contractor declined to do the outside work - what now?

Last month I ordered fibre from Vodafone with a proposed activation date of 18.07.2024 (this coming Thursday).

A couple of weeks ago a contractor knocked on my door - the early signs were not good - he said he usually had someone with him but was alone today. He looked at the pole which serves my house and described it as a "toothpick" - clearly not enthusiastic. The pole supports a fibre mainline but on it there is not endpoint - the line goes through some trees to a neighbour's pole which does have an endpoint. He said this endpoint on the neighbour's pole would be his starting point and because it went through trees back to my pole he would not be able to do it - he would have to send the job back to Openreach. He then sat in his van for an hour - presumably so he could collect on the job.

I've heard nothing since with no update on the order. I''m not expecting activation this Thursday.

What can I expect from here?

I believe you should be chasing this the Vodafone.

Give your ISP a kick. My line comes through trees on a public highway to a carrier pole and then across to my house through my trees.


My neighbour recently ordered FTTP - three time OR sub-cons refused "becasue of trees" on both public highway and my garden (no objection from me). It took a high level intervention before OR sent OR technicians to do it - all easy for them. The three month delay meant about £600 in compensation! I believe the sub-cons will not do ones like as it may require a second operative and thus reduces what each are paid and secondly, it takes time and they are/were paid per job.

Had this before with an FTTC connection and a tree - if the tree is on public land then pretty much every council has an agreement with Openreach that they are allowed to prune the tree.

The Kelly subcontractor informed our site contact that we would need to arrange the tree to be cut and then marked the job as complete. An actual Openreach engineer turned up a few days later and completed the task with no problems.

Thanks. I contacted Vodafone who assured me the work would be done on time. I don't believe them - but it won't be the end of the world with £6.10 for every day it is late.

I saw a job recently where contractors had furthered it stating they were unable to deploy Tetra due to rendering on the house. Was unable to get a drop wire through trees. Was unable to climb pole due to ‘it being in a tree’ ……

The pole could easily be climbed, and the tiny branch near it pushed to one side.

A drop wire through the tree might have taken some time, but a light light persistence would have prevailed.

Oh, and as for Tetra …. well a quick look as walking to the front door showed an existing span of hybrid fibre and copper. Inside at the location where the NTE was required, was an NTE, the pair of which, went straight back to the cabinet, and the ONT was lit.

Customer said they sat outside in their van for an hour, then left, no explanation.

You can’t buy quality can you ?

seems like they get paid for just turning up - but the extra for actually doing any work is not enough

These subbies are on pitiful rates. If the BT guys were on the same deal, they would be doing the same thing.

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

These subbies are on pitiful rates. If the BT guys were on the same deal, they would be doing the same thing.

But if they’ve just got to tone it back to the cab … handing back a tickle ?

I don't think there are many tone back to the cabs on fibre installs.

so as I expected what I was told wasn't true and there won't be an activation on the 18th.

one thing I don't understand: the pole that serves my house already supports a fibre cable. Is it not possible to create a junction here? From the pole tt's a clear line of sight to my house with no issues.

The way such fibres are run, no, just ‘creating a junction’ isn’t going to happen.

I wasn’t on a fibre install.

Previous owners had both FTTP and a copper voice service. The new owners had ordered SOGEA. This was what the contractor(s) came to provide, it was their throw back I was sorting out.

seems a lack of foresight from Openreach - it's obvious there's a copper wire serving my house - and that one day a fibre connection would be needed. When the cable was being run I was not informed and didn't know it was happening - I could have let them know.

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

These subbies are on pitiful rates. If the BT guys were on the same deal, they would be doing the same thing.

rather than paying them for doing nothing they should pay them better for actually doing the job

They get paid the same if the job takes 30 minutes or 4 hours, which means long duration jobs often get binned so they can do more short duration jobs.

Is the 1st pole from you where the copper DP is located or is it just a carrier pole?

In reply to a post by Apostate:

seems a lack of foresight from Openreach - it's obvious there's a copper wire serving my house - and that one day a fibre connection would be needed. When the cable was being run I was not informed and didn't know it was happening - I could have let them know.

I heard numerous examples of where OR or Contractors turn up and only realise the requirements of the job the moment they have eyes on. OR themselves say that someone can come out prior to a job to check before the activation/install date, ive never seen it.

Anyway, this is an install that can happen and the ISP need to chase it up, I feel for you though, my goodness Vodafone CS is bad, I cancelled in my cooling off period, I just couldnt take it, yes they offered the cheapest FTTP 900 package but even so.

