Plusnet mislead and lies about market 2/3

Excuse me plusnet, my mum is retirement OAP, she was charged as market 2 but after I checked samknows and kitz sites here: http://www.samknows.com/broadband/broadband_checker and http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php both saying Market 3 except plusnet site is quite outdated and not updated correctly still on old market 2: http://usertools.plus.net/exchanges/

As my mum shouldn't be charged at £17.99 for market 2 (the sites showing market 3 as of December 2010) and I think Plusnet is lied and conned by refuse to updated latest OFCOM ruled of changing new market 3 come into force from December 2010.

I will going to complaint to OFCOM about this plusnet breaking their promise of lower prices for market 3 but they ain't doing this.

Might consider asking my mum to cancel plusnet if they refuse to put my mum into market 3 pricing.

My mother exchange is Cuckoo Oak curently show market 3 after ofcom updated Dec 2010.

Here is proof by ofcom here: WNCKO on page 63 number 60: There is 100% proof by ofcom for WNCKO on page 60 here stated market 3: http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultati...

Edited by adslmax (Mon 03-Jan-11 16:58:48)

It seems strange that on the Samknows site it says:

Market 3
Four or more 'principal' operators provide broadband services at this exchange. Service in this area has been deregulated

but the exchange you quote only has TalkTalk enabled for LLU but it shows Market 3

I'm not sure if this will help!

This was raised in the Plusnet forums and the response was from Mand was

It's worth bearing in mind that these changes haven't been confirmed yet, it's just at consultation stage at the moment.

I can't see us doing anything until it's all confirmed, if that happens.

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,9150...

It already been confirmed by ofcom. For god's sake plusnet should have updated it by now! More likely they pure greedy taking my mother extra money!

Perhaps you should read the actual document before accusing Plusnet
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultati...

Decisions to revoke SMP services conditions

15. Ofcom revokes all the SMP services conditions set out at Annex 1 of the 2008
Notification, and any subsequent modifications to the SMP services conditions set out at
Annex 1 of the 2008 Notification, in accordance with paragraphs 16 and 17 below.

16. Insofar as the SMP services conditions set out at Annex 1 of the 2008 Notification relate
to the markets set out in paragraph 6 above, those SMP services conditions shall be
revoked by this Notification when it takes effect under sections 48(1) and 79(4) of the
Act, unless otherwise stated in paragraph 17 of this Notification.

17. Insofar as Condition EA1 of Schedule 1 to Annex 1 of the 2008 Notification or Condition
EA7 of Schedule 2 to Annex 1 of the 2008 Notification apply to exchanges that for the
purposes of this market review fall within Market 3 and insofar as these Conditions relate
to the provision of Network Access to a Third Party which is an existing wholesale
broadband access customer of BT, these Conditions shall be revoked by this Notification
on the day which is one year from the date on which it takes effect under sections 48(1)
and 79(4) of the Act. The relevant exchanges are set out in Appendix 4 to this
Notification. For the avoidance of doubt Conditions EA2, EA3, EA4, EA5 and EA6 of
Schedule 1 to Annex 1 of the 2008 Notification and Conditions EA8, EA9, EA10, EA11
and EA12 of Schedule 2 to Annex 1 of the 2008 Notification, insofar as they relate to
Market 3, shall be revoked by this Notification when it takes effect under sections 48(1)
and 79(4) of the Act.

The part in bold indicates that the removal of conditions which allow BT Wholesale to reduce the costs comes into effect 12 months after the date it is announced or perhaps a little later since I haven't checked the wording of the Act

So, is that mean my mother had to wait until December 2011 for the market 3 pricing ? Why wait for 12 months, it totally stupid.

Presumably the intention is to give the LLU operators time to adapt since the change affects other things as well as the prices BTw can charge.

Well my exchange is Market 3 according to Kitz's site, but not according to Plusnet.

My exchange on Sam Knows says there's no LLU. BT are there (obviously). Sky too iirc, and Virgin too.

That's three.

The question for me is, is Kitz's site accurate in my case? Until I establish that, I can hardly progress further.

