Ping graph request from Plusnet & Sky FTTC users please

could you also state your location, exchange and line speed please, ideally id like people from cricklewood exchange but the chances anyone around me will read this is unlikely.

(if you dont have any ping graphs then just a trace route to bbc.co.uk would be ok just want a rough idea)

Thanks

Edited by deleted (Tue 15-Apr-14 19:42:34)

Here's mine:
Hurstpierpoint, West Sussex SDHRSTP 46/9

My Broadband Ping

Take a look at http://community.plus.net/ping-graphs/ for ping graphs, but obviously no location or line speed.

Mine are home Broadstairs currently 48 down on fast path, work Sandwich currently 38 down and interleaved.

In Lancashire.

I've had Sky Fibre Pro (full 80/20; not interleaved), now on Plusnet Unlimited Fibre (full 80/20; not interleaved) and regularly use a mates BT Infinity 80/20 (full 80/20; not interleaved)

Out of the three, I'd say Sky Fibre Pro had the lowest latency, and had minimal jitter. When I was out of contract for Sky Fibre Pro the minimum latency increased from < 11.5 to 20. So I don't know if it's still like that now because I migrated to Plusnet shortly after that increase.

Also with Plusnet, all their gateways have different latencies (some as high as 20ms minimum, some as low as 11.5ms), so if you want the lower latency you have to keep restarting the PPPoE connection till you find a lower latency gateway. That wasn't the case with Sky, I don't know if it would with BT Infinity, but I wouldn't think so.

Here's two traces to my old server (in Telehouse West) from BT Infinity and my Plusnet connection.

Plusnet:

1 lo0-central10.pcl-ag02.plus.net (195.166.128.183) 13.428 ms 15.051 ms 16.014 ms
2 link-a-central10.pcl-gw01.plus.net (212.159.2.164) 11.710 ms 11.860 ms 11.926 ms
3 xe-10-1-0.pcl-cr01.plus.net (212.159.0.196) 11.146 ms 11.524 ms 11.257 ms
4 ae1.ptw-cr01.plus.net (195.166.129.0) 11.788 ms 11.415 ms 14.450 ms
5 ae1.ptw-cr02.plus.net (195.166.129.2) 11.862 ms 11.316 ms ae2.ptw-cr02.plus.net (195.166.129.5) 16.818 ms
6 gateway-rdns.tld(x.x.x.x) 12.143 ms 12.779 ms 12.368 ms
7 server-rdns.tld (x.x.x.x) 11.840 ms 11.790 ms 11.876 ms

BT Infinity (from WAN interface, not a PC so missing a hop. Sometimes 15ms to that server):

1 217.32.143.35 5.701 ms
2 217.32.143.62 5.788 ms
3 213.120.158.250 8.777 ms
4 213.120.162.69 8.965 ms
5 31.55.165.109 9.707 ms
6 109.159.250.198 9.450 ms
7 109.159.250.156 19.457 ms
8 109.159.254.50 19.729 ms
9 166.49.214.184 18.183 ms
10 82.112.101.73 18.470 ms
11 *
12 x.x.x.x (server) 16.127 ms

I don't have one from Sky to my server, but here's one for comparison.

Tracing route to multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.26] - 13/08/2013; 13.30
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms OpenWrt.lan [192.168.1.1]
2 33 ms 14 ms 14 ms 97e70003.skybroadband.com [151.231.0.3]
3 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms 0278098c.bb.sky.com [2.120.9.140]
4 21 ms 23 ms 23 ms 02780a0a.bb.sky.com [2.120.10.10]
5 20 ms 20 ms 20 ms linx1.multiplay.co.uk [195.66.224.224]
6 20 ms 20 ms 20 ms ha01.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.26]

And one from my Plusnet connection to multiplay.

traceroute to multiplay.co.uk (85.236.96.26), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets
1 192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1) 0.428 ms 0.216 ms 0.210 ms
2 lo0-central10.ptw-ag01.plus.net (195.166.128.195) 37.416 ms 38.254 ms 14.552 ms
3 link-a-central10.ptw-gw01.plus.net (212.159.2.144) 12.797 ms 12.558 ms 12.519 ms
4 xe-4-2-0.ptw-cr01.plus.net (212.159.0.240) 12.065 ms 12.805 ms 12.725 ms
5 ae2.ptw-cr02.plus.net (195.166.129.5) 12.747 ms 14.416 ms 12.716 ms
6 195.66.236.224 (195.66.236.224) 13.214 ms 12.794 ms 12.713 ms
7 ha01.multiplay.co.uk (85.236.96.26) 12.524 ms 12.618 ms 12.738 ms

On the speed side of things, Sky Fibre is a bit faster than Plusnet (don't know about BT infinity).

Here's an average speed test from both.

Plusnet:
http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/3442444952

Sky:
http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/2856821941

Conclusion
If I had to choose between either Sky, BT Retail, or Plusnet retail for 80/20 FTTC I'd choose Sky if I knew they had fixed the latency issue (I play, and manage online video game servers). Otherwise I'd go with either BT or Plusnet, I don't know which one as there's really not much difference between them (ignoring BT retails routing), not counting support or other features.

NOTE: BT Infinity connections is on HG612 modem, which adds a few ms to the latency. I'd estimate it at about 12ms without the HG612. Forgot to mention that I sometimes see packet loss in online games and TeamSpeak on Plusnet, never saw it on Sky, maybe it's possible that it's something to do with BT Wholesale, but I'm not sure. Never saw any on Sky.

Edited by deleted (Wed 16-Apr-14 10:33:05)

Thanks for all the info, is that trace route to multiplay.co.uk on sky after the latency issues you were having as it looks around 20ms compared to plusnets 12-13ms?

Also the traffic prioritization on the plusnet network where they prioritize gaming traffic above downloads etc, did you find this to be helpful?

Finally, are you sure the Openreach modem adds latency? what Router/modem would you suggest?

The traffic prioritising on plusnet from what i have read is only any real benefit to those who have several devices connected and using the internet at the same time,
But if it's just you using the connection for gaming then there won't be any real benefit's check out the plusnet forums , there's a gaming section on there

Also uk based servers are rarely an issue, European or servers in the USA , or elsewhere present a bit more of a challenge when it comes to isp's and peering agreements, or if they give a dam about making sure gaming traffic takes the shortest most direct route and gives the lowest latency possible, most don't care they will opt for the cheapest solution,

Edited by tommy45 (Wed 16-Apr-14 14:08:37)

check my sig for mine, location leics.

Fast path FTTC.

I think sync speed wont affect these graphs much except lines with slower speed will saturate easier so will show more affect when used.

what ive noticed from alot of plusnet graphs is alot of spikes during peak evening times.

Because the Plusnet routers aren't interested in incoming pings. They are interested in real traffic .

How many other ISPs have you found that are willing to publish on one page any BQM graphs their users provide ? Then compared the pages.

I'm guessing evenings are also the time that people are using their connections more. I know when I have BQM running on connections I would see ping spikes whilst downloading just because the bandwidth was in use. Ping spikes can only be fully understood if you know what was being done on the line at the time of the spike.

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

what ive noticed from alot of plusnet graphs is alot of spikes during peak evening times.

Yes, a lot of us have a small hillock of increased latency during the evening. It never seems to affect throughput though so some of us suspect it's ICMP traffic being assigned a low priority rather than bandwidth issues.

I was quite suspicious when I joined PN a couple of months ago but I've seen no adverse impact during my testing so I ignore it now.

