Credit Card

Plus net took my money and that was it , no email , username doesnt work but took £192 out of my Credit Card . I think It Should be rectified right away. the the bank and plusnet want me to wait and it will drop off. I don't want to go ahead with the deal now , I will stay with what I know ...

Backing out is part of the Distance Selling Regulations, but refunds are rarely immediate and the bank will generally only get involved if there was a genuine mistake, rather than you've now changed your mind.

So time to tell PlusNet to cancel the order completely and request the refund

No it's a genuine mistake thats why I want nothing further to do with them,,, they have no knwlege of my land line , username , email , post code etc Santandar said it can be rectified from plusnet's bank with a fax ..

Edited by deleted (Sun 06-Mar-16 11:05:33)

The only thing that happened was the credit card transaction of me giving them £192.87 . there was a fault and that is all I didn't change my mind

Edited by deleted (Sun 06-Mar-16 10:57:09)

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/phone-int...

Banks and Plusnet would not say it will "drop off". What did they say, that it will be credited soon? Which as has been said takes a while - it's just how credit card credits work.

The chap from Santander said that their bank"Plusnet's" can do this instantly by fax and gave me a ref number .. this is the first time I heard about it also..but he seemed to know what he was talking about

Edited by deleted (Sun 06-Mar-16 11:13:25)

Yes companies can refund or credit your bank account a lot quicker than they say that they are able to, It's all down to their own systems and how much they value their reputation ,as well as level of organisation within the company
I have had refunds from Amazon within a couple of days before now

Edited by tommy45 (Sun 06-Mar-16 18:22:50)

I can't see how anybody can comment on this at all. Have you signed up with PlusNet, presumably they haven't just got your card details and just taken money without your say so. What's the timeframe, did you sign up last weekend, last month, last year? I'm not a PlusNet 'fanboi' but I do believe in being fair.

In reply to a post by lennyuk:

The only thing that happened was the credit card transaction of me giving them £192.87 . there was a fault and that is all I didn't change my mind

You need to contact them and state you are cancelling, and request a refund.

they couldn't find me on their system .. they just took the money

Im not even on their system ,

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Banks and Plusnet would not say it will "drop off". What did they say, that it will be credited soon? Which as has been said takes a while - it's just how credit card credits work.

They may do. It could be a pre-auth, which if not completed, will "drop off" a few days later.

It will still appear as a pending transaction and those funds are held and cannot be used until it has. Some banks even show it on the statement for it to then vanish later.

Matt

Ah - thanks Matt. Something I didn't know. Possibly up to 30 days in this instance, but that seems to be down to the bank's policy not the merchant, Plusnet.

And there is nothing to be refunded.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 07-Mar-16 02:13:37)

In reply to a post by lennyuk:

they couldn't find me on their system .. they just took the money

I say again - it's impossible to make any judgement. You haven't given any relevant information at all.

Did you place an order with PlusNet? It is unclear if you aren't on the system because you have never had any business with them or because something went wrong when you tried to do business with them.

If it is the former then the bank should be able to sort this quickly as this could be a sign of attempted fraud/identity theft.

In reply to a post by ian72:

Did you place an order with PlusNet?

From the original post: "username doesnt work" - suggesting that there was a user name. All a bit of a mystery without an account of what actually happened.

I told u what happened . I applied online for plusnet and paid on my credit card. After I paid they had no information on me . so for what ever reason the application failed but took my money..

what info do u want . I gave the details to plusnet and they took the money but the application failed in that they don't have any details that I gave them . I don't know what happened .The application wasn't created after I gave them all my details and made a username.I paid a years linerental it took that money on my Credit Card . I got no email nothing from them when I spoke to them they could not find my name ,address fone number post code nothing ...so they told me that the money I paid should drop off or returned , Santander told me its pending and if it is taken then they will make a dispute about the credit card payment ......Regards ....

Yes exactly I placed and order and it failed. When I talk to them I don't exist to them nothing on their system .. only thing is they took my credit card money . They did tell me it should drop off or returned ,Santandar said to keep an eye on it if it moves from pending , then they will initiate a dispute with them .I was never with them ..and this has put me off the company .

A buyer has some protection in certain cases when using a credit card for purchases over 100 pounds:-

https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/ho...

