchange, I will have to walk around and see if I can find it because I don't have a phone number I can use to look it up from.

It shows on the Address option of the BT Wholesale estimates checker, but if as John says they are all Huawei on that exchange it doesn't matter.

IDNet do have the advantage of using three different backhaul providers (BTW, Fluid Data TTB and Zen) and are willing swap you to one of the other ones if you are having any issues which may be backhaul related.

IDNET is a great choice for sure, but to play devils advocate, say the pings are too high and the speeds are impacted, even if you leave - where are you going to?

A 4GLTE option will be slower with higher pings, a satellite will be dreadful. There is no VM as you state.

I know plenty are happy with IDNET here, I do not see much negative press (if any).

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

I recommend you look and find out what cabinet your new property is connected to.
If you are lucky it is a Huawei cabinet. Very very few lines on Huawei cabinets have interleaving.
If you have an ECI cabinet and the line is too noisy for Fastpath, the default interleaving adds 8ms latency.
You can check what cabinnet type it is by following this guide.
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/cabinet-lookup.htm#fttc_c...

As John says, if low latency is important, then you want to try to make sure G.INP activates, and DLM doesn't interfere. That means
- having a Huawei cabinet. G.INP isn't active on ECI yet.
- choosing an ISP that makes use of the loosest DLM settings offered by Openreach (is this the 'Speed' setting?)
- once operational, monitoring the error rate on the line
- if error rate high, fixing environment or forcing a lower speed.

Once DLM is involved, it doesn't always disengage easily. Proactive monitoring from day 1 is important, although even Huawei connections start with a higher latency setup for the first 48 hours.

If speed is important, you should pay attention to the A and B ranges on the checker, and only use an ISP that guarantees the A range. If the line has problems, you are more likely to get an engineer callout and a higher chance of killing the contract.

But ... honestly ... if the day job is trading, and it requires perfection, then go with FTTPoD or a leased line. FTTC is like ADSL - getting speed cheaply in the presence of imperfection.

Your VM connection is shared. What would you do now if 4 neighbours became torrent freaks overnight, and overloaded the segment they shared with you? You'd move, right? Consider yourself lucky that a cheap-as-chips connection meets your higher business needs, but don't assume that to be, or remain, universally true.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

Consider yourself lucky that a cheap-as-chips connection meets your higher business needs, but don't assume that to be, or remain, universally true.

Whoops ... hit send too quickly....

FTTC is variable, in that other subscribers can affect the service you receive. Through crosstalk, just one other subscriber, added anytime, can knock speed off your line, or increase error rates, or trigger DLM.

Even if FTTC meets your needs when it first starts, it might not forever. Again - the cheap-as-chips solution should be seen as a bonus.

My thinking is if there are issues then IDNET are more likely to sort them efficiently than BT and they have 3 different backhaul providers apparently, so if I have trouble with one, they can switch me to see if another is better. My 4g connection at home with EE has tested at speeds of 233mb with a 12-20ms ping on my phone so it might be a viable option depending how bad the line is, I thought about using that as my main connection anyway but I suspect the pricing will be high.

I am sure IDNET are good based on reviews I have seen, although I did email them yesterday with a bunch of questions, half of which they have not answered and the other half of which all they have done is quote the usual BS about things being related to distance, contention etc etc blah blah. I would have thought my email made it clear I am already well aware of that. The reply I got was exactly the sort of scripted type BS I would expect from BT, so not a good sign.

I also have the possibility of a job in Australia, which is another reason I would rather not be tied into an 18 month contract until I know whether that is going ahead or not.

Edited by Ewok (Tue 20-Feb-18 12:17:05)

You can drop them a call and see if they agree to a 12 month term, often times they do.
I am surprised RE IDNET but I have never dealt with them so I am taking the view of smaller ISP must mean better support, with little evidence either way, other than others here posting which seems promising.

Yeah I was expecting a detailed and useful reply from them. I got one from AA shortly after (who I have ruled out as they charge the same price for all speeds and me probably only getting 50mb makes them even more expensive) and was even worse, "the figures are usually pretty accurate and if they are much lower we can" and that was the end of the sentence! We can do what? haha.

