Phorm

An alert for Plusnet's PAYG users on RIN.

In spite of all the assurances that Plusnet wouldn't use Phorm, a Plusnet user has received the Webwise invite page.

See http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,70440.0.html

As mentioned on the Community forum where we had this brought to our attention, we are investigating this and have contacted BT. This shouldn't be happening.

The RIN network was a trial service and customers using it who wish to, can switch over to the Plusnet nework at any time using the @plusdsl.net realm.

In reply to:

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A Plusnet user

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Wow tinfoil hat time!.

One we've heard about! How many more have there been?

I used to say that to you, how times have changed

So you can opt out I take it. Or you can revert to the PN Network. So it's hardly worth a song and dance at this stage is it?.

BT assured Plusnet that it wouldn't affect RIN users.

Can we trust them in relation to other ISPs and particularly WBMC?

That's why it is an issue.

Not a song and a dance, but worth a careful look.

When you opt out I believe you only opt out of the targeted ad's and phishing tool, the data still goes via Phorm hardware, or that may have changed now

The Phorm kit is in the gap between Access and Internet components and controlled by BT Retail.

So for BT Wholesale to manage to do this under WBMC would be a surprise to say the least.

You might be ignoring Andrew when he said

In reply to:

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Perhaps if going to discuss the merits of webwise/phorm etc it would be better to move discussion to the appropriate forum section.

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but I am not!

In reply to:

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Would BT use it if it was illegal

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They have and are!

My point is PN customers can revert to the PN network. Bearing in mind RIN is actually BT's, it is reasonable to overlook that a small number of PN's customers use it.

PN have publically stated it shouldn't have happened. Give them time to investigate. This is just the sort of kneejerk POST that PN customers complained about in the past.

In reply to:

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They have and are!

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So you have decided it's illegal!

No, not me but some highly qualified legal bods with detailed knowledge of the law in this area.

Well one can assume they weren't that convinced, did they contemplate a private prosecution?.

Let's get back on topic. Why are you jumping on PN for something that has happened on BT's network?.

My target is NOT Plusnet. From what I read in the past, Plusnet had been assured by BT that RIN users would not be affected.

The problem is the lying slimebags at BT and Phorm!

Edited by jelv (Mon 10-Nov-08 15:42:24)

So why not post in the BT forum under "Lying slimebags and Phorm"?. Posting in this forum is, whether you like it or not, laying the blame with Plusnet.

I'm sure a reasonable explanation and apology will be forthcoming from PN. Bearing in mind they have always publicly stated they will not entertain Phorm.

Now why you have attempted to stir up a storm in a teacup is anyones guess.

I have just posted an update on this to our forums on http://community.plus.net/ As you know, as soon as one of our customers alerted us to this at 11.25am today we started investigations into how this might've happened.

The customer affected is one of only around 250 customers who are connecting to the RIN network, as part of the trial we ran between February and September last year. RIN is BT's Retail Network that we were trying out on a trial basis. The RIN trial is unconnected to BT Webwise and it looks as though a configuration error was responsible for the presentation of the Webwise screen. This configuration was put right as soon as we were notified and as we understand it this has been confirmed as the only instance of this occurring. As previously stated, customers using RIN on Plusnet should not see the BT Webwise invitation screen or be able to join the BT Webwise trial.

We can confirm that no further Plusnet customers should be presented with the BT Webwise screen, and that our customers' web traffic will not form any part of BT Webwise trial.

Customers on the RIN network can change their connection settings to (username)@plusdsl.net to connect to Plusnet Centrals at any time.

Thanks for the update. Hopefully that will placate Jelv and put his mind at rest. Just as I predicted, a storm in a teacup.

The Register has done rather better than this site and managed to put the whole thing in to perspective: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/10/plusnet_phorm/

The incident appears to be isolated, but it once again highlights concerns about BT and Phorm's claims for the security of their interception technology, and their ability to operate it to specification.

Well it's nice to see such a bastion of balanced reporting agrees with you . I wonder who tipped them off

Your apparent hatred of all things Phorm related appears to affect rational thought. IT WAS A MISTAKE!.

Just seen the news article on the front page - seems a fair summary.

You forget though that this site is for rational internet users primarily, The Register peddles hardcore pron for those of a Tin Foil Hat wearing inclination.

