The difference between TalkTalk and BeThere for broadband...

If anyone is interested in seeing how TalkTalk compare with another ISP (bethere.co.uk) for the exact same ADSL2+ broadband service on the same line then i made a comparison of speeds, pings and customer service before i switched to TalkTalk.


In short:

BeThere.co.uk
Download speed: 950 KB/s
Upload speed: 135 kB/s
Pings to gaming servers: 11ms
P2P speeds: Always full speed
Customer Service: Great


Talktalk
Download speed: 690 KB/s
Upload speed: 98 kB/s
Pings to gaming servers: 34ms
P2P speeds: Sometimes came to a complete stop at peak times due to throttling
Customer Service: Terrible (more on that later)


As you can see that is quite a difference for the same product and shows the difference between a good ISP and a bad one.

My many years with BeThere i did not have to contact customer service much, but when i did my issues were always resolved fast and efficiently. With TalkTalk it is a different story so lets start at the beginning.
I ordered (through topcashback) line rental, essentials package and fibre with talktalk, There was a half price essentials offer on at the time but on the online checkout the half price offer was not showing on the total price, so i used the live chat to speak to a sales adviser who told me that was normal and the offer would be applied to my welcome package and bill. I also asked about p2p throttling on the fibre broadband and was told that fibre is not affected as much as the ADSL and so would only drop by around 2Mb at most and i was estimated to get 60Mb. Sounds good right? well no as i later find out that i am being charged the full amount and also talktalk do throttle fibre just as much as ADSL. So either the sales "advisers" lie to you to get the sale or they dont have a clue how things work.

With TalkTalk you can't just sign up to fibre, if you are a new customer you have to first get TalkTalk line rental and ADSL before they start an order for fibre. Although you can order fibre at the same time as your main order and they will automatically start the fibre order once you are connected with phone and ADSL....or so they tell you.
I get sent my welcome pack with fibre modem and had my phone and ADSL activated with TalkTalk, however when i log into my members area i couldn't see anything about my fibre install date. I had heard from other people that TalkTalk customer service was bad but I decided to give them a ring to find out when my fibre would go live as it is just a simple question i thought. After 5 times calling TalkTalk and over an hour with the phone, being put on hold, getting hung up on, passed to different people, the end result was that basically they had no idea what was going on, couldn't tell me when or if i was getting fibre and couldn't place another order for fibre. TalkTalk just seemed to only care about asking me the pointless security questions at the start of every call to "confirm" i was the account holder....anyway the last guy i spoke to said maybe just wait until tomorrow and then try ordering fibre again is the only thing he could think of. Luckily that did work the next day, although it was a good thing i did try to enquire when my fibre would start as if i didn't it would never have.

Having vowed never to ring talktalk customer service again i thought i would give the talktalk members forum a try to see if they can sort out my other issues like ADSL speed and ping and being over charged for the service as i had heard from other people that the talktalk members forum was much better than ringing them. Well it took a few days for my login to the forum to be activated before i could post and then it took a further 8 days to respond to ADSL speed issues by which time it was pointless as i had just been activated on the fibre. My billing problems got answered much quicker and after having to PM more info confirming security questions i got told they will look into the billing issues and they will post back when they have updates for me. Well it's been over a month now and i have not heard anything back and i am still being over charged.

Although they were happy to ring me up recently to try to get me to switch to talktalk for my mobile phone service too.....no chance.

I also did not get any cashback through topcashback as talktalk did not track it so i am having to try and file cashback claims for that which i am sure TalkTalk will try and get out of paying.

If you want good ADSL broadband and a company that can get a simple online order right with good customer service then TalkTalk is not the company you want to go with.


If you want to see more detailed info on the speeds of Bethere and talktalk ADSL then see below:


BeThere:

http://www.speedtest.net/result/2392818473.png
http://www.pingtest.net/result/74431589.png

Text

1 23 45 67 89 1011 1213 1415 1617 1819 2021 2223 2425 2627 2829 3031 3233 3435 3637 3839 4041 4243 4445 4647 4849 5051 5253 5455