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

Also the traffic prioritization on the plusnet network where they prioritize gaming traffic above downloads etc, did you find this to be helpful?

This is a bone of contention amongst PN users. We shouldn't get into it here in case it explodes out of control but apparently it isn't network prioritisation as such - it's connection prioritisation. In other words it's based on what you are doing not on what others are.

It still seems a bit odd to me but the claim is that it's designed to improve the service you perceive rather than to protect the network. So one user might find FTP traffic being throttled because they are using VoIP whereas someone who is only using FTP sees no throttling. I can see some value to this but confess to still being a bit sceptical about it. It sounds more like QoS and I'm not sure the ISP should be providing QoS services for the customer. I suppose there's a wider benefit in that it limits held or discarded packets at the greater network level but it still seems a bit odd.

Anyway that's all technical strangeness. From a user's perspective I've not seen evidence of any throttling or shaping. It all just seems to flow at full speed 24/7.

Edited by Andrue (Wed 16-Apr-14 16:04:54)

Canterbury, 40/10Mbps (maximum sync speed):- http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/8a2e3946b07...

The spikes are caused by my SamKnows whitebox testing the line.

My brain is hurting from trying to decide who i want to move to from BT Plusnet + Sky both seem good. purely looking for the best ping times and better network management

Here's mine.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/bff736067eb...

EMKIRKB exchange.

Line speed from sky was estimated at between 52-58Mbps but i am getting 59Mb/18.3Mb on FTTC 80/20 package however on steam im peaking at 6.2MB/s and current 6.1MB/s.
exchange - edgware north london connected on cabinet 27
Thinkbroadband Ping

C:\Users\Francis>tracert pingbox1.thinkbroadband.com

Tracing route to pingbox1.thinkbroadband.com [80.249.99.164]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms fw.local [192.168.1.1]
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 13 ms 18 ms 8 ms ip-84-38-37-12.easynet.co.uk [84.38.37.12]
4 5 ms 7 ms 6 ms linx-gw2.thdo.ncuk.net [195.66.236.240]
5 9 ms 7 ms 8 ms gi1-24-10-star1.core-rs2.thdo.ncuk.net [80.249.97.9]
6 7 ms 6 ms 6 ms pingbox1.thinkbroadband.com [80.249.99.164]
Trace complete.

black ops server

C:\Users\Francis>tracert 108.61.230.110

Tracing route to 108-61-230-110.constant.com [108.61.230.110]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms fw.local [192.168.1.1]
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 6 ms 8 ms 7 ms ip-84-38-37-10.easynet.co.uk [84.38.37.10]
4 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms ae51.edge6.london1.level3.net [212.113.9.53]
5 6 ms 6 ms 6 ms vl-3516-ve-130.csw1.london1.level3.net [4.69.166.78]
6 8 ms 6 ms 6 ms ae-124-3510.edge5.london1.level3.net [4.69.166.37]
7 7 ms 7 ms 6 ms choopa-llc.edge5.london1.level3.net [212.187.138.146]
8 6 ms 7 ms 6 ms 108-61-230-110.constant.com [108.61.230.110]

GBServers
C:\Users\Francis>tracert gbservers.co.uk

Tracing route to gbservers.co.uk [185.10.200.20]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms fw.local [192.168.1.1]
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 6 ms 7 ms 7 ms ip-84-38-37-12.easynet.co.uk [84.38.37.12]
4 6 ms 6 ms 6 ms ld5-linx.as29550.net [195.66.236.223]
5 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms te4-2-hex-7600.as29550.net [94.76.244.77]
6 8 ms 8 ms 7 ms as29550-as12703.pab.hex.as29550.net [31.193.143.74]
7 7 ms 7 ms 8 ms te-0-0-0-1.cr01.dc1-mhd.pulsant.net [46.249.196.5]
8 8 ms 8 ms 10 ms te-0-1-0.cs01-1u.dc1-mhd.pulsant.net [46.249.195.10]
9 9 ms 8 ms 8 ms network.gbservers.co.uk [94.76.243.117]
10 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms cheddar.dnsgb.net [185.10.200.20]
Trace complete.

Edited by francisuk25 (Wed 16-Apr-14 18:50:54)

I understood it worked at all levels, so on your connection at home and on all the ISP'S combined users. Also I believe the evening hump is capacity getting near to the limit, Plusnet have always been very good at predicting when to purchase more capacity. The hump was getting quite pronounced a while ago and then more capacity came on line and it disappeared for quite some time.

you seen my post/graphs? for me its came back quite bad for last few weeks.

But I have noticed many other customers graphs look nothing like mine.

It doesnt seem to be affecting my service tho. If it did I would be making lots of noise about it.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

It doesnt seem to be affecting my service tho.

That's the point non-customers have a problem with . It isn't easy to believe until you experience it.

In reply to a post by 5km:

The spikes are caused by my SamKnows whitebox testing the line.

So that's who's using the bandwidth

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

It doesnt seem to be affecting my service tho.

That's the point non-customers have a problem with . It isn't easy to believe until you experience it.

Indeed. I've got latency going on at the moment but throughput is at the max as normal:

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share-thumb/ab88b...

But note (to save confusion for others) it is pings from thinkbroadband to your router that are being delayed through the Plusnet system. Not gaming latency. It's precisely because things like gaming packets get priority that incoming ping packets are told they don't matter.

good point, i must admit i think im reading too much into the yellow parts of some graphs, but as you say, the pings being sent are of low priority.

Just on a side note for someone who is more technically in the know than me. Im currently maxing out my line on 40/10 infinity at 33 down 7 up, its the max my line is capable of even if on an 80/20 package due to being roughly 1000m from my cab, now if i go on to plusnet unlimited which is 80/20, will the attempt at pushing more speed down my line thats not capable of it cause instability? If so, can i stay on the unlimited package and ask them to cap at 40/10?

Plusnet keep their own copy of the "IP profile" (which BT calculate at 96.79% of sync speed) and use that value in their traffic management system to monitor/control the throughput.

When the value is right, there is no need to request a cap.

ok, so they only cap when someones line is capable of achieving higher than the max speed stated as the headline speeds on the packages. Its just the same throughput on all packages only stopped by the caps for lines who are capable of more, therefore i will still be receiving the same throughput and no change in stability. thanks

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

But note (to save confusion for others) it is pings from thinkbroadband to your router that are being delayed through the Plusnet system. Not gaming latency. It's precisely because things like gaming packets get priority that incoming ping packets are told they don't matter.

Only if they are match ports as some game servers use diffrent ports, I know Call of Duty uses port 3074 but battlefield uses verious ports to connect.

Edited by francisuk25 (Wed 16-Apr-14 22:26:56)

your pings look so nice, can i buy your house?

On topic, lol, is it only the ports that tell plusnet that they are gaming packets?

You should not lose on real life speed, but speed tests will consistently be 1Mbps or so slower for some deep reason associated with the prioritisation and the way the speed test programs deal with buffering.

AIUI gaming packets should not be buffered, but speed test ones could be.

The Plusnet Current line speed that they apply to the line is your IP profile rounded down. My IP Profile is 56.81. My PN equivalent is 56.80. A whole 10kbps lower . But could be 90kbps.

im not bothered at all about bandwidth speeds, i care only for low pings and as stable line as possible for having fast path or as low level of interleaving as possible

Doesn't really matter as Sky is unlimited and has no sign of contention kicking in yet. My usage is actually quite low.