In reply to:

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Just seen the news article on the front page - seems a fair summary.

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What else did you expect, a Jelv type conspiracy theory

Yes there is a private prosecution process in the pipeline.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/14/phorm_private_prosecution/

and more
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=phorm+private+prosecution&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

I hope such a prosecution would be sanctioned, however I doubt it very much.

In reply to:

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highly qualified legal bods with detailed knowledge of the law in this area.

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Of whom none are judges.

Funnily enough, BT Group Legal Services probably have some equally if not more qualified legal bods kicking about with detailed knowledge of the law in this area too.

Edited by deleted (Mon 10-Nov-08 19:55:11)

Your confidence in BT is touching. What needs to be factored into the equation is who was asked what questions when. A lot of the murky story of BT Webwise involves secrecy. For example ask BT what date they consulted John Regnault and see if you get a reply. The dates around the contacts with ICO, DBERR and Home Office are also very confusing and I think will eventually prove embarrassing to BT. I do wonder if a lot of decisions were made at BT Retail BEFORE the right legal questions were asked and before the full facts about Phorm and 121Media were known by people who would have dumped the whole plan if they HAD known eary enough.
So much of the story looks just like a retrofitting exercise - retrofitting Webwise to deal with one legal and technical issue after another. Even the Webwise invitation page wasn't in its final form when the trial started and had to be changed when a customer pointed out something missing that was legally important to include. It still looks very unlikely to satisfy the Consumer Protection from Unfair Regulations 2008.
Oh yes - and see if anyone can tell you when Bruce Scheier of BT Global was asked about the security implications.

You will draw a total blank on all these issues, unless you find a BT insider.

All BT need to do is answer these questions clearly. But they won't. Their choice.

My own experience of direct contact with BT Retails legal department did not inspire confidence. Greg Hughes is the man you need to talk to there.

Why should I be asking questions? I don't care.

I just wish they would hurry up and roll it out so I can replace the Google Ads on my sites.

PlusNet, sometimes, appears to be rather like another episode in the 'Carry On....' series.

I bet their first thought was,

'Oh no. Not again. Why does it always have to be us?'

One thing is for sure, it just shows how close the networks are to being integrated. This could have happened to any other ISP that uses BT's network. imho.

Actually, the networks are nowhere near being integrated, with no plans to do so.

RIN was a trial, back in 2007. It didn't work to Plusnet's satisfaction so they haven't gone ahead with implementing it. There are legacy triallists still using it, and it was one of those that was affected.

They must be nearly integrated otherwise it would not even have been possible for that person to even see it, let alone receive an invitation. Fact! A simple flick of a switch and they can turn it off. If no integration, that would not have been possible to switch off as quick as it was.

It just goes to show how easy it is for BT to route DPI equipment through their, or Plusnet's Network. Fact of the matter is, it should never even have happened, and I hope the person who is responsible for it, gets fired.

BT are nothing short of parasitic scum in my humble opinion.

Edited by soundsystem (Tue 11-Nov-08 08:59:28)

In reply to:

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BT are nothing short of parasitic scum in my humble opinion.

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What's this, "Free OTT Comment" forum? Grow up!

Looks far from humility in my opinion.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 11-Nov-08 09:32:23)

Sorry am I not allowed an opinion Mr Moderator, since when?

The whole point of RIN was it used the BT Retail Internet Network unlike the normal Plusnet systems which goes nowhere near it

Edited by deleted (Tue 11-Nov-08 10:16:09)

But my point is, someone who is on Plusnet, should never have had the Webwise screen presented.

Therefore, BT have the facility to put a RIN user from another ISP, NOT their own customer directly, through DPI.

Therefore the RIN must be integrated with Plusnet and BT, for them to act so fast and get it sorted.

Reading the Register, there's an interesting quote.

"The firm reaffirmed its position that it does not use Phorm's system on its network, has not trialled it and has no plans to at the moment."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/10/plusnet_phorm/

Would Plusnet like to take this opportunity to confirm, that they will in fact NEVER implement Phorm? That would then back up their claims that it was a genuine mistake.

The cynic would say, if they choose not to comment or denounce Phorm ever being implemented, then it was possibly not a genuine mistake.

In reply to:

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Would Plusnet like to take this opportunity to confirm, that they will in fact NEVER implement Phorm?