I asked IDNET things like what difference should I expect between their normal package and the gaming one, so I can get some idea in real terms what the potential difference might be to justify the extra cost (yes it will vary but give me SOME idea of whatt he extra £10 gets me). And about how easy it is to switch between the gaming package and the normal one, or between different speeds. But got no answer on any of that. I strongly suspect the gaming package would be identical to the normal one, yes you get priority at the exchange but unless the exchange is overloaded to start with, that will make no difference. They do seem to have the advantage of 3 different backhauls though.

Still on the fence between BT and IDNET, I was favouring IDNET but after their reply and realising their pricing did not include VAT, I am kinda back in the middle again because I am looking at £45 for IDNET, and after various discounts (topcashback and the £150 mastercard) probably nearer half that for BT. The contract length is the main issue with BT, 6 months would be more reasonable but thats not going to happen.

If you call you will forego the mastercard etc but likely can discuss a 12 month contract term. Worth a chat to discuss what they can do / cannot do.
0800 800 150

Ok cool, will give it a go at the time. It will need some calculaton since the matercard offer plus cashback site will likely end up at near £250 which will be at least 6 months free anyway if all those offers are still around in a month or so. A lot will depend on whether the possible Aus job is still up in the air or not.

In reply to a post by Ewok:

Ahhh back to the good old days of having to figure out what the best modem is to try and get a better speed, then what the best settings are, then endless testing to tweak it, then monitoring it to make sure it doesnt drop in performance, then praying a bit of rain doesnt screw it all up every time.

Not necessary at all. To be honest I think you're overthinking the entire thing. Just pick an ISP and forget about it. Most customers on BT's network get the same experience regardless of their ISP. Some of the cheaper ISPs might have a bit more congestion at peak hours but probably not much.

Choice of modem might make a slight performance difference on paper at least but I doubt it will have the slightest effect in practice. Probably only worth worrying about for those on long lines that are at the limit of the technology. Router choice can matter if you want a complicated set up but even there your average off-the-shelf modem/router combo will likely suffice for most people.

xDSL is a stable and proven technology. No tweaking or head scratching required. The only technical knowledge needed is the whole 'line length v speed' bit but even that's not complicated.

Edited by Andrue (Tue 20-Feb-18 14:59:46)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

IDNet don't offer 55/10. Only 76/20 and 40/10.

Actually they do offer 55/10. See here.

TalkTalk declined my cashback since I received the GiftCard. Assume you get one offer, if you get lucky that is a bonus.
ISPs are much stricter nowadays.

EDITED as I realised it was TT who declined not BT.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Tue 20-Feb-18 15:10:38)

In reply to a post by Ewok:

Yeah I was expecting a detailed and useful reply from them. I got one from AA shortly after (who I have ruled out as they charge the same price for all speeds and me probably only getting 50mb makes them even more expensive) and was even worse, "the figures are usually pretty accurate and if they are much lower we can" and that was the end of the sentence! We can do what? haha.

I asked IDNET things like what difference should I expect between their normal package and the gaming one, so I can get some idea in real terms what the potential difference might be to justify the extra cost (yes it will vary but give me SOME idea of whatt he extra £10 gets me). And about how easy it is to switch between the gaming package and the normal one, or between different speeds. But got no answer on any of that. I strongly suspect the gaming package would be identical to the normal one, yes you get priority at the exchange but unless the exchange is overloaded to start with, that will make no difference. They do seem to have the advantage of 3 different backhauls though.

Still on the fence between BT and IDNET, I was favouring IDNET but after their reply and realising their pricing did not include VAT, I am kinda back in the middle again because I am looking at £45 for IDNET, and after various discounts (topcashback and the £150 mastercard) probably nearer half that for BT. The contract length is the main issue with BT, 6 months would be more reasonable but thats not going to happen.

Not sure why you haven't had a more detailed response. They answered all my questions very promptly and they are only a freephone call away if there is anything that isn't clear.

On the website. there is a simple home / business user button, which switches the pricing to include or exclude the VAT.

To me it is a simple choice. IDNet are competitive on cost and offer 1 month contracts. If there is any chance of you moving abroad then it's a bit of a no brainer go with IDNet and limit your exposure.

BT will almost certainly work out cheaper for the first 18 months because of their discounts and cashback card, but will be more expensive thereafter, unless you renegotiate with them and tie yourself back into a longer term contract.

I'd rather not have the hassle myself, but you may make a different choice.

I'd endorse your view that you are unlikely to see a difference between the gaming package and the standard one.