Edited by Apprentice (Mon 07-Mar-16 12:59:40)

Please correct me if I haven't understood
You attempted to place an order with Pliusnet and as part of that you gave them your credit card details and they applied a pending charge to that card to ensure that it was a valid card and was within the credit limit
The order subsequently failed so the charge was never actually made and remains as pending as stated by Santander and should drop off after a predetermined time (the time is probably controlled by Santander)

No they took just under £200 for a years line rental and the router. But all the rest leading up to the payment never got through to plusnet . so I just want the credit card payment returned . they told me it' hasn't actually been taken out its in a pending state and should drop off . Santander said something similar to keep an eye on it if plus net actually take the money then it goes into dispute from santandar and me to plusnet . hopefully it wont get that far and just dissapear.

You are confusing things by saying they have taken the money. They haven't. What happens is when you start the payment transaction they put through a pending payment to hold the money (which confirms you have enough money to pay), then if that works they would start the processes to create the account and provide the service and then they would actually take the payment.

Something failed at the creation stage. So, as the order has failed no actual payment should ever be taken and the hold on the money will clear itself. PlusNet have actually taken no money from you at this point. It should just disappear from your card account with no action taken.

I don't think you understand what some of us were saying.

What Oldjim asks you to confirm but you just replied "No" to is exactly what happened according to what Plusnet, Santander and the link Uno gave say, that link explains the technical banking side and the wording used about "will drop off soon".

Did you read the link? The first sizeable paragraph of it is enough.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 07-Mar-16 13:21:59)

Thanks ian that explained it well and put my mind to rest . At Santander one of the banking staff who seemed to be clued up said that plusnet could if they wanted to, end the pending state right away. He said Plusnet's bank could send a fax to my bank to get the thing stopped immediately...... Lenny......

It shouldn't be an issue, unless you are nearing your credit limit and need to make a purchase?

No I'm not but , I could of and my bank told me If plusnets bank faxed my bank they could of stopped the holding state right away ..

Fax:
Dear Santander,

A person claiming to be a Mr xxxxxx keeps ringing us up complaining we have taken £192 on his Santander credit card and not provided anything. From what we have been gathered this is a pre-authorisation where the transaction did not complete online.

Because the transaction did not complete we know nothing else about this person but he tells us you have informed him you can cancel this pre-authorisation by fax from us, this one.

We trust you can verify the bona fides of this person and cancel the pre-authorisation ahead of your normal waiting period if genuine. We can do neither and nor can we verify the caller is Mr xxxxxx.

Yours faithfully, Plusnet Accounts.

Yeah, right.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 07-Mar-16 15:26:20)

It is kind of worrying that PlusNet can't even find an audit record of having put the pre-auth on the account - surely there payment process would have that...

It will be when you submit the credit card and value for "payment", handled entirely within the website with a call to the relevant verifier - the Verified by Visa or equivalent Mastercard one.

It won't go into the Plusnet order processing system until the end of the web ordering system. If that didn't complete, as apparently here, then yes - but they would also have all the posters other details on file.

It isn't a failure of the Plusnet ordering system as such, just the website order-taking.

Why are u taking the [censored] out of someone else's misery ?

No they had nothing about me on file , the order failed . The plusnet help could not find me by any means dob,postcode , landline number, address etc. It might be a failure of the website. But I would rather pay a bit more and stay where I am . Thanks everyone for replying ...In retrospect I lost a good deal , but my connection is ok ..

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-Mar-16 17:55:48)

Because whoever at Santander is telling you Plusnet can sort it with a fax doesn't understand the situation. Which I have just explained and you read and replied to after making this comment.

It was them I was getting at, not you, but at the same time pointing out the difficulty they would have in writing such a fax.

As for misery, what's that all about?

You know the money hasn't actually been taken, just quarantined, and will be freed within 8-30 days of it happening. A release date only Santander know and haven't told you.

You also say that it doesn't cause you any problems having that money tied up.

That doesn't sound like misery. Misery is what the Syrian refugees in transit feel.

After entering your credit card details and it doing the pre-authorisation, you are then asked for your bank details to set up a direct debit. Did you do that, or did you think it wasn't needed once they had your credit card?

