one more day for openreach to dig.

I have said in other posts that I think openreach is doing somethng up here, according to bidb.uk, openreach is supposed to have roadworks down the bottom of my street from 22/08 to 24/08, so far nothing whatsoever, so maybe they are not doing anything after all.

I have not heard anything today and I walked past there yesterday and nothing.,

Took too long on previous job maybe, if so it will be booked again but local council will have rules on how much notice they need. I had then turn up with no notification, they got dobbed in and took off 2 days later and then the job was entered for a start date 3 weeks later.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I have not heard anything today and I walked past there yesterday and nothing.,

Or they did everything they needed to do underground and it wasn’t visible?

I don't think so, if they did, why did they need to apply for roadworks? I have not seen any vans up here, about from a highway maintenance one.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I don't think so, if they did, why did they need to apply for roadworks? I have not seen any vans up here, about from a highway maintenance one.

So they could put up traffic lights if they needed to lift a grid in the middle of the road? Planning for all eventualities?

Fibre is going in round me and the booked roadworks for unblocking ducts and adding new bends to telegraph poles didn't happen last week. All the poles have CBTs now...

It's possible they submit permits for anything that could possibly need doing so that when they get to the actual day they can go ahead and dig without having to stop and submit plans for the work.

As you've repeatedly said you don't want FTTP anyway so who cares?

In reply to a post by jpm:

It's possible they submit permits for anything that could possibly need doing so that when they get to the actual day they can go ahead and dig without having to stop and submit plans for the work.

That could be true, I have not seen any vans of any sort, Openreach or Zzoomm for about a week, not that I have been very far,

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

As you've repeatedly said you don't want FTTP anyway so who cares?

I am just being nosy, want to know what is going on in the street I live in. I could also change my mind, but I can't see it, well nor for a while anyway.

The thing I always remind people is that you shouldn't need to pay any more per month to switch from Plusnet Unlimited Fibre Extra to Full Fibre 74

In reply to a post by dect:

The thing I always remind people is that you shouldn't need to pay any more per month to switch from Plusnet Unlimited Fibre Extra to Full Fibre 74

Current pricing I'm offered:

Unlimited Fibre Extra: £24.99 per month, 18 month contract, £70 reward card, voice line included
Full Fibre 74: £24.99 per month, 24 month contract, no reward card, no voice service

So technically you don't need to "pay any more per month" - but they're not going out of their way to make FTTP attractive.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by dect:

The thing I always remind people is that you shouldn't need to pay any more per month to switch from Plusnet Unlimited Fibre Extra to Full Fibre 74

Current pricing I'm offered:

Unlimited Fibre Extra: £24.99 per month, 18 month contract, £70 reward card, voice line included
Full Fibre 74: £24.99 per month, 24 month contract, no reward card, no voice service

So technically you don't need to "pay any more per month" - but they're not going out of their way to make FTTP attractive.

It is not just about price, as I have said before., it is also the hassle of having it installed.

plusnet says Flexible 24 month contracts, how can a 24 month contract be flexible?
So how fast is your £24 a month connection?

I went for a walk today to get some air and still nothing down the road, but the next road the barriers around the telegraph pole have gone, in the next street again, which is behind my house, I saw some people sitting next to a G.P.O manhole and a roll of cable by it. No idea if they were Open reach or zzoomm. The vans had Highway maintenance on them. So I presumed they were hired. I saw one go past here yesterday with a cherry picker on it.
so i don't know what is what now. I did notice that one of the other estate, the one where zzoomm first started, have now also got open reach fibre. Makes me laugh that Open reach all of a sudden decide to put fibre in our city when they have some competition, they are interested now.

To be honest if I was going for Fibre then I think I would go for zzoomm, that is once they sorted out all the problems, I have plenty of time, my Plusnet contract don't end until June next year, saying that, with the way this year is flying by, that will not be long Also open reach would have sorted out any problems as well by then,

Another problem is I don't want to go into a 2 year contract, 18 months is long enough, We will see, still got 11 months to make up my mind.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Current pricing I'm offered:

Unlimited Fibre Extra: £24.99 per month, 18 month contract, £70 reward card, voice line included
Full Fibre 74: £24.99 per month, 24 month contract, no reward card, no voice service

So technically you don't need to "pay any more per month" - but they're not going out of their way to make FTTP attractive.

I just checked and I get the same offers here as well

As you say the monthly costs are the same but the overall costs taking into consideration the reward card and the length of contract the FTTC is cheaper than the FTTP

In reply to a post by dect:

As you say the monthly costs are the same but the overall costs taking into consideration the reward card and the length of contract the FTTC is cheaper than the FTTP

I presume that is BT? I would never go back to BT, ever, yeah I know Plusnet is owned by them.

I have just checked on BID and the road works that we were suppose to have for openreach on the 28th august have now been moved to 01/10/2022 - 03/10/2022.
I wonder if they will do something this time.

Edited by zyborg47 (Sun 04-Sep-22 22:17:21)

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

It is not just about price, as I have said before., it is also the hassle of having it installed.

I wouldn't worry too much about that. It's a one-time job, and you just have to be home for a couple of hours while they do it - although I realise that can be difficult to fit in, depending on your job.

The payback is: once you have FTTP your fault rate is likely to be much lower. Therefore, the chances of you having to take a day off work at short notice in future, while they fix your line which has gone dead or crackly, is much lower.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

plusnet says Flexible 24 month contracts, how can a 24 month contract be flexible?

Marketing guff. 24 months is the *maximum* they are allowed on a residential service.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

So how fast is your £24 a month connection?

My FTTC was with Plusnet, and its speed dropped over time. In the end it achieved only about 22M down / 4M up. Now I have FTTP with Cerberus, and it's 300/50 (but it's not £24 a month!)

Regardless of the provider, with FTTP the speed does not depend on distance from the cabinet or exchange or other variables like the weather. So if I'd bought an 80M/20M service, that's what I'd expect to get.

Aside: the fibre link actually runs at a fixed speed of 2.4Gbps down and 1.2Gbps up, shared between up to 32 subscribers. They apply rate limiting to your packets to *reduce* your overall speed to what you've paid for.

The usable throughput also depends on the level of congestion in the provider's backhaul network and interconnections to the Internet, and that may vary at busy times.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Another problem is I don't want to go into a 2 year contract, 18 months is long enough, We will see, still got 11 months to make up my mind.

It used to be that taking a long term contract was a good thing, as it gave you protection against price rises.

Sadly, now it's flipped the other way round; you're committed to paying for a service for 24 months, but at a price which isn't even known at the time you sign - and will very likely rise above the price that new subscribers pay.

