FTTP - Does this mean I won't be able to get it ?

I am trying to work out if I am always going to be excluded from an ongoing FTTP installation in our small village where we currently have only very slow ADSL or potentially BDUK funded Airband (fixed wireless) that has such a poor reputation I wouldn't touch it.

A couple of months ago I checked the Openreach Fibre Checker for our house and the result was "We don’t have plans to upgrade your area yet to our fibre services..." However, every other property in our village apart from us and our immediate neighbour (currently receiving services from the same overhead pole as us) showed "we are starting to roll out our Ultrafast Full Fibre in your area". I contacted Openreach to check and was told that plans had changed and there was no planned roll-out of Fibre in our village.

Out of the blue, a couple of weeks ago I spotted some contractors working in behalf of Openreach cutting branches of trees on our property that are near the road and the line of the overhead copper. After some negotiation, they agreed to minimise the cutting but said, don't worry fibre is being installed as soon as they finish the cutting. Sure enough over the next 2 weeks, fibre was installed from near the Exchange past our house to the rest of the village. A joint was put in on the pole currently serving us and our immediate neighbour, as was the case for all of the poles that served single houses or groups of houses. However, CBTs were installed on every such pole apart from ours, so the nearest pole with a CBT is about 5 away. The Engineer carrying out the installation said he couldn't understand why a CBT wasn't being installed on our pole.

So after raising an online query with Openreach in which the reply said there hadn't been a mistake, I escalated the issue with Openreach and the response was very fast. However after investigating, they came back to me saying that this was a BT initiated USO installation so they couldn't give me any information. I spoke to the BT USO help line and they said that Openreach decides which properties are connected as part of the USO, which doesn't make sense. What is even odder, they told me that of 37 properties in the village only 5 are eligible for the USO as others could receive Airband fixed wireless services. They couldn't/wouldn't tell me why 35 of the properties have connections ready for FTTP (30 of which are not eligible for the USO) and 2 have been excluded. I also can't work out how the cost of this would have been covered by the USO funding on 5 houses. The planned go live date is just before Christmas.

So I am stuck between Openreach and BT trying to find out why my property has been excluded. A single overhead fibre cable runs from near the Exchange about 2 miles away (the last bit to the Exchange will be underground as far as I can tell) all through the village. Houses before and after ours have the CBTs on their poles but not ours. If there is a joint on our pole is it as simple as having a CBT installed there to be ready for our connection and if so how can I make sure that this happens ?

Any thoughts or advice would be very welcome.

Many Thanks. William

Edited by WFH1 (Sat 06-Nov-21 18:30:07)

tl;dr

So 37? houses in village
5 eligible for USO
Openreach have FTTP-enabled 35 of the 37 under USO
2 properties in the village missed

Is that about right?

Hi Pheasant.

Exactly right ! I really can't understand whether Openreach decided to supplement the BT paid USO implementation but then why miss out 2 houses. You would have thought that the incremental cost of adding a house would be very small which makes the whole situation very odd.

I couldn't work out why they bothered to put a joint on our pole if they weren't going to install a CBT there.


Thanks

William

Gotcha. The 2 properties missed are 5 pole spans from the last CBT. They may have decided it was a bit much for them to absorb the additional costs. Playing devils advocate.

Might be worth raising it with the CEO? Sounds like the usual avenues of appeal are drawing a blank.

Many thanks Pheasant. Just to clarify, the two properties missed are 5 poles from the nearest CBT, but the fibre runs right past the 2 properties and even has a joint on the pole that serves them and then continues to the next couple of properties (about 10 poles further on in the other direction) and then on the further properties. So the 2 houses missed are right in the middle of the fibre route with properties either side connected.

I did raise it with the CEO and the team was very responsive but as soon as they saw it as a USO installation, they said they couldn't get involved and couldn't tell me anything. I will try again though.

If this genuinely is a USO implementation, can Openreach piggyback off it in future to serve our property (just needs a CBT and 30m of fibre to the house ?) if we can't get any result now ?

Just surmising here, but the fibre running past the non-enabled properties may be the spine fibre on its way to the splitter node which serves the local CBT’s in the village build from the aggregation node. Therefore may not necessarily be easy to tap into if that makes sense.

