Copper Line Removal?

Had a couple friends recently who had Openreach FTTP installed and in both cases Openreach have completely removed the copper lines regardless of existing VDSL service being in place (In At least one of those cases It was a new order NOT a migration)


Is this always the case for Openreach FTTP, does it make a difference if it's a business vs residential?

This concerns me as at work we sometimes handle the broadband lines for some of our customers and it could be a problem if they do it at a business premise

Edited by dragon2611 (Thu 06-Apr-23 09:54:55)

When I switched to FTTP the Openreach engineer wanted to use the copper to pull the fibre through to the CSP but I had to point out that my work connection was over copper so it had to stay in place.

It's useful having the copper as a backup.

Our line runs from a pole over a busy road to our gable wall. I was worried when only one OR techie arrived to change our FTTC to FTTP. No trouble, he said, and used the copper line to pull the fibre from pole to gable, thence into the house and the box in our study. Said this was normal procedure as the copper would be removed from the pole to the cabinet anyway.

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

Our line runs from a pole over a busy road to our gable wall. I was worried when only one OR techie arrived to change our FTTC to FTTP. No trouble, he said, and used the copper line to pull the fibre from pole to gable, thence into the house and the box in our study. Said this was normal procedure as the copper would be removed from the pole to the cabinet anyway.

So no chance of going back to FTTc if there is a problem with FTTP.

A Openreach engineer I was talking to said that eventually the copper lines to the buildings will be removed, but said nothing about the cable from the pole. No doubt in years to come they will be removed.

Why on earth would you want to go back to FTTC?

I went from talktalk FTTC to future 500 and they let me keep the land line operational for free until I upgraded to fibre 900.



The last month of usage showed we made ;1 land line call so its not missed.

In reply to a post by dragon2611:

Had a couple friends recently who had Openreach FTTP installed and in both cases Openreach have completely removed the copper lines regardless of existing VDSL service being in place (In At least one of those cases It was a new order NOT a migration)

If the VDSL service is live, and it's not a migration, then they can't do this. You should simply report a fault on the VDSL service via your CSP, and they'll have to reinstate the copper. If the CSP is a member of the OFCOM auto-compensation scheme then you should get paid a substantial amount per day for the amount of time it's out of service beyond 2 days.

In reply to a post by dragon2611:

Is this always the case for Openreach FTTP, does it make a difference if it's a business vs residential?

Normally, if the service is fed through an underground duct they'll just pull the fibre alongside it. If it's fed from overhead then they *can* replace the copper drop cable with a "hybrid" cable (fibre + copper), although it will depend on what supplies they have available. Or they could run two cables side by side, if the pole has sufficient loading capacity.

In my experience, they generally leave the copper in case it's required in future - although in the case of a migration and in a copper "stop sell" area, I guess they may not.

However, if you tell them on the day that the copper is live, then they should not disconnect a live service. If that means abandoning the appointment because they can't get the right cable from stores, then they can do that (and you'll also get compensation in that case).

In reply to a post by candlerb:

If the VDSL service is live, and it's not a migration, then they can't do this. You should simply report a fault on the VDSL service via your CSP, and they'll have to reinstate the copper. If the CSP is a member of the OFCOM auto-compensation scheme then you should get paid a substantial amount per day for the amount of time it's out of service beyond 2 days.

Good to know, in this case the intention was always to cease the VDSL service but the FTTP had been ordered as a new provide and the plan would have been to have both running for a short time to make sure everything was stable before ceasing the VDSL

What I'm getting from this is clearly it can happen (because it did) but it Shouldn't happen.

In reply to a post by neo_wales:

Why on earth would you want to go back to FTTC?

Maybe because Fibre has a problem or they may change to a provider that don't do FTTP

I went from talktalk FTTC to future 500 and they let me keep the land line operational for free until I upgraded to fibre 900.

That is nice for you, Not everyone wants or need super duper speed.

The last month of usage showed we made ;1 land line call so its not missed.

I have VoIP anyway, I had it when I went to a wireless broadband network, there is no phone connected to my landline. I don't really use the VoIP that much.

Don't know if this has been answered elsewhere.
This thread has got me wondering, we are all Broadband people but what about people who do not have Internet of any kind, but do have home phone lines using BTs copper service, what will happen to them when BT removes the copper lines

In reply to a post by The_Voyager:

Don't know if this has been answered elsewhere.