It's really just a marketing ploy to make the headline price look lower. You sign the dotted line thinking that you're paying £X, when you're actually paying £X+Y over the full term.

There *are* providers out there with shorter contracts, if that's what matters to you - but you may pay more in the end.

Example: Aquiss will sell you 80/20 FTTP on a 12 month contract, where the first 6 months are reduced to £18, and then after that it's £36. After 18 months it's still cheaper. By the time you've had it for 20 months, you've paid about the same as the full 2 years on Plusnet - although that depends on how much the Plusnet mid-contract price rises are.

(Note that Aquiss don't provide you with a router. They also don't provide you with a voice service, but neither do Plusnet on FTTP).

In reply to a post by candlerb:

My FTTC was with Plusnet, and its speed dropped over time. In the end it achieved only about 22M down / 4M up. Now I have FTTP with Cerberus, and it's 300/50 (but it's not £24 a month!)

I was Plusnet, started 50/10 and when I left it was 40/2. If I could have ordered FTTP-on-Demand I probably would have at least got a quote, but not available in flats. So I ended up with unreliable Virgin Media. I will jump to real FTTP as soon as it is is available, either Openreach or an alt-net.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I wouldn't worry too much about that. It's a one-time job, and you just have to be home for a couple of hours while they do it - although I realise that can be difficult to fit in, depending on your job.

Maybe, but still hassle, with people in here.

The payback is: once you have FTTP your fault rate is likely to be much lower. Therefore, the chances of you having to take a day off work at short notice in future, while they fix your line which has gone dead or crackly, is much lower.

But I don't have that problem, not since a few years ago and from what i have read over the last few months about Zzoomm, I think my connection is more reliable than theirs.

Marketing guff. 24 months is the *maximum* they are allowed on a residential service.

24 months is a long time, that is the problem.

My FTTC was with Plusnet, and its speed dropped over time. In the end it achieved only about 22M down / 4M up. Now I have FTTP with Cerberus, and it's 300/50 (but it's not £24 a month!)

I get around 37 Mb/s, sometimes more, I have not had any real speed problems over the years, maybe when things get congested, but that can happen on FTTH.
But i was on about speed on a £24 FTTP connection.

i don't need high speed and that is all the adverts say, super-duper high speed, which don't sell FTTH to me as I don't require this super-duper high speed.

Regardless of the provider, with FTTP the speed does not depend on distance from the cabinet or exchange or other variables like the weather. So if I'd bought an 80M/20M service, that's what I'd expect to get.

Believe it or not, I do know how FTTP work.

Aside: the fibre link actually runs at a fixed speed of 2.4Gbps down and 1.2Gbps up, shared between up to 32 subscribers. They apply rate limiting to your packets to *reduce* your overall speed to what you've paid for.

The usable throughput also depends on the level of congestion in the provider's backhaul network and interconnections to the Internet, and that may vary at busy times.

As i said above, congestion can happen on FTTH and FTTP.

It used to be that taking a long term contract was a good thing, as it gave you protection against price rises.

Sadly, now it's flipped the other way round; you're committed to paying for a service for 24 months, but at a price which isn't even known at the time you sign - and will very likely rise above the price that new subscribers pay.

It's really just a marketing ploy to make the headline price look lower. You sign the dotted line thinking that you're paying £X, when you're actually paying £X+Y over the full term.

This is the problem, my broadband increase in price every year, I know everything increase in price, certainly at the moment, but to increase it in the middle of a contract is wrong and should be stopped.

There *are* providers out there with shorter contracts, if that's what matters to you - but you may pay more in the end.

Example: Aquiss will sell you 80/20 FTTP on a 12 month contract, where the first 6 months are reduced to £18, and then after that it's £36. After 18 months it's still cheaper. By the time you've had it for 20 months, you've paid about the same as the full 2 years on Plusnet - although that depends on how much the Plusnet mid-contract price rises are.

I have seen some that have short contracts, but yes the prices are higher.
To be honest it is getting to the stage of me wondering why I have broadband, just more money to pay out, the problem now is that almost everything I do these days require some sort of internet connection, be it streaming video, music, reading as I need the net to download my books, but in theory I could tether my e-reader to my phone as the data is only small. then all the smart home devices.

(Note that Aquiss don't provide you with a router. They also don't provide you with a voice service, but neither do Plusnet on FTTP).

a router is not problem, they are cheap enough to be honest for a basic one. I could always use my old Tp-link if i needed to, it works fine, just the wi-fi is old, but it makes little difference to me as i have very little here that uses 5ghz anyway.

As I above, I have 11 months to make up my mind, what to do, either stay on FTTC, which is what I am likely to do, go to Zzoomm or if openreach FTTP is up here by then, which it should be, go with plusnet FTTP.

Even if Openreach do get FTTP up and running here before my contract have ended, I am not going to do anything until my contract ended. It is not 11 months now, it is 10 months.
As for voice, not bothered, i have a VoIP.

I'm sure by the time your existing contract comes to an end and if Zzoom and/or Openreach FTTP is available in your street you will have made a decision one way or the other.

Looking forward to what you decide to do, if anyone is running a book put me down for £10 on Plusnet FTTP

The alt net digging the other side of town have one price. £25/m for 900/900 FTTP. For 18 months and then £29 a month.

In reply to a post by dect:

I'm sure by the time your existing contract comes to an end and if Zzoom and/or Openreach FTTP is available in your street you will have made a decision one way or the other.

Looking forward to what you decide to do, if anyone is running a book put me down for £10 on Plusnet FTTP

If I go for FTTP, you may be right, they do offer cheaper prices than Zzoomm, but I can't see myself moving to be honest.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

The alt net digging the other side of town have one price. £25/m for 900/900 FTTP. For 18 months and then £29 a month.

Zzoomm has 4

150Mb//s for £33, 450Mb/s for £44, 900Mb/s for £66 and 2000Mb/s for £99.
These speeds are the same up and down.

I wonder how many households will go for the 2000Mb/s, if it is a large family and there are good money going in then yes it may be worth it, but I also wonder how many will do it, just because they can. I realise that, 2000Mb/s is more for businesses.


The loop of fibre on the pole is still there, so I presume they did not touch it yesterday, they don't work on the weekend, I thought they would or at least Saturday just to get it don, but maybe they are thinking best to leave the weekend, so people have peace from the noise. Been ok here, but then they only dug one small trench and a hole by the pole. Where a friend live, they have been digging for the last 2 weeks.