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Bit difficult that as one way the Government could speed up the implementation of its own plans would be to make Phorm compulsory for all ISPs.

Why do you think BT is being allowed to continue with its clearly illegal trials?

You are completely missing the point. No other ISP is using RIN.
This was a trial where a small number of customers (PAYG only) were offered the chance to try out the RIN system which completely bypassed the Ellacoya system and went straight into the BT Retail system (note the Retail). In this case the simple switch was to ensure that the login used by Plusnet on RIN was taken out of the Webwise trial.
With respect to Phorm Plusnet have made their position clear time after time and the Register correctly stated it.
Edit - corrected - thanks jelv

Edited by deleted (Tue 11-Nov-08 11:06:40)

<<<Why do you think BT is being allowed to continue with its clearly illegal trials?

Hence my comment, which I got told to grow up.

Plusnet would still know if they have been approached by the Govt. though, and would still be in a position to say yes we are going to in the future, or no we are not.

<<<You are completely missing the point. No other ISP is using RIN.

No, the customer was a Plusnet Customer not a BT one, what part of that is so hard to understand?

I concede from your explanation, that no other ISP uses RIN, but that does not rule out that BT could have made the same error on any other of their broadband networks, or have BT re cabled all the exchanges to give different scenarios, just in case this was ever to happen?

<<<With respect to Phorm Plusnet have made their position clear time after time and the Register correctly stated it.

With respect, PN have said in the past that they would not implement it, yesterday, it would appear that they stated, "and has no plans to at the moment"

That's a big change of stance, and where I come from, no longer rules it out as a possibility for the future.

Small error there Jim: Plusnet RIN users do not have their own IP range, we get allocated IPs from the same pool as BT's own users. It's our realm [email protected] that distinguishes us, and given how simple it is to tell us apart it makes it even more incredible that BT should foul up in this way.

Incompetent tw*ts!

The difference is when I connect to RIN I connect to a BT gateway. When the user of any other ISP (or all the rest of Plusnet's users) connect it is to a gateway they have bought for the exclusive use of themselves (or their clients).

The point of RIN was that we had a completely different login to access it and this went directly into the BT Retail Network. This is completely different to connecting to the BT Wholesale Network.
With respect to Plusnet saying never I would ask for a link as I don't remember ever seeing a statement that they would never use it
http://phormwatch.blogspot.com/2008/03/phorm-free-uk-isps.html

In reply to:

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Neil Armstrong, Products Director of PlusNet sent me an email with an official company statement: "We have not trialled Phorm and have no plans to do so."

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From the same page

In reply to:

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Zen Internet: http://www.zen.co.uk/ - have stated in an email that: "...we have no plans to perform customer URL stream monitoring, nor enter into contract with Phorm."

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I hope that was an i starred out and not an a

Test post "twits" - Oh dear

ZEN:

"We have not spoken to them and we would not speak to them," a Zen Internet spokeswoman said. The firm specialises in business broadband. "Zen Internet will continue to monitor OIX [Open Internet Exchange, Phorm's advertising network] with regards to protecting its customers."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/29/phorm_broadband_isp_targets/

Plusnet:

A spokesman at the Sheffield-based provider could not be reached today, but product manager Ian Wild told subscribers in its forums: "We'd certainly do an opt-in or opt-out with something like this if we ever did it.

"Just to say again though, I'm pretty neutral from a product manager perspective as long as our customers are happy, and from a personal perspective it's something I might well choose to opt-out of unless the reason not to was very compelling."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/29/phorm_broadband_isp_targets/

From the link you posted, "We have not trialled Phorm and have no plans to do so." is to me a fairly definitive, we won't be trying it.

Unless of course they were going to get BT to trial it, and then Plusnet would implement it without doing a trial. That's really the only other way our friend Neil could get out of that one.

Anyway, the balls in PN's court, are they going to confirm they will not implement it, or confirm there is a real possibility that they will use Phorm.

I wouldn't expect an open and honest answer though, as too many people may possibly leave.

"So, just to reiterate for those not watching closely, we don't have any plans to work with Phorm or anyone similar, although I can't guarantee that the RIN platform won't be affected (It presumably will)."

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,61201.msg498478.html#msg498478

Ian had his crystal ball out on that day

"Hi Jelv,

It is our understanding that RIN customers will be affected by this.