Edited by camieabz (Mon 03-Jan-11 18:59:42)

Remember one thing: Plusnet's reduced charge for Market 3 reflects the reduced charge they have to pay BT Wholesale for the Market 3 exchanges.

As it is still at the consultation stage, and BT Wholesale haven't yet reduced the charges that the ISPs have to pay them, why the hell do you expect Plusnet to reduce the charge to their customers?

If it say market 3, plusnet MUST reduce the price, it got nothing to do with bt wholesale charge! Plusnet is no way get away with it by ripped the customers off by extra £5 more on the market 3 exchange lists.

Under the proposals it will be Market 3 at some time in the future, but it isn't yet.

You might find this statement from Plusnet useful:

In reference to community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,91506.msg766445.html#msg76...:

It's worth bearing in mind that these changes haven't been confirmed yet, it's just at consultation stage at the moment.

I can't see us doing anything until it's all confirmed, if that happens.

Regards, Mand Beckett
Plusnet Support Team

Until the Exchange is CONFIRMED as Market 3, it would be against OFCOM Rules for PlusNet to discount customers on that Exchange.

This is OFCOMs way of keeping prices high in exchanges which have few or no LLU suppliers to make it appear to be profitable for LLU suppliers to invest there. They are assumed to be too stupid to realise that the BT Price can be discounted as soon as they invest and take the Exchange to Market 3.

In reply to a post by jelv:

You might find this statement from Plusnet useful:

In reference to community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,91506.msg766445.html#msg76...:

It's worth bearing in mind that these changes haven't been confirmed yet, it's just at consultation stage at the moment.

I can't see us doing anything until it's all confirmed, if that happens.

Regards, Mand Beckett
Plusnet Support Team

smell fishy plusnet! what a cheek!

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Here is proof by ofcom here: WNCKO on page 63 number 60: There is 100% proof by ofcom for WNCKO on page 60 here stated market 3: http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultati...

Interesting. Based on that article, my exchange is Market 3, but I'm on a market 2 price. Hmmm.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

In reply to a post by jelv:

You might find this statement from Plusnet useful:

In reference to community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,91506.msg766445.html#msg76...:

It's worth bearing in mind that these changes haven't been confirmed yet, it's just at consultation stage at the moment.

I can't see us doing anything until it's all confirmed, if that happens.

Regards, Mand Beckett
Plusnet Support Team

smell fishy plusnet! what a cheek!

And your logical explanation for calling it fishy is what exasctly?

Price charged to Plusnet by Openreach and Wholesale for service on a non-Market 3 = £A. Price on Market 3 £B. Plusnet are paying £A so charge customers accordingly.

Until the M3 status is confirmed, at which point (or soon after) the cost to Plusnet will be lowered to £B, Plusnet continue to pay, so charge, the higher price.

Seems like the only way not to go out of business to me.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Interesting. Based on that article, my exchange is Market 3, but I'm on a market 2 price. Hmmm.

Based on that article your exchange probably will be Market 3, but AIUI it isn't at present. I answered a similar query about this stuff over on ISPr the other day. There's also an ongoing thread on our own forum as pointed out by a few others here.

Even if the new classification has come into effect, we're billed by Wholesale in arrears I think, so it probably wouldn't be until later this month that we made the changes anyway.

We'll relay any further details back to this thread as we have them...

Everybody seems keen to beat up Plusnet for not lowering the prices on the exchanges which are going to be Market 3.

Could someone point me to another ISP who has already started charging the lower prices on these exchanges please.

In reply to a post by jelv:

Everybody seems keen to beat up Plusnet for not lowering the prices on the exchanges which are going to be Market 3.

Could someone point me to another ISP who has already started charging the lower prices on these exchanges please.

On the contrary, I was waiting patiently for a Plusnet rep's response. Not interested in other ISPs personally. My posting history tends to reflect this.

Also, another thing to note.... If your not on a month by month term..... eg... have a 12 month, or 24 month contract, such as a business customer, then the price may not go down.

The reason I post this... I was on a market 1 exchange. I moved premises, to a market 3 exchage. I contacted plusnet, but because my contract was started on a market 1 exchange... I had to pay that until my contract was up. Once my contract was up, I had to re-contract to get the market 3 exchange prices.