Someone from Openreach may be able to explain the ins and out of USO from the perspective of funding, obligations and mixing commercial rollouts etc.

From a techical perspective Openreach FTTP is Openreach FTTP and the network is one and 100% compatible whatever the “funding” pot is to get it built. Saying that there are capacity constraints, and it may be more difficult to extend or piggyback off an isolated build if that makes sense.

The outlook from OR may change after a given period, perhaps 12 months…again surmising don’t know the details around USO and what is or isn’t sacrosanct with ‘em.

Edited by Pheasant (Sat 06-Nov-21 21:20:01)

Deep breaths,

Please do not take what i'm about to say means that you are gonna get fttp. But CBTs on every pole, is not how how it goes. From your home to the cbt, can have a span of 160m or more..

I'm confused as to why the uso team are confused.

Five poles from a current CBT to the pole outside the OP’s is going to be around 250 metres …

There met be other issues not immediately apparent to the OP, line of sight, wayleaves, etc.

Pheasant, Taras & Zarjaz - many thanks for your input.

You are right that the nearest pole with a CBT is some 250m away from the pole in front of my house so maybe this would be an option but obviously not intended as per the Openreach Fibre checker where our house is shown as not included (and I have confirmation from Openreach).

I still can't understand why they bothered to put a joint in the fibre on our pole if they didn't intend to make connections possible from there as they could have easily run fibre straight between the poles (5 one way and 10 the other way) that have joints/CBTs on them. I can post a photo if this is of any use . As Pheasant says, there may be technical reasons and it is not easy to see the full details of the installation by just looking at it. It does seem totally linear with no branches off, a single cable between each pole and a joint and CBT on every pole that serves houses (about 8 such poles) , but must confess I don't fully understand how an installation like this is normally structured. At the moment, the fibre is just spooled up on the last pole nearest the exchange (still about half a mile further on from this) right next to the cabinet that currently serves us with phone line/adsl. The final link to the Exchange from there will be in underground ducts I think.

The most frustrating thing is that someone must have planned this installation and made a conscious decision to exclude our house (and immediate neighbour) but include all other houses between us and the Exchange and between us and the last part in the village proper beyond in the other direction. Finding out whether this is the BT USO team or Openreach seems impossible as everyone I speak to only has visibility (or is prepared to share) a very small part of the whole. How so many non USO eligible homes have been included is a mystery.

USO team at BT sound like they’re pointing the finger at Openreach and vice versa.

Devils advocate again; perhaps someone made a mistake covering the 35 properties (outside the 5 under the USO obligation) and they don’t want to compound or exacerbate the error - even though from what you’ve said it makes little logical sense to exclude the 2 remaining properties that are in the middle of the build.

Have you written to the USO Help team asking for clarification and assistance? I know you spoke to them.

Some idea of the location would be useful, exchange name and cabinet number might be enough. There are members of this forum with inside knowledge who may be able to help. A photo of the pole with the joint may tell us something. The most frustrating aspect of this is that it is very difficult to contact the departments involved and when you do they can't or won't tell you what's going on.

There is finger pointing happening and at the end of the day two properties who are in the uso have been left out. There is cfp, and the new fftpod trial, from march that will lower the price.

We don't know where the OP lives, as this may be of help to resolve this mess quickly .

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

USO team at BT sound like they’re pointing the finger at Openreach and vice versa.

Devils advocate again; perhaps someone made a mistake covering the 35 properties (outside the 5 under the USO obligation) and they don’t want to compound or exacerbate the error - even though from what you’ve said it makes little logical sense to exclude the 2 remaining properties that are in the middle of the build.

Have you written to the USO Help team asking for clarification and assistance? I know you spoke to them.

Pheasant - many thanks - that is exactly right. I did speak to OFCOM and they said raise a formal complaint with BT so I have done this. They also suggested I contact my MP. I will try and find an address/email to contact the BT UFO team - at the moment I can only find their phone number, but can ask them for an email address.

Rightly or wrongly, I am working on the presumption that there is more likely to be action if I keep pestering Bt and Openreach !

In reply to a post by Taras:

There is finger pointing happening and at the end of the day two properties who are in the uso have been left out. There is cfp, and the new fftpod trial, from march that will lower the price.