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

Thanks for all the info, is that trace route to multiplay.co.uk on sky after the latency issues you were having as it looks around 20ms compared to plusnets 12-13ms?

Also the traffic prioritization on the plusnet network where they prioritize gaming traffic above downloads etc, did you find this to be helpful?

Finally, are you sure the Openreach modem adds latency? what Router/modem would you suggest?

When I said Sky went to 20ms I meant further into Skys network, i.e. before the increase the final hop (e.g. multiplay) would of been 11ms instead of 20ms.

Gaming on Plusnet is fine, yes there is packet loss now and again (never on Sky). I usually have the lowest ping in the servers that I'm in. I believe there's more jitter on Plusnet, I don't have any proof, it's just a feeling.

I'm 100% sure the HG612 adds a couple of milliseconds of latency, at least on my cab which is an ECI cab. I don't know if there's a difference on the Huawei cabs. I use an ECI Openreach modem, I'd recommend that with a router, not a router/modem all-in-one.

I personally have a preference for OpenWrt, but pfSense and DD-WRT are also solid. As for routers, I've used a Buffalo WZR-HP-AG300H (with OpenWrt 12.09) since I've had Sky Fibre, it's solid. E.g. full speed on wireless, 70+ Mbps.

Edited by deleted (Thu 17-Apr-14 14:02:32)

ive read on some topics that you can only use the sky hub for skys fiber not sure if thats true. So for an overall experience (not taking actual download speed into account, purely based on ping, jitter and stability) you would favor sky over plusnet...are you planning on going back to sky after your PN contract ends?

I might try picking up an ECI modem online if it will work with sky and my cabinet (would i have to fiddle about with settings or anything to get it to connect to the sky connection?)

Have you considered Zen?

i haven't no, they didnt even enter my mind, when i was trying to find the best providers i kept seeing PN and Sky on google and forums etc.

i've heard of zen but i dont really know anything about their service/network being good or not.

There's a website that generates the username and password based on the algorithm that Sky use. So yes it's technically possible. I think that has changed now, there's some login information that you can use that's online, so you don't need to work out your specific login.

Sky is better in my opinion for latency, they have much more bandwidth which should mean a better overall experience latency-wise. I don't know if I'll change back, probably not, because on the bandwidth and latency side of things Plusnet is fine, just not as good. Plusnet has more technical extras so I think I'll stay with them.

The Openreach branded modems will work out of the box on any of the ISP's who resell Openreach's GEA-FTTC product, e.g. Sky and Plusnet.

technical extras? such as static IP etc?

I'm now also delving into researching about Zen fibre, see what their service is like, i think at the minute im edging towards sky, but if i hear and see good things about zen i may go that way

Static IP, rDNS, IPv6 trials (not on it, but at least there's a trial), and other trials. As for Zen, isn't worth the extra to me (for residential use anyway). I'm willing to bet the difference of the connection itself would be unnoticeable (haven't really looked into them). Plus I think they use BT Wholesale (like Plusnet) which adds another layer, so possibly higher latency and packet loss.

There's also the possibility to earn money from Plusnet, for each person that you refer that signs up you will earn a monthly commission all the time they are with Plusnet, it can soon add up if you refer enough people.

as long as the monthly cost for who ever i pick is no more than £35-£40 im not to bothered about savings. Just want solid stable pings

It could be earnings depending on how you look at it.

When I frst went FTTC from O2 LLU I went to IDNet, another highly-rated ISP, from pure nerves.

After 12 months I decided to risk the much improved Plusnet (compared to a few years ago) and saved myself a fortune.

I've not noticed any difference in the performance of my line. Relevant ISP comparisons. Though I'm surprised Sky is still so low, unless there is a huge influence from the pathetic "Sky Connect" product.

You can have a static IP with Sky now if you are on Sky Fibre Pro Unlimited although the IP addresses are 'sticky' on Sky fibre and rarely change.

They are also introducing Line Profile Customisation later on this year on SFUP and the new ADSL2+ Unlimited Pro package although I would guess this will be of more use for those on the ADSL product.

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

im not bothered at all about bandwidth speeds, i care only for low pings and as stable line as possible for having fast path or as low level of interleaving as possible

That unfortunately will depend on you line quality and length because it's outside of the ISP's control.

In reply to a post by simon194:

You can have a static IP with Sky now if you are on Sky Fibre Pro Unlimited although the IP addresses are 'sticky' on Sky fibre and rarely change.

They are also introducing Line Profile Customisation later on this year on SFUP and the new ADSL2+ Unlimited Pro package although I would guess this will be of more use for those on the ADSL product.

They won't be able to make changes such as target noise margins or turning off interleave on BT openeach's GEA FTTC products , because BTopenreach are the ones with control , they use their DLM on their dslam's in the cabs,Unless they decide to let ISP's have control, in which case the option would be made available to all isp's not only sky, but i don't see that happening anytime soon, Sky are supposed to be going to offer some control on the new pro ADSL product it has created for BE static ip customers ,as it's their own LLU kit in the exchanges

interesting on the static ip.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

interesting on the static ip.

Yeah they i think realised it was a popular demand ,due to them having to offer those who had a static with BE a static IP in order to retain some of them, Aread in the BE user forums seems to indicate that sky are up to their old tricks, migrating BEcustomers with no prior notice of the date of the migration ect, then misleading some into beliving that they had entered into a new 12mth min term, lots of underhanded stuff going on apoarently, oh i found this interesting snippet of info on which DLM profile sky select sky select the default stable DLM option botton of the page post by scubbie But the qestion they don't appear to of asked is that BTW 's setting or the BTOR GEA setting , as both are different, i would assume that they refered to the BTOR GEA dlm setting , as they utilise their own backhaul so i assume don't use or order via BTW?

Edited by tommy45 (Fri 18-Apr-14 04:03:31)

correct.

but regardless of which they use they not using the faster profile as on one its speed, on the other its standard.

I always suspected sky were more paranoid about line stability than other isp's due to their weird DLM working upwards instead of downwards, and it seems they carried this paranoia over to their choice of FTTC DLM.

Also its possible that openreach have added a lower snrm profile now.

I 3 days ago resynced with a 4db margin during DLM hours, and the attainable speed reported by the modem reflects a 4db target snrm not 6db.

Even tho right now i have a 4.4db snrm my attainable is higher than my sync speed. This happened at the same time my PSD mask changed.

Max: Upstream rate = 25788 Kbps, Downstream rate = 76016 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 75780 Kbps

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 18-Apr-14 08:27:16)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

When I frst went FTTC from O2 LLU I went to IDNet, another highly-rated ISP, from pure nerves.

After 12 months I decided to risk the much improved Plusnet (compared to a few years ago) and saved myself a fortune.

I had AAISP ADSL2+ and there wasn't a difference in actual broadband speeds, I knew that going in, wanted Annex M, and they offered it. All the expensive ISP's have over the big ISP's is their support and niche features nowadays.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I've not noticed any difference in the performance of my line. Relevant ISP comparisons. Though I'm surprised Sky is still so low, unless there is a huge influence from the pathetic "Sky Connect" product.

Ah yes, "Sky Connect", do they still sell that thing.

There was a slowdown for about a month at peak times, about 5 years ago. That's the only problem I've personally experienced with Sky, other than that I've received full speeds all the time.

MrSaffron should have a decent amount of data for the Sky Fibre products from speed tests, I'm willing to bet the speeds aren't bad.