We're currently collectng further details and we're currently drafting an email to advise those customers of what this can mean for them and giving information on how to rejoin the PlusNet network."

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,61201.msg499301.html#msg499301

"As far as PlusNet is concerned it's been confirmed that we aren't planning to implement any system like this, and I don't think any more input from us is needed is it?"

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,61201.160.html

"For the few customers left using RIN there was always a chance they would be affected by this, but as it stands they aren't currently. We've already said that if that were to change there would be an email from us as well as the opt-out screen that BT customers get anyway (And of course the option to set your service back to the PlusNet network if you want). The plan was always to swing back the RIN realm once the trial ended anyway (which it has) and it may still happen anyway as part of a different project."

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,61201.160.html

Edited by soundsystem (Tue 11-Nov-08 11:13:58)

www.howbroadbandworksintheukforidiots.com

oops, sorry - wrong link.

<<<www.howbroadbandworksintheukforidiots.com

oops, sorry - wrong link.



Ahh another one who cannot have a conversation, but has to post insults?

Plusnet employee by any chance?

Edited by soundsystem (Tue 11-Nov-08 11:20:26)

(The grow up bit was with regard to the OTT language in the description of BT).

Re the point you make here, I'm not sure Plusnet would know what "conspiracy theory" deal HMG have with BT. I believe it was a genuine mistake on the BT side of RIN, which is totally outside Plusnet control, and Phorm may even be one of the reasons Plusnet withdrew from the trial.

I don't expect any relevant statement from Plusnet as any such would need to come from very senior management and could endanger their own jobs. This is the real world I'm afraid.

What I find strange is that only one RIN user at Plusnet was affected. Almost as though in some way that user falls into some other group in the continuing BT trial and was accidentally not removed.

From http://www2.bt.com/static/i/btretail/webwise/help.html#when-will-you-trial-bt-webwise

In reply to:

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When will you be trialling BT Webwise?

BT is commencing trials of BT Webwise on 30th September 2008. We will be inviting a small proportion of BT's consumer broadband customers to take part in the trial. The trial involves only BT Retail consumer broadband customers; it does not involve customers of BT Business, BT Ireland or other BT-owned ISPs, such as PlusNet.

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Shows how much you can trust anything BT say.

Not at all.

Unfortunately, although people have tried to explain to you how the RIN network trial functioned, you choose to believe that BT can somehow intercept all ISP's traffic.

They can't.

If you actually took a minute to read some of the responses that were posted, you might understand how the RIN trial actually worked, and therefore how it was possible for this issue to occur.

However, if you choose not to read and digest the information then the above link is obviously for you.

I have already conceded the point about the RIN, a few posts back if you have a little read.

However, my point still stands, a Plusnet Customer on a Plusnet based trial gets an invite from BT. How is it not possible that it cannot be rolled out on any network that BT choose?

Carry on with the insults, if it pleases you that much, its only a forum, and not as if I have to speak to you in real life.

I think the main reason Plusnet stopped the trial was that PAYG was the only type of account which was suitable for going through RIN (BBYW depends on the traffic prioritisation of the Plusnet Ellacoyas). Plusnet stopped selling PAYG, therefore end of trial.

I'll say it again.

BT or Plusnet RIN users connect to BT Retail gateways.

Other ISPs users (and rest of Plusnet users) connect to ISP Gateways.

The penny drops......

The RIN trial was clearly marked as a trial involving the BT network - anyone who VOLUNTEERED for the trial was given plenty of information at the time that they would be using the BT network - It was fairly obvious because that was the whole point of it.

So, later on when BT decide to trial Phorm on BT'S NETWORK, people are surprised that a user who is using BT'S NETWORK is invited onto the trial?

There were warnings posted by Ian Wild and James Bailey that RIN may be affected (as it's not Plusnet's network, it's BT'S NETWORK)

I'd be interested to see how you believe that BT can just inject themselves onto any other ISP's network. BT handle the Colossus traffic for most reseller ISPs, but unfortunately it's not possible for them to actually intercept any particular traffic stream at that point. End users see first-hop from their router to their ISP gateway (although many hops occur in the BT ATM "cloud" up to that point)

I think that ISPs would be more worried about other, more pressing security issues if BT were able to interfere with the traffic between router and gateway.