Pinging bbc.co.uk [212.58.241.131] with 32 bytes of data: Reply from 212.58.241.131: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=244Reply from 212.58.241.131: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=244 Reply from 212.58.241.131: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=244Reply from 212.58.241.131: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=244  Ping statistics for 212.58.241.131:     Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:     Minimum = 11ms, Maximum = 11ms, Average = 11ms     Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.241.131]over a maximum of 30 hops:    1     8 ms    99 ms    99 ms  192.168.1.254   2     *        *        *     Request timed out.  3     *        *        7 ms  10.1.3.234   4     *        *        *     Request timed out.  5    18 ms    12 ms    12 ms  10.1.4.249   6    13 ms    12 ms    12 ms  bbc-linx.pr01.rbsov.bbc.co.uk [195.66.236.103]  7     *        *        *     Request timed out.   8    12 ms    12 ms    11 ms  ae1.er01.rbsov.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.46]  9    14 ms    13 ms    13 ms  132.185.255.60  10    12 ms    12 ms    12 ms  212.58.241.131      Pinging 85.236.100.76 with 32 bytes of data: Reply from 85.236.100.76: bytes=32 time=12ms TTL=121Reply from 85.236.100.76: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=121 Reply from 85.236.100.76: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=121Reply from 85.236.100.76: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=121  Ping statistics for 85.236.100.76:     Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:     Minimum = 11ms, Maximum = 12ms, Average = 11ms     Tracing route to lon039.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.100.76]over a maximum of 30 hops:    1    89 ms    99 ms    99 ms  192.168.1.254   2     *        *        *     Request timed out.  3     *        7 ms     6 ms  10.1.3.234   4     *        *       13 ms  10.1.3.214  5     *        *        *     Request timed out.   6    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  195.66.236.224  7    12 ms    12 ms    12 ms  lon039.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.100.76]  Trace complete.

Talktalk:

http://www.speedtest.net/result/2425270475.png
http://www.pingtest.net/result/75304625.png

Text

1 23 45 67 89 1011 1213 1415 1617 1819 2021 2223 2425 2627 2829 3031 3233 3435 3637 3839 4041 4243 4445 4647 4849 5051 5253 5455 5657 5859 6061 6263 6465

Pinging bbc.co.uk [212.58.241.131] with 32 bytes of data: Reply from 212.58.241.131: bytes=32 time=26ms TTL=243Reply from 212.58.241.131: bytes=32 time=26ms TTL=243 Reply from 212.58.241.131: bytes=32 time=27ms TTL=243Reply from 212.58.241.131: bytes=32 time=27ms TTL=243  Ping statistics for 212.58.241.131:     Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:     Minimum = 26ms, Maximum = 27ms, Average = 26ms      Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.241.131] over a maximum of 30 hops:    1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.1  2    21 ms    19 ms    20 ms  host-78-148-224-1.as13285.net [78.148.224.1]   3    21 ms    23 ms    21 ms  host-78-151-225-101.static.as13285.net [78.151.225.101]   4    21 ms    20 ms    22 ms  host-78-151-225-108.static.as13285.net [78.151.225.108]   5    26 ms    27 ms    27 ms  xe-11-1-0-rt001.the.as13285.net [62.24.240.6]  6    26 ms    27 ms    27 ms  host-78-144-1-61.as13285.net [78.144.1.61]   7    26 ms    27 ms    27 ms  host-78-144-0-147.as13285.net [78.144.0.147]  8    26 ms    35 ms    26 ms  host-78-144-3-47.as13285.net [78.144.3.47]   9     *        *        *     Request timed out. 10    26 ms    27 ms    26 ms  ae1.er01.rbsov.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.46]  11    27 ms    26 ms    31 ms  132.185.255.60 12    27 ms    26 ms    27 ms  212.58.241.131  Trace complete.     Pinging 85.236.100.76 with 32 bytes of data: Reply from 85.236.100.76: bytes=32 time=34ms TTL=119Reply from 85.236.100.76: bytes=32 time=34ms TTL=119 Reply from 85.236.100.76: bytes=32 time=35ms TTL=119Reply from 85.236.100.76: bytes=32 time=34ms TTL=119  Ping statistics for 85.236.100.76:     Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:     Minimum = 34ms, Maximum = 35ms, Average = 34ms     Tracing route to lon039.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.100.76]over a maximum of 30 hops:    1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.1   2    21 ms    20 ms    20 ms  host-78-148-224-1.as13285.net [78.148.224.1]  3    21 ms    21 ms    21 ms  host-78-151-225-101.static.as13285.net [78.151.2 25.101]  4    21 ms    21 ms    21 ms  host-78-151-225-104.static.as13285.net [78.151.2 25.104]  5    28 ms    28 ms    27 ms  xe-11-1-0-rt001.sov.as13285.net [62.24.240.14]   6    28 ms    29 ms    36 ms  host-78-144-1-65.as13285.net [78.144.1.65]  7    29 ms    27 ms    28 ms  host-78-144-1-141.as13285.net [78.144.1.141]   8    34 ms    35 ms    34 ms  195.66.236.224  9    35 ms    34 ms    34 ms  lon039.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.100.76]  Trace complete.