Whether this is the case when you dont move (ie, the exchange your currently on changes from market 2 to 3, for example) I am not sure.

In my own experience, a new premises (house), creates a new contract. Based on the Plusnet 'account details' comments anyway.

In reply to a post by jelv:

Everybody seems keen to beat up Plusnet for not lowering the prices on the exchanges which are going to be Market 3.

Could someone point me to another ISP who has already started charging the lower prices on these exchanges please.

I don't think that quite says what you meant it too. I think you meant to say "on any market 3 exchanges", not "these exchanges" - i.e. the proposed ones.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

In my own experience, a new premises (house), creates a new contract. Based on the Plusnet 'account details' comments anyway.

Mine was a business connection.... which was still under contract. As far as im aware, and I may be wrong.... your contract covers office moves, thus not taking out a new contract....

Although I'm leaving it at that, as I think I'm steering the the discussion off-topic

I just found other isp for my mother and they had confirmed they do have lower price than plusnet for exchange market 3 and they stated that my mother exchange and BTWholesale had updated Market 3 but plusnet doesn't tell us honest! Hmmmm. My mother just give a notice in and leaving plusnet as she say no way to pay £17.99 a month for exchange market 3.

I think plusnet won't change or updated until end of this year or next year. They are far behind many things.

Who is the other ISP?

I am pleased to say that my own local exchange is moving to M3. When I looked into this some time ago we have more operators than you could shake the proverbial stick at but still not M3. Apparently there were less than 10,000 homes to trigger the change!

It is all very confusing but we all (incl the OP's mother) have quite a variety of choice nowadays. Personally I would not be too bothered if streaming media was charged as an extra too but I am sure everyone else would be up in arms!

Meldrew

In reply to a post by brightd:

Who is the other ISP?

Did you hear that noise that was a Tumbleweed (going downhills*)

(*see adslmax + entanet forums)

In reply to a post by reserved:

It seems strange that on the Samknows site it says:

Market 3
Four or more 'principal' operators provide broadband services at this exchange. Service in this area has been deregulated

But the exchange you quote only has TalkTalk enabled for LLU but it shows Market 3

BT Wholesale counts as one. Cuckoo Oak is listed in this post for C & W installation, though there has been a lot of discussion and changes to that list, plus a Part 2 thread.

Perhaps Sky are there now, or Be. There are now a few pointers to samknows no longer being updated .

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 05-Jan-11 09:09:00)

In reply to a post by Highlander_343:

In reply to a post by brightd:

Who is the other ISP?

Did you hear that noise that was a Tumbleweed (going downhills*)

(*see adslmax + entanet forums)

Also my comment to someone in this post, triggered by this one from adslmax.

So he is now taking his mother down the same maniacal route as he used to follow with monthly moves in and out of Entanet resellers.

In reply to a post by bpullen:

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Interesting. Based on that article, my exchange is Market 3, but I'm on a market 2 price. Hmmm.

Based on that article your exchange probably will be Market 3, but AIUI it isn't at present. I answered a similar query about this stuff over on ISPr the other day. There's also an ongoing thread on our own forum as pointed out by a few others here.

Even if the new classification has come into effect, we're billed by Wholesale in arrears I think, so it probably wouldn't be until later this month that we made the changes anyway.

We'll relay any further details back to this thread as we have them...

Bob, just a question for information please .

I know your post wasn't directly to the OP, but it now seems his mother is paying £17.99pm. So I assume this is a legacy package?

If that's the case, is there Market 3 pricing available on that one anyway, or if and when Cuckoo Oak becomes M3 would she need to change to a current one to get the reduction?

I'm wondering how his million pound lawsuit against BT is going.

Should change his username to WalterMitty

In reply to a post by kasg:

I'm wondering how his million pound lawsuit against BT is going.

I didn't bother to sue BT as I know I stand no chance to win!

In reply to a post by paddyclark:

Should change his username to WalterMitty

Sound a good name!

In reply to a post by adslmax:

I didn't bother to sue BT as I know I stand no chance to win!

Ahhhhh.

A self-recognising loser.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by bpullen:

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Interesting. Based on that article, my exchange is Market 3, but I'm on a market 2 price. Hmmm.