We don't know where the OP lives, as this may be of help to resolve this mess quickly .

Technically according to the OP the 2 missed properties fall outside the scope / criteria for the USO, as do the other 30 properties which have been enabled. I think that’s the crux of the dilemma.

If they were in scope of the USO then that’s a different matter. I think the OP is appealing to their collective sense of common sense in this.

In reply to a post by WFH1:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

USO team at BT sound like they’re pointing the finger at Openreach and vice versa.

Devils advocate again; perhaps someone made a mistake covering the 35 properties (outside the 5 under the USO obligation) and they don’t want to compound or exacerbate the error - even though from what you’ve said it makes little logical sense to exclude the 2 remaining properties that are in the middle of the build.

Have you written to the USO Help team asking for clarification and assistance? I know you spoke to them.

Pheasant - many thanks - that is exactly right. I did speak to OFCOM and they said raise a formal complaint with BT so I have done this. They also suggested I contact my MP. I will try and find an address/email to contact the BT UFO team - at the moment I can only find their phone number, but can ask them for an email address.

Rightly or wrongly, I am working on the presumption that there is more likely to be action if I keep pestering Bt and Openreach !

I just searched and found the email from this page:
https://www.bt.com/broadband/usoterms

[email protected]

I may have misread that part last night. opps

In reply to a post by Realalemadrid:

Some idea of the location would be useful, exchange name and cabinet number might be enough. There are members of this forum with inside knowledge who may be able to help. A photo of the pole with the joint may tell us something. The most frustrating aspect of this is that it is very difficult to contact the departments involved and when you do they can't or won't tell you what's going on.

Realalemadrid and Taras - The Exchange is North Tamerton and we are served by Cabinet 2. The village is Tetcott (EX22 6QZ, 6QP, 6QR, 6QS) I have a photo of the fibre junction outside my house and just trying to find how to include in my post !

Good info on the location etc. There are some very helpful folk here in the know from BT / Openreach that peruse the forums and may be able to provide some assistance.

Re photo etc. You can use an image hosting website like for example:

https://imgbb.com

https://postimages.org

Then post the resulting link(s) in your reply here

Pheasant many thanks for the emaill address and the image hosting link.

This is the fibre joint on the pole immediately outside our house.

Fibre Joint

Thanks. My uneducated take is that there is technically probably quite little issue.

Sounds more ‘contractual’ / commercial scope vs USO scope / etc. That may actually be quite difficult to untangle, but hopefully some help and focus may get this resolved for you.

In reply to a post by WFH1:

Rightly or wrongly, I am working on the presumption that there is more likely to be action if I keep pestering Bt and Openreach !

That is precisely the correct approach to take, maintaining of course sensible and non emotive discourse. You strike me as a very steady and level headed person.

The challenge of course is finding someone both interested and empowered to help you. Persistence always pays off.

two things that strike me atm, is firstly is this a db issue and somehow, WFH1 was once included and some how got dropped off in the build.

Or did they screw up the build.

WFH1, Have you contacted openreach via the website asking when will i get fttp?

In reply to a post by Taras:

WFH1, Have you contacted openreach via the website asking when will i get fttp?

Taras

Yes, I did speak with someone at Openreach via the online chat and he then rang me. He did look at the plans and said that the pole outside our house is shown as "Fibre Enabled" in the build plans but couldn't explain why the CBT was missed off or why the database shows that we are not in a Fibre Area. As a result I sent an email to the CEO and had a very good chat with a helpful member of the Executive Level Complaints Team who was certain that they could sort it out. I was impressed with the response. However when he came back to me a couple of days later he said that he couldn't tell me anything as this was a BT USO installation. It was if they had closed ranks.

I then spoke to the USO team who claimed it was an Openreach decision on how they planned the infrastructure, but couldn't accept that the BT team must have said to Openreach that they need certain properties connected and how much will it cost etc. They must have signed off the project. It just doesn't make sense that so many non eligible houses have been included in the build but we have been left off. Something odd has definitely happened and maybe nobody wants to own up to what has happened as Pheasant suggests.

I went back to the Openreach Executive Complaints person I dealt with but so far no response to my email.