Put simply , TalkTalk are a budget broadband provider , that's right , BUDGET ! . you have come from a premium broadband provider ( PREMIUM ) and expect premium customer services from a budget provider .

See where you went wrong ?

As for your initial slow ADSL connection before you got connected to FTTC ..... Im going to have to stop myself here and ask " why the hell " where you coursing such a commotion about the speed of a connection that was only while you waited for your FTTC ? chances are you had there ridiculously high SNR margin that they connect all new customers with , Oh ! and not forgetting your Be* line was on a Fast Path profile and all TalkTalk lines are interleaved by default , both of which can be fixed with a Email .

guess will will never know as your now on the FTTC product .

Every so often we get somebody that posts a load of " they wont jump through hoops" (like my last ISP ) and it is always with amusement i read their posts .

So again i say , You have come to a Budget ISP with Budget Support , if you don't like , or cant deal with budget support " DON'T SIGN UP TO A BUDGET ISP "

And sorry i didn't read all of your post for obvious reasons , with out the router stats for the TalkTalk ADSL and Be* ADSL connections most of your post is pointless . And yes TalkTalk sales lie to get you to signed up .

Edited by deleted (Tue 19-Feb-13 00:55:08)

Also never agree a contract at a price that is not what you thought was the offered price and expect for it to be reduced later solely on the say-so of an undocumented telephone conversation, whether it is a budget or a premium provider

It wasn't as interesting as you thought it should be without any router stats.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Tue 19-Feb-13 01:48:11)

unremarkably i have only just realized you have been with the same ISP for like , forever .

Forever is a very long time , forever is being in a 18 month contract when your not happy with your ISP and the product you have chosen .

Unfortunately , this is where i think the OP is finding them self , but those 18 months( or how ever long the contracts are this week) will fly by , if the OP can avoid using the phone to deal with talkTalk and lowers their expectations from Premium to Budget .

I have been here my self , going from UKonline to TalkTalk but i would still be with TalkTalk and saving money , if it was not for the fact i now have to suffer a Market 1 exchange and all the nastiness that brings .

Yes i will agree phone support is not that good
Yes their forums are much better but there is delay
But for phone line can not complain for a budget as mentioned
I never called the support but only 2 times at their forums in the 4 years been with them

I am 2.400 meters far from exchange at TalkTalk LLU


http://www.speedtest.net/result/2518523206.png

http://www.pingtest.net/result/77348702.png

Pinging bbc.co.uk [212.58.241.131] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 212.58.241.131: bytes=32 time=6ms TTL=244
Reply from 212.58.241.131: bytes=32 time=6ms TTL=244
Reply from 212.58.241.131: bytes=32 time=6ms TTL=244
Reply from 212.58.241.131: bytes=32 time=6ms TTL=244

Ping statistics for 212.58.241.131:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 6ms, Maximum = 6ms, Average = 6ms

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.241.131]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.1.1
2 5 ms 4 ms 5 ms host-78-145-16-1.as13285.net [78.145.16.1]
3 5 ms 5 ms 6 ms host-78-151-230-9.as13285.net [78.151.230.9]
4 6 ms 6 ms 6 ms host-78-151-230-28.as13285.net [78.151.230.28]
5 6 ms 11 ms 6 ms host-78-144-1-40.as13285.net [78.144.1.40]
6 36 ms 6 ms 6 ms host-78-144-0-137.as13285.net [78.144.0.137]
7 7 ms 6 ms 6 ms bbc-pp-sov.as13285.net [78.144.5.1]
8 * * * Request timed out.
9 6 ms 7 ms 7 ms ae1.er01.rbsov.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.46]
10 10 ms 10 ms 10 ms 132.185.255.60
11 7 ms 6 ms 6 ms virtual-vip.thdo.bbc.co.uk [212.58.241.131]

Trace complete.

Pinging 85.236.100.76 with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 85.236.100.76: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=120
Reply from 85.236.100.76: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=120
Reply from 85.236.100.76: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=120
Reply from 85.236.100.76: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=120

Ping statistics for 85.236.100.76:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 13ms, Maximum = 13ms, Average = 13ms

Tracing route to lon039.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.100.76]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.1.1
2 5 ms 5 ms 4 ms host-78-145-16-1.as13285.net [78.145.16.1]
3 5 ms 38 ms 5 ms host-78-151-230-9.as13285.net [78.151.230.9]
4 6 ms 6 ms 6 ms host-78-151-230-24.as13285.net [78.151.230.24]
5 7 ms 6 ms 6 ms host-78-144-1-36.as13285.net [78.144.1.36]
6 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms host-78-144-0-137.as13285.net [78.144.0.137]
7 14 ms 13 ms 14 ms 195.66.236.224
8 14 ms 14 ms 13 ms lon039.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.100.76]

Trace complete.