Based on that article your exchange probably will be Market 3, but AIUI it isn't at present. I answered a similar query about this stuff over on ISPr the other day. There's also an ongoing thread on our own forum as pointed out by a few others here.

Even if the new classification has come into effect, we're billed by Wholesale in arrears I think, so it probably wouldn't be until later this month that we made the changes anyway.

We'll relay any further details back to this thread as we have them...

Bob, just a question for information please .

I know your post wasn't directly to the OP, but it now seems his mother is paying £17.99pm. So I assume this is a legacy package?

If that's the case, is there Market 3 pricing available on that one anyway, or if and when Cuckoo Oak becomes M3 would she need to change to a current one to get the reduction?

Residential market discounts are only applied to our 'Family' range of products, which includes Value, Extra and Pro.

Ta! That's what I expected really .

Now would be a good time to strike up the PR machine and make someone happy.

In reply to a post by bpullen:

We'll relay any further details back to this thread as we have them...

Evening all!

Firstly, apologies for the delay.

Secondly have a read of my post here over on our own Community forums.

To summarise...

We've updated our signup engine and the Usertools exchange checker to reflect the new market classifications. This means cheaper pricing for the 349 exchanges that have moved from Market 1/2 to 3, and more expensive pricing for the 7 exchanges that have moved the other way.

The revised pricing is only applicable at the moment to new signups and those changing account type. From June though, we'll be applying the cheaper pricing to all existing customers' accounts too (where they're on a market-led product).

If you can't wait until June then have a read of the FAQ here that tells you how you can jump the queue.

Hope that serves as welcome news to some people. Let me know if you've any questions.

Rgds,

This means cheaper pricing for the 349 exchanges that have moved from Market 1/2 to 3.........The revised pricing is only applicable at the moment to new signups and those changing account type. From June though, we'll be applying the cheaper pricing to all existing customers' accounts too (where they're on a market-led product)............If you can't wait until June then have a read of the FAQ here that tells you how you can jump the queue.

Those that read the forums can benefit from the price changes by jumping the queue. Those that don't continue to pay the higher charge until June. Will existing customers on the 349 cheaper exchanges be informed of the changes and the option to jump the queue?

In short yes, but we'll be staggering this as it requires manual effort.

Any chance of a refund for those that pay more for longer because they don't read forums?

In reply to a post by bpullen:

The revised pricing is only applicable at the moment to new signups and those changing account type. From June though, we'll be applying the cheaper pricing to all existing customers' accounts too (where they're on a market-led product).

If you can't wait until June then have a read of the FAQ here that tells you how you can jump the queue.

Hi.

Also quoting from the link:

Why aren�t the prices for existing customers changing immediately?

There are various reasons for this, mostly surrounding the complexity of our billing systems and the fact that our development schedule is filled many months in advance.

In addition, many of our special offers over the last 12 months have been budgeted against receiving subscription fees in Market 1/2. We did consider changing prices for existing customers at the end of the initial 12 months, but this was too complicated to implement and communicate effectively. Therefore we made the decision to make a cut-off point and apply the pricing to all affected customers from that point.

If you�re an existing customer you can change product now and get the new prices. If you�re a Value customer whose exchange has changed from Market 2 to 3 you can upgrade to Extra, save £1.50 on your monthly bill and get 6 times the usage allowance!

I accept that billing systems can be complex, and development schedules etc...will I get my discounts back-dated in June, given that:

a) Your complex billing system and development schedules are not my problem
b) A patient customer who is willing to wait five months for £25 is better than no customer at all to the tune of Broadband and phone contracts of more than £30 per month (and other Plusnet customers in my locale).

Either BT are pulling the strings on this one, and Plusnet are not talking, or Plusnet are making not only the profit (which they, as every company is entitled to), but are pocketing the difference in a five-six month period. So which is it? Are Plusnet being forced to keep the Market prices up by BT's wholesale activities on these exchanges, or can they move all the users on all the exchanges at once?

With regards to the "complex billing system", perhaps if I counter with:

"Due to the complex banking system, your payment will not arrive until next month. This would have been sooner, but I have development plans of my own." - and how long would you as a company tolerate any customer with such a message? You would not. Blaming your business model/practices for keeping customers' costs higher than they should be is unacceptable.