See you can be helpful when you want to

I have conceded that now.

In reply to:

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I'd be interested to see how you believe that BT can just inject themselves onto any other ISP's network. BT handle the Colossus traffic for most reseller ISPs, but unfortunately it's not possible for them to actually intercept any particular traffic stream at that point. End users see first-hop from their router to their ISP gateway (although many hops occur in the BT ATM "cloud" up to that point)

In reply to:

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I hope that was a typo although given our government's attampts to control everything perhaps it might be a forecast of things to come

In reply to:

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Shows how much you can trust anything BT say.

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Jelv. What part of "and it looks as though a configuration error was responsible for the presentation of the Webwise screen," don't you understand???

Now if the customer had not received the webwise screen, but had been included in the trails, fair enough.

You have jumped the gun and made yourself look a fool.

This http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=newsite&Number=3495887 just confirms it

Edited by wingco1 (Tue 11-Nov-08 11:57:42)

RIN is BT Retail, not BT Wholesale.

The routing from and to the exchange for BT Retail is done by BT Wholesale. BT Retail have no control over the rest of BT Wholesale's network, hence no possibility of accessing any other ISP's network that also runs through BT Wholesale.

It's a bit like the Entanet model isn't it? BT Retail is an ISP, like Entanet.

Plusnet through its own Central Pluses is an ISP. Plusnet through RIN is in effect a re-seller of a service provided by BT Retail. So of course Retail can technically do anything, and by the same token make a mess of something.

On BT's information page they categorically stated Plusnet users would not be included. Any competent organisation, in working with such a high profile issue where they know their every move is being watched, would have double checked to make sure that Plusnet users were not included. The specific issue of Plusnet RIN was raised months ago.

Conclusions:

(a) You can't trust anything BT say

(b) Even if BTdo intend to do what they say you can't trust them to have the technical competence to get it right

The incident does have a bearing on BT's integrity and competence. Not only were they warned about this possibility quite some time ago, they made statements that specifically ruled out PlusNet customers being affected.

Someone commented that it was odd that only one RIN customer was affected. Given that BT is supposed to be trialling 10,000 users, it is even more odd that there are only 3-4 maximum examples of Webwise invitations being discussed on the entire internet - one went to a BT Broadband Anywhere customer and snarled up his mobile device badly, and another went to a Plusnet customer. We only have one other example verified and that person hasn't been able to give details of any cookies set. There are about 9,996 triallists out there who are completely silent. There was more evidence on the internet of the COVERT trials in 2006 and 2007 than there is of this 2008 one.

It raises real questions about the effectiveness of the trial and the rate at which it is proceeding and whether it is truly random - or whether it is in a form which differs from that which was publicly advertised by BT Retail as being about to take place on September 30th (coincidentally just at the time when Phorm's mid term financial results were due out, revealing catastrophic losses and a collapsing share price)

See posts here discussing integrity and competence of BT
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/message.jspa?messageID=45407#45407
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/message.jspa?messageID=45554#45554

My main concerns about this news are not that PlusNet are doing anything wrong - I imagine they are FUMING (like many execs and employees in BT Group too) - but that it reveals just what sort of a job BT are doing running their ISP over in BT Retail.
http://www.donottrustwebwise.org
http://iswebwiselegal.com

Edited by revrobert (Tue 11-Nov-08 12:09:36)

In reply to:

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This could have happened to any other ISP that uses BT's network.

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Nope I dont think so... someone else asked me about this elsewhere yesterday, and I'd already drawn my own conclusions even before Pete's response, yesterday afternoon.

Its my belief that this is purely to do with RIN and the Central Plus product.
After-all which other ISPs use the Central Plus Product?

This didnt happen to all customers - only one customer that was using RIN.

BT Wholesales description of BT Central Plus is quote

With this option, user logins are authenticated within BT broadband network and service providers do not, therefore, have to provide a RADIUS server.

Note the bit in red!
Once authenticated on RIN its extremely hard to tell who the real ISP is.. the IPrange and rdNS all appear point back to BTBroadband (aka BT retail)

and its also very important to bear in mind this did not happen with the vast majority of circa 200,000+ customers who connect via ISP Centrals and who are authenticated by Plusnets own RADIUS servers.