Edited by deleted (Tue 19-Feb-13 04:54:12)

Orange & TT are always to be found at the foot of any lists of ISP reviews. I have stayed with Orange for so long because I have always got good speeds and reliability, being fortunate in having a line close to ADSL2+ maxima, and most of the time I don't need its abysmal support. On the few occasions that things went wrong, I formally write to them and eventually get them to bend to my will (I am patient ). I'm sure others could do so with TT.

Actually that's a very good point about knowing how to deal with budget support , in TalkTalk case , its one thing at a time do not confuse them by asking for multiple things to be done at once and try at all costs not to move to much outside there automated systems.

I have successfully sorted all problems i have had and many other peoples problems , just using the forum and Email but its not instant or even with in the hour or day , that's how budget support works , it does work to a fashion but slowly . Fast fault resolutions at a budget provider , really is pie in the sky .

gonna have to call you on this one woweebert.

Be There are not a premium ISP, they are slightly higher priced than the budget ones, but offer(ed?) a best-they-can-do connection.
When I moved to my curent house they offered line and broadband for £22.50 (middle rate product mwith unlimited allowance) but decided to stick with TT as I didn't want the downtime. The TT product is £27 though it includes some free calls.

Also, unless you have proof of Lexi lying, you have no right to attack him/her for merely posting their experience. For sure, explain why you think the differences arose, I also would have liked to see the router stats, but there's no need to defend customer services failing as a by product of a budget service. It would be better to have no customer service and save more money, at least the OP wouldn't be waiting for the promised outcome.

In reply to a post by Myth:

Be There are not a premium ISP, they are slightly higher priced than the budget ones, but offer(ed?) a best-they-can-do connection.
When I moved to my curent house they offered line and broadband for £22.50 (middle rate product mwith unlimited allowance) but decided to stick with TT as I didn't want the downtime. The TT product is £27 though it includes some free calls.

BE can definitely be considered a premium ISP, relative to TalkTalk. With a price comparison of line rental + evening calls + unlimited broadband, BE works out at £33 whereas TalkTalk works out at £21.45, i.e. TalkTalk is 35% cheaper than BE, and that's before considering extras on BE such as caller display (£2.04) and voicemail (£2.04), which TalkTalk give at no extra cost.

one step up from budget isn't premium.

For example, IDnet's unlimited download offering costs £107 a month. Now that is premium, and so is the service as I have had it in 2008.

A Ford Fiesta isn't premium just because a TaTa is half the price. If it was, where would that leave Bentley?

To recap, I consider Be to be a standard service. This is reflected in the prices you quoted, though my personal quotes were fairly matched.

On a side note, I don't get caller display, and 1571 stuff works, but I am definitely on full metal path. Does this sound normal?

In reply to a post by Myth:

one step up from budget isn't premium.

True, but they are quite a few steps up. The mainstream ADSL2+ ISPs are Talktalk, Sky, Plusnet, BT, O2 and BE, with BE being the most expensive and TalkTalk the cheapest. I would consider IDnet "niche", and far from mainstream, but I accept BE can look cheap if we were to include niche.

On a side note, I don't get caller display, and 1571 stuff works, but I am definitely on full metal path. Does this sound normal?

On TalkTalk MPF? If you aren't getting it, either they haven't enabled it on your line or your equipment isn't compatible.

Edited by Oliver341 (Tue 19-Feb-13 14:49:45)

@woweebert

The fact is that with both company's current phone line, calls and broadband package (with half price for 12 month offers) the price of talktalk is £18.20 and Bethere is £19.50 a month, wow a £1.30 price difference between budget and premium. So no there really is no excuse as to why talktalk are so bad in comparison when paying nearly the same amount.

Maybe you are happy with poorly performing company's that you class as "BUDGET" but i have used many other "budget" company's in the past, for example budget airlines and they have all managed to not mess my order up, get me on the plane and on time and sort out any questions i have had when speaking to them. And the price difference between a budget flight and 1st class flight premium flight is actually a big difference unlike broadband.