Looking forward to what you decide to do, if anyone is running a book put me down for £10 on Plusnet FTTP

… and I’ll have a fiver each way on Luddite in the Indecision handicap at 3:30

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Looking forward to what you decide to do, if anyone is running a book put me down for £10 on Plusnet FTTP

… and I’ll have a fiver each way on Luddite in the Indecision handicap at 3:30

That genuinely made me laugh.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Looking forward to what you decide to do, if anyone is running a book put me down for £10 on Plusnet FTTP

… and I’ll have a fiver each way on Luddite in the Indecision handicap at 3:30

That genuinely made me laugh.

You’re welcome.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

You’re welcome.

A little entertainment in this thread. A telecomms company doing streetworks and them being deferred: unprecedented.

(Tagged to last post)

I know many of us have spent large amounts of money to get Openreach FTTP infrastructure to our front doors but a question I keep asking myself is, would people pay the same sort of money for an altnet to do the same?

In reply to a post by dect:

I know many of us have spent large amounts of money to get Openreach FTTP infrastructure to our front doors but a question I keep asking myself is, would people pay the same sort of money for an altnet to do the same?

I might if the altnet was a neutral ISP provider, e.g. Cityfibre. Unlikely for a single ISP network. (e.g. Virgin Media, Toob etc).

Businesses do pay ECCs to various leased line providers other than Openreach.

But for a residential service from an Altnet with no choice of ISP? I wouldn't.

For some reason it seems mentally easier for me to justify paying for Openreach infrastructure than it does for an altnet. I think a good point has been made by both you and @candlerb that once you have paid your money you would be locked into a single provider and that would be a showstopper for a lot of people. I think we have all grown older with Openreach (including its previous names) being a constant, so it seems less risky.

You'd rather gift money to a multibillion pound corporation than a local altnet? I'm the other way around - especially in the case of BT Group plc

The "local altnets" are mostly owned or bankrolled by large infrastructure investment funds. That's where the profits, if any, will end up.

I'm now in that position, but the differential cost was massive. Trooli are doing our village and they've just dug up my front garden / driveway to install new ducting to get to the pavement. Our telephone lines are underground and look to be directly buried / there's no existing ducting to re-use. That will be true for almost everyone in my street I think. Cost to me, £780. Yes, that's not for the average consumer I suppose. I just don't see Openreach doing new ducting for everyone on the street anytime soon? Previously I paid £250 just for a survey for FTTPoD. That quote was £11k or something (but will have included all the associated works from the node).

At that reasonable level I'd certainly consider it. If you spread that over a 2 year contract it's an extra £32.50 per month, and if the service isn't great, you could write it off. It's an order of magnitude cheaper than FTTPoD.

When Openreach eventually come around to do FTTP, they could decide to install poles - which may upset some residents!

In reply to a post by hunnymonster:

You'd rather gift money to a multibillion pound corporation than a local altnet? I'm the other way around - especially in the case of BT Group plc

I think you using the word 'gift' sets the theme of your post, those financial backers of some of the altnets are not local to anyone here in the UK.

In reply to a post by Deft:

Trooli are doing our village and they've just dug up my front garden / driveway to install new ducting to get to the pavement. Our telephone lines are underground and look to be directly buried / there's no existing ducting to re-use. That will be true for almost everyone in my street I think. Cost to me, £780. Yes, that's not for the average consumer I suppose. I just don't see Openreach doing new ducting for everyone on the street anytime soon?

Hi, just trying to understand your scenario, so you are getting Trooli installed, are you doing this as a collective with all your neighbours and each are paying £780 towards the over cost of getting it to your village or is the £780 purely for digging up your front garden?

Just my front garden. Trooli swallow a bit of the total front garden dig cost too. Looks like they've done all the other fibre stuff around our high street and some side roads. Our village is a weird mix of telephone polls and underground, mostly because there are newer roads from the 60s which seem to have been done underground. I'm in a semi-detached so I guess my neighbour could re-use my ducting for free. I didn't speak to them about it but I'll let them know once it's all running.

In reply to a post by Deft:

Just my front garden. Trooli swallow a bit of the total front garden dig cost too. Looks like they've done all the other fibre stuff around our high street and some side roads. Our village is a weird mix of telephone polls and underground, mostly because there are newer roads from the 60s which seem to have been done underground. I'm in a semi-detached so I guess my neighbour could re-use my ducting for free. I didn't speak to them about it but I'll let them know once it's all running.

Thanks so much for your reply, I think when Openreach get round to doing your property they will leave a Toby box at your boundary, should at any point someone in your property order FTTP they will arrange for civils to come around and get some form of ducting between the Toby box and your property front wall at no cost to you unless you have an extremely large driveway.

Edited by deleted (Fri 09-Sep-22 16:13:00)

Yeah it'll be interesting to see how it pans out. I just can't imagine they'll be bothered to duct 20-30 front gardens of varying aggravation. I also guess most people aren't so bothered about FTTP that orders will be flooding in on principal, even in 2025-2026, but I could be wrong.

In reply to a post by hunnymonster:

You'd rather gift money to a multibillion pound corporation than a local altnet? I'm the other way around - especially in the case of BT Group plc

I'm with Virgin Media at the moment and I have no choice of service over the connection, its the VM ISP or disconnect. I would gladly pay for a higher level of quality service, but there is no option on this infrastructure. (The openreach FTTC slowed down due to crosstalk where upload was too slow for my usage).

In reply to a post by candlerb:

When Openreach eventually come around to do FTTP, they could decide to install poles - which may upset some residents!

Toob seem to be paying Openreach to install poles across town where there is no ducting. Some residents are happy (high speed), others are very annoyed.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Looking forward to what you decide to do, if anyone is running a book put me down for £10 on Plusnet FTTP

… and I’ll have a fiver each way on Luddite in the Indecision handicap at 3:30

LOL.

I am not a Luddite, if I was a Luddite then would I have a house full of Echo dots, a load of smart devices, including the smart radiator thermostats I just got. If I was Luddite i would not be bothering with streaming, new technology, don't want that, I will just get my TV via the aerial.

With fibre, I just don't see the advantage for me, I used Wireless broadband for a couple of years a few years ago as it was an advantage for me compared to the ADSL I had at the time.

I just don't need anything faster than what I have now.


I noticed yesterday that Zzoomm have taken the loop of fibre off the pole by me, so I presumed they have used it for what ever they are using it for. There have been a van with a cerry picker on parked across the road since yesterday, so either they are coming back today, which is strange since they don't work on Saturdays, or it has broken down, it is surrounded by cones.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

The "local altnets" are mostly owned or bankrolled by large infrastructure investment funds. That's where the profits, if any, will end up.

And if they don't make any profits?

Then their assets get disposed of in a fire sale to an even larger fund-backed company.