My parents in laws fibre comes accross a main road and someone elses garden, nope OR didnt know this till they arrived so they didnt do the work that day, but they did over the next few weeks get permission from the neighbour and whatever else and got it done, EE compensated them 5 quid a day until it went live, in fact as far as I know OR compensate the ISP for the failed install which is passed on, you'd think in this case OR would do their due dilligence in advance of installs, I expect the pressure to get x amount of installs done puts this all out the window.

The latest update is that there is a problem with a tree which needs to be dug up and it has very deep roots! After the assurance I had from them that the work would be done by today enough was enough and I've cancelled with Vodafone.

In reply to a post by Apostate:

The latest update is that there is a problem with a tree which needs to be dug up and it has very deep roots! After the assurance I had from them that the work would be done by today enough was enough and I've cancelled with Vodafone.

Tree dug up...deep roots....what on earth?

Your cancellation with Vodafone will drop the order off Openreach's books too, so if you order from another ISP a different engineer will likely come out and may have a better view or approach. EE are doing some good deals right now.

Edited by naylor2006 (Thu 18-Jul-24 13:30:18)

In reply to a post by naylor2006:

In reply to a post by Apostate:

The latest update is that there is a problem with a tree which needs to be dug up and it has very deep roots! After the assurance I had from them that the work would be done by today enough was enough and I've cancelled with Vodafone.

Tree dug up...deep roots....what on earth?

Your cancellation with Vodafone will drop the order off Openreach's books too, so if you order from another ISP a different engineer will likely come out and may have a better view or approach. EE are doing some good deals right now.

Yes I could hardly believe what I was hearing.

I'm going with BT which at the moment is only £5 more. I can always change after 2 years when the big hurdle of installation will have been overcome.

In reply to a post by Apostate:

In reply to a post by naylor2006:

In reply to a post by Apostate:

The latest update is that there is a problem with a tree which needs to be dug up and it has very deep roots! After the assurance I had from them that the work would be done by today enough was enough and I've cancelled with Vodafone.

Tree dug up...deep roots....what on earth?

Your cancellation with Vodafone will drop the order off Openreach's books too, so if you order from another ISP a different engineer will likely come out and may have a better view or approach. EE are doing some good deals right now.

Yes I could hardly believe what I was hearing.

I'm going with BT which at the moment is only £5 more. I can always change after 2 years when the big hurdle of installation will have been overcome.

Did the same thing, I went with BT, paid the little extra but was worth it. I had contractors do my install MJ Quinn......they were half decent and there was two of them. My install was just from a pole though that was very close to my house already.

Reason I didnt go with with BT originally was because their records didnt reflect I could get FTTP, the BT Wholesale Checker wouldnt show it so therefore their systems wouldnt let me order it....no matter what, I honestly tried! So went with Vodafone, infact all the other ISP's showed I could get Full Fibre aside from BT and their associated ones like EE.

Luckily by the time I lost my mind with Vodafone the records had updated!

Good luck with the re-order.

In reply to a post by witchunt:

Is the 1st pole from you where the copper DP is located or is it just a carrier pole?

what's a "DP"?

As a follow on to this there is another pole which serves my neighbour on the other side. It's a different pole to the one that serves the copper line to my house.

He receives his FTTP wire from this other pole. It's also close to my house and would not require any tree cutting. No work would be required on the neighbour's land but the wire would go over his garden. Can he block this?

I'm thinking about mentioning this as a possibility when the next neighbour comes.

In reply to a post by Apostate:

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

These subbies are on pitiful rates. If the BT guys were on the same deal, they would be doing the same thing.

rather than paying them for doing nothing they should pay them better for actually doing the job

I doubt the subby got paid for an incomplete job.

In reply to a post by Apostate:

The latest update is that there is a problem with a tree which needs to be dug up and it has very deep roots! After the assurance I had from them that the work would be done by today enough was enough and I've cancelled with Vodafone.

When I was in this game I visited tens of thousands of punters and I never once saw anyone digging up a tree to provide service. This is nonsense.

In reply to a post by Apostate:

As a follow on to this there is another pole which serves my neighbour on the other side. It's a different pole to the one that serves the copper line to my house.

He receives his FTTP wire from this other pole. It's also close to my house and would not require any tree cutting. No work would be required on the neighbour's land but the wire would go over his garden. Can he block this?

I'm thinking about mentioning this as a possibility when the next neighbour comes.

My hunch is that addresses are pre planned to be served from pre determined points. I would imagine this will involve noting length of cable needed and hazards such a trees from planning surveys.

I guess moving service point is not a simple thing. Your problem maybe down to a subby being unable to raise a second bloke or a cherry picker to help route through the obstructing trees and scarpering on to more profitable ground. Then poor job management by the isp and network provider exacerbating.

Best of luck with the new isp.