Equally, giving people the option to upgrade to 'jump the queue' is telling me two things:

1) You really think people are that thick?

2) Your pricing model can not / will not cope with the downgrading of prices for the affected customers, and Plusnet are being forced to encourage people onto other packages to ensure the expected/budgeted revenues are realised. If this is the case, have you considered the potential problem which lies ahead for all those people upgrading to bigger packages? Less capacity.

The fact remains that Plusnet (BT?) have been keeping market 2 or 3 customers on markets 1 or 2. In short, the competition now exists, and unless Plusnet are willing to recognise this, they may very well find it out the hard way.

In reply to a post by wingco1:

Any chance of a refund for those that pay more for longer because they don't read forums?

We're planning emails to affected customers. All customers are aware that all communication from us will be by email so there should be no-one who doesn't read them.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

I accept that billing systems can be complex, and development schedules etc...will I get my discounts back-dated in June

We won't be backdating payments as part of the process, though you can raise a ticket rather than waiting 'til June.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Are Plusnet being forced to keep the Market prices up by BT's wholesale activities on these exchanges, or can they move all the users on all the exchanges at once?

We're not being forced to do anything. The reasons for the delay have been explained.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Blaming your business model/practices for keeping customers' costs higher than they should be is unacceptable.

We're not blaming anything. The situation is as it is. Changing a customers market area is not a simple task as lots of other processes and account functions are related to this area. Whilst I appreciate that's not any customers fault, by the same token I'm not going to advocate a process that could cause billing problems for customers. We will do this, when we've had chance to build and test a robust process. In the meantime there's a workaround for customers who want to change now.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Equally, giving people the option to upgrade to 'jump the queue' is telling me two things:

1) You really think people are that thick?

2) Your pricing model can not / will not cope with the downgrading of prices for the affected customers, and Plusnet are being forced to encourage people onto other packages to ensure the expected/budgeted revenues are realised. If this is the case, have you considered the potential problem which lies ahead for all those people upgrading to bigger packages? Less capacity.

The fact remains that Plusnet (BT?) have been keeping market 2 or 3 customers on markets 1 or 2. In short, the competition now exists, and unless Plusnet are willing to recognise this, they may very well find it out the hard way.

1) No. We will be emailing these customers to explain the situation. The automated process will be built, and we'll change people as and when otherwise (I'm sure you'd agree changing all these prices manually is not a good allocation of resource rather than fixing customer issues?

2) If we couldn't cope with the change we wouldn't be doing it at all. No other BT Wholesale ISP passes cost savings on in this way. I don't see anyone slating their business model even though *all* their market 3 customers are paying more?

Why shouldn't we, as a business, offer customers a better product for less than their current one though? Whilst still giving them chance to take the lower price without changing of course.

As an aside, we're well ahead of capacity planning at the moment.

In reply to a post by mand_beckett:

Why shouldn't we, as a business, offer customers a better product for less than their current one though? Whilst still giving them chance to take the lower price without changing of course.

I was going to check the pricing structures for Pro/Extra/Value at the various markets, but the website is down.

Hmmm.

Suffice it to say, there was no such offer prior to this situation. I'm not a having a pick at you personally (or Bob). The bearer of news gets the response. I don't see it as a discount in five months. I see it as money I and others never should have paid. I've been paying £20+ for 6 Meg, only for others to be on faster connections, for less outlay.That's the bottom line. There's no ADSL2+ or fibre on my horizon, and yet I'm paying as much, if not more for a slower service. I don't object to having to have a slower service if physics says it has to be, but there's no reason for it to be more expensive.

It beggars belief that a company specialising in data communications has a system which is not fit for purpose. Did the designer assume that everyone would be market 1, 2, 3 forever? Was there never the consideration that there might be a market 4? You never know!

I do appreciate that the package add-ons system might be complicated, but not the billing system. There should always be the option to make emergency changes (VAT increases perhaps?). You should at least be able to make changes on a global, per-exchange, per-market, per-package and per-customer basis. I'm thinking..."Why hasn't this stuff been thought of?".