No doubt this Alt Net , if going for an overhead method of service will have their own poles and pole errection process to get these poles in place ( it’s extremely unlikely that OR are involved) in my area , Openreach contracted out their own pole installation to contract years ago ( I’ve no idea if it’s a national policy but it may well be ) , so its possible the the Alt Net use the same contract company as OR , but the poles should not be branded as BT or OR ( FWIW I saw a pole that is date stamped as 2021 and it still said ‘BT’ ) , Alt Nets can and do provide their own poles

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

FWIW I saw a pole that is date stamped as 2021 and it still said ‘BT’

Never seen any of theirs that didn't have 'BT' on them (thats not to say there isn't any)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Then their assets get disposed of in a fire sale to an even larger fund-backed company.

Deja Vu....... the 1990's era cable networks eventually all got 'consumed' into either NTL or Telewest, and then even those two merged.

I am not a Luddite, if I was a Luddite then would I have a house full of Echo dots, a load of smart devices, including the smart radiator thermostats I just got. If I was Luddite i would not be bothering with streaming, new technology, don't want that, I will just get my TV via the aerial.

I suspect you misunderstood

“a person opposed to new technology or ways of working.”

I misread it first time too, but I think the rhetorical question "would I ..?" implies the answer "no". That is, I think the meaning is:

"if I was a Luddite then I would not have a house full of Echo dots ... [but I do]"

Edited by candlerb (Sat 10-Sep-22 11:34:00)

But for a poster so clearly obsessed with not leaking his data, and the like, the last thing you’d have in your abode is Echo Dots and smart devices happily listening to your every word, and noting your internet habits.

I’m sure we’ll not get the truth now, you’ve supplied him with an easy escape route 😄

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Then their assets get disposed of in a fire sale to an even larger fund-backed company.

Or get sold to TalkTalk, saying that Talk Talk has it own financial problems at the moment

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I suspect you misunderstood

“a person opposed to new technology or ways of working.”

Luddites were a group of people who smashed up new looms that would have replaced them, or a person that don't like new technology as it is used for now.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

But for a poster so clearly obsessed with not leaking his data, and the like, the last thing you’d have in your abode is Echo Dots and smart devices happily listening to your every word, and noting your internet habits.

I’m sure we’ll not get the truth now, you’ve supplied him with an easy escape route 😄

I was against smart speakers once, never wanted one, never trusted them, a mate lent me one once and i never even took it out of the bag he put it in.
Echo dots like other smart speakers normally only listens for the wake word, sometimes it misunderstands, also I am the only one here, so unless i start talking to myself it is not going to hear much.

i do draw the line at getting something like the Echo show that has a camera.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Echo dots like other smart speakers normally only listens for the wake word . . .

For someone supposedly as savvy as you about the ways that those [censored] in big business are set up to tear your innards out, I'm surprised that you don't see the dangers in assuming that any of the "smart" devices only steal your data after the "wake" word.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I suspect you misunderstood

“a person opposed to new technology or ways of working.”

Luddites were a group of people who smashed up new looms that would have replaced them, or a person that don't like new technology as it is used for now.

Yes. Hence my original joke.

Like the old proverb says ‘ He who laughs last, didn’t get the joke in the first place.’

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Echo dots like other smart speakers normally only listens for the wake word . . .

For someone supposedly as savvy as you about the ways that those [censored] in big business are set up to tear your innards out, I'm surprised that you don't see the dangers in assuming that any of the "smart" devices only steal your data after the "wake" word.

There is not enough storage on the units to store much, I know someone who reversed engineered an Echo unit, including the code, and it will not send any speech data until after the wake word. Even if it does as I said, I live here by myself, so they will catch me signing to my music or talking to my cat.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I noticed yesterday that Zzoomm have taken the loop of fibre off the pole by me, so I presumed they have used it for what ever they are using it for. There have been a van with a cerry picker on parked across the road since yesterday, so either they are coming back today, which is strange since they don't work on Saturdays, or it has broken down, it is surrounded by cones.

Did they come back?

+1

Sadly, you reveal too much of your personal life/views on here which often conflict with choices you have made, this then gives others the opportunity of having a joke or dig at your expense.

In reply to a post by dect:

Did they come back?

Nope, it is still parked outside, it has the stabilisers down, I noticed this morning. So I presume it is broken down, i doubt very much if they would leave it otherwise.

In reply to a post by Deft:

I'm now in that position, but the differential cost was massive. Trooli are doing our village and they've just dug up my front garden / driveway to install new ducting to get to the pavement. Our telephone lines are underground and look to be directly buried / there's no existing ducting to re-use. That will be true for almost everyone in my street I think. Cost to me, £780. Yes, that's not for the average consumer I suppose. I just don't see Openreach doing new ducting for everyone on the street anytime soon? Previously I paid £250 just for a survey for FTTPoD. That quote was £11k or something (but will have included all the associated works from the node).

Thats quite interesting as our whole road is direct buried with no ducts from the pavements to the houses and yet Trooli are quoting £130 to install.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Nope, it is still parked outside, it has the stabilisers down, I noticed this morning. So I presume it is broken down, i doubt very much if they would leave it otherwise.

Does sound like it.

In reply to a post by Alucidnation:

In reply to a post by Deft:

Trooli are doing our village and they've just dug up my front garden / driveway to install new ducting to get to the pavement. Our telephone lines are underground and look to be directly buried / there's no existing ducting to re-use. That will be true for almost everyone in my street I think. Cost to me, £780.

Thats quite interesting as our whole road is direct buried with no ducts from the pavements to the houses and yet Trooli are quoting £130 to install.

Wow, big difference between you paying £130 and Deft paying £780, I wonder how the two jobs differ to justify that.

There must be some unseen (by the poster) issue. I suspect hugely inflated prices are offered when they ‘don’t fancy the job’.

I met someone this week who had been quoted 18k to get service via Trooli … and yet they have a CBT in the footway across the street , where the current copper DP is, so a road crossing (30mph residential Rd, light traffic) then about 40m of duct through a pavement. ……… don’t seem right to me.





edit for addition of missed word

Edited by Zarjaz (Sun 11-Sep-22 20:10:48)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

There must be some unseen (by the poster) issue. I suspect hugely prices are offered when they ‘don’t fancy the job’.

I met someone this week who had been quoted 18k to get service via Trooli … and yet they have a CBT in the footway across the street, where the current copper DP is, so a road crossing (30mph residential Rd, light traffic) then about 40m of duct through a pavement. ……… don’t seem right to me.

Until this thread I hadn't realised that some altnet's charge this sort of money for the final part of the installation when the service has already been provided to the street outside a property. People raise their eye's about FTTPod costs but I am more surprised about this.

It makes total sense though. Whether its Openreach or AltNet, they will have a budget per premises for connection. If the cost to connect is seriously above that threshold they either will walk away or propose ECCs to the customer.