Nope , it could of been that , I didn't want a dd anyway..

If you didn't enter the d/d details, which are compulsory, then the order didn't complete because you didn't finish it and didn't place it.

The whole thing explained.

The order stopped immediately after the credit card payment was reserved at Santander because you stopped filling it in. Which is why Plusnet don't know anything about you - the online data collection of your details, which is all the website does, never got submitted to the order system.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

You know the money hasn't actually been taken, just quarantined, and will be freed within 8-30 days of it happening. A release date only Santander know and haven't told you.

No it should not take 8-30 days. It ought to drop off in 3 days max. in this situation, but Santander should be able to confirm exactly. I'm not sure if the number of days is governed by Banking Rules, but I suggest lennyuk phones the FCA and ask them.

Nor should it be a case of waiting any excessive period, this sort of thing reduces the available spend that the account holder has.

I was in the same boat with a company not that long ago.

What people fail to realise is that when you pay by credit/debit card for any item and that little box appears (verified by visa etc), once you enter the correct password/number, money in your account gets reserved to pay the amount. Regardless whether the transaction goes through or not.

Yes, it does drop off (seem to remember it took mine 5 days or so from the date of the (failed) transaction) but in the mean time, that money becomes untouchable. In my case I had nigh on £1400 on hold. And then you get into a right merry-go -round between the various parties involved. If Plusnet don't have any records of you, it's because the system broke down at the transaction stage.

Of course, you don't realise what is happening until things start bouncing. It's how I found out. I got an insufficient funds notice when I went to pay a bill. Looked at my overall balance and that was correct, looked at the available balance and it was [censored]!

Whether this is just a Santander thing or general fault in the banking system I couldn't tell you. All I know is in my case it took 8 days for all 4 failed transactions to fall and for the money to become active again for my use.

As for Plusnet refunding it, they won't do. Simply because the money hasn't left your account. It's still there, in limbo land.

Edited by 69bertie (Mon 07-Mar-16 19:51:13)

This was exactly what the Santandar chap told me ..he said he was surprised because of all the publicity from Plusnet . He said plusnet can just send a fax and stop the whole waiting thng..

no it said that It can be done later and if that stopped the application why did it take me to the payment window ?

What payment screen window?

You said that after it went through the credit card check that reserved the money, the screen then went to the Direct Debit one which you didn't fill in.

Because you didn't continue by entering your direct debit details you did not submit the order. Which is why Plusnet have no record of anything.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 07-Mar-16 20:42:27)

In reply to a post by lennyuk:

This was exactly what the Santandar chap told me ..he said he was surprised because of all the publicity from Plusnet . He said plusnet can just send a fax and stop the whole waiting thng..

What publicity from Plusnet? Is there something you haven't told us?

In reply to a post by ChrisAO:

No it should not take 8-30 days. It ought to drop off in 3 days max.

I was quoting:-

In the case of debit cards, authorization holds can fall off the account, thus rendering the balance available again, anywhere from 1 to 8 business days after the transaction date depending on the bank's policy. In the case of credit cards, holds may last as long as 30 days, depending on the issuing bank

from the link Uno gave. Note the difference between debit and credit card wait times.

Robert , you are not reading the posts and have turned around the sequence of what happened , your looking for a fight so im not gonna reply to u anymore ....in fact stay the [censored] out of my face cause im not in the mood for your [censored] ..

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-Mar-16 20:58:12)

In the case of credit cards, asking for a larger credit limit is a way of addressing the issue. I had to do that some time ago, when I found what hotels and car hire companies do when they ask you for your card when you check in, or collect a car.

I'm blessed if I can see the problem here. Things will right themselves in a few days without any further action. "Storm" and "Teacup" are two words that spring to mind.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Misery is what the Syrian refugees in transit feel.

and how does a comment like that help or got anything to do with a forum like this ?
out of interest

In reply to a post by ste211270:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Misery is what the Syrian refugees in transit feel.

and how does a comment like that help or got anything to do with a forum like this ?
out of interest

[chuckle]
Because this post is spot on the button. There is nothing to cause "misery". Explained in the rest of the post preceding that statement.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 07-Mar-16 22:11:53)

In reply to a post by lennyuk:

Robert , you are not reading the posts and have turned around the sequence of what happened , your looking for a fight so im not gonna reply to u anymore ....in fact stay the [censored] out of my face cause im not in the mood for your [censored] ..