Amazon is one of the cheapest places i buy things from...does that make them budget and rubbish?....nope i've found them to be fast and have amazing customer service

see where you went wrong? maybe you just need to set your standards a bit higher and realise that even if something is budget or cheaper than something else that does not mean it has to be terrible in comparison

As for the ADSL connection, well who says i caused a "commotion". The ADSL speed issues i mentioned was me simply asking for my profile to be made the same as what i had on BeThere in which i provided them the speed difference and connection details, SNR etc. And guess what the main reason was that i did that?...it was for TT's benefit so that i could better compare TT and BeThere as fairly as possible. The fact that it took days for them to activate me on the forum so i could post the request and then a further 8 days for them to even respond is not my fault and just highlights the difference in customer service, As with BeThere you can make changes to your ADSL profile in seconds yourself from your members area, or call them, or just send a support ticket. Quite a difference. I remember reading about one guy who tried to get TT to change his profile, he just kept getting passed to different people of which none of them knew what he was talking about and instead kept wanting to change his package lol.
so no it seems that profile issues with TT can't just be "fixed with a Email" as you claim.

Also i waited well after the 10 day ADSL training period before i ran the speed tests on TT so that i wouldn't have a "ridiculously high SNR margin that they connect all new customers with".

So as you can see this is nothing about "they wont jump through hoops like my last ISP" nonsense you mentioned, i was going to do this difference topic no matter how TT turned out....if they were faster and had better customer service than BeThere than this same thread would be here parsing TT. This is simply as fair a comparison as i could get between both of them and my truthful experience of it, as it is something i wish more people would do to help people make more informed choices of if they should switch ISP or not and the differences between them.

definitions

well, probably agree to disagree, I still say you wouldn't call a Ford premium just because they are the higher end of the popular makes, and even though Bentley are niche, I still think premium also describes them.

What I forgot to say to the OP is regarding the reselling of the BT FTTC product.

Is it right to say that TalkTalk's MSANs are now the equipment of choice, or at least better than Be's DSLAMs when it comes to linking up the new BT FTTC products to the backhaul?
I think Andrew said that to me not so long back

Be has a network capacity topology upgrade underway to cope growing use and fttc market and very likely that their Dslam is older model without fibre input capability.

Talktalk starting a little later with their rollout made some better or lucky choices

I am also of the opinion that no matter how budget you feel you are, employing people wherever they are in the world and however cheap, is a financial drain if they don't do any work.

Having a job as a customer service rep and not giving any service to the customer is plain ridiculous, they should be fired. Let the phones ring longer.

The problem arises with stats. Which stats the bosses want to see, and how that changes practices to manipulate stats AT THE DETRIMENT OF THE CUSTOMER.

I actually got fired for not manipulating a certain stat which would have cost the company money if I had done it. Needless to say I took them to court, and I won.

If you get through to customer services and ask for something, that should be the last chasing you need to do. From that point on the company needs to do something. If the company doesn't have the staff or the systems to action what you need, don't pick up the phone. At least the customer knows they still have to make first contact

In reply to a post by Myth:

well, probably agree to disagree, I still say you wouldn't call a Ford premium just because they are the higher end of the popular makes, and even though Bentley are niche, I still think premium also describes them.

I think you should consider Audi, Mercedes and BMW before you get to Bentley.

@Myth

I completely agree with you, I'm sure TT could be making more money if people didn't have to ring them multiple times for hours to try and get something done.

If they just trained them better to be able to answer a call and with better systems to sort it out right away it would mean less calls coming in which means they need to hire less people, which saves TT money in the long run and it means the customers are much happier.

win win?

Edited by Leki (Tue 19-Feb-13 15:22:53)

Out of interest, why did you move from BE to TalkTalk?

thats what I mean about stats. You can bet that the stats show the Indian call centre(s) are doing a fantastic job at answering quickly and having a high % of resolved calls.

what is means to us is that they answer quickly, put us on hold, answer another, come back to us, ask us things we might not know and therefore can hang up, say ring back tomorrow, say ok we'll call you back etc etc, and then they hang up and log it as resolved. Their company then gets a big bonus and TT think they are doing a great job outsourcing to this company.

@Oliver

for fibre....i'm close to my cab so knew i could get good speeds on that, i wish BE had fibre but i'm planning on moving back to BE for fibre if they offer it and when my contact with TT is over.

Oh right, it was not possible to migrate straight to TalkTalk fibre, so you have a short stint on ADSL?

@Oliver

That is correct you have to use TT ADSL before they start the fibre process, not sure why this is as other company's for example SKY can put you directly onto fibre.