I will send an email to the BT USO Team and I think try again with the Openreach CEO route as I just want to know whether I will get FTTP and how and if not, why not.

i assume you premise is covered by BDUK and therefore from an intervention perspectvie your premise is covered (even though yopu dislike the technology) -- i assume the OSO premises (which is driven by BT and not via Openreach) looked at the premises that were not covered by BDUK and could be USO which is why they have been covered (there are very specific rules around USO ) they have left a joint to enable your premises to be done at a later stage (if funding or wiillingness to fund is available ) -- i cannoto see the situation changing as you are not eligible for USO

The BT uso, team, really shouldn't exist, it should be under openreach. I think you will not much joy via that route. Keep with openreach, as they do the infrastructure not bt (even though bt own OR).

Its a bit like Zen having a uso team.

Cost could be the factor, but cfp could be it but you shouldn't be using that since the uso should cover it. The reason i bring up the cost factor is due to the low density of houses/properties in the area.

Are you under 10mbits with the wholesale checker? I checked the "the mill" and that was 0.1mbit

I thought the new uso was covered by openreach and not the bt retail arm

In reply to a post by Fastman3:

i assume you premise is covered by BDUK and therefore from an intervention perspectvie your premise is covered (even though yopu dislike the technology) -- i assume the OSO premises (which is driven by BT and not via Openreach) looked at the premises that were not covered by BDUK and could be USO which is why they have been covered (there are very specific rules around USO ) they have left a joint to enable your premises to be done at a later stage (if funding or wiillingness to fund is available ) -- I cannot see the situation changing as you are not eligible for USO

Fastman3 - I agree that our house is not covered by the USO. The real puzzle is that only 5 houses out of 37 are covered by the USO but 35 houses (5 eligible, 32 non eligible) have the fibre connections ready for FTTP as part of the USO project. As our house is one of the 2 not covered, I wanted to understand why specifically we were excluded as I would have expected only 5 to have fibre connections or if a different process was being applied, why not cover every house including our house and our immediate neighbour. My complaint is on the grounds that we have been unfairly discriminated against for what appears to be no valid reason.

You are right that BDUK funding has been used by Connecting Devon and Somerset to contract with Airband to provide Fixed Wireless in some areas including our village. It is ironic if the publicly funded BDUK solution prevents us benefiting from the much better future proof technology of FTTP.

In reply to a post by Taras:

Are you under 10mbits with the wholesale checker? I checked the "the mill" and that was 0.1mbit

Taras- we are at approx 5mbps, so if it wasn't for Airband, we would be included. I don't know where the Airband mast is, so it might be that in practice they couldn't even supply our house anyway.

In reply to a post by Taras:

The BT uso, team, really shouldn't exist, it should be under openreach

It was BT, not Openreach, that won the right to be the USO provider for the UK (apart from KCOM for the Hull region)

However this also allows BT to use non-Openreach infrastructure to provide USO-level services, most importantly 4G.

In reply to a post by WFH1:

In reply to a post by Taras:

Are you under 10mbits with the wholesale checker? I checked the "the mill" and that was 0.1mbit

Taras- we are at approx 5mbps, so if it wasn't for Airband, we would be included. I don't know where the Airband mast is, so it might be that in practice they couldn't even supply our house anyway.

You need an on record account from Airband that confirms they can’t supply you with sufficient signal strength for their service due to the large stand of trees/hillside/castle/moat that’s in their mast’s line of sight. If you get me drift….

Edited by Pheasant (Sun 07-Nov-21 18:09:40)

Taras you are incorret -- the USO is nothing to do with openreach nor should it be there are 2 technology for USO 4G / FTTP - its is BT Retail responsibility on USO --

Well, the plot thickens...

Last night I looked at the Airband coverage checker and for those properties previously shown as not able to receive their Fixed Wireless offering (and thus eligible for the USO) they now show Full Fibre coming soon - up to 250Mbps ! So is the fibre installation in the village actually a BT USO offering or an Airband BDUK installation ?

I rang Airband this morning and they said this was an Airband installation and that all properties including ours are covered for FTTP with go live in the first half of next year. I tried to explain the issue of the missing CBT but the person I spoke with didn't know what I was talking about !