Exchange    - Code - Market - Price

Smithsville - smit -   1    - £10.00
Jonesville  - jone -   2    - £ 5.00
Happyland   - Happ -   3    - £ 0.00

Very, very easy...or do BT handle that stuff?

£30. Hardly a fortune, but it's my hardly a fortune! (and I've been paying it for a while now)

We do offer upsells from time to time, but obviously before the markets were rearranged you couldn't get the next product up for less than your current one.

Bear in mind that the wholesale prices are only just changing, so it's not like we've been aware of this for all that long.

I understand there's a feeling of unfairness around market areas generally (why should x get a better price than y for the same service?) but the price we offer is a representation of our costs. We're the only provider that offers market pricing on a BTw product so I guess we invite that questioning.

Yes we knew that there was a possibility for market areas to change, but this is the first time it's happened, and when we first launched these products it was easier, but modifications to our systems since has made this more difficult. We are planning to make it easier to change for the future when we make the changes. I'd rathr we wait and do it right than cause billing problems for the affected customers, and the associated problems that would cause.

As I've said, you can raise a ticket and get the cheaper price point now if you're in an affected area.

In reply to a post by mand_beckett:

As I've said, you can raise a ticket and get the cheaper price point now if you're in an affected area.

Will PN be making that clear to the customers who don't read this BB or just hoping that no-one notices and therefore snaffle 5 months of extra subs?

That particular question was avoided

How is 'we will be emailing affected customers' avoidance of the question?

To make it even clearer:

Yes, we will be making customers aware of the changes, and how to get the cheaper price (via account change or ticket). We will do this via email over the coming weeks.

The question was, "Any chance of a refund for those that pay more for longer because they don't read forums"?

We'll be emailing them so that's not an issue (forum goers will get a few days headstart is all).

I'll take that as a no.

In reply to a post by wingco1:

I'll take that as a no.

In reply to a post by mand_beckett:

In reply to a post by camieabz:

I accept that billing systems can be complex, and development schedules etc...will I get my discounts back-dated in June

We won't be backdating payments as part of the process, though you can raise a ticket rather than waiting 'til June.

Or you could try reading?

Rob

We won't be backdating payments as part of the process, though you can raise a ticket rather than waiting 'til June.

In which case my question regarding a refund is valid.

Have the other ISPs who charge different rates depending on which market the exchange is in already implemented the market changes and have they backdated (and given refunds where appropriate) to when the designations were changed?

While I don't care for non-Plusnet customers taking Plusnet to task when it hardly matters to them, I don't much care for the 'if other ISPs don't do it, why should we?' argument.

What's more, it all gets away from the point. There are some customers who have been paying more, simply because the competition does not exist. Now that it does, BT is forced to bow to the market, rather than give the same service for the same price in the first place.

In other words, these exchanges are now magically affordable at a market 3 price, whereas before they were magically unaffordable at market 3 prices. When Plusnet have been pressed on why there's a delay, we are told that it's their 'complex billing system' and developments etc. Shafted, in other words. The market 1 & 2 customers have been funding this complex system. Why? They have been funding others' less expensive, but faster broadband. Why? I've seen my 21CN date (originally Q4 2009 iirc) come and go. No fibre. No ADSL2+. Why? No competition on the exchange.

It's criminal that BT can get away with this, and it's worse that people with a fast connection at £30 tell others that they (the city folk) will be subsidising them. Hardly. Not when the price is 1.25 to 2 times more in markets 1 & 2. Some folks' speeds are such that many customers couldn't download to the 60GB limit in a month, and pay more due to the market.

I have no doubt that the people at Plusnet do a great job when things are working. My concerns are that when they don't work, systems and strategies are blamed. ???

If my plumber blames his car for my excessive bill, do I pay? The difference is that ISPs are semi-utility companies now, and as such, these 'complex systems' do not benefit disgruntled customers, who may want to leave out of principle, but by and large are satisfied with their service.

I guess I'll keep getting shafted for now, but I'll bump a few threads here and there, reminding Plusnet of outstanding issues I have (such as a ticket sitting at 73.5 hrs without a response), high pings on almost all PN's hops on a trace and so on. A fiver a month is nothing to most people, but it's not BT's or Plusnet's fiver.