Edit:
Have a read of this article...

Openreach and the Case of a Tricky FTTP Transition Problem

"How big is this issue? The need for ECCs like this is rare (i.e. homes or businesses that cost over £1,000 to install). Openreach indicated to us that the figure could equate to under 1% of their total full fibre footprint, which is still a lot of properties. If we simply assume the figure to be 1%, then that would be up to 72,000 premises out of their current 7.2 million premises coverage, or up to 250,000 premises once they hit 25 million."

Edited by Pheasant (Sun 11-Sep-22 18:18:55)

Interesting article, I did have to laugh at the comments as Buggs8 was there under the pseudonym 'Simon'

"Phil" is there too 😂

Edit: actually there's quite a few regulars from here commenting over there 😀

Edited by Pheasant (Sun 11-Sep-22 22:53:58)

That seems a good deal. I'd heard other quotes of about £600 from a colleague at work, though not sure of the details.
It took two guys about 4 hours of hard graft in the baking sun to do my ducting, so feels reasonable enough to me. No doubt Openreach will rock up next week and dig everyone's gardens up for free....!

No crystal ball so better for you to have Trooli now than wait for another provider sometime maybe in the future

Edited by deleted (Mon 12-Sep-22 13:35:37)

Yeah, I'm also looking forward to ditching my landline, which I haven't even had a phone plugged into for 5 years.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

i do draw the line at getting something like the Echo show that has a camera.

The Echo Show's have a manually operated shutter over the camera lens so it's a bit of a non-issue really.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

FWIW I saw a pole that is date stamped as 2021 and it still said ‘BT’

Never seen any of theirs that didn't have 'BT' on them (thats not to say there isn't any)

Isn't this because BT own the network assets, Openreach just manage it?

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Nope, it is still parked outside, it has the stabilisers down, I noticed this morning. So I presume it is broken down, i doubt very much if they would leave it otherwise.

Does sound like it.

Still there, but the arm have been lowered and the stabalisers have been lifted.

In reply to a post by Deft:

That seems a good deal. I'd heard other quotes of about £600 from a colleague at work, though not sure of the details.
It took two guys about 4 hours of hard graft in the baking sun to do my ducting, so feels reasonable enough to me. No doubt Openreach will rock up next week and dig everyone's gardens up for free....!

Zzoomm is doing installation for free, I suppose they have to as many people would not pay for an installation charge. I must cost Zzoomm a fair bit at some places. Here they are going via poles, so it will not cost so much. with Openreach coming as well, they will do free installations as well., when they get here.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

with Openreach coming as well, they will do free installations as well., when they get here.

To be pedantic, Openreach don't do free installations. They charge £103.32+VAT for a standard FTTP install.

This is paid by the ISP, but they usually don't pass it on to their customers; they hide it in the monthly rental over the contract period. aa.net.uk is an example of one that *does* pass on these charges.

Many ISPs also supply a router and hide the cost in the same way.

Of course, this means the price you pay ought to go *down* at the end of the initial contract period, but most ISPs make it go up - to force you to sign a new contract.

Sounds like the hydraulics failed, or maybe the PTO jammed.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Sounds like the hydraulics failed, or maybe the PTO jammed.

And there was me thinking they was waiting for Adrian to order 😎

And there was me thinking they was waiting for Adrian to order

You can imagine all the providers meeting in darkened rooms to see who pulls that very shortest of straws ….

“OK, but if we have to have him, you have to take on Keef from Sheerness, and sniggering Jack in the corner there, you HAVE to roll out to ALL of Cuckoo Oak exchange. “

Edited by Zarjaz (Tue 13-Sep-22 11:58:37)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

You can imagine all the providers meeting in darkened rooms to see who pulls that very shortest of straws ….

“OK, but if we have to have him, you have to take on Keef from Sheerness, and sniggering Jack in the corner there, you HAVE to roll out to ALL of Cuckoo Oak exchange. “

I heard a rumour that one of the reasons for the recent strikes is that Openreach wont pay enough danger money for engineers to go to Cuckoo Oak.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

To be pedantic, Openreach don't do free installations. They charge £103.32+VAT for a standard FTTP install.

This is paid by the ISP, but they usually don't pass it on to their customers; they hide it in the monthly rental over the contract period. aa.net.uk is an example of one that *does* pass on these charges.

Many ISPs also supply a router and hide the cost in the same way.

Of course, this means the price you pay ought to go *down* at the end of the initial contract period, but most ISPs make it go up - to force you to sign a new contract.

Well yeah I always presumed that OR charged the providers, which is strange since OR want us to go onto FTTP, what advantage is it for providers if they have to pay OR?

I also presumed that we pay for the router as well in some way, they are not going to give it away for nothing.

Prices go up in the contract these days, which I think is wrong, after all we signed a contract for that price, and it should stay that price.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Sounds like the hydraulics failed, or maybe the PTO jammed.

It has gone now, they came about an hour ago to collect it, so I presume they had someone out to fix it yesterday, but needed a driver for it today

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Sounds like the hydraulics failed, or maybe the PTO jammed.

And there was me thinking they was waiting for Adrian to order 😎

i doubt it, the service is not live up yet.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

You can imagine all the providers meeting in darkened rooms to see who pulls that very shortest of straws ….

“OK, but if we have to have him, you have to take on Keef from Sheerness, and sniggering Jack in the corner there, you HAVE to roll out to ALL of Cuckoo Oak exchange. “

I have you know I am good to people who do work here, I offer them a coffee and then stay out of their way.
When Open reach came a few years ago to try to sort out my FTTC connection, we had a good chat, they explained what was happening or what was not happening as the case was. The second one I had here We chatted about FTTP as she said that the problem I was having would not happen with FTTP, not that she knew what was causing the problem, which is strange. If she did not know what was causing the problem, then how did she know it would not happen with FTTP?

So I am a good host, even if i don't like people in my house.

In reply to a post by simon194:

The Echo Show's have a manually operated shutter over the camera lens so it's a bit of a non-issue really.

Maybe, but so easy to forget to close it, anyway, I have no need for one anyway.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

And there was me thinking they was waiting for Adrian to order

You can imagine all the providers meeting in darkened rooms to see who pulls that very shortest of straws ….

“OK, but if we have to have him, you have to take on Keef from Sheerness, and sniggering Jack in the corner there, you HAVE to roll out to ALL of Cuckoo Oak exchange. “

No use posting that here. You are in an irony-free zone.

No use posting that here. You are in an irony-free zone.

I know, it’s all about fibre on this bit innit.

In reply to a post by jpm:

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

FWIW I saw a pole that is date stamped as 2021 and it still said ‘BT’

Never seen any of theirs that didn't have 'BT' on them (thats not to say there isn't any)

Isn't this because BT own the network assets, Openreach just manage it?