In reply to a post by Tacitus:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

IDNet don't offer 55/10. Only 76/20 and 40/10.

Actually they do offer 55/10. See here.

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4584013-sel...

In reply to a post by Ewok:

urgh the whole thing is just poorly done. I am expected to sign up to a 12+ month contract for a service that could be 30mb and 35ms ping, or 60mb and 5ms ping, but I have to be tied in to it before I find out, its like some sort of scam.

If there is any doubt, I would sign up for the lower speed, then when you get the connection, if the line looks good for a faster speed it may not be that difficult to persuade the ISP to accept more money for a faster speed.

That's what I was thiking, if may be going abroad then IDNET will probably be a must so the decision is simple. If not then its more complicated since BT will be significantly cheaper and I am far from convinced the resulting connection will be any different at all to BT!

I am certainly not dumb enough to be staying there past the contract without renegotiating the price, did the same with virgin and pay £30 for 200mb unlimited fibre, phone with weekend calls and the medium tv package. I don't like that hassle, but it was worth it.

Yeah I will definitely go for the 55mb package not 76 at this point.

yay!

That does sound inviting! Although how much difference there would be between any of them I don't know, can't imagine BTW being worse so it's probably a safe bet.

Here ya go https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/15191521751...

Sexy right, look at those curves!

That test is a bit slower than I get on any one of a dozen servers from speedtest.net where I consistently get a 7-10ms ping (rather than the 18 here) and it flies straight up to 220 and stays there. Still looks pretty good to me. This was at peak-ish time at 6.45pm today.

speedtest.net is misleading from the perspective:
1) Providers often ensure peering to this service is as good as it can be, whilst neglecting other things. Hence why the pings are likely better here, but in reality, you are likely experiencing higher pings on day-to-day tasks.
2) It uses multi-threads ie it combines multiple downloads at once, which hides congestion, whereas a video stream does not work this way and will experience the congestion.

This is why some ISPs only accept speedtests from certain sites, which usually are favorable to them.

The spikes on the single-thread are not ideal and the separation of the two lines indicates a slight amount of congestion, but certainly, at those speeds you will not experience any issues. These spikes could also indicate some sort of QOS setup internally, or similar.

Certainly speed-wise you will be taking a cut during your switch, but hopefully the quality will remain as good, or better.

Worth mentioning not all backhaul is the same e.g one ISP may use TalkTalk backhaul, but due to their agreement with TalkTalk, not purchase adequate capacity and hence lead to congestion whereas another customer using TalkTalk retail may notice no congestion, same underlying backhaul provider but very different end-user experience.

Oh I don't use that to test my pings properly anyway, I have an old tool from my Ultima Online days called UOTRACE which allows me to put an address or IP in there and poll it with pings with whatever delay I want to set (I have it on 10ms but I don't think it's actually sending them out quite that fast). So I can send a crapload of pings and monitor both the ping AND the variation in it to watch for spikes. I use it when I am testing different VPN's to see what kind of quality the ping is and not just the raw number. Funnily enough I usually use www.adslguide.org.uk as my main test site to point it at but also a few others like bbc.

Yeah I might get lucky and the total bandwidth will be lower but the quality might be higher. Although a lot more people here will have BT than VM and checking speed test guides for the area suggests very bad speeds of 26mb at most (of course I have no idea what package these people are on and there were not many test results shown on the map).

Don't IDNET charge £150 to switch your standard phone line over from Virgin?

In reply to a post by BoyGroucho:

Don't IDNET charge £150 to switch your standard phone line over from Virgin?

Indeed, they do. That may well prove a little little off putting for Ewok.

I am not switching form Virgin, I am moving house and Virgin do not cover my new address (which is literally in the next road!). There is a BT ADSL socket already in the new place (I don't know if its new or old but whoever was there before has clearly had some sort of dsl) so I expect it will just be a case of re-activating it (although IDNET might still charge £75 just for that??).

What is putting me off IDNET is the cost. I will have to go for the 55mb package since my line will apparently go to 60mb at best. It is going to cost £45 on IDNET plus the cost of the hardware. On BT, taking into account discounts, it may be as low as £22 (£150 mastercard, £90 cashback if I get away with having both) and on top of that I get the hardware and tv (even though its basically just freeview plus bt sport that I dont care about, its still a nice perk). I am struggling to justify double the cost for what I suspect has got to be virtually the same quality of connection.