The thing that bother me the most? The PN staff are very helpful when they know what's happening, but quite the opposite otherwise. I've the BTw - Plusnet - BTw tennis ball. I've had a home move messed up (corrected and appreciated after the fact). CGI servers were atrocious, so I will never rely on Plusnet for any forum-based service. Ok, so PN's packages are competitive, but it's not worth it if all the trimmings are failing to work. If I blamed a complex billing system and told my customers it's their cost...how long would my business last?

Oh and...Plusnet...when are you going to increase the Pro usage allowance to 30GB? The average website has quintupled since 2003 (according to a 2009 report), and has grown more since. How can a premium service really exist on 20GB usage? My usage is generally web only and said usage is 20+ GB. If you want me to upgrade (per the market re-classification), then make it viable.

You are targetting the wrong people. I believe OFCOM enforce higher BT prices on Market 1/2 exchanges to ensure that LLU providers could have a chance of making a profit if they were to unbundle. This requirement is removed on Market 3 to allow BT the chance to compete better with LLU in those places.

So, blame OFCOM for the disparity. It is also OFCOM that define what the markets are. BT are just acting as a sensible private company working within a legislative framework that only targets them (not even Virgin who have a significant market share of their own).

In reply to a post by camieabz:

In other words, these exchanges are now magically affordable at a market 3 price, whereas before they were magically unaffordable at market 3 prices. When Plusnet have been pressed on why there's a delay, we are told that it's their 'complex billing system' and developments etc. Shafted, in other words. The market 1 & 2 customers have been funding this complex system. Why? They have been funding others' less expensive, but faster broadband. Why? I've seen my 21CN date (originally Q4 2009 iirc) come and go. No fibre. No ADSL2+. Why? No competition on the exchange.

I think shafted is a little harsh. We have introduced the new pricing for new signups and account changes immediately (that's a fairly simple change in our system), We're working on automatically changing affected customers pricing, and have offered a manual process to get the new price immediately. We've advertised that fact here and on Community and will be emailing all affected customers to highlight this.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

It's criminal that BT can get away with this, and it's worse that people with a fast connection at £30 tell others that they (the city folk) will be subsidising them. Hardly. Not when the price is 1.25 to 2 times more in markets 1 & 2. Some folks' speeds are such that many customers couldn't download to the 60GB limit in a month, and pay more due to the market.

Market 1 and 2 customers with Plusnet don't subsidise everyone else. We pay higher wholesale costs on those lines, so charge more.

It may interest you to know there's another Ofcom consultation regarding stimulating investment in Market 1 by lowering the wholesale price that can be charged for 20CN lines (in theory encouraging 21CN progress). Whether that's the right solution I'm not convinced.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

I have no doubt that the people at Plusnet do a great job when things are working. My concerns are that when they don't work, systems and strategies are blamed. ???

This is not about blame. We've given you the reasons behind the delay in changing pricing automatically.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

I guess I'll keep getting shafted for now, but I'll bump a few threads here and there, reminding Plusnet of outstanding issues I have (such as a ticket sitting at 73.5 hrs without a response), high pings on almost all PN's hops on a trace and so on.

If you want to give me a ticket number I'll happily take a look for you.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Oh and...Plusnet...when are you going to increase the Pro usage allowance to 30GB? The average website has quintupled since 2003 (according to a 2009 report), and has grown more since. How can a premium service really exist on 20GB usage? My usage is generally web only and said usage is 20+ GB. If you want me to upgrade (per the market re-classification), then make it viable.

If your usage is mainly web, maybe Extra would be worth a look as performance for web traffic will be the same.

In reply to a post by ian72:

You are targetting the wrong people. I believe OFCOM enforce higher BT prices on Market 1/2 exchanges to ensure that LLU providers could have a chance of making a profit if they were to unbundle. This requirement is removed on Market 3 to allow BT the chance to compete better with LLU in those places.

So, blame OFCOM for the disparity. It is also OFCOM that define what the markets are. BT are just acting as a sensible private company working within a legislative framework that only targets them (not even Virgin who have a significant market share of their own).

Yep, this is all under Ofcom control.

Obviously we choose to apply market based pricing to our products.