Its answered elsewhere, search "PSTN shutdown". the copper line is actually an Openreach line, BT Retail is one of many Communications Providers that use the copper line, as well as others such as Sky and TalkTalk.

Not all areas with get FTTP, some extremely rural areas may have fast internet via radio (5G or other) or satellite, and get to keep any working copper line services.

There has also been no announcement that Openreach are removing copper from the 'last mile' network.

Edited by jchamier (Wed 12-Apr-23 08:17:32)

In reply to a post by The_Voyager:

Don't know if this has been answered elsewhere.
This thread has got me wondering, we are all Broadband people but what about people who do not have Internet of any kind, but do have home phone lines using BTs copper service, what will happen to them when BT removes the copper lines

They will be switched to digital voice, i.e. they will get a router with a phone socket, even if they don't need Internet.

This is already happening, and is actually taking place *before* the removal of copper. People who have copper analogue phone lines will be switched to FTTC or ADSL with digital voice. This process will be *completed* by December 2025, long before all properties have been switched to fibre.

As part of this process, from September 2023 it will be impossible to order a new analogue phone line or renew a contract for an existing one: this is the national "WLR stop-sell" (WLR = wholesale line rental).

This also means an end to the practice of paying for "line rental" with separate "broadband" on top, and being able to buy them from different providers. You will have to make a single order with a single supplier for your service, whether it be Internet only, (digital) voice only, or both.

Sadly, unlike the digital TV switchover, hardly anyone knows this is happening. On top of that, many of those that do get it mixed up with copper removal. Openreach *are* rolling out fibre, but the target is only 80% coverage by end of 2026, and there will be some properties on copper lines for many years after that.

In reply to a post by dragon2611:

Had a couple friends recently who had Openreach FTTP installed and in both cases Openreach have completely removed the copper lines regardless of existing VDSL service being in place (In At least one of those cases It was a new order NOT a migration)

Sounds ominous that the Openreach technician thought this was for BT Retail and that the voice service would move to BT's Digital Voice. Assumptions are dangerous, and for Openreach could be costly as others make clear.

Thanks, will do that search, I still class Openreach as BT, I used to work for them when we were civil servants as GPO International Telecommunications (but only as an operator/supervisor at Wren House next door to Faraday Building) shows how old I am

Thanks for the detailed answer, I'm one of the lucky ones that have Community Fibre in London, only had 3 outages in 3 years, and those down to cables being damaged elsewhere, and find the VOIP service via YayYay quite good.

Maybe BT and the other WLR companies need to start advertising what will be happening

In reply to a post by candlerb:

This also means an end to the practice of paying for "line rental" with separate "broadband" on top, and being able to buy them from different providers. You will have to make a single order with a single supplier for your service, whether it be Internet only, (digital) voice only, or both.

Which reminds me, weren't Ofcom supposed to announce this month the procedure to be able to port out your 'landline' phone number to a Third Party VoIP supplier, without it killing your broadband service ?

In reply to a post by candlerb:

They will be switched to digital voice, i.e. they will get a router with a phone socket, even if they don't need Internet..

Good explanation thank you.

Will customers still be able to use their own routers other than by double NAT?

(Or can the supplied routers with phone sockets be put into bridge mode for the ADSL or VDSL signals? )

Will customers still be able to use their own routers other than by double NAT?

If it's voice only (SOTAP) then no. Not seen any actual equipment but likely to be just a modem with a voice port and no access to the wider internet. iSPs could just use existing routers with a voice port

Edited by witchunt (Wed 12-Apr-23 11:14:37)

In reply to a post by witchunt:

Will customers still be able to use their own routers other than by double NAT?

If it's voice only (SOTAP) then no. Not seen any actual equipment but likely to be just a modem with a voice port and no access to the wider internet.

And if the customer has a VDSL or ADSL service then what?

In reply to a post by candlerb:

This also means an end to the practice of paying for "line rental" with separate "broadband" on top, and being able to buy them from different providers. You will have to make a single order with a single supplier for your service, whether it be Internet only, (digital) voice only, or both.

You posting about line rental reminded me of the letters I get from Zzoomm and also the adverts about Fibre broadband, when they say no paying for line rental, you will save £300 a year by not paying line rental, So you will think you will save £300 a year., but you don't. The price per month will still be the same price or more than what would be paid for FTTC and line rental. So it looks good until you look deeper into it.