I think that is correct. BT plc retain legal ownership of all the network assets, even when Openreach procure/replace etc the assets automatically belong to the plc.

Its all in here:

https://www.bt.com/bt-plc/assets/documents/about-bt/...

"9.4 Openreach Limited is not permitted to acquire assets and liabilities for its own balance sheet. Where Openreach Limited acquires, sells and otherwise deals with Openreach CFU assets, it shall do so on behalf of BT plc and for the account of BT plc and the necessary actions will be taken to ensure those assets are owned by BT plc."

Edited by Pheasant (Tue 13-Sep-22 18:04:40)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I think that is correct. BT plc retain legal ownership of all the network assets, even when Openreach procure/replace etc the assets automatically belong to the plc.

I read originally Ofcom wanted Openreach to own the physical assets, but then the banks supporting BT plc wanted the Govt to plug a 'hole' in the pension fund, so this middle ground was devised.

Gotcha. Think they’ve gotten over the worst of the pension deficit now…

https://www.pensions-expert.com/DB-Derisking/BT-Pens...

Though it’s probably taken a proper battering the last 6 months!

Good to see, I assume the recovery started with the sale of Cellnet mobile network, and carried on with various investments, looks to have paid off.

Apparently the deficit repair plan they’re executing is secured by an asset-backed funding arrangement against EE. Interesting.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Well yeah I always presumed that OR charged the providers, which is strange since OR want us to go onto FTTP, what advantage is it for providers if they have to pay OR?

As I understand it openreach are offering ISPs a discount if they reach certain targets re switching to FTTP where available. It may also be that the discount is also applied to the migration. Certainly I think openreach are keen to retire the copper network where fibre is deployed

Some providers are indirectly passing the cost on. For example, on Plusnet, 40/10 FTTC and 40/10 FTTP have the same monthly rental. But the FTTP option comes without the £70 cashback, and has a 24 month contract instead of 18.

But sooner or later it won't matter: once an exchange area has reached 75% FTTP coverage and a copper "stop sell" is in operation, any property where FTTP is available will have to take FTTP. They can retain an existing live FTTC service if they have one, but can't modify it in any way, including migrating to another provider.

Certainly I think openreach are keen to retire the copper network where fibre is deployed

Exactly, the profits will be easier produced with less spent on maintaining a creaking copper network. The shift to an IP based voice service will save them money too. All at a time when the Altnets are nipping at their heels, and cherry picking where they roll out.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Apparently the deficit repair plan they’re executing is secured by an asset-backed funding arrangement against EE. Interesting.

If only BT hadn't taken all those pension contribution holidays in the 1990's when staff were paying their contributions BT were nowhere to be seen.

In reply to a post by dect:

If only BT hadn't taken all those pension contribution holidays in the 1990's when staff were paying their contributions BT were nowhere to be seen.

Unclear if a certain Mr Brown was involved...

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Unclear if a certain Mr Brown was involved...

Political rabbit holes 😎

BT pension holiday was 89-93.

Removing the UK network from the UK's 'flag carrier' was something that BT's owners would not agree to and would probably still be going through the courts now. So as with many things we ended up with a compromise and a deal getting done swiftly.

In my view it is scandalous that workers on what is now the Openreach business make up the vast majority of the pension scheme members. Yet Openreach are not allowed to factor in the deficit costs into their prices.

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

In my view it is scandalous that workers on what is now the Openreach business make up the vast majority of the pension scheme members. Yet Openreach are not allowed to factor in the deficit costs into their prices.

They wouldn't want to. It would only push more business towards altnets, as well as squeezing the profit margin of the BT retail division.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

They wouldn't want to. It would only push more business towards altnets, as well as squeezing the profit margin of the BT retail division.

I agree, the pension issue is of BT Group's (that includes Openreach) own making so BT Group and its shareholders should be sorting the issue by reduced profit and dividends.

In reply to a post by mwarby:

As I understand it openreach are offering ISPs a discount if they reach certain targets re switching to FTTP where available. It may also be that the discount is also applied to the migration. Certainly I think openreach are keen to retire the copper network where fibre is deployed

What Open reach want and what they get are two different things, they need to make it worthwhile for people like myself to change and even if FTTP was available to me there is no incentive to change. Saying it is faster or more reliable is not going to get some people to change.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Saying it is faster or more reliable is not going to get some people to change.

May be for the less savvy it might not.

I do wonder why people who continually come to this forum are not interested in ways to improve their broadband experience (be it via full fibre via an altnet or via a CP who uses Openreach infrastructure).

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Saying it is faster or more reliable is not going to get some people to change.

Reliability will sell to me, and my friends and family. Fed up with copper based issues on OR or VM networks, especially when trying to work from home.

I do wonder why people who continually come to this forum are not interested in ways to improve their broadband experience (be it via full fibre via an altnet or via a CP who uses Openreach infrastructure).

I refer readers to this recent post and the OP’s reply to it.

In reply to a post by dect:

I do wonder why people who continually come to this forum are not interested in ways to improve their broadband experience (be it via full fibre via an altnet or via a CP who uses Openreach infrastructure).

I find the forum interesting and some of the posts are interesting, in other words, you don't like it when people don't agree with you.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Reliability will sell to me, and my friends and family. Fed up with copper based issues on OR or VM networks, especially when trying to work from home.

if you have rubbish broadband i can understand, but the majority of people I know don't. a neighbour said last year when we first heard about Zzoomm coming up here that it would be good as her broadband is rubbish. How can it be rubbish? She is on the same cabinet as me, in fact she is slightly closer. The only way it can be rubbish is if there is a problem with the infrastructure and if so get in touch with her ISP, if they are using Wi-fi for everything and their router is rubbish or they think it is rubbish and it is not really the case.

Two people live in that house, so even if they had the same speed as I have, they can both watch 4K video on two different devices and have room to spare.

Unless you have rubbish copper cables and live a long way from the cabinet then FTTC is normally pretty reliable and I did have a problem for a while, but these things happen.

I am not saying people should not go to FTTP if that is what they want, just saying that for a lot of people there is no incentive, unless they do have reliability problems.
All the advertising from Zzoomm is about speed and if you look at any other adverts for FTTP from any provider it is about speed, some may say about reliability, but not many.
sorry but again, no incentive. I know plenty of people who are not interested in changing, a couple said they will wait until next year to see if the bugs have been removed and then decide.


My sister-in-law and brother who has ZZoomm available to them and I think also Openreach now are not in any rush to move and yet I think it would be to their advantage to move.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by dect:

I do wonder why people who continually come to this forum are not interested in ways to improve their broadband experience (be it via full fibre via an altnet or via a CP who uses Openreach infrastructure).