Charming.

All I'm trying to do is establish what caused the problem, but as another poster has just in effect said - "What problem?"

As for not reading the posts:-

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

After entering your credit card details and it doing the pre-authorisation, you are then asked for your bank details to set up a direct debit. Did you do that, or did you think it wasn't needed once they had your credit card?

In reply to a post by lennyuk:

Nope , it could of been that , I didn't want a dd anyway..

Which can only mean you didn't enter the direct debit details.

But what did you do next? Because as far as I know once you enter the d/d details that's the end of things and the website submits the order to the main system. What did you do instead?

I suggest you just stopped at that point. I'm not aware of any "Payment window" that follows the two you went through as those sort out the payments.

If you didn't go past the d/d details entry screen, you didn't place an order.

Sorry, I didn't read Uno's link, but as that is wikipedia and the article talks of $$ it may be inaccurate as far as European transactions are concerned. I still suggest lennyuk rings the FCA and asks them, they should be able to tell him exactly.

I think also the article will be where an order is cancelled for some reason before the debit is actually sent through. This can be a couple of days later as I often see particularly from petrol stations and small shops.

In this particular case there was no order in the Plusnet system. I'm fairly sure the OP stopped at the d/d screen and assumed his apparent credit card payment was sufficient. That he came out of the order entry somehow, too early.

Because of that Plusnet didn't get an order to process, so naturally haven't taken the money. Equally, neither can they cancel the pre-authorisation because they have no details of it. As I pointed out flippantly in my pseudo-fax.

The fax method I expect would work if they cancelled an order whilst processing it and before putting through the actual debit. I doubt that a fax would actually be needed - the system would have the pre-auth number and just send an automatic cancellation of it.

Out of interest, where would a username that exists but doesn't work come into that sequence? Surely a prospective customer wouldn't be allocated / choose a BB & email username until his order was accepted? The online form(s) is just an order which doesn't become a binding contract until PN has accepted it.

It is largely correct.

We've used BMS (Barclaycard Merchant Services) and Streamline (now WorldPay) and both stated recommended time frames but nothing set in stone for Visa/Mastercard. Amex however recommend 4 days but do state it can be longer.

Matt

You create your account username and password during signup on Plusnet. It is probably that one he is meaning. But even those are sitting in the website, waiting as you surmise as field entries in what is after all just a multi-page form that gets sent to the main order system in one lump when the customer finally clicks Submit or whatever button it is.

I'm 95% sure he simply never took that final step, as he didn't want to set up a direct debit. The flaw in the system is that the pre-auth required for the initial payment has already been created by the Credit Card company's checking system and if the order isn't submitted then the merchant doesn't even know the person had gone through the that, so the pre-auth sits there waiting to expire. Timespan at the CC company's discretion.

If the order is submitted and accepted then at some stage the actual payment will be taken. If rejected presumably the pre-auth would be cancelled automatically by the order system.

The only allocated username/password is the broadband login. That username is constructed in a very simple way from the account username, account username@plusdsl.net, and is notified in the Welcome pack that is sent. IIRC the two passwords are the same.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 08-Mar-16 10:13:13)

The username doesn't exist , nothing exists about me . And the direct debt part said it is not necessary at the moment I can continue and if I want I can add the DD details some other time .In a way I lost a good deal but after that happened I didn't want to chance with their internet. At the moment I have a solid connection and this put me off .. I did make a user name , gave them my land line number etc....

You haven't said what you did after reaching the direct debit screen and not entering the details. I accept it says you can add them later, but what did you do instead?

Did the credit card screen come before or after it? I've been told it comes before.

The username doesn't exist , nothing exists about me

EXACTLY, nor would I expect it to be since you do not appear to have actually ordered anything. You need to complete the order with Plusnet for them to even be aware of your existence. Please think about what you did, reflect on it, do that again and then understand that no one is going to take any money nor know about you since you haven't placed an order.

You keep saying you have lost a good deal. Have you had a credit card bill for monies owed?

In reply to a post by broadband66:

You keep saying you have lost a good deal. Have you had a credit card bill for monies owed?