I almost went for Zzoomm today, I went right through the ordering, even putting my direct debit details in, but bottled out when I went to pick the day to have it installed. They have a lot of days available.

In reply to a post by The_Voyager:

Thanks, will do that search, I still class Openreach as BT, I used to work for them when we were civil servants as GPO International Telecommunications (but only as an operator/supervisor at Wren House next door to Faraday Building) shows how old I am

Long before the 1984 privatisation then Lots of change since, Ofcom's regulation has forced Openreach to be 'structural separation' from the rest of BT Group, to ensure a level playing field over the 100+ year old network (including the ducts and poles). The future is interesting!

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

Will customers still be able to use their own routers other than by double NAT?

Depends on the router the CP supplies you with. I read the new Plusnet Hub 2 has a bridge mode. Virgin Media's router for example (Hub 3 and later) have phone sockets and modem mode. Using your own router doesn't disable voice services. Other CP/ISPs with less good hardware will cause the double NAT...

Or you forget the idea of a 'landline' which myself and many households have done.

In reply to a post by The_Voyager:

Don't know if this has been answered elsewhere.
This thread has got me wondering, we are all Broadband people but what about people who do not have Internet of any kind, but do have home phone lines using BTs copper service, what will happen to them when BT removes the copper lines

I doubt many people have a landline just for the home phone these days, but those who are, will be provided with a router to plug their phone into. That will carry on using the FTTC system or ADSL. Copper lines will not be removed for these people. By all accounts Copper lines will be with us for years.

My problem with that is no back up and some systems that rely on the phone line may not work. But the only people it will affect is those who have a new phone service or recontract. For a few years, anyway. the problem is, I expect BT is going to make sure they give small contracts for home phones

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

And if the customer has a VDSL or ADSL service then what?

No difference, the analogue landline phone is connected to the router, the router connects to the wall port as before. The internet continues... only the voice service ("PSTN") is changing.

PSTN shutdown is not connected to FTTP rollout.

In reply to a post by The_Voyager:

Don't know if this has been answered elsewhere.
This thread has got me wondering, we are all Broadband people but what about people who do not have Internet of any kind, but do have home phone lines using BTs copper service, what will happen to them when BT removes the copper lines

I presume this is why there’s a 0.5Mbit option available from wholesale.
A very slow data service aimed at voip only lines

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Or you forget the idea of a 'landline' which myself and many households have done.

I like have several VOIP DECT phones that ring as I can find one of them and the don't rely on a poor mobile signal

I actually took redundancy just after BT took over just when the were planning on shutting most of the International exchanges in London and going over to computer type operator stations in Mondial House (the white wedding cake next to Cannon Street Station which was full of asbestos, had great fun as Union H&S rep, it's gone now as well) instead of the old cord boards

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

I like have several VOIP DECT phones that ring as I can find one of them and the don't rely on a poor mobile signal

I use a mobile phone in a room with no external signal in my office... WiFi makes the connection for me.

In reply to a post by broadbandjockey:

Which reminds me, weren't Ofcom supposed to announce this month the procedure to be able to port out your 'landline' phone number to a Third Party VoIP supplier, without it killing your broadband service ?

Not heard of this one, but it would be good if it did happen. I had to wait till I got FTTP installed to transfer my landline to 3rd party VoIP. I complained to Ofcom at the time, and their reply said that they recognised the problem but fell short of actually promising to do anything about it.

Was it part of the one touch switching thing, due to come in 1 April, which has been delayed 'cos lots of ISPs aren't ready?

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I use a mobile phone in a room with no external signal in my office... WiFi makes the connection for me.

that is slightly different lol

In reply to a post by Taras:

that is slightly different lol

Not really, any modern UK mobile service should have a WiFi Calling option to solve the problems of poor signal indoors. The latest building methods and insulation decrease reception indoors significantly. WiFi Calling transparently means the mobile "just works" when on the home internet.

Completely agree …. Wifi calling all the way

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

In reply to a post by broadbandjockey:

Which reminds me, weren't Ofcom supposed to announce this month the procedure to be able to port out your 'landline' phone number to a Third Party VoIP supplier, without it killing your broadband service ?