This was back in 2010 so things may have changed since, but on the day i went live with TT LLU, i put a forum request to be put on fastpath & have my SNR lowered to 6db (aka '24FSNR6' profile) and 2 hrs later it was all done and dusted. This 10 day training period is largely a myth because my speeds have been the same since day 1. Even the TT OCEs acknowledge this

@baby_frogmella

well things must have changed since 2010 then, maybe a lot more people have learned that the TT forum is better than the useless call center and so the forum are more busy, guess they need to hire more people that can sort issues out

yeah my speeds from day one with TT were pretty much the same as they were 2 weeks later, but i still waited until doing the tests until after the 10 days just to make sure and to be fair to TT.

Presumably then you could request fastpath on TalkTalk to bring the ping times down?

What are your noise margins like?

Edited by Oliver341 (Tue 19-Feb-13 16:03:51)

well i'm now on TT fibre so can't now but i did also ask to be changed to fastpath on there forum at the time.

Thing is when i was on interleaved with BeThere i know my gaming pings never went into the 20's on the UK servers i played on where as interleaved with TT it's in the 30's. So still quite a difference.

In reply to a post by Leki:

Thing is when i was on interleaved with BeThere i know my gaming pings never went into the 20's on the UK servers i played on where as interleaved with TT it's in the 30's. So still quite a difference.

Yeah, most likely TalkTalk use a higher level of interleaving to reduce errors/disconnections and hence reduce calls to support.

Im on a market 1 exchange so know very well what premium is ,it seems to me thous that have a choice have completely lost sight of what premium is .

on moving to a market 1 exchange my broadband costs went from £25 a month to £55 ,yeah that's premium but Oh wait wheres my Bentley .

I pay more than double and receive half the service i once had ,and trust me when i say BT retail support is no better than what TalkTalk offer .

So this little spat on what is budget and what is premium only goes to confirm that those that have a choice completely don't get it . TalkTalk is most definitely a budget provider compared to Be* and to argue its not , is just being ridiculous .

Edited by deleted (Wed 20-Feb-13 11:16:02)

get out of here ! to be fair to TalkTalk , as in look at my Be* line on a 3db FastPath profile compared to a TalkTalk line on a default 12db interleaved profile .

Apples and Oranges ?

In reply to a post by Leki:

@baby_frogmella

well things must have changed since 2010 then, maybe a lot more people have learned that the TT forum is better than the useless call center and so the forum are more busy, guess they need to hire more people that can sort issues out

yeah my speeds from day one with TT were pretty much the same as they were 2 weeks later, but i still waited until doing the tests until after the 10 days just to make sure and to be fair to TT.

Mate, you'll be fine once TT lower your noise margin & switch off interleaving....just be patient because it seems the forums are overloaded these days yet the number of TT OCEs (all uk based) have remained the same. I did once suggest on the TT forums if they'd consider scrapping their phone support and go to forum support only (ala Giff Gaff) but was re-assured by an OCE that their phone support was going to be improved...obviously not

Officially TT don't offer a static ip address on their residential services but if you ask nicely on the forums, then you may be lucky enough to get one free of charge like i did...this removes any P2P throttling..wink wink nudge nudge

Edited by deleted (Wed 20-Feb-13 08:43:32)

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

I did once suggest on the TT forums if they'd consider scrapping their phone support and go to forum support only (ala Giff Gaff)

I know lots of less technical people on TalkTalk who wouldn't know where to start with posting to web forums. That's assuming their TalkTalk connection was working well enough to connect to the web forum in the first place to raise a fault report.

People that don't know how to post up on a forum are very unlikely to change from TalkTalk default line profile , that is so over the top , that the only thing that could break it was actually a break in the line or a failure at the exchange or router. So its more than possible the phone wont work either .

In reply to a post by woweebert:

People that don't know how to post up on a forum are very unlikely to change from TalkTalk default line profile , that is so over the top ,

I think baby_frogmella was suggesting TalkTalk's phone support could be scrapped altogether, not just for line profile changes.

that the only thing that could break it was actually a break in the line or a failure at the exchange or router. So its more than possible the phone wont work either .

So then the customer would call TalkTalk on their mobile.

In reply to a post by woweebert:

...that the only thing that could break it was actually a break in the line or a failure at the exchange or router. So its more than possible the phone wont work either .

Actually on several occasions I've lost the internet (PPP link down) but still been sync'd to the exchange (DSL connected) and the phone still worked. This allowed me to call my ISP (Plusnet on one occasion) to check what was going on. We ran through various tests and found the problem was not related to my router - fortunately the next morning the PPP link was up again

In reply to a post by woweebert:

on moving to a market 1 exchange my broadband costs went from £25 a month to £55 ,yeah that's premium but Oh wait wheres my Bentley .