Plusnet is good as well!

Edited by deleted (Fri 18-Apr-14 20:01:03)

Plusnet is ok if you don't mind being sold a little say upto 5mbps shy on DS throughput,for some FTTC customers ,
Due to Plusnet having a second IP profile that is always set slightly lower than what BT's is set to, coupled with the way their traffic prioritisation works ,

Apparently it's not a case of just speedtests recording a lower speed results due to some buffer ect, but the atcual throughput is around 3% less than what BT ,ZEN ,and other BTW based customers see on FTTC services, the percentage is slightly greater if compared to sky's GEA FTTC because they use PPPOA instead of PPPOE

Edited by tommy45 (Fri 18-Apr-14 20:54:57)

i think my minds made up and set on going with sky. is it possible to use 3rd party routers with sky? ive heard its a bit of hassle

It's possible i belive yes ,some are doing it without issues, But if you are going to be paying £30.00 per month i would go for zen personally, sky support isnt the best , and they choose the stable DLM profile over the Speed option, So this may or maynot have an affect on latency and top end speed or it may not, depands on how much interference or crosstalk there is on the line, if impacted the dlm may recact more severely on a stable profile than it would if set to speed , zen from info i've read on here iirc suggests they use the openreach speed option as aparently do plusnet, not sure on BT they don't tend to be very forthcoming with any info though but the choice is yours at the end of the day

Highest max throughput sky lowest seems to be Plusnet
Openreach GEA DLM Profile Sky select stable Plusnet & Zen and possibly others select Speed, Plusnet is the only ISP to use a second IP profile and use traffic prioritisation price plusnet is the cheapest But charge for install £50 if bb only 18mth min term zen 12mths min term Sky may now be 18mths min term was 12mths But they also require you to pay them line rental so would become fully unbundled ,

Edited by tommy45 (Fri 18-Apr-14 21:55:04)

sky's £20, my line can barely hit the max speeds on 40/10 so im not going to go for pro (80/20)

You say sky has max throughput, but plusnet and zen are on speed, how does that work out then?

Also, due to my line being so long (its interleaved on bt infinity 40/10 atm) i wonder what would be more beneficial for my ping times and might allow the dlm to reduce the level of interleave on my line, speed or stable.

Sky will give a higher throughput PPPOA all the others use PPPOE as far as i'm aware
Probably down to how the BTwholesale network is set up
Zen and other isp's don't use a second IP profile ,So their customers see headline speeds nearer to that of those on sky FTTC that have the same max 40/10 or 80/20 sync rates than customers of Plusnet who's speeds tend to be a lower due to that second IP profile and the way their traffic management works or is configured to work,

The Speed that i refereed One of 3 BTopenreach GEA DLM profiles that all ISP's can choose from at the time that they place an FTTC order, Sky unlike Plusnet &Zen and possibly other isp's too ,appear to have chosen the stable option over the speed option
here's an explanation of what each option represents or is supposed to represent
Each DLM profile will have different parameters, So in theory the Speed profile should mean that DLM is less aggressive if it intervened or & maybe less likely to intervene, than if set to the stable or standard profiles

In reference to www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-fastfibreaccess/fibret...:

Dynamic Line Management (DLM) features
Match the way a line is managed to the way
your customer uses it:
�R Standard ¡V best overall balance
between speed and stability for general
internet users

Stable ¡V prioritise stability over speed for
IPTV videoconferencing, home workers
and businesses transferring data and IPTV

Speed ¡V prioritise speed over stability for
online gamers

There was some confusion regarding these BTOR GEA profiles and those that BTWholesale use, Standard, Stable, Super Stable profiles

BTW "Standard" = Openreach "Speed"
BTW "Stable" = Openreach "Standard"
BTW "Superstable" = Openreach "Stable"
Why on earth they couldn't use the same naming is anyones guess

I'm not sure that 2011 document is still valid in that respect tommy. There is no mention of those Openreach options in the SIN 498 description of their DLM. As I remember it, in earlier versions there was.

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 19-Apr-14 00:52:15)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Sky will give a higher throughput PPPOA all the others use PPPOE as far as i'm aware

Sky don't use PPPoA on their fibre products, they use MAC Encapsulated Routing (MER) with DHCP Option 60 for authentication.

WBC fttc Handbook feb 2014 appears to mention the same DLM profiles being available to ISP's , It maybe that they omitted it, I'm sure finding out if the 3 available DLM profiles are still avaiable or not wouldn't be too hard ,as there are a few ISP's who post on here that are transparent in some of the techincal details of the services they provide

In reply to a post by simon194:

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Sky will give a higher throughput PPPOA all the others use PPPOE as far as i'm aware

Sky don't use PPPoA on their fibre products, they use MAC Encapsulated Routing (MER) with DHCP Option 60 for authentication.

Only on the exchanges that have their newer SVBN LLU kit installed, on the other's with legacy easynet llu kit installed they will use PPPOA most likely, but either encapsulation provides more throughput than PPPOE the MTU is different also

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 19-Apr-14 01:45:18)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Plusnet is ok if you don't mind being sold a little say upto 5mbps shy on DS throughput,for some FTTC customers ,
Due to Plusnet having a second IP profile that is always set slightly lower than what BT's is set to, coupled with the way their traffic prioritisation works ,

Apparently it's not a case of just speedtests recording a lower speed results due to some buffer ect, but the atcual throughput is around 3% less than what BT ,ZEN ,and other BTW based customers see on FTTC services, the percentage is slightly greater if compared to sky's GEA FTTC because they use PPPOA instead of PPPOE

I've had both full 80/20 FTTC with Sky and Plusnet so I know first hand about the speed differences (mentioned earlier on). The gap isn't that large, but yeah I'd prefer I was getting the same speed. It costs less and only a few meg less so I'm happy.

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Apparently it's not a case of just speedtests recording a lower speed results due to some buffer ect, but the atcual throughput is around 3% less than what BT ,ZEN ,and other BTW based customers see on FTTC services, the percentage is slightly greater if compared to sky's GEA FTTC because they use PPPOA instead of PPPOE

They don't use PPPoA on FTTC, they use MER for AAA, like simon194 said.

Yes PN do use a secondary IP profile and it is usually only slightly less than your sync speed, mine currently seems to have not updated on my last resync, which was so quick that it barely registered on my ping monitor.

Any way my PN IP Profile is 47.2mb, and my sync speed was 48884 Kbps, since my resync my sync speed is 46052 and I'm getting 43.14 Mbps. That missing speed is probably network overheads etc. Either way it makes no real difference, the connection feels very fast and responsive.

Oh, PN use traffic prioritisation, not traffic management there is a difference.

The difference in throughput does tend to differ, from what i have read it's the people with syncs 80/20 who loose out the most the max
BT ip profile seems to be 77.44 but plusnet's is 77.4 , which would appear negligible,

But no one would appear to be able to get the same speeds on plusnet as they have /would do if they where with BT retail or other isp, like for like. seems to be around the 3mbps mark or higher for some ,works of at a difference of 3-4% , 3mbps per FTTC customer is a lot of data ,

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 19-Apr-14 10:54:06)

But in the real world what would you be doing to notice that difference, the only thing I can think of is downloading torrents (apart from speed tests), and then anybody else using the same connection would have a poor service and this is where PN traffic prioritisation comes in, ensuring more time critical traffic is given priority.