Not heard of this one, but it would be good if it did happen. I had to wait till I got FTTP installed to transfer my landline to 3rd party VoIP. I complained to Ofcom at the time, and their reply said that they recognised the problem but fell short of actually promising to do anything about it.

Was it part of the one touch switching thing, due to come in 1 April, which has been delayed 'cos lots of ISPs aren't ready?

It may well be a 'sub-set' of that initiative.

Until the net goes down like it did for a friend in Somerset on Wednesday who lives in a small village with poor Mobile coverage, so she was without communication for 19 hours, I was following the Giga.net status online

Conversely I was without a connection on my copper phone line for a week after TT disconnected it, but my FTTP had no problems.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Completely agree …. Wifi calling all the way

This may not be entirely on-topic, but didn't seem worth starting a new thread... wifi calling is available on my iPhone 12 (with Vodafone) but I've never enabled it, not really sure why. Possibly because I understand it even less than the rest of it and don't know the pros and cons

Are there any significant gotchas if I turn it on?

In reply to a post by billford:

Are there any significant gotchas if I turn it on?

If you have good signal everywhere you go, you may not need it. My company phone is Vodafone and I use WiFi Calling in my front room as despite 25 Mbps data speeds, the people I call always complained about voice quality. Turning on WiFi calling solved that.

If you frequently connect to WiFi in places that might be congested (e.g. hotels, conference centres etc) where the mobile network signal is likely to be good, you might find WiFi Calling is a problem. This is why we have the switch!

In reply to a post by The_Voyager:

Until the net goes down like it did for a friend in Somerset on Wednesday who lives in a small village with poor Mobile coverage, so she was without communication for 19 hours, I was following the Giga.net status online

Same problem with power cuts, the internet and the mobile networks both disappear. I'm in a major conurbation and we had 3 hours of nothing back in 2017.

I haven't had any real problems with mobile calls at home, but a usual 2 bars with an occasional 1 bar (indoors or out!) is certainly nothing to get excited about. Sounds like enabling wifi might be a sensible pre-emptive strike, so to speak.

As you say, I can always turn it off again! Thanks.

Yes but more than likely anyone with a PSTN home phoneline over copper would still have had a connection to the world

In reply to a post by The_Voyager:

Yes but more than likely anyone with a PSTN home phoneline over copper would still have had a connection to the world

Agreed, and why there has been a lot of angst around the end-of-life of the PSTN.

(Only because the telephone exchanges had rooms full of batteries!)

Funny you should say that, sitting here with 2 large UPS Batteries protecting my computers and the connection equipment

In reply to a post by The_Voyager:

Funny you should say that, sitting here with 2 large UPS Batteries protecting my computers and the connection equipment

Nice one...! The problem is for many end users is that the internet connection requires powered equipment in the street, either from Openreach, or Virgin Media, or an alternate network provider (CityFibre etc). These items are not well protected from power failure.

Some random mobile masts have backup, but often only so they shut down cleanly, not to run them for any time.

Once I get rpnd to rewiring one ring final, I will have a 6.4kWh battery back up.... enough to run my network, WAPs, laptops &c for around 65-100 hours!

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by The_Voyager:

Funny you should say that, sitting here with 2 large UPS Batteries protecting my computers and the connection equipment

Nice one...! The problem is for many end users is that the internet connection requires powered equipment in the street, either from Openreach, or Virgin Media, or an alternate network provider (CityFibre etc). These items are not well protected from power failure.

Some random mobile masts have backup, but often only so they shut down cleanly, not to run them for any time.

That is why everyone is going to FTTP. Properly implemented FTTP doesn't require powered equipment at street level. Certainly neither Openreach's nor Cityfibre's FTTP service requires power anywhere other than the exchange and both organisations have generator provision in those locations.

Leaving aside players smaller than Cityfibre, it is really only Openreach FTTC and Virgin where power failures leave the service at risk of failure (at least for power failures of less than 24 hours).

Just a wee bit bigger than my pair of Standby (Offline) 0.85 kVA 520 W UPS

I can use mine to power the whole house - lights, TV, network, PCs, chargers, freide/freezers and occasional kettle from aron 20:00 through to 07:00/08:00 teh following morning too. And costs me nothing to run.

I still do need to run one extra cable to link into one specific ring final though.