You are in what is termed a captive market, where market forces and the idea of price indicating level of service don't apply

In reply to a post by woweebert:

I pay more than double and receive half the service i once had ,and trust me when i say BT retail support is no better than what TalkTalk offer.

I haven't commented on BT support, I know their phoneline support is as bad as can be.

In reply to a post by woweebert:

. TalkTalk is most definitely a budget provider compared to Be* and to argue its not , is just being ridiculous .

I haven't argued that TT isn't budget, I have argued that Be isn't premium, I maintain that it is a standard level of expectations. That 99% of ISPs (based on customer volume) don't meet this standard doesn't change it as an expectation. Be always met my expectations, Nildram did, tiscali didn't, IDnet exceeded, VBB was just bizarre (wireless beaming village to village!). So for me, Nildram and Be are standard, most are budget or substandard, and IDnet are premium. simples

In reply to a post by woweebert:

get out of here ! to be fair to TalkTalk , as in look at my Be* line on a 3db FastPath profile compared to a TalkTalk line on a default 12db interleaved profile .

Apples and Oranges ?

What are you talking about? If TT changed my profile as i asked then it they would both be on the same profile. Apples to apples and fair to TT.

And anyway as you said yourself, the majority of customers who sign up with TalkTalk wont even know what a profile is let alone know how to change it so that means that for the majority of users if they sign up with BeThere then they will have faster and better internet than they would have with TT. Fact, as TT will put you on worse profiles by default to save money on support calls etc.

This is only fair in your mind as its your thread , all i see is a line that's been optimised by yourself through your Be* control panel versus a line with no optimisation .

Thing is TalkTalk do have a line optimisation Bot that does visit every so often and reduces people SNR all the way down to 6db if their lines are good enough , which i do believe is the same as Be* default profile as is the inclusion of interleaving on Be* lines , so again something you optimised your self .

If you think what you have posted here is a fair comparison , i say " you have no comprehension of what fair is ", its misleading at best and not posting the router stats with the speed and ping tests was down right manipulation to support your own bias and completely makes this thread invalid IMHO .

And to right a Be* connection should be better than a TalkTalk connection , have you seen how much more they charge , which brings us full circle to " your expectations of a budget provider are unrealistic ".

@woweebert

Maybe you should actually try reading my second post in this thread. If you did you would maybe understand that i did try to get TT to put me on the same profile as Be. which would mean that both TT and BE would be on the same SNR and datapath which would be "fair".

As i already posted before, they charge pretty much the same amount which which brings us full circle to "even if something is budget or cheaper than something else that does not mean it has to be terrible in comparison".

Edited by Leki (Sat 23-Feb-13 15:19:26)

Every thing that needed to be said , has been said

/thread closed

@woweebert
It's just pity a lot of what you did say was made up responses to things i didn't say or straw man arguments
But then again you even said yourself "sorry i didn't read all of your post for obvious reasons" so that is understandable i guess.

Oh please

In reply to a post by Leki:

a lot of what you did say was made up responses to things i didn't say or straw man arguments

it had very little to do with what you posted it was what you did not post that i took real issue with .but the thread is here for all to read , even the bit where you tell me that Be*

charge pretty much the same amount

is why im not reading all of what you post , as its nonsense .

@woweebert

I clearly stated above how it is pretty much the same amount, here is will post it again to help you:

"The fact is that with both company's current phone line, calls and broadband package (with half price for 12 month offers) the price of talktalk is £18.20 and Bethere is £19.50 a month, wow a £1.30 price difference between budget and premium. So no there really is no excuse as to why talktalk are so bad in comparison when paying nearly the same amount."

So yes that is there in the thread for everyone to read and check up on, so it is clearly not nonsense.

In reply to a post by Leki:

the price of talktalk is £18.20 and Bethere is £19.50 a month, wow a £1.30 price difference between budget and premium

You're comparing BE's 10 Mbps capped product to TalkTalk's product with uncapped speeds.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

You're comparing BE's 10 Mbps capped product to TalkTalk's product with uncapped speeds.

but woweebert would still class it as "premium" as its from BE, It is actually a 12Mbps capped product and is not throttled like talktalk.

In my case since on my line i cant get over 10Mbps on adsl, choosing that option with BE would give me better faster internet and much better customer service than going with TT. Also since the average adsl speed in UK homes is well below the 12Mbps cap that would also be the case for the majority of people going for adsl.