"Lost a good deal" as in "there was a good deal on offer and now I've lost it because I don't trust Plusnet any more" - not "lost a good deal" as in "I've lost a good deal of money." I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_in_a_teapot

Edited by kasg (Tue 08-Mar-16 17:14:23)

I know but ,£200 has come off my spending limit of my credit card and my bank told me plusnet can erase this instead of waiting for the amount to drop off. It's the principal .

Post deleted by MrSaffron

Staying within the rules means posts usually remain

Assuming that you have been reading the many replies what is it that you don't understand? Please explain and someone will I am sure spell it out for you.

Since you never submitted an order Plusnet know nothing about you nor do they have details of any reservation which would have occurred at the card verification stage. As has been said already this reservation will automatically drop off in a few days. Your problem has little to do with Plusnet other than that it was on the Plusnet site where you commenced an order, had your credit card checked and verified and then decided not to proceed. The same could have happened on a myriad of other sites. This exercise has cost you nothing other than any inconvenience you might have suffered as a result you having a short term reduction in the amount of credit available to you.

I would suggest that you consider asking your credit card company for your credit limit to be raised a little to avoid being inconvenienced when you next are in this situation.

Yea ,But there is one more step that plunset can do and it would disappear instantly.Why should I have my limit down by £200. Someone from Santandar told me that . I know I haven't lost the money but they must have a bank. But they don't want to do it or they don't know its possible . It's the first time I ever heard about it . There's nothing really more to talk about ...

Edited by deleted (Tue 08-Mar-16 23:11:17)

I doubt any merchant will ever do that.

There are systems in place, like the automatic drop off, which all merchants will use.

Matt

Come on! - You are just being deliberately awkward. Your limit is not down it is unchanged. The funds available within that limit are temporarilly reduced due to what you have done. Just accept that a) you have made an error and b) it will be automatically corrected in the next day or so.

For Plusnet to be able to communicate with Santander, with any meaningful detail (such as your name, account number/sort code, and transaction id), Plusnet would have to be able to find those details in their database.

Yet you've explained that your details have fallen into a black hole.

Until Plusnet suck them out of that black hole, they're unable to do what you want.

Even though a Santander agent has told you this is possible, it isn't. It is one reason why the transaction automatically unwinds itself after a few days.

But there is one more step that plunset can do and it would disappear instantly

Rubbish, what your post illustrates yet again is your inability to grasp what has happened and why and that if anyone is at fault it is more likely to be yourself. Plusnet don't have a clue as to who you are since you never submitted an application. Get over it and try and learn something from the experience since you appear to be very new to the world of using a credit card.

A bit ago I realised I had missed something. The early references by the OP to this fax are that Santander said it is Plusnet's bank that need to send it. Not Plusnet itself.

ROFL!

He really expects that to happen???

" It's the principal"

Mmmmm! Having principals is ok when you're correct but in this case...........

It's actually more likely to be the principle than the principal in this case

I have to say I'm rather disappointed with a lot of the negative comment in this thread, but leaving that aside -
lennyuk, has this Pre-authorisation fallen off your account yet?
How long has/had it been on your account now?
Did you ever contact the regulator to get the Full SP on Pre-authorisations?

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

For Plusnet to be able to communicate with Santander, with any meaningful detail (such as your name, account number/sort code, and transaction id), Plusnet would have to be able to find those details in their database.

That is one of the more important things that have been said in this thread - Plusnet must have had/got that information to do the Pre-Authorisation and we all know how poor some aspects of Plusnet's Accounting systems can be, but either they are unwilling to look for that data or incapable of doing so.

As I explained twice earlier in the thread, it seems almost certain the OP did not submit the order after the pre-authorisation had completed. The website session would simply have expired with no details sent to the ordering system.

Well I was locked out of my online banking during the whole thing , now that I'm back I can't see anything related to this saga .

Why would you? There was never a transaction to show.

Edited by kasg (Fri 18-Mar-16 09:27:38)

In reply to a post by lennyuk:

Well I was locked out of my online banking during the whole thing

You never mentioned that earlier, and it also seems highly unlikely.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

it also seems highly unlikely.