In reply to a post by Dassa:

That is why everyone is going to FTTP. Properly implemented FTTP doesn't require powered equipment at street level. Certainly neither Openreach's nor Cityfibre's FTTP service requires power anywhere other than the exchange and both organisations have generator provision in those locations.

Openreach are able to - but plenty of other alt-net networks (including Virgin Media, whom can provide Gigabit today) are already using active components in the street. Good to know CityFibre have thought ahead.

Leaving aside players smaller than Cityfibre, it is really only Openreach FTTC and Virgin where power failures leave the service at risk of failure (at least for power failures of less than 24 hours).

Yeah, and in this area its slow Openreach VDSL or Virgin Media, only 100,000 people or so

Only because the telephone exchanges had rooms full of batteries!

….. nah, hoofing great diesel generators innit

That is why everyone is going to FTTP. Properly implemented FTTP doesn't require powered equipment at street level.

but it does require power to the ONT and router attached at the other end.

Go for Bill , nowt to lose

Both, a look behind some of the exchange panel covers will reveal batteries. The ability to call 999 was taken extremely seriously and was fail safed and routined back in the day.

Edited by FibreBubble (Fri 14-Apr-23 21:03:42)

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

Both, a look behind some of the exchange panel covers will reveal batteries. The ability to call 999 was taken extremely seriously and was fail safed and routined back in the day.

Just the same as the 1980s built data centres I've worked in with battery rooms (with heavy separation in case of fire) and standby generators outside.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

That is why everyone is going to FTTP. Properly implemented FTTP doesn't require powered equipment at street level.

but it does require power to the ONT and router attached at the other end.

As one expects with FTTP.

There is a clear regulatory position on that which translates through to some clear requirements on people selling those services.

We can argue as to whether that regulatory position is appropriate but we're heading into a broader societal debate about cost vs. resilience and about whether the costs of resilience should be spread across all customers or only those that need it - that is really a political question and as such doesn't have a right answer.

It also reflects large scale changes in society. Just as police boxes were removed many years ago, payphones are being removed now - many of which have not seen a single call made in 2 years.

It would be interesting to see stats for how many emergency calls are made from landlines versus mobiles, but I'd guess that these days the vast majority are mobiles.

That's not to say that there isn't anyone who relies on their landline for emergency calls. But then it makes sense to target the support to those users (e.g. battery backup) where it's needed.

In reply to a post by Dassa:

There is a clear regulatory position on that which translates through to some clear requirements on people selling those services.

Some of the alt-nets make it clear when you try and purchase they don't offer phone services and are not a network designed for emergency service access.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Dassa:

There is a clear regulatory position on that which translates through to some clear requirements on people selling those services.

Some of the alt-nets make it clear when you try and purchase they don't offer phone services and are not a network designed for emergency service access.

Putting mains backup of premises equipment aside for a moment….

Presumably those AltNets with active equipment (subtended OLTs and the like) have no extended (or indeed intermittent) mains outage capability. I know some like Fibre Heroes claim they can trailer in a diesel set to connect to their cabs for an extended outage, but I’d question if that really is a solid and viable long-term proposition.

Maybe it is if you only ever plan to have a dozen or so street cabinets before you go broke or get bought out. Let’s be frank.

Realistically in this day and age all terrestrial fibre networks should have a decent degree of autonomy from the grid outages. By decent I mean at least a few hours if not days of autonomy.

A lot are just cutting corners and cheaping it out. Are they really operating within the terms of their Ofcom obligations or just building shoddy rubbish infrastructure. I’m fearing a lot are now the latter.

Do the alt nets have any Ofcom requirements over resilience ?

In reply to a post by broadbandjockey:

Which reminds me, weren't Ofcom supposed to announce this month the procedure to be able to port out your 'landline' phone number to a Third Party VoIP supplier, without it killing your broadband service ?

Never heard of that. A quick Google finds nothing on the subject.

The only thing I'm aware of that was due to be implemented was the new migration system that was to work across distinct networks (Openreach to Cityfibre etc).
That's been delayed a while.

According to a friend who works at a small Openreach based ISP that is implementing the new migration system it won't support porting a landline number without ceasing broadband.

Openreach implemented something for this year's ago called renumber and number export. It's up to providers if they want to offer this and most just don't.
It's quite a niche requirement.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

It also reflects large scale changes in society. Just as police boxes were removed many years ago, payphones are being removed now - many of which have not seen a single call made in 2 years.