I find the forum interesting and some of the posts are interesting, in other words, you don't like it when people don't agree with you.

Thanks Adrian for letting me know.

Edit: Just to add I would be extremely concerned if you did agree with me as I have observed many worrying posts over the last few years

Edited by deleted (Wed 14-Sep-22 22:25:00)

In reply to a post by dect:

[
[/quote]Thanks Adrian for letting me know.

Edit: Just to add I would be extremely concerned if you did agree with me as I have observed many worrying posts over the last few years

Worrying posts from yourself


I am interested in the technology, and to be honest I don't care how my broadband gets to me, If FTTP was available at a decent price when I changed from wireless to FTTC then I would have gone for it. I would not have changed from ADSL to Wireless broadband if ADSL did what I wanted, the same as from wireless to FTTC, while it started off good, they could not cope with the demand and it made sense to go to FTTC at the time, then the provider who did the wireless broadband decided to give it up a few months after anyway. But fair play to them for trying something when none of the big knobs in the city did not give a monkey and when they did, they gave taxpayers money to a large company, that would be open reach and the so called fastershire, that did nothing, nothing what soever for the city.

Now once again it is another independent company that have come in to put fibre in the city, but now they have got going, Out of reach wants a bit of the action, i am surprised they even know where Hereford is.

If i did go for FTTP, I think it would be Zzoomm, but as I have said before, the cost is a bit more than what I want to pay for broadband, certainly at the moment with the way the cost of living is going up

a neighbour said last year when we first heard about Zzoomm coming up here that it would be good as her broadband is rubbish. How can it be rubbish? She is on the same cabinet as me, in fact she is slightly closer.

Even if their cables are bad or have bad joints OpenReach won't do anything about it unless it is below the speed threshold. And that threshold is set based on the line condition. So they could have a speed half of yours and as long as that is what they were told they would get then the ISP can't get OpenReach to do anything to make it better. Neighbours can have very different line speeds.

I went to FTTP as soon as it became available. We were getting about 30Mbps down and I think about 6Mbps up. The upstream was bad. The downstream wasn't great for our needs. FTTP avoids lots of issues with degrading copper lines. For us FTTP was a no-brainer.

But, as has been said before if FTTC does what you need and you don't have any problems then nobody should be saying you must move away from it - but many people may choose to just for the peace of mind of removing the potentially inconsistent nature of copper.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Worrying posts from yourself

May be at times but I was making reference to the fact our opinions are vastly different on virtually every matter. Take Covid and vaccination for one, I believe it exists and we should be vaccinated but you say it's a government way of controlling us and no need for any vaccination. I have defended your right to choose when others on this forum have been very unkind to you, so I don't agree that "I don't like it when people don't agree with me". You have been listening and believing other's comments about me who clearly have their own agenda.

In reply to a post by ian72:

Even if their cables are bad or have bad joints OpenReach won't do anything about it unless it is below the speed threshold. And that threshold is set based on the line condition. So they could have a speed half of yours and as long as that is what they were told they would get then the ISP can't get OpenReach to do anything to make it better. Neighbours can have very different line speeds.

I went to FTTP as soon as it became available. We were getting about 30Mbps down and I think about 6Mbps up. The upstream was bad. The downstream wasn't great for our needs. FTTP avoids lots of issues with degrading copper lines. For us FTTP was a no-brainer.

But, as has been said before if FTTC does what you need and you don't have any problems then nobody should be saying you must move away from it - but many people may choose to just for the peace of mind of removing the potentially inconsistent nature of copper.

I realise that there can be bad joints, but I doubt that is the problem, but I could be wrong.
My next door neighbour had BT broadband and their speed was about 24Mb's, even the router gave the speed as around 29Mb/s, Bloated Toad was not interested. Now a few months ago they went to sky and now they get the same speed as me, very strange.

i must admit upload is not great, I get around 9Mb/s if that, but for the amount I upload at the moment I am not that bothered, but it does make things a little slow if I access the NAS from a different location.

No one is saying I must move away from FTTC at the moment, but how long is that going to last? Talk Talk are already pushing people to FTTP.

In reply to a post by dect:

May be at times but I was making reference to the fact our opinions are vastly different on virtually every matter. Take Covid and vaccination for one, I believe it exists and we should be vaccinated but you say it's a government way of controlling us and no need for any vaccination. I have defended your right to choose when others on this forum have been very unkind to you, so I don't agree that "I don't like it when people don't agree with me". You have been listening and believing other's comments about me who clearly have their own agenda.


I believe covid exists, I don't think it was as bad as we were led to believe, and I think the government reaction was more to do with control of the population, scare them and they will do what you want. It seems strange that one thing is after another, Brexit, Co-vid, the war in Ukraine, monkeypox oh and the energy crises.
I said I will not have the vaccination as I think and still think it was produced too quickly or they had it already and have been lying to use about Co-vid.
I work in supermarket, I have had no vaccine and yet I am fine and yet some people I have been working with say they had co-vid. Some of the tests were wrong and had problems.

anyway.

Adrian you have left a /quote in square brackets in your post just before "May be at times"

Well I've now joined the future. Trooli 300/100 successfully running as of today.

In reply to a post by Deft:

Well I've now joined the future. Trooli 300/100 successfully running as of today.

Fantastic

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

. . . I don't think it was as bad as we were led to believe, and I think the government reaction was more to do with control of the population, scare them and they will do what you want. It seems strange that one thing is after another, Brexit, Co-vid, the war in Ukraine, monkeypox oh and the energy crises.

The trouble is that things like a Covid vaccination programme are built on statistics and statistics are an area where most of the population do not understand what is being discussed. Even at the height of the Covid pandemic the proportion of people who caught Covid and were then seriously affected was small over the population as a whole. However, for people in the vulnerable groups (elderly, suffering from other medical conditions etc.) the impact was a lot more significant. Pre-vaccination, IIRC the death rate of those who contracted Covid and were in one of the vulnerable groups was~10%. When you consider the number of people who are in those groups, you would have seen hundreds of thousands of deaths without lockdowns and then vaccination. Just because you (generically rather than aimed at you personally) did not see any major problems it does not detract from the fact that you could have contracted Covid (many who have had contracted it showed minimal or no symptoms) because you believe that vaccination is a control policy rather than a public health intervention while completely ignoring the risk that you could have passed on Covid to someone in one of the vulnerable groups ultimately leading to their death. Perhaps you (this time back to the direct question) could explain why you think from a standpoint that seems to be bereft of any supporting data that the government were using vaccination as a control programme rather than a public health intervention. Just because you did not see anyone suffer or suffer yourself from any adverse effects, that is because you were in the greater part of the population where the statistics predicted that would happen. Whether you consider that potentially passing on the infection so that someone else is killed is something to do with a freedom-destroying government and not your conscience is only a matter you will know.