Edited by FibreBubble (Thu 18-Jul-24 21:02:59)

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

In reply to a post by Apostate:

As a follow on to this there is another pole which serves my neighbour on the other side. It's a different pole to the one that serves the copper line to my house.

He receives his FTTP wire from this other pole. It's also close to my house and would not require any tree cutting. No work would be required on the neighbour's land but the wire would go over his garden. Can he block this?

I'm thinking about mentioning this as a possibility when the next neighbour comes.

My hunch is that addresses are pre planned to be served from pre determined points. I would imagine this will involve noting length of cable needed and hazards such a trees from planning surveys.

I guess moving service point is not a simple thing. Your problem maybe down to a subby being unable to raise a second bloke or a cherry picker to help route through the obstructing trees and scarpering on to more profitable ground. Then poor job management by the isp and provider exacerbating.

Best of luck with the new provider.

Yes my worry is that they will keep sending a lone sub-contractor (or if not sent by someone he will certainly come alone). See the job requires 2 to pull the wire through the trees - then disappear

In reply to a post by Apostate:

what's a "DP"?

Distribution Pole - has drop cables to one or more properties. As opposed to Carrier Pole, which strings cables along from A to B but doesn't serve any properties. See this guide (pdf)

It’s actually Distribution Point , not Distribution Pole , you also have underground DP’s , Internal DP’s and External DP’s ( blocks on walls ) as well as pole mounted DP’s , ( OH , overhead in OR parlance )

Edited by Iniltous (Fri 19-Jul-24 11:03:54)

If it's a DP there will be a black box at the top where the copper drop wires connect to each property. The pole may have a label that shows the number , e.g. DP21. If it's just a carrier pole there will be no termination box and there maybe a label that shows the carrier pole number e.g. CP1 , CP2 etc

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

In reply to a post by Apostate:

The latest update is that there is a problem with a tree which needs to be dug up and it has very deep roots! After the assurance I had from them that the work would be done by today enough was enough and I've cancelled with Vodafone.

When I was in this game I visited tens of thousands of punters and I never once saw anyone digging up a tree to provide service. This is nonsense.

Same as that.

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

It’s actually Distribution Point...

The OR doc I quoted calls it a pole. At least twice. Is there an alternative source for point, so that DP might mean either?

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

It’s actually Distribution Point...

The OR doc I quoted calls it a pole. At least twice. Is there an alternative source for point, so that DP might mean either?

DP stands for 'Distribution Point' all day long, can be up a pole or down a hole or even in the basement of a building.

In reply to a post by PCJM40:

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

It’s actually Distribution Point...

The OR doc I quoted calls it a pole. At least twice. Is there an alternative source for point, so that DP might mean either?

DP stands for 'Distribution Point' all day long, can be up a pole or down a hole or even in the basement of a building.

Agreed, DP in Openreach parlance, means distribution point.
Each will have a unique to its owning exchange identifying number.
They can be overhead, underground radial, underground, running , internal, external …
This is for copper.
For FTTP, it has different names. CBT, track node, manifold, agg node, etc, etc.

I doubt the subby got paid for an incomplete job.

They do. Can’t recall the exact figure, but the installers get a small fee for an incomplete.

Is anybody listening? I provided an Openreach document as a reference that DP can mean Distribution Pole. I'm shouted down by multiple people who assert, without giving any references of their own, and making no mention of the reference that I quoted, that it stands for Distribution Point.

This is a trivial issue and I don't want to labour it. I can accept that it could mean either according to context. However it would be better if folks could justify their assertions when requested, which they have not done. Otherwise we end up in a situation where those who shout loudest prevail, irrespective of the facts. That's more like Trump's America than a basis for rational discussion and debate.

I don’t think the intention was to ‘shout you down’ , it’s not easy to provide references to something not particularly intended for public consumption, but the term DP is used in relation to underground distribution, overhead distribution, internal and external distribution, these other methods obviously don’t include a pole , it is true that you provide a link to a document intended to help interested parties identify Openreach plant , and does indeed state distribution pole , but that immediately fails if looking at a DP within an office block situation mounted on a wall , it rather obviously isn’t a distribution pole .

I dare say whoever produced the guide was either ignorant of the actual abbreviation or decided that a minor error would be helpful to the casual observer, the guide even includes a disclaimer about its contents, at least one of the contributors stating its Distribution Point is an Openreach employee

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

Is anybody listening?

Sorry if you thought you was being shouted down that was never mine or anyone else's intentions. I have seen many official Openreach documents with errors in them done by Marketing teams who haven't reached out to get the facts. The only evidence I can give you is from the knowledge of people here who have worked for GPO/BT/Openreach which probably adds up to over 100 years of employment.