In reply to:

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BT Wholesales description of BT Central Plus is quote

With this option, user logins are authenticated within BT broadband network and service providers do not, therefore, have to provide a RADIUS server.

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I think that almost certainly means the BT Wholesale broadband network, just someone didn't think to include the word.

In reply to:

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Once authenticated on RIN its extremely hard to tell who the real ISP is.. the IPrange and rdNS all appear point back to BTBroadband (aka BT retail)

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Hasn't it already been established in this thread that this is to be expected, as RIN is BT Retail Internet Network?

Hehe, yeah - I meant it in the context of "unfortunately" for the case of BT wanting to intercept traffic, and "fortunately" for us.

>> Hasn't it already been established in this thread that this is to be expected

umm - sorry didnt realise I couldn't add my 2p too.
There were quite a lot of posts to read, and I'd directly responded to this one.

If you view it in threaded mode you'll see there were no other responses down that string... and I can honestly say I hadnt seen all the other responses in the whole thread when I made my post.

What is it about this forum that makes people start sniping at each other. ...
granted you havent as such.. but some of the other comments in this thread do set the tone.

In reply to:

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What is it about this forum that makes people start sniping at each other

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Maybe they prefer it to posting on the FC forum


/gets coat and shuts the door quickly

I could give you a time line of the article, but suffice to say it takes time to put them together get the quote and do a myriad of other things at the same time.

Imagine if it had turned out to be something like the bill payer had migrated the connection to BT Total, and the person posting did not know this or that it had taken place early. That would have been egg on our face, if we'd published without checking.

Can I suggest you look into Limited Service Selection, i.e. I can have two logins that connect to different BT Centrals or one to a Central and another to Central Plus.

It is all just a case of how your data is routed, almost every ISP is just a routing command or two away from another ISP.

All this excitment because, in the words of the OP

In reply to:

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a Plusnet user has received the Webwise invite page.

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I did reply to my own post acknowledging the article you posted.

And yes, before you say it, I guess you do take considerably more care to verify the veracity of your articles than certain other news websites!

Cough cough .

Actually down the sub-thread starting with that post, in threaded mode which I also use nearly all the time, I see 34 posts timed before yours .

Shall we drop it, all I was doing was pointing out you had missed the relevant bit. I don't think that really counts as sniping, and sniping was not intended.

This post is also supposed to be light-hearted, as long as read in that way .

one of the comments on that link points to a excellent post made here.

http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/message.jspa?messageID=45407#45407

The projected profits for opt-OUT were 80 million, for someone like BT thats only a small % of overall profits, to me thats desperation for money/greed whatever you want to call it as the gain would be short term only since BT are getting a ton of bad publicity for it which they stubbornly holding out on. However with it now looking very likely it will be an opt-IN assuming if it even launches since it is illegal in its current form, then any profits are going to only be a fraction of that projected 80 million, so my question is which idiot at BT thinks its a good idea to stick with phorm for the sake of a few million pounds profit. The amount of customers they will lose over it will lose them more money in the long term.

Its also pointed out on that url by someone that BT have lost focus, they are only after price driven customers and have no motivation anymore to focus on quality of service, everything possible is offshored and money is always king. Again greed. Whether or not BT ever go back to focusing on quality I have no idea but is a very sad thing a company which is supposed to be a pride and joy for british people is just out for short term gains. BT's shareholders are even rapidly turning against the idea of phorm, the shareholders are whom the exec's supposedbly listen to, but when questions got asked at the last AGM, they were evaded and fobbed off.

Edited by Chrysalis (Wed 12-Nov-08 08:18:05)

The survey of Airlines reported by Watchdog on Monday had BA right at the top of the most popular airlines - in spite of recent troubles with T5 etc. Now they are far from the cheapest and their aim is be the biggest and offer a high quality of service.

BT used to be in that place in the ISP sector. I can't understand why they didn't see an opportunity to take the moral high ground and let the likes of Virgin and Sky take the sleazy route to prop up their finances.

Home Office encouragement/request to perfect the technology so it can be used for the anti-terrorist database?

Coupled with reassurance about future deregulation of BT wrt competition and anti-competitive practices and what such regulation will be concerning FTTx? Which is where the real money is.

How technically competent are BT?

Judge for yourselves - it appears the Plusnet user has has again been redirected to the Webwise page.

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,71225.0.html