Perhaps people of your generation and younger have forgotten the benefits that vaccinations have brought. I had a sister who died from diphtheria (now eliminated through vaccination). I had a school-friend who has had a lifelong weakness in one leg due to polio (previously all but eliminated by vaccination but now reappearing due to anti-vaccination fanatics to the extent that New York has declared a state of emergency), my grandfather spent several months in a sanatorium and was not expected to survive due to tuberculosis (previously all but eliminated but now reappearing due to anti-vaccination fanatics) and we are now seeing deaths due to measles in the UK when there were none in the mid-2010s due to the anti-vaccination fanatics taking their lead from the discredited charlatan "Doctor" Andrew Wakefield.

In cases like this, it is not a matter of opinions, it is a matter of statistical fact; while you are not willing to accept statistical evidence then your opinions don't have any place in serious debate. To close, do you personally know anyone who has won the National Lottery Jackpot? If you do not, then by your reasoning the Jackpot does not exist, it is merely a fiction invented by the Government to get you to buy lottery tickets.

Edited by GonePostal (Thu 15-Sep-22 21:12:20)

In reply to a post by Deft:

Well I've now joined the future. Trooli 300/100 successfully running as of today.

Well done, not that it is the future as it is happening now, but good on you.

This is not really the place for this.

But just to say, i have no problems with vaccinations, i had some when I was at school, even if the headmaster had to get my mother in to get me to have them as i hate injections. I just think the covid vaccine was done too quick and have not been fully tested, or it have been available for longer than we were told and the whole Co-vid being a new virus was a lie. People die from flu and have been for years, and even that vaccine they can't get right most of the time because the flu virus mutate., No doubt i will get the same text as I got last year about getting a flue and covid vaccine due to my low immune system,


i know of someone who won the lottery jackpot, not personally as such, but he was a local lad that other people knew that I know.
I don't do the lottery, so makes no odds to me, but I think if it was not real, a lot of people would know and there would be hell to play. There may be hell to play anyway, when some people realise who is taking it over next year,.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

This is not really the place for this.

I just think the covid vaccine was done too quick and have not been fully tested, or it have been available for longer than we were told and the whole Co-vid being a new virus was a lie. People die from flu and have been for years, and even that vaccine they can't get right most of the time because the flu virus mutate., No doubt i will get the same text as I got last year about getting a flue and covid vaccine due to my low immune system,

So can you lay out why you think it better that thousands of people should be put at risk of death due to your personal prejudices than that the population should be protected by vaccines which have passed every scientific test the other vaccines you accept have passed? It is you and people like you that make it more difficult to attain herd immunity in the population and so put the rest of the world at risk.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

So can you lay out why you think it better that thousands of people should be put at risk of death due to your personal prejudices than that the population should be protected by vaccines which have passed every scientific test the other vaccines you accept have passed? It is you and people like you that make it more difficult to attain herd immunity in the population and so put the rest of the world at risk.

If people want to have the vaccine then that is up to them, I don't push and never have pushed people not to have it. My choice if i want a vaccine,

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

So can you lay out why you think it better that thousands of people should be put at risk of death due to your personal prejudices than that the population should be protected by vaccines which have passed every scientific test the other vaccines you accept have passed? It is you and people like you that make it more difficult to attain herd immunity in the population and so put the rest of the world at risk.

If people want to have the vaccine then that is up to them, I don't push and never have pushed people not to have it. My choice if i want a vaccine,

Yes, your choice but what choice does the rest of society have if you wish to be a walking virus factory infecting everyone within reach? Do you understand the concept of "society"?

Guys, I raised the point to Adrian about covid and vaccinations to disprove his claim about me throwing my toys out of the pram when others disagreed with me, it was never my intent to encourage a whole discussion on covid and vaccinations as that has been well discussed over in 'The Park' and really should remain there.

Edit: replaced the word vacations with vaccinations 😎

Edited by deleted (Fri 16-Sep-22 09:18:13)

It will be available in the future for yourself!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiwA0JrGfjA

In reply to a post by dect:

Guys, I raised the point to Adrian about covid and vaccinations to disprove his claim about me throwing my toys out of the pram when others disagreed with me, it was never my intent to encourage a whole discussion on covid and vaccinations as that has been well discussed over in 'The Park' and really should remain there.

Edit: replaced the word vacations with vaccinations 😎

You're right and apologies. Not the appropriate place so I will desist.

Ignore that, i already posted it

Bad day at work

Edited by zyborg47 (Fri 16-Sep-22 17:12:53)

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Yes, your choice but what choice does the rest of society have if you wish to be a walking virus factory infecting everyone within reach? Do you understand the concept of "society"?

Makes no difference to other people, the vaccines don't stop the virus, they just stop you becoming so ill, so we are told. so even with the vaccine you can still get co-vid and still pass it on. People at work have had the vaccine and they have had co-vid so they say.

In reply to a post by dect:

Guys, I raised the point to Adrian about covid and vaccinations to disprove his claim about me throwing my toys out of the pram when others disagreed with me, it was never my intent to encourage a whole discussion on covid and vaccinations as that has been well discussed over in 'The Park' and really should remain there.

Edit: replaced the word vacations with vaccinations 😎

I said you don't like it when people disagree with you, nothing about you throwing any toys out of the pram.
But i think I have proved the point .

Sometimes i don't like it either, but that is life.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

It will be available in the future for yourself!

sorry, I had to think what you were on about

i see what you mean, but fibre is here and have been for years, so it is not the future, I may use it in the future, but fibre is to be honest old technology, it is just that this country is catching up with the rest of the world, which sounds about right for this country

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I said you don't like it when people disagree with you, nothing about you throwing any toys out of the pram.
But i think I have proved the point

Adrian I am the one here whose first language isn't English and even I know that the two below statements mean virtually the same thing.

> you don't like it when people don't agree with you
> you throw your toys out of the pram when others disagree with you

Have you been on the sauce this afternoon as you're really not making much sense and appear to be argumentative.

Edited by deleted (Fri 16-Sep-22 17:43:26)

In reply to a post by dect:

Adrian I am the one here whose first language isn't English and even I know that the two below statements mean virtually the same thing.

> you don't like it when people don't agree with you
> you throw your toys out of the pram when others disagree with you

Have you been on the sauce this afternoon as you're really not making much sense and appear to be argumentative.

Nope, but I wish I had.
just fed up, fed up with work, this city, this country, being pushed to do things I don't want to do.

Just feeling in one of the moods.