Mand, I'm referring primarily to BT and Ofcom when talking about 'shafting'. My concerns with Plusnet are that the delay is due to 'complex billing systems' etc. The point has been made. There's nothing more to add to that.

Market 1 and 2 customers with Plusnet don't subsidise everyone else. We pay higher wholesale costs on those lines, so charge more.

So the extra price gets passed to BT, which is what I was saying (see start of the bit you quoted back). While FTTx will certainly require more investment at Market 2 & 3 exchanges, existing physical mediums cost nothing if already there, so costs are at the exchange side, as with Market 3, so there has never really been a good reason for it, and yet the people who live in rural and semi-rural areas get higher prices, for slower services typically. LLU is not going to happen in most of these places it would seem, so they will wait and wait and wait for FTTx only to find that the "costs will not be viable". BT roll out Infinity at £20, and yet Market 1 customers pay the same for 0.5 Meg. It is criminal.


Ticket: #39236146

I wasn't expecting immediate action on it, but hoped for a response with an approximate date.

If your usage is mainly web, maybe Extra would be worth a look as performance for web traffic will be the same.

Yes, it's mainly web, but it's not all web mand. My driving is mainly in 30mph areas, but it would be nice to think the car will do 70mph if I want to use the motorway.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Mand, I'm referring primarily to BT and Ofcom when talking about 'shafting'. My concerns with Plusnet are that the delay is due to 'complex billing systems' etc. The point has been made. There's nothing more to add to that.

Apologies for the confusion there.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Ticket: #39236146

I wasn't expecting immediate action on it, but hoped for a response with an approximate date.

The ticket path states to allow a week for a response to these tickets, as it's a manual process.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

Yes, it's mainly web, but it's not all web mand. My driving is mainly in 30mph areas, but it would be nice to think the car will do 70mph if I want to use the motorway.

Point taken, but if you use the motorway once a month for 10 minutes, is it worth paying the extra for the faster car?

Not if the car will require extra fuel (added GB) to make the journey (30GB).

Analogies are so silly.

Driving faster uses more fuel, no?

Yes, anologies are silly. But sometimes it's hard to stop.

In reply to a post by mand_beckett:

The ticket path states to allow a week for a response to these tickets, as it's a manual process.

Ten days and counting.

I would have to think that if £5 a month breaks the bank then give it or something else up.

Edited by deleted (Thu 03-Feb-11 17:08:04)

Frankly, if someone asks me my finanical situation, I say "Mind your own business".

That aside, if it's not worth bothering about, then you have a different attitude to money, debt, bills and finance in general. Send me a fiver every month, and I'll be happy about Plusnet taking it. No? Why not, it's only a fiver.

Just to clarify:

In reply to a post by camieabz:

A fiver a month is nothing to most people, but it's not BT's or Plusnet's fiver.

It's a principle issue, as opposed to a finance issue.

There's an old saying - look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.

Possibly more true than ever these days

Post deleted by billford

In reply to a post by nadger:

There's an old saying - look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.

Allowing for inflation, perhaps it should be - look after the quids, and the tenners will look after themselves.

In those days there were 240 pennies in a pound

I think the basic point is that if people don't look after their own money then they can't expect anyone else to do it for them.

That means they should ensure that they get all the discounts they are entitled to and that they are on the best possible tariffs.

By all means push, politely, any provider to conform.

The classic one for me at Plusnet was when people used to ring up and complain we had taken money and they didn't have itand were getting charged failed DD fees. OR that they didn't have any and couldn't pay for weeks.

AS I always said their money management was their problem and no one elses.

Very true.

I'm a firm believer in shopping around for new contracts on a regular basis. ISPs tend to be the exception, since you can tell the difference between one and another (not so easy with gas and electric suppliers...so tend to just look for the most attractive package for us).

The classic one for me at Plusnet was when people used to ring up and complain we had taken money

Ex staff?

In reply to a post by wingco1:

The classic one for me at Plusnet was when people used to ring up and complain we had taken money

Ex staff?

Yes. and very proud to have worked for plusnet. I was a customer before and I am a customer now. Their ethos really is something to be proud of. You can't get a more upfront open and honest company!