Download/uploading to the cloud is often limited by the cloud provider or websites/servers and as the OP is interested in gaming ping times I doubt it will make any difference at all.

Worth pointing out yes, but at the end of the day does it really make any difference, I don't think so. I wonder if it's the traffic prioritisation causing the minor slow down, you need somebody with the pro add on getting full sync to see what they get.

From what i have read here and other places it seems that it's a combination of both having a second IP profile and the way that their traffic management works, And that this also does affect normal HTTP downloads too, If their PRO addon make much if any of a difference there doesn't seem to much info available

The idea of prioritised traffic may be good for some, ie families who live on the net, many devices connected at the same time all consuming bandwidth,should someone want to use a latency sensitive app ,
But where you have just the one device connected at any time, it's of no real benefit, as your gamer will know not to use wireless or home plugs etc, or have a torrent downloading/seeding whilst playing a game online, that's basic common sense or should be,
Also if none of plusnets customers on their FTTC products are able to reach those speeds advertised then they should consider perhaps changing the upto 76mbps to upto 72-73mbps, I mention that because i'm sure that a certain percentage of customers are supposed to be able to get the advertised speeds, ?

This is true, when im gaming i make sure nothing else is connected to the internet. The connection is 100% gaming only when i game. So i don't think the prioritization is of any use for me in this case. Top speeds im not really interested in for the sake of a few Mbps, just ping times and how the network is routed. Seeing as i'm on such a long line (1000m give or take 100m) perhaps an isp who uses the speed profile would cause the DLM (or whatever the abbreviation is) to be less aggressive with interleaving on my line as it doesn't require it to be as stable?

What were the ISP's who definatley use the 'speed' profile again? Zen and i think someone said plusnet?

Also, what is congestion like on Zen if anyone knows, whats their network traffic routing like (as i said before, with BT my traffic gets routed through BT from london to london via sheffield which makes no sense to me. (i also read somewhere that a few people seem to have trouble with zen when they get their phone line with them aswel, no trouble when their line is with someone else but alot of problems once the line is also provided from zen, no idea why).

With being so far from the cab, there is potential for there to be interference, ect, although it could also be free from issues that could cause DLM to act ,
The Openreach GEA DLM speed profile is said to be the profile for gamers, But what that actually means, in the differences between the 3 dlm profile options the jury is still out on that,
But i would hope that it would only apply small amounts of interleave, and where possible lower sync instead of adding interleave
If speed isn't important to you, then you maybe better off with a partial LLU ASDL product, that can be configured to stay on fast path & no DLM , there are quite few small isp's offering TT wholesale products,all are 1mth contracts
But it would also depend on how close to the exchange your are , as to what sort of speeds you would see, the latency side of things may differ, but that's also down to where you live a lot of the time, generally the lower your base latency @ the 1st hop after your router ,is the better
As for routing /peering apart from asking a customer or customers of the isp's for tracerts there is no real way of telling what sort of latency figures you may see on the various ISP's , but i would be surprised if the results weren't a mixed bag, unless you wanted to pay a lot of money , as there are a few ISP's out there that could provide better results on that front, but the cost is prohibitive for residential customers ,

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 19-Apr-14 13:18:36)

im closer to the exchange then i am my cabinet (about 900m from exchange but i guess my line still runs to the cab then to me) in total about 2000m, i remember before on BE i was getting about 12-16 down and 1.8 up with pings of around 15ms to BBC where as on infinity im getting 28ms, I don't really want to go back to ADSL though, as speed is not the most important factor for me, but it is still important to the extent im not willing to half my speeds for better ping times, as gaming DL's for DLC and new games etc, streaming are becoming larger and larger.

What makes no sense to be, is my cab is 1000m away from me, and inbetween me and my cab, there are 5-6 other cabinets....i have no idea why and i absolutely HATE who ever decided that it was logical to put me (and my road) on that cabinet)

Edited by deleted (Sat 19-Apr-14 13:18:34)

When BT designed & planned the copper loops it was done for voice not broadband, thats why many lines don't take the shortest most direct route,
The downside with ADSL is the upload speed or lack of it, when i was on BE i got 16.5 /1.8 annex M my base latency was 20ms, on ukonline it was 10-13ms to the exchange equipment both Fastpath my speed on adsl2+ was 19.5/1.2 on be 17.5/1.3 (adsl2+)
When i switched from BE to BE wholesale my speeds dropped and ping increased to 27ms and was still supposed to be fastpath with the same margin (after i got them changed from defaults)

Lots of different factors can have an impact on latency, BT routing can be a bit weird, people report that their traffic from London get routed via Sheffield before reaching it's destination in London, Has your latency with BT always been 28ms since installation ?

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 19-Apr-14 13:34:42)

no, used to be 16-18ms rarely ever going above 20 at a max. it was like that for well over a year then for about the last 8 months its been at the 26-28ms mark consistantly

DLM by the sounds of it Could be due to your line being impacted by crosstalk or other types of interference, Shame we don't know which GEA DLM profile BT use my guess would be either standard or the stable option,

unfortunately there's no real way of knowing in advance what advantages if any the Speed profile would offer you or if it would make any significant differences at all
Thank's to the secretive way that BT tends to work

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

What makes no sense to be, is my cab is 1000m away from me, and inbetween me and my cab, there are 5-6 other cabinets....i have no idea why and i absolutely HATE who ever decided that it was logical to put me (and my road) on that cabinet)

It's quite possible they are not BT cabinets, could Virgin, CCTV, Mobile, there are all sorts of cabinets.

i believe sky are working on new features for the pro package which will allow profile customization from the users end as they are taking advice from BE staff and customers, i wonder if this will be the option to chose between standard, stable and speed profiles...this is what is making me possibly want to go towards sky if this is what they;re working on, however if its not then i may go with zen, but i cannot seem to find just normal customers who can supply me with trace routes and ping graphs just for a little look (i know each line is different but i just would like to have a look and see) the only things i can find are reviews and from experience, reviews are usually provided by either people who think their companies/providers can do no wrong so give them 5*s across the board regardless or by people who have been unfortunate to have had issues that may have been due to BT network and out of their control, and give them 1* across the board, i just want to know what the middle guys think of zen who have no bias just because its their provider etc

no, they're 100% bt fibre cabinets, ive checked and they all have had BT engineers working on them at some point

IMO it sounds like someone has got their wires crossed,The only mention of sky developing a new product was for those customers of BE who had a static IP

The new ASDL PRO product would offer a Static IP and also offer the option of custom profiles similar to what was offered by BE , and they have also retained some or all the BE support staff to provide tech support, They have since said that they may also at some point offer this product to new/existing sky customers
As for the FTTC offering the PRO product looks as it may start to offer a static IP as an option,
But as for anything else I would think would be very doubtfull Sky have always prefered to let DLM decide what's best, Probably because it saves them a lot of money employing support staff to deal with issues,

And from the info on the skyuser forum, it sounds that they won't be changing their desision anytime soon, as it does say that they will not change the profile at a later stage(by saying that the profile cannot be changed) when it can be & apparently at no cost to the isp you may have more chance by asking the BT tech support

BT Tech support are utter useless, im not a know it all by any means but i know the basics and yet, what i talk about to them, they seem to have no idea what im talking about and just refer to "your line speed is with in the minimum of 20mbps therefore there is no fault and you are receiving an acceptable service"

Its one of the main reasons i want to leave BT, their customer service havent got a clue