It would be interesting to see stats for how many emergency calls are made from landlines versus mobiles, but I'd guess that these days the vast majority are mobiles.

That's not to say that there isn't anyone who relies on their landline for emergency calls. But then it makes sense to target the support to those users (e.g. battery backup) where it's needed.

Indeed. Another step change in technology as folks are now increasingly able to send and receive SOS / emergency messaging when outdoors from a regular smartphone using satellite when there is no cell phone coverage.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Do the alt nets have any Ofcom requirements over resilience ?

I'm sure they don't, as they have no obligation to provide *any* kind of service at all. It's left to market forces to weed out the rubbish ones.

I don't think there are any resilience requirements on mainstream providers either, apart from ISPs which sign up to the (voluntary) compensation scheme - in which case it's just a financial obligation, not a technical one. Recent large-scale outages on Virgin and Vodafone are testament to that.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I'm sure they don't, as they have no obligation to provide *any* kind of service at all. It's left to market forces to weed out the rubbish ones.

Thanks, as I suspected.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

(Only because the telephone exchanges had rooms full of batteries!)

Pretty much all of them have generator backup around here - they proved to have insufficient supply of fuel for them durin Arwen but it's the thought that counts.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Do the alt nets have any Ofcom requirements over resilience ?

I believe that, if they provide internet access then, as a minimum, clause A3.2 of the "General Conditions of Entitlement" applies which says:

A3.2 Regulated Providers must take all necessary measures to ensure:
(a) the fullest possible availability of Voice Communications Services and Internet Access Services provided over Public Electronic Communications Networks in the event of catastrophic network breakdown or in cases of force majeure; and
(b) uninterrupted access to Emergency Organisations as part of any Voice Communications Services offered.

That, as written, is a very strong requirement - if the network fails during a power failure then by definition the requirement has not been met. The word "reasonable" doesn't feature in the text so if the network would fail after a three week country wide power failure then they have failed to meet that requirement and are in breach of their license.

I suspect that Ofcom's enforcement approach doesn't match the strength of the regulation however.

In reply to a post by Dassa:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Do the alt nets have any Ofcom requirements over resilience ?

I believe that, if they provide internet access then, as a minimum, clause A3.2 of the "General Conditions of Entitlement" applies which says:

A3.2 Regulated Providers must take all necessary measures to ensure:
(a) the fullest possible availability of Voice Communications Services and Internet Access Services provided over Public Electronic Communications Networks in the event of catastrophic network breakdown or in cases of force majeure; and
(b) uninterrupted access to Emergency Organisations as part of any Voice Communications Services offered.

That, as written, is a very strong requirement - if the network fails during a power failure then by definition the requirement has not been met. The word "reasonable" doesn't feature in the text so if the network would fail after a three week country wide power failure then they have failed to meet that requirement and are in breach of their license.

I suspect that Ofcom's enforcement approach doesn't match the strength of the regulation however.

Is does say "possible". So, in the case of storms making access to charge batteries or fuel, or a long term power outage, they is a get out.

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by Dassa:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Do the alt nets have any Ofcom requirements over resilience ?

I believe that, if they provide internet access then, as a minimum, clause A3.2 of the "General Conditions of Entitlement" applies which says:

A3.2 Regulated Providers must take all necessary measures to ensure:
(a) the fullest possible availability of Voice Communications Services and Internet Access Services provided over Public Electronic Communications Networks in the event of catastrophic network breakdown or in cases of force majeure; and
(b) uninterrupted access to Emergency Organisations as part of any Voice Communications Services offered.

That, as written, is a very strong requirement - if the network fails during a power failure then by definition the requirement has not been met. The word "reasonable" doesn't feature in the text so if the network would fail after a three week country wide power failure then they have failed to meet that requirement and are in breach of their license.

I suspect that Ofcom's enforcement approach doesn't match the strength of the regulation however.

Is does say "possible". So, in the case of storms making access to charge batteries or fuel, or a long term power outage, they is a get out.

I disagree. It is possible for someone to run their own power network, it is possible to keep a years supply of diesel in tanks, it is possible to have a stock of 10,000 generators and the personnel to deliver them to where they are needed sat around drinking tea waiting for a major power failure.