So on the face of it, it seems as though the information that the Openreach Executive Complaints Team gave me that this was a BT USO implementation was incorrect. Not sure why they told me this, as there can't be a link between a BT USO and Airband as far as I can see.

I will double back with Openreach to see if they will confirm this.

I will post any updates and must apologise for the incorrect information I was given.

Thanks to everyone for their generous input.

That sounds vaguely more positive. More information may become available as the build progresses to completion. If you can get through to the right person and explain what’s happening, then there’s a good chance your missing connections may be done before they connect the rest of the village.

You know have a real reason to speak with Airband 😎

Its definitely openreach. Maybe Airband have some BDUK elsewhere that's close by , but the node on the pole is definitely openreach network for USO

In reply to a post by witchunt:

Its definitely openreach. Maybe Airband have some BDUK elsewhere that's close by , but the node on the pole is definitely openreach network for USO

witchunt - you make a good point. It is Openreach equipment (CBTs etc) outside every house that Airband claim to be offering Full Fibre to next year.

Airbands website confirms that they use separate infrastructure:

Do Airband utilise existing Openreach infrastructure/cabinets?

In short, our fibre network is totally independent of BT/Openreach, but to minimise adding new infrastructure, we often use theirs. Normally, we only use BT’s ducts – the small tunnels under roads for cables. We install our own cabinets in places that don’t have any infrastructure, but we do occasionally use Openreach cabinets where it is viable to do so.

I don't think that I will get any true clarity until the installation is complete. To be honest I would rather stick with a 5Mbps reliable BT service than a very unreliable Airband service !

This does seem to illustrate the messy situation in this country regarding the roll out of FTTP.

Witchunt

Can you confirm the whole village is covered or is this beyond your allowability?

I suspect that the OP may be able to be served by one of the other CBTs and the checker doesn't show this yet.

Any hints would be valuable.

Thanks

Witchunt has confirmed that the infrastructure build is definitely Openreach so I wouldn't pay much attention to what Airband are saying, they don't use OR fibre equipment, just share ducts where possible which doesn't apply when lines are overhead. You still need to push Openreach for answers.

In reply to a post by Realalemadrid:

You still need to push Openreach for answers.

Realalemadrid - I just got another response back from the Openreach Executive Complaints Team which indicated that for confidentiality reasons they had no access to USO project information so couldn't tell me anything.

I am trying again with the BT USO Helpdesk, but am not hopeful of getting a meaningful response.

Doesn't make much sense to me, Openreach are building it but have no access to the USO project information. Do you really believe that?. Why is a USO project such a closely guarded secret?

I guess it's commercial confidential between openreach and their customer (BT Consumer provide the USO).

In reply to a post by Realalemadrid:

Doesn't make much sense to me, Openreach are building it but have no access to the USO project information. Do you really believe that?. Why is a USO project such a closely guarded secret?

Is sounds of though as BT is contracting Openreach as part its USO obligations, only BT and not Openreach can divulge details to 3rd parties like me due to the nature of the contract. BT can choose to get the details from Openreach and share this, but the issue is whether they will be bothered to do so.

I agree it makes no real sense, but this is often the case. I suspect that BT and Openreach have to show they have an arms length relationship now that they are separate entities.

Can you confirm the whole village is covered

I don't see it wouldn't be.

Witchunt

Thanks

In reply to a post by witchunt:

Can you confirm the whole village is covered

I don't see it wouldn't be.

Witchunt, many thanks for looking at this and for your valued input.

WFH1

See Witchunt post of 15.41.This is likely to be your clearest indication that you will be covered. So it is likely that you will be served off one of the CBT nodes on a different pole. As these can handle up to 12 connections not every pole will have one fitted.

Find the DP your copper comes from this will be where your FTTP is likely to come from using the same routing as the copper. ( There is a small chance that it will come from a different direction around 1%). You will find a DP number on the Label, the poles outside yours may have the same number followed by a suffix.

Edited by kitcat (Mon 08-Nov-21 16:41:40)

kitcat - many thanks. At the moment our copper connection is on the pole directly over the road from our house. This is the one with the Fibre Node, but no CBT.

By the sounds of it, there is a good chance that we will get FTTP either from the pole 5 along with a CBT or from our pole if they add a CBT to the existing Fibre Node. I must confess I don't know whether technically it is as simple as adding a CBT to the node or whether there is a lot more to it.