Regarding sky profile customization, ive been speaking to someone from sky and they said they are working on a feature set to release on their pro FTTC package so customers can tweak their connection according to what they want from it. eg gamers want lower latency etc. (im not 100% on it all but we'll see)

Edited by deleted (Sat 19-Apr-14 15:44:58)

I can't see how they will be able to do that with FTTC because only BTOpenreach are able to access it, It's not made accessable to sky or any ISP it's simply not offered by BTOR, and without them relenting, which seeing as theres no other isp's making any noises about being able to offer it , isnt going to happen anytime soon

Who ever is telling you that they are is talking nonsense Sky sales staff seem to have a habbit of telling potential customers a few porkies . they even manage to mislead ex BE customers , So i would take it with a large pinch of salt

And i've already said if BTOR did start to allow any control over DLM or custom profiles to be set ,They would have to do the same for every CP /ISP not just sky

And you wouldn't be alone in wanting some control over the connection that you are paying for, many people who want low latency will readlily accept the possibilty of some instabilty as a result ie the ocasional re sync or periods of high error rates(within limits) what may not be acceptable to DLM may be perfectly fine for some customers

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 19-Apr-14 16:05:22)

im thinking about zen because they are on 'speed' profile, and im thinking about sky because i believe they have their own back end equipment/network.

As i dont know much in detail about both, its hard for me to determine what i feel would be more beneficial for ping times

You're on Infinity 40/10 with interleaving so you'll the line will likely be interleaved when you migrate, if you're gaming you'll be playing against people with fast path pings most likely so I wouldn't really worry about it. If you want to see Zen traceroutes take a look at this Google search. I'd expect lower pings on Sky if down south due to Sky's network topology.

Edited by deleted (Sat 19-Apr-14 18:42:15)

but due to zen using the 'speed' profile doesnt this mean that the level of interleaving will be reduced due to less strict stability parameters to meet?

why would being down south give me better pings with sky than zen? zen have PoPs in central london

In reply to a post by tommy45:

As for the FTTC offering the PRO product looks as it may start to offer a static IP as an option,

Sky are already offering static IP's for existing customers on their fibre pro package although it's not available from all exchanges. I should have mine by the end of the month.

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

but due to zen using the 'speed' profile doesnt this mean that the level of interleaving will be reduced due to less strict stability parameters to meet?

why would being down south give me better pings with sky than zen? zen have PoPs in central london

Like I mentioned earlier, I don't know much about Zen's network, it's could be possible, but my gut is telling me it isn't the case. I don't know about profile specifics, I guess they'll be documented in the FTTC SIN (498) and I'm not sure if they use the speed profile, I'd expect them to use standard, is there any evidence to back that statement up?

I remembered that people down south get latencies around 5ms on Sky Fibre so I had a quick look and found a traceroute...

In reply to a post by francisuk25:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms SkyRouter [192.168.0.1]
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 9 ms 7 ms 8 ms ip-84-38-37-10.easynet.co.uk [84.38.37.10]
4 * * * Request timed out.
5 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms po-7-0-0.bb1.lon2.uk.m247.com [193.27.64.158]
6 6 ms 5 ms 6 ms 77.243.176.246
7 7 ms 6 ms 6 ms v925-crs4202.logo.serverspace.co.uk [77.246.169.141]
8 6 ms 5 ms 6 ms client-oneprovider.serverspace.co.uk [77.246.174.116]
Trace complete.

I've had a quick look for Zen users getting 5ms (by quick I mean 30 seconds) with this, and haven't found anything that suggests EU's get that sort of latency, so you may find whether or not they do via that, or you could contact them.

Edit: Just noticed that traceroute is in a post-reply directed towards you.

Edited by deleted (Sat 19-Apr-14 20:21:51)

Yes Sky has it's own network topolgy , and routes it's transit data over its own core network,So no BTWolesale backhaul /routing to worry about , that's true,

As for ISP's that opt for the GEA speed DLM profile there are 2 i know of who's support staff have provided that info in their answer when questioned by customers on this and other forums, At first due to Zen having it's own network /POP 's in some exchanges , there was origianaly some confusion as to which profile they chose for their FTTC products because of the way the BT ordering systems work,
which resulted in a bit of a mix up at first due to this below

BTW "Standard" = Openreach "Speed"
BTW "Stable" = Openreach "Standard"
BTW "Superstable" = Openreach "Stable"
confirmation that zen use the speed profile

more if needed for the doubters, So for orders that use BTW backhaul they choose the BTW standard profile which maps to the GEA speed profile , and for some reason i can't quite figure out where they can utilize their own network transit via one of their POP's they place a GEA order using the GEA Standard profile by default, but they from what their support have said are willing to change the dlm profile at anytime, they i would imagine would do it from the get go if they where asked when at the time of order

it would'nt come as a suprise if other's order using the speed option too

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 19-Apr-14 21:24:05)

so is there any advantage/what are the benefits of sky having their own core network? would that benefit ping times more than a speed vs stable profile setting?

This is the only factors that i need to understand to make my decision now. Skys network vs Zens speed profile

Your location being inside the M25 should give you an advantage over someone who lives in another area like Scotland or wales, Sky's routing within it's own network latency should be quite low, how low can depend on distance from the nearest POP and if DLM has applied interleave or not, in your case it has,
as for routing once outside their network (peering) within the uk both will be similar in how traffic is routed and latency , for overseas destinations, i would imagine that they may differ in peering /routing but latency may be quite close between them. as there are a limited amount of options available to any isp

The DLM side of things will basically work based on the error count as well as re syncs in a given time frame, the threshold's will be most stringent on the Stable profile,
So should you be affected by crosstalk,ect DLM would be more aggressive , where as on the speed profile, DLM would still be active,and could still apply interleave, but should be less aggressive if it does act, the Standard profile is supposed to be middle of the road , that's more or less what is known about how it works,

There are lots of permutations too many to give a conclusive answer , I think it's possible for you to see a lower base ping ,if you switch away from BT retail, quite possibly with quite a lot of other isp's as most have data centres in London ,

Without knowing the actual reason's why DLM has intervened what appears to be at least twice without it restoring what it changed at any point, maybe an indication that crosstalk is the underlying reason , if it is, then depending how full the cab is now ,could mean further intervention from DLM as the spare ports get populated by customers, So if that is the case then DLM set to Speed could prove to be beneficial to you, based on that scenario , Just something to perhaps bear in mind

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 19-Apr-14 23:08:15)

appreciate the advise

Can i just ask, why does being inside the M25 benefit me on sky network and not Zens? im just a little confused as to why skys core network is better than that on BTW/BTO (not sure which one lol) used by Zen, plusnet etc

With vectoring supposedly coming into play later this year...? (not sure) im guessing that would bring more stability due to reduced cross talk?

Im edging close to Zen at the moment and the idea of the speed profile possibly resulting in interleaving being reduced than skys core network.

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

appreciate the advise

Can i just ask, why does being inside the M25 benefit me on sky network and not Zens? im just a little confused as to why skys core network is better than that on BTW/BTO (not sure which one lol) used by Zen, plusnet etc

Well there's possibly a greater chance of you being near to a POP belonging to sky or Zen, living near to the centre of London, in particular inside the M25 it's geographically better served by ISP's than other parts of the uk , Easynet now sky POP's which they may of added to since the pdf was published
Zen have a a map of their POP locations although their actual locations are not named
http://www.zen.co.uk/about-us/our-network#pops

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

With vectoring supposedly coming into play later this year...? (not sure) im guessing that would bring more stability due to reduced cross talk?