In reply to a post by Leki:

but woweebert would still class it as "premium" as its from BE, It is actually a 12Mbps capped product and is not throttled like talktalk.

BE website states it's 10 Mbps.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

BE website states it's 10 Mbps.

That's just Be conforming to ASA, as you well know!

It means that at least 10% users get >= 10 Meg, but they can't all be on 10 exactly. So some of them are faster.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

It means that at least 10% users get >= 10 Meg, but they can't all be on 10 exactly. So some of them are faster.

Yes indeed they are, but not when they're on a package capped at 10 Mbps, which BE Value is...

Explain this then (taken from Be Order Form):

* BE Value £17.00 Our basic package, good for value seekers or those who can't get more than 12meg.
o BE Unlimited £22.00 Our most popular package offering up to 24meg.
o BE Pro £27.00 The perfect upgrade if you work from home or if you like to game, as our incredible upload speeds will get the job done fast.

The 10 Meg headline speed is simply obeying ASA.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Explain this then

I thought that if 10% of users could get 16 meg (allowing them to advertise it as such) then definitely 10% of users could get 12 meg, allowing them to advertise it without being ASA-reduced.

Edited by Oliver341 (Tue 05-Mar-13 01:19:19)

Apples and Oranges AGAIN and as somebody has already pointed out it is yet another unfair comparison by your self .

I might be so bold as to say , TalkTalk Essential is more comparable to Be* Pro than Be* Value but i wont , as i know Be* service is allot better than TalkTalk and that shows in what it costs .

But its not me trying to make the comparison .

Also im seeing holes in your arguments , you say you where connected on Be* Value but had access to the customer portal where you can change your lines profile , i was always under the impression this was only a feature for the more expensive Be* plans and not something you could do on Be* Value . I admit this may well of changed , as im not a Be* customer i would not know if it had changed .

But hay , i Have checked the Be* website .

Members on Be Pro and Be Unlimited can change to fastpath via the gaming mode setting in their member centre or by contacting our technical support via the ticketing system. Members on Be value cannot switch to fastpath.

Now we clearly sore stats for a line on a FastPath profile but here you say

In reply to a post by Leki:

In my case since on my line i cant get over 10Mbps on adsl, choosing that option with BE would give me better faster internet and much better customer service than going with TT. Also since the average adsl speed in UK homes is well below the 12Mbps cap that would also be the case for the majority of people going for adsl.

Is somebody telling fibs ? or is this as i have always said " a unfair comparison " as a Be* Unlimited line is allot more expensive and if that's the line you had with Be* that is the line and cost you should be comparing .

Edited by deleted (Tue 05-Mar-13 02:22:57)

After reading TBB front page this whole thread is even more pointless , as anybody advising any one to sign up with Be* on the news Sky have just brought them out .

Should be shot

The end of another good ISP

Edited by deleted (Tue 05-Mar-13 02:43:58)

@woweebert

The only holes you see in my arguments are in your imagination or ones you make up yourself as i have never said that i was connected on Be* Value.

what fibs? Let me try to simplify this for you. Lets pretend i sell my house and some average person moves in who wants a phone line, calls and internet like most people do. Since the line can only support upto 9Mbit if they went with Be Value they would only pay £1.30 more than TalkTalk and have better faster internet and much better customer service. Why? as even with BE on the standard profile and interleaved datapath, Be were still faster than TalkTalk.

Edited by Leki (Tue 05-Mar-13 03:00:16)

More Apples and Oranges! This whole thread reeks of their scent

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

if 10% of users could get 16 meg (allowing them to advertise it as such)

If that is referring to the advertised speed of Unlimited and Pro, then you cannot just extrapolate that to Value.

The Value user base is a different population and, by it very nature, is biased towards those with longer lines and therefore slower speeds.

You simply cannot advertise a product by employing the characteristics of a diff product. That would be dishonest, to say the least.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

You simply cannot advertise a product by employing the characteristics of a diff product.

I agree. But the ASA ruling isn't purely about the characteristics of the product, it's about the characteristics of the lines of the customers on that product (or as I previously thought, the characteristics of the customers' lines over the ISP as a whole, ruling isn't crystal clear on this, although BE seem to have interpreted in the former way).

Essentially, if an ISP with a service which can supply 24 meg only for some reason attracts people with lines that can handle 6 meg, the ISP will be forced to advertise it as 6 meg max, which just goes to show how silly (and in fact misleading to potential customers) this ruling is.