Not necessarily. There could be many ways of getting locked out of an account so not beyond the realms of possibility, would give the benefit of the doubt.

What is clear is that we were correct in what was happening and there was no negative impact to lenny apart from maybe his blood pressure.

The way he phrased it he was locked out of his account because of this non-transaction, but he previously stated that the apparent pre-authorisation hadn't affected breached his credit limit and he didn't need to buy anything on the card.

So yes, all sorts of things can cause someone to be locked out of their account, (as opposed to their credit card account), but if he was it is a remarkable coincidence.

His latest post even muddies the waters even more, as how did he know anything about the non-transaction. The only way, if he couldn't access the credit card account, would be that he rang the bank to find out after hearing nothing from Plusnet in the first place. In which case I'm sure the pre-auth thing would have been explained to him there and then. Which seems from the OP happened, except he didn't really understand.

Interesting that earlier he said he didn't want a D/D. Maybe his account was blocked at the time, but it's nothing to do with this palaver. Does any ISP not require direct debits?

His statement was

Well I was locked out of my online banking during the whole thing

That didn't suggest cause and effect to me but coincidence. Could be wrong but I don't believe he was saying he was locked out because of this and appears only to be online banking that was locked out which suggests a user account issue rather than a monetary issue.

But, it is quite possible we will never know for sure.

I thought there was because I completed the securecode from mastercard to complete the payment.. my bank told me if they want they could take the money ..

Edited by deleted (Fri 18-Mar-16 23:40:44)

No DD wasn't mandatory to complete the transaction . It was a coincidence that I locked my self out of my online banking . I was in constant communication with the bank 0800 number.

Robert ,what do you mean it was highly unlikely . Are you saying I made this whole story up?

It was a coincidence , my bank just changed the passwords and the way you sign in and I screwed up.

In reply to a post by lennyuk:

Robert ,what do you mean it was highly unlikely . Are you saying I made this whole story up?

Not at all. Simply that your post combining saying it has sorted itself out with saying you had been locked out of your account during this episode implied the two were connected. I was simply saying that was unlikely.

You haven't exactly been clear about what happened in the first place, and have not replied when questions/suggestions have been put forward. It does seem you didn't properly finish the order. That would explain absolutely everything that happened, as I explained earlier.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

His latest post even muddies the waters even more, as how did he know anything about the non-transaction.

It shows not itemised as a "Pending transactions" total in a CC a/c. OP said he was locked out of online banking, not CC a/c. They are separate even with same bank.

Per RobertoS post here: http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/plusnet/t/4469337-r...

If you didn't enter the d/d details, which are compulsory, then the order didn't complete because you didn't finish it and didn't place it.

The whole thing explained.

This I find kind of backward (not RobertoS, but Plusnet).

During the order process, why would you, as a business, take a whole load of details, including CC information, and then pre-auth the card, and *then* ask for direct debit details, which, according to Rob, "are compulsory" for the order to be progressed and accepted?

Why would you not ask for *all* the details required for the order and successful account creation, including DD, *then* ask for CC information, pre-auth, and then accept the order?

The mind boggles. I read some of the threads on the PlusNet forums and I really do question who is running that joint behind the scenes. To have someone abandon an order, but still have their CC pre-auth'd, seems bizarre to me. A pre-auth is for when you have ALL the information for the order to actually be valid, and be accepted into the order system - the pre-auth would be the last confirmation from all parties involved, from all angles, that the money is immediately available for use and the customer has shown complete intent to proceed with the order.

If the order then fails, it should be because it fails at the provisioning stage (eg. BT related, bla bla bla). Not because a customer abandoned the order process by closing their web browser.

Craziness.

Edited by deleted (Sat 19-Mar-16 10:00:11)

In reply to a post by lennyuk:

It was a coincidence , my bank just changed the passwords and the way you sign in and I screwed up.

I don't believe your bank changed your password. They may have changed the logon procedure to make it more secure. Your last 3 words are the only ones relevant.

I must say that, in nearly 9 years with Plusnet, they've never attempted to take money that's not due to them.

Speak as one finds

So this thread was just a waste of time!!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to a post by broadband66:

So this thread was just a waste of time!!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder if the OP would take the credit for that

Certainly sounds like a card!

Post deleted by Apprentice