Vectoring is supposed to enable higher sync speeds by negating some of the affects on lines impacted by crosstalk yes, it may also give a boost to those like yourself who are further away from the cab it may also mean that dlm relents on the amount of interleave/INP it may have applied
As to when BT openreach will deploy it i don't have a crystal ball ,sorry , not a clue on that I'm afraid until they make a proper announcement, but i doubt it will be this year as we are already into month 4 of the year,

Some of the smaller FTTC cabs with ECI Dslams aren't compatible with vectoring , so would need changing ,lots of ££££'s the cabs with the Huawei Dslams installed would only need a firmware update, as would the cpe OR hardware

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

Im edging close to Zen at the moment and the idea of the speed profile possibly resulting in interleaving being reduced than skys core network.

There is always a chance, it may be more likely that it will.But it would depend on how much your line is being impacted by crosstalk(assuming that is the underlying reason for DLM increasing latency) if cross talk levels are causing a error rate that exceeds the speed profile threshold then it's hard to say what it will do, And without knowing for sure which dlm profile BT retail uses ,makes it even more difficult, So don't rely on it there are no guarantees

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Well there's possibly a greater chance of you being near to a POP belonging to sky or Zen, living near to the centre of London, in particular inside the M25 it's geographically better served by ISP's than other parts of the uk , Easynet now sky POP's which they may of added to since the pdf was published
Zen have a a map of their POP locations although their actual locations are not named
http://www.zen.co.uk/about-us/our-network#pops

What i wanted to know about the networks are the difference between sky actually owning their core network and Zen renting it from BTO/BTW (which ever one), is there any actual benefit of this?

Firstly zen uses both it's own(where it has POP's) and BTW for data transit, Sky uses it own only ,
The advantatage if on sky, would be if there were issues on BTW network ,if wouldn't affect you, The same would apply if you were connected to one of Zen's POP's if there was a BT network problem affecting services in your area,or at your exchange with capacity, unless sky /zen where having such issues on their networks , The routing maybe an improvement over what bt can offer depending on your location in the uk

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Vectoring is supposed to enable higher sync speeds by negating some of the affects on lines impacted by crosstalk yes, it may also give a boost to those like yourself who are further away from the cab it may also mean that dlm relents on the amount of interleave/INP it may have applied
As to when BT openreach will deploy it i don't have a crystal ball ,sorry , not a clue on that I'm afraid until they make a proper announcement, but i doubt it will be this year as we are already into month 4 of the year,

BT originally stated that they saw Vectoring as a "speed enabler" rather than a "speed boost".

Having seen the way BT people speak more on the topic, my expectation is that they are likely to deploy vectoring on an "as-needed" basis to areas with high take-up, in order to restore speeds that the early adopters once saw.

Vectoring certainly ought to extend the range of speeds, such that BT can happily add a few extra percent to those it defines as actually capable of getting superfast speeds. However, BT haven't publicly said anything about this prospect.

BT also seems to expect that vectoring will enable a lift of headline speeds to 100Mbps. They don't seem to say this explicitly, but the implication is there amongst graphs showing expected 100Mbps+ capability across the country in the future. My expectation now is that this will happen a way off.

Ireland is in the process of deploying vectoring, and is seeing speeds being boosted to 100Mbps. However, Eircom appears to have been more cautious than BT, and runs FEC+interleaving on every line, so reducing some of the real speeds.

Vectoring probably does cause a reduction in DLM intervention - at least where the interference is being caused by crosstalk. However, DLM is still needed for other sources of noise - so can still turn on FEC and interleaving, causing speed reductions and adding latency.

Luckily, there is a different solution to that: G.INP is another tool that DLM can use, using re-transmission of faulty frames instead of using full-blown FEC and interleaving to solve the problem.

G.INP is something that BT are trialling, and appears to be being deployed in Ireland as well as vectoring.

As far as I can make out, G.INP uses some level of FEC, so swapping to G.INP will not completely restore speeds. However, it ought to improve latency for every unaffected packet, though the re-transmission of erroneous packets will increase jitter a little.

So it's a choice of higher latency = interleave or higher jitter levels=G.INP
Both aren't good choices for someone who plays online games, But i suppose it would depend on how much jitter was created

Edited by tommy45 (Sun 20-Apr-14 14:57:07)

Vectoring or not, im just trying to decide what may be most beneficial to ping times, joining sky (with their own core network) or Zen (with the speed profile set as apposed to stable.

All this looking into who to go with is doing my head in lol

For anyone interested heres my ping graph, not bad considering the length of my copper (although im no expert and cant read alot into this but the basics)

My Broadband Ping

I've not read much into these DLM settings as my line is perfectly fine, but I had a look at tommy45's link, and saw this...

In reply to a post by SkyFire:

Edited as I've got clarification...

BT Wholesale still use the profile names of ADSL - so when we order 'Standard' and BT Wholesale say it's standard what they pass on to Openreach is an order for 'Speed'.

With our GEA FTTC orders we order 'Standard' - so that will be the middle (balanced) profile, rather than 'Speed'..

kind regards,
Phil.

That's someone from Zen saying they order Standard on FTTC if I've correctly interpreted what he said. If you were on the Speed setting you may regularly experience packet loss (much worse than a higher ping) - DLM is there for a reason. Also like I said, I've seen no evidence of Zen users getting latencies as low as Sky, most likely about 3 - 5 ms higher (wouldn't be as much of a difference if you were up north, but your not).

I've said all I can on the matter, best of luck.

Edited by deleted (Sun 20-Apr-14 18:23:12)

But in fairness they will place a GEA order using speed if you request that at the time you placed the order,Zen will also change the DLM profile upto a request ,they have made that known,
Where as the bottom line with sky is they place their GEA orders using the default "Stable" option and are telling their customers that they can't/wont change it at a later date,
As for the latency If the op is close to one of Zen's POP's Ping's may be higher to some locations,but lower to others when compared to Sky or other isp's , if he isn't able to connect at a Zen POP then i would say that they would likely see a small improvement over what they have now, which is what they would likely see on sky,
But as i did say we don't know which DLM profile BT use if it's the same default option ,then unless what ever is the underlying cause for DLM ramping up interleave was to get worse /increase there wouldn't be any further increase in latency likely Where as if the op was on the Standard or speed option , they may at the very least be able to defer further action by DLM , things may improve a little, DLM ain't perfect it likes to over react to events IMO

Don't forget that Sky also upgraded a significant part of their core network to support 100Gbit transmission in 2012 which made it the fastest in the UK at the time.

In some areas, though, Sky do use BT's network to connect exchanges to their nearest POP as was highlighted by the big outage in Wales recently which also took out Sky's broadband services from 12 exchanges as well as BTW's.

just trying to ask BT on the phone to change from stable or standard to speed profile and he's trying to upgrade me from 40/10 to 80/20, he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about, i just want to see if being on 'speed' profile actually makes a difference, if it doesnt then that would rule out moving to zen for me and ill just go with sky.

Appreciate everyones help.

Kept going around in circles there over who to go with.

Thanks again.

AFAIK BT Infinity is on Speed profile already.

is it really? I may go with sky then if this doesnt get resolved.

didnt think anyone knew, as most people have said they dont give out that information and let people know what profile they're on, regardless, the BT guy kept on relating back to actual download speeds as appose to ping and the dlm profile he thought i wanted 80/20 package.