The only advantages IDNET seem to have are 1 month contract, and no censoring (the 'big 6' block certain sites).

Edited by Ewok (Tue 20-Feb-18 21:40:48)

There have been 108 replies in this thread so far and you still seem to be dithering over the choice of Isp. You seem to want the moon on a stick i.e. everything, and pay very little for it, if you don't want to pay much go for BT with all the offers as has been suggested, if you have to cancel the contract for whatever reason it is hardly a huge financial loss.

Where you are moving in, the existing homeowner is likely to have canceled their services, which ceases the line, so indeed it now is setup as a new line, not an existing one.

Typical fees apply for this. You want the pricing of mass market with the perks of the smaller providers which doesn't really exist. When you consider BT providing you a service on average of just over £20, they are able to do it given 1) Their sheer size and 2) Willingness to take a possible loss now with a view you could be a customer for 10+ years.

You have a number of difficulties there. Things to consider that may help or complicate sorry (in no specific order as I have partaken of "refreshment" ) are:

- if you take a longish minimum term with BT it is still simple to leave. This doesn't involve completely paying off the contracted term. Ofcom forbade that years ago. You should be able to find in the various T & Cs and Legal pages what their current charges are for non-completed months;

- on "Ceasing" either BT or IDNet service completely there is likely to be a (small) "Cease" charge passed on from Openreach. I expect IDNet pass it on, BT may not;

- a top-end speed estimate of whatever it was is very likely to be conservative, and the actual is normally considerably higher. Particularly if G.INP kicks in on the line (very frequent on Huawei cabinets). See below my current sync in my sig v the estimates. I don't think the estimates take into account the considerable increase resulting from the higher sync resulting from the reduction of the sync-time noise margin from the standard 6dB to the "clean-line" 3dB.

VDSL Range A (Clean) 64.1 44.8 17.4 11.5 39.8 Available -- --
VDSL Range B (Impacted) 54.6 35 15.2 7.9 29.8 Available -- --;

- you need to factor in that BT reduced early termination charge taking account of the "joining goodies", and the time that could elapse between your getting this Aus job and leaving the country. (I don't think BT claim back/charge re the enticement goodies if you leave early but I leave that to you to check).

Moving from ADSL2+ on O2, when O2 broadband existed but I smelt the rat, I chose IDNet for their reputation, which is also influencing you. After twelve months of no problem I decided I was paying a lot extra for CS quality that I didn't need. I decided to migrate to Plusnet, and never regretted that.

However after a couple of years or so I began to worry about what would happen with Plusnet CS if I did have a problem. The "new at the time" CEO greatly reduced the priority of CS and went from a genuine market competitor to a BT counter-attacker on TalkTalk. (That CEO of Plusnet and any later ones are not on Plusnet's payroll. He/They are paid by BT and BT charge Plusnet for their services. Get the gist? Confirmed this year by the announcement of becoming just a brand-name).

In the end I opted for my current setup of Pulse8 line (very cheap and no minimum term) and AAISP. AA initially at £45pm, and reduced by them as mentioned earlier to £35.

AAISP seem to be very good on big problems. I'm less than convinced they can be bothered about minor ones. Similarly, I wasn't impressed by IDNet's response to a couple of difficulties other customers had. And some since.

Finally, given the somewhat hazy information we get about how BT Retail and BT Wholesale intereact technically, where I get the feeling there is no handover to Retail from Wholesale before data leaves (and enters) the world-wide peering systems, (all other BTW-using ISPs have a handover to their own routers), BT Retail/Business seem to have the edge on latency.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The HG612 however is very long in the tooth in two ways. Simple age, and cheap modems degrade, and secondly it definitely sync's several Mbps lower than more modern ones.

AAISP supply (if required) the ZyXel VMG1312-B10D, which doesn't have the B10A IPv6 problem. It can be used in modem-only mode to customer routers.

Loads of faulty ones too that cause intermittent disconnections. Though hopefully by now TalkTalk got to the bottom of which ones were faulty. One useful thing was they�d always show up on Openreach�s test systems as the test heads saw the faulty router as a high resistance fault!

Ok thanks for all the info, ZyXel VMG1312-B10A is the one I will go for and stick it in bridge mode.

My cabinet is a Huawei so this should be the best one I think.

Edited by Ewok (Sat 03-Mar-18 17:50:06)