Edited by PCJM40 (Sun 21-Jul-24 12:37:32)

It actually means both Distribution Point and Distribution Pole. If you see a pole with 'DP' on it, it means its a Distribution Pole. CP means Carrier Pole. Distribution Points can be installed in all sorts of places, but the little black on white markers on the side of poles that say 'DP' refer to the pole, which also have at least one Distribution Point on it.

HTH

In reply to a post by andrum99:

It actually means both Distribution Point and Distribution Pole. If you see a pole with 'DP' on it, it means its a Distribution Pole. CP means Carrier Pole. Distribution Points can be installed in all sorts of places, but the little black on white markers on the side of poles that say 'DP' refer to the pole, which also have at least one Distribution Point on it.

HTH

This is incorrect.

The pole will be marked with a DP reference number which refers to the copper distribution point at its top.
All poles ‘distribute’ cables to some degree. The additional ones not carrying a copper DP (distribution point) are carrier poles, hence being marked (but not always) CP the number after refers to how far from the DP block, CP1, CP2, etc, etc.

Apologies to those concerned by the pedantry on display, but if people are posting incorrect information, then this needs addressing.

As to why I feel I am right. 26 years service dealing with such things day in and day out.

Don't forget the exciting 'continuous DP' where a CP can be DP and a CP all at the same time

Edited by FibreBubble (Sun 21-Jul-24 18:39:04)

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

Don't forget the exciting 'continuous DP' where a CP can be DP and a CP all at the same time

Yes indeed …..

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

if people are posting incorrect information, then this needs addressing.

Spot on

In reply to a post by PCJM40:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

if people are posting incorrect information, then this needs addressing.

Spot on

Long way off the OP's original topic so apologies.

[rant]While this has always been a problem, with my grumpy old man hat on I think that some of the current ways are a generational thing. Back in the day you had to learn numeracy and language skills including accuracy in applying them (so things like basic sums, basic spelling, basic punctuation etc.). The educational establishment then decreed that the policy should be that those things were hindrances to the ability for people to express themselves. While this enabled the sad decline in the number of people who can write, spell and punctuate correctly or do basic mental arithmetic the unintended consequence was that people also lost the necessary disciplines when assessing information leading to the passing on of dubious information and the rise of all of the ludicrous conspiracy theories leading those unable to think astray. It is not helped by the fact that previously you could only pass on your dubious information to the bloke you met in the pub while now you can access a world wide audience. The only comfort I can draw is that whichever way you look at it, 50% of the population are stupider than the average.[/rant]

Edited by GonePostal (Mon 22-Jul-24 00:57:52)

As a 10 year retired ex Railway Train Crew/Supervisor and before that a Post Office International Telecommunications opertor/supervisor, seeing the decline in the use of spelling, punctuation, and mental arithmatic (basic Math) really annoys me, and has been increased by the use of Americanisms because of the social media we now have.

I wonder how many British people know the association between BODMAS and PEMDAS or what either mean

BODMAS is being taught in British schools right now, but PEDMAS is a new one on me at least (I will ask the kids!)

No need it's the same thing, just what the Yanks call BODMAS, parenthesis, exponents instead of brackets, orders

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

In reply to a post by Apostate:

what's a "DP"?

Distribution Pole - has drop cables to one or more properties. As opposed to Carrier Pole, which strings cables along from A to B but doesn't serve any properties. See this guide (pdf)

It serves my house. I will have a look at the codes on it when I'm home - away at the moment.

It carries an optic cable but no what I call endpoints (black lozenge shaped) - the poles adjacent to it which serve my neighbours both have lozenges. The subcontactor said he would have to work from one of these neighbours poles but the wire goes through trees which is what is creating the problem

Well this is turning into a complete nightmare. Having ordered with BT I kept getting emails once per day saying the order was cancelled and reordered. Then yesterday the order was cancelled with no reorder.

I telephoned BT who could not find the problem. They thought it might be that Vodafone have not released my line. I phoned Vodafone who assured me this has been done.

I seem to be stuck in a loop and I don't know how to solve this.

BODMAS was what I learned going on 40 years ago but I have heard of PEDMAS having found a youtube video about it. Am not surprised at the people who can't work things out having apprentices say to me they can't remember trigonometry having left school over a year before LOL

In reply to a post by Apostate:

Well this is turning into a complete nightmare. Having ordered with BT I kept getting emails once per day saying the order was cancelled and reordered. Then yesterday the order was cancelled with no reorder.

I telephoned BT who could not find the problem. They thought it might be that Vodafone have not released my line. I phoned Vodafone who assured me this has been done.

I seem to be stuck in a loop and I don't know how to solve this.

Time to email BT CEO ?