Thanks Witchunt for releasing that info.Hopefully WFH1 will be fibred up in 2022

WFH1

I realise the copper comes via the pole but this is unlikely to be the DP ( Distribution point), But just a subsidiary pole. DPs will have a tag on them with a number that is unique to the exchange. The CBTs are only likely to go on the DPs.

If the one you refer to as Pole 5 as the number 5 on it that is DP 5.

Does your pole have a DP number on it?

Cavalry’s arrived. Let’s hope the OP get’s sorted. What a mess!

In reply to a post by kitcat:

WFH1

I realise the copper comes via the pole but this is unlikely to be the DP ( Distribution point), But just a subsidiary pole. DPs will have a tag on them with a number that is unique to the exchange. The CBTs are only likely to go on the DPs.

If the one you refer to as Pole 5 as the number 5 on it that is DP 5.

Does your pole have a DP number on it?

Kitcat, many thanks for helping me understand the set up. That makes sense. I will have a look at the poles tomorrow and give an update

I do want to thank everyone for your generosity of time and for sharing your invaluable knowledge on the issue I have. It does seem as though there is light at the end of the tunnel, which is great news.

I promise to keep you updated on progress and thank you again for your kind help.

William

In reply to a post by WFH1:

It does seem as though there is light at the end of the tunnel, which is great news.
William

I think it's light at the end of the fibre you need.
Well somebody had to post it. 😛

I do think theres a massive increase of it because of the rapid nature of not just OR but also the alt.nets roll out plans. Uso adds in another spanner which whilst laudable in its nature, could have been handled better.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Does your pole have a DP number on it?

Kitcat - I checked and the pole outside our house (missing the CBT) does have DP number on it.

I thought that I would update you as I am now up and running on FTTP !

I lost count of how many emails I sent and phone conversations that I had with BT and Openreach, but thanks to the advice from everyone on the Forum, I eventually managed to get a positive outcome.

After my last post, I complained to the BT USO team about why I was excluded and they decided that I was now eligible under the scheme. The initial estimate from Openreach was a cost of £2,000 to £5,000. The USO team then asked for a full quote which came back as £25,000 !. The USO team realised that this wasn't right as nobody in the village had paid anything, so challenged Openreach and on the day that others in the village could first order FTTP, Openreach said that I was included in the roll-out so no cost to me. However, Openreach said that the normal 12 month lead time for USO orders had to start again for me as I had missed out on the initial implementation. So good and bad news. I challenged, but got nowhere.

However, in parallel many months ago (before I knew that I was eligible for the USO) I had raised a query through the Openreach website - why my neighbours could get FTTP but not me. I had various replies over the months saying that this was being looked at. So when BT placed the USO order for me, I emailed Openreach and then a couple of weeks later got a reply that they could see that the planned FTTP equipment for me hadn't been installed but that they could associate my address with the fibre infrastructure installed for my neighbours. The next day I was able to place an order - the BTW checker showed KCI2 Assure for the installation. The BT USO team was quite surprised that this happened so quickly.

A Kelly Communications engineer turned up a week later saying that I would be connected to the CBT 5 poles away but he would need a 350m CBT cable which he didn't carry. A week later he was back and spent a day installing the cable. I am sure that this was not easy as he was on his own with just a ladder and there is a tree in our garden between the final pole and our house. The engineer was really helpful and routed the cable and fitted the CSP exactly where I wanted it (which was not the same place as the existing copper connection). A few days later, on schedule, Openreach came and completed the installation.

I will never know why I was excluded initially given that the fibre ran past my house, but with perseverance and all your help I got the result that I wanted.

Thanks again for all your help. William

Edited by WFH1 (Sun 06-Mar-22 13:57:41)

That’s excellent William. What a great result - perseverance pays off in the end!!

Enjoy your new connection.

WFH1

Great news , glad your persistence paid off.

Enjoy your new connection.

I always find it strange that OR sometimes cant climb the pole without someone on the ground as backup but their contractors can..

Contractors get paid per job completed so are often prepared to skip a bit of safety protocol to get the job done.
Openreach employees are obliged to follow the guidelines laid down or risk disciplinary action .