Your post illustrates the problem with the requirement, I am taking it as its English meaning, you are taking it as its practical meaning (for some definition of practical). Who knows how Ofcom interpret it?

It would be more helpful if the requirement was specified in more detail. What protection against power failure is considered reasonable? What protection against terrorist attack is considered reasonable? What protection against civil unrest in considered reasonable? What protection against <insert threat here> is reasonable?

I did ask Ofcom what they thought was reasonable for the power question (why would I size a UPS to deliver more protection to comms. equipment than the rest of the network?) - I didn't get a response to my email.

I am taking it from a contractual viewpoint and having been responsible for a key UK comms network at one time, I know fully what the requirements are. There is always a level or "reasonable endeavours" and putting a year's worth of fuel in a location may not be reasonable, 10,000 generators - not rreasonable.

In addition to this, if there's a country-wide power outage that lasts three weeks then the availability of your internet service won't be in the top 100 considerations.

In reply to a post by jpm:

In addition to this, if there's a country-wide power outage that lasts three weeks then the availability of your internet service won't be in the top 100 considerations.

Of course it will .... all those millions who will not be able to use Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok &c to post pictures of empty fridges, being wrapped up in 19 layers, ... they will be riotting.

In reply to a post by MHC:

I am taking it from a contractual viewpoint and having been responsible for a key UK comms network at one time, I know fully what the requirements are. There is always a level or "reasonable endeavours" and putting a year's worth of fuel in a location may not be reasonable, 10,000 generators - not rreasonable.

I am reading the "General Conditions of Entitlement" under which most (all?) public communications networks operate and stating what the English means. That is not a matter of contract but a matter of law.

I haven't traced up through the legislation under which those conditions exist to see whether there is a requirement for the conditions to be reasonable. It wouldn't surprise me if there was, but it wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't either. I note that the conditions apply reasonability to some requirements and not others so I'm leaning towards there not being a reasonability test in the legislation but that is speculation - feel free to prove me wrong.

Contracts don't always have a "reasonable endeavours" element, or, if they do then it doesn't apply to all parts. Whilst the parties receiving the money really want there to be a reasonable endeavours clause, that usually doesn't apply to the essence of the contract. If I pay you to paint my door red and you paint it black then saying that you used reasonable endeavours to get red paint but black was all you could get hold of isn't going to cut it if you sue me when I don't pay you.

If I was buying a communications link which was expressly to be used in the event of a power failure then a reasonable endeavours clause permitting non-performance in the case of power failure makes the whole supply useless to me. Of course, that might mean that I can't buy what I want - there are solutions to that - one is that I buy some dark fibre and do it myself, the other is that I point out to government that critical national infrastructure should be protected from power failure and they should require people who provide it to do that so I don't need to ask for it on a commercial basis (which would never be offered) - see above.

In my case when upgrading from FTTC to FTTP with Vodafone I explicitly agreed to removal of the copper after the installation was complete. However the OpenReach team installing the fibre cracked the copper connection while installing the fibre (tugged it to see if it was in a buried duct) but the broadband continued working. They repaired it and installed the fibre ready for connection.
Then a different OpenReach team installing fibre next door cracked our copper again (without interrupting broadband) apparently by damaging an original junction box in the duct along the street! Finally, several days later, I was connected to FTTP and have been promised some compensation for about 10 days without a landline telephone. In fact the OR engineer who activated the FTTP did not connect the telephone as it was not included on his jobsheet and it took another few days before the necessary adjustments were made by Vodafone.

We are not French!!!!!!

In reply to a post by jpm:

In addition to this, if there's a country-wide power outage that lasts three weeks then the availability of your internet service won't be in the top 100 considerations.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Of course it will .... all those millions who will not be able to use Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok &c to post pictures of empty fridges, being wrapped up in 19 layers, ... they will be riotting.

For this winter past winter at least they dodged a bullet. It was mild and there were no severe storms. If we'd run low of gas it may have been a far more immediate, pressing and problematic issue.

They wont let the supermarkets run dry though - civil unrest in 72 hours if you cant get bog roll let alone food

In reply to a post by Dassa:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Do the alt nets have any Ofcom requirements over resilience ?

I believe that, if they provide internet access then, as a minimum, clause A3.2 of the "General Conditions of Entitlement" applies which says:

A3.2 Regulated Providers must take all necessary measures to ensure:
(a) the fullest possible availability of Voice Communications Services and Internet Access Services provided over Public Electronic Communications Networks in the event of catastrophic network breakdown or in cases of force majeure; and
(b) uninterrupted access to Emergency Organisations as part of any Voice Communications Services offered.

That, as written, is a very strong requirement - if the network fails during a power failure then by definition the requirement has not been met. The word "reasonable" doesn't feature in the text so if the network would fail after a three week country wide power failure then they have failed to meet that requirement and are in breach of their license.

I suspect that Ofcom's enforcement approach doesn't match the strength of the regulation however.

Thanks for the update. I was pretty sure there were from memory, just really didn't fancy the trawl through the bowels of the Ofcom site and/or Communications Act stuff on.gov.uk

What is interesting is that it has been brought up to date in recent iterations, such that the availability of service obligations specifically include "Voice Communications Services and Internet Access Services" and the scope of ‘Regulated Provider’ has likewise been extended.

In previous iterations it was solely fixed voice related which as we now know makes up a relatively tiny proportion of what fixed line communaitions network carry.

"This condition aims to ensure the fullest possible availability of public communications services at all times, including in the event of a disaster or catastrophic network failure, and uninterrupted access to emergency organisations. It requires providers of call services to ensure that calls can be made to emergency organisations free of charge and to make caller location information available to emergency organisations where technically feasible. It also includes specific rules relating to providers of VoIP outbound call services which aim to ensure that users of those services are aware of any potential limitations on making calls to emergency organisations and that accurate and up-to-date caller location information can be provided to the emergency organisations where possible."

I think the statement above as taken from the top of section A3 in The General Conditions makes it unequivocally clear that there is an obligation to provide a resilient and available network and not just cheap it out as many Alt Nets are doing.

In reply to a post by bsg017:

In my case when upgrading from FTTC to FTTP with Vodafone I explicitly agreed to removal of the copper after the installation was complete. However the OpenReach team installing the fibre cracked the copper connection while installing the fibre (tugged it to see if it was in a buried duct) but the broadband continued working. They repaired it and installed the fibre ready for connection.
Then a different OpenReach team installing fibre next door cracked our copper again (without interrupting broadband) apparently by damaging an original junction box in the duct along the street! Finally, several days later, I was connected to FTTP and have been promised some compensation for about 10 days without a landline telephone. In fact the OR engineer who activated the FTTP did not connect the telephone as it was not included on his jobsheet and it took another few days before the necessary adjustments were made by Vodafone.

I think the moral of the story there is get the landline number shifted to run over the top of the new and reliable fibre connection rather than the creaking, breaking copper network asap.

I agree with getting the phone over the fibre connection but that does not happen automatically when fibre is installed - it is an optional extra. Although it was part of my original order, in my case it took several days after broadband activation to get the necessary changes made. I think the main technical fact I learned is that the local 60 year old copper network is fragile and closing of the PSTN is likely justifiable on reliability grounds. (I did not say in my original post that the OR engineer sent to trace the first fault in the copper wire snapped it entirely while probing, and I had 36 hours without either telephone or broadband over the PTSN.)

Mine was removed despite my landline not being part of my ISP package. I did WANT it removed though as I had always planned to migrate it over to VoIP once FTTP was installed, so it was a happy mistake by the installer for me which technically I could have claimed compensation for but didn't bother.

For anyone not specifically migrating to a VoIP/Digital Voice service or with the landline not part of their broadband contract, it should definitely not be removed. I think part of the problem is most installs being done with third-party contractors.

Edited by alexatkin (Tue 18-Apr-23 02:03:54)

In reply to a post by alexatkin:

Mine was removed despite my landline not being part of my ISP package. I did WANT it removed though as I had always planned to migrate it over to VoIP once FTTP was installed, so it was a happy mistake by the installer for me which technically I could have claimed compensation for but didn't bother.

For anyone not specifically migrating to a VoIP/Digital Voice service or with the landline not part of their broadband contract, it should definitely not be removed. I think part of the problem is most installs being done with third-party contractors.

Indeed for one of my Friends they had a landline but only because at the time it was cheaper to order a landline + the broadband than SOGEA was (Yeh I don't understand that either). So they didn't really care that it was removed as they never actually used it for voice.