Finally got through to someone english and they ran some tests and said there was something wrong with the profile and they will resolve it and call me back in the next 48 hours which should bump my speed up to what it should be (around 35-36Mbps he said) and this should also see my ping return to what it used to be before.

Ill try this out for a week or so, if its no better then i may change to sky.

I expect it is, as I'm on Fastpath.
If I was on a "stable" profile, I would expect to be on Interleaving.
If I was on "super-stable" I would expect to have a high level of Interleaving applied.

i dont think thats how it works, im pretty sure it just alters the thresholds needed to be reached for each level of interleaving to kick in, super stable a lower threshold etc. so on a super good line, right on top of the cabinet on super stable id still imagine it would be on fast path

I find that unlikely in the extreme as adding/removing Interleaving willy-nilly would lead to an unstable connection.

well from all the reading up ive done im pretty certain thats how its done. it has a threshold, if your line falls below that it reduces interleaving/turns it off. If your line then goes above this threshold again it will then reapply interleaving. That IS how its done

DLM (Dynamic line management) the hints in the name

Edited by deleted (Mon 21-Apr-14 13:39:51)

What I'm saying is the transition from Interleaving to Fastpath would need a resynch which would not be "stable" by any definition. On a "stable" profile, the transition would be pointless.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I expect it is, as I'm on Fastpath.
If I was on a "stable" profile, I would expect to be on Interleaving.
If I was on "super-stable" I would expect to have a high level of Interleaving applied.

This doesnt appear to be what you were saying. What you expect to what actually happens are two different things, i understand your point about needing to re sync, but just because someone is on a stable profile, doesnt mean their line is interleaved, if they have short copper distance and low noise/cross talk, they would likely also be on fast path

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I expect it is, as I'm on Fastpath.
If I was on a "stable" profile, I would expect to be on Interleaving.
If I was on "super-stable" I would expect to have a high level of Interleaving applied.

This doesnt appear to be what you were saying.

This is exactly what I'm saying. There is no point in being on Fastpath if you are expecting a stable connection as any noise-burst would cause instability, even a one-off bulb blowing on your lighting circuit, whereas an Interleaved connection would correct that.

but the fact is, thats not the case, as sky uses stable, and some people are on fast path with them so...i dont understand what point you're making...

DLM profile doesnt determine if interleaving is on or off, it just changes the threshold.

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

DLM profile doesnt determine if interleaving is on or off

What does, in your opinion?

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

but the fact is, thats not the case, as sky uses stable,

I doubt that's true.

As i said, the hint is in the name, DYNAMIC line management

Also, again, as i said before, it is the line error and connection drops thresholds that are altered between the 3 profiles, making interleaving kick in at a lower threshold on stable than on speed.

Interleaving is set by DLMs data of the line and adds interleaving when required hence "dynamic" as the amount of interleaving can vary or even turn on/off when required, as if a line has a line fault, dlm will kick in and turn interleaving on (as stated by many BT, sky and other isp technicians on their respected forums), once the line issue is resolved, it takes it off if the line allows for it.

What youre saying is each profile has a fixed interleaving/fast path setting which is just completely wrong.

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

Interleaving is set by DLMs data of the line and adds interleaving when required hence "dynamic" as the amount of interleaving can vary or even turn on/off when required, as if a line has a line fault, dlm will kick in and turn interleaving on

Sorry, this seems to be the opposite of what you said earlier

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

DLM profile doesnt determine if interleaving is on or off

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

dlm will kick in and turn interleaving on (as stated by many BT, sky and other isp technicians on their respected forums)

This I think illustrates the error you're making. Everyone is on Speed.

I think Hoolday88 is more correct, interleaving and fast path are not directly linked to the three profiles. I think each profile has differing allowable levels of errors before interleaving or higher levels of interleaving are applied.

My line regularly switches between fast past and interleaving, and I'm pretty certain no ones altering my line profile

I'm sure someone who has a much better understanding of things will be along to explain it better

Edit: According to this post from 2012 Zen do put people on the speed profile by default

Edited by R0NSKI (Mon 21-Apr-14 15:28:19)

im not going to debate it any more with you, as ive explained as simply as i can and you're still either misreading or misunderstanding what im saying.

I seriously doubt Fastpath is available on anything other than "Speed".

I'm sorry, but if you want to contradict yourself, don't blame me.

Reminder about the reality of DLM on Openreach FTTC

Explains some of the basics as to how DLM on FTTC works, As said it's all about error rate thresholds, I have read about cases where DLM has eventually applied banding and removed interleave, leaving them with a slower speed , and a lower ping

It will be a reason why all FTTC connections start off with DLM in wide open mode

Batboy, I'm 100% sure you have this wrong, and I'm sure someone like WWWombat will be along tomorrow to explain.

Interleaving is applied if your line is experiencing errors, if you have very little or no errors you will be on fast path, regardless of the profile.

If the errors increase then interleaving will be applied, now it makes sense to me that these trigger levels are different for the three profiles, stable, standard, and speed. With each one of those profiles allowing slightly more errors before interleaving is applied or a higher level of interleaving,as there are many levels of interleaving.

I'm also going to leave it as that.

Thanks Tommy45,

In all three modes the system will tune the connection, setting fast or interleaved mode for error correction and once in interleave mode vary the depth of interleaving, the deeper the interleave the more tolerant the line is to errors at the expense of increasing latency and some throughput speed.

Which clearly implies all profiles can be either fast path or interleaved depending on the level of errors.

Unfortunately, Forward Error Correction needs Interleaving to be applied before errors happen and this can only be so if the line is not on Fastpath. Therefore a "stable" profile requires Interleaving not Fastpath.

Edited by deleted (Mon 21-Apr-14 15:56:57)

Well the "wide open" setting that is used at the start or following a DLM reset by an engineer or changing from 40/10 to 80/20 apparently causes a DLM reset too,
That starts out using fastpath, IMO the differences between the dlm profiles is that the stable error threshold will be the lowest out of the 3 , and the number of resync's it before it would deem as a fault would again be the lowest number out of the 3 profiles
The stable profile may also be the least likely to ever restore fastpath , it may also reduce sync in bigger chunks and apply deeper interleave levels ect than the other 2 So be seen as the most aggressive

The speed profile should have the highest error rate threshold out of the 3 and if it did apply banding being on this profile should provide the greatest chance of removal of interleave,
So being on this profile may offer some advantage if your line is affected occasionally by REIN or is affected by increasing levels of crosstalk , in that it would presumably be the last profile to intervene ,but the first to remove interleave , the increments that dlm increases latency by may differ to between profiles

The standard profile will as as described a balance between to 2 , somewhere in between ??

Edited by tommy45 (Mon 21-Apr-14 16:15:50)

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I'm sorry, but if you want to contradict yourself, don't blame me.

Where's the contradiction?

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I'm sorry, but if you want to contradict yourself, don't blame me.

Where's the contradiction?

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4323569-pin...

i still dont see where i contradicted myself, its pretty clear, the DLM itself will decide if and how much interleaving to apply/not to apply from the live data it reads from the individuals connection, the DLM PROFILE does not determine this, only the threshold.

Please read carefully, hopefully this explains it clearly for you.

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

i still dont see where i contradicted myself, its pretty clear, the DLM itself will decide if and how much interleaving to apply/not to apply from the live data it reads from the individuals connection, the DLM PROFILE does not determine this, only the threshold.

Please read carefully, hopefully this explains it clearly for you.

I already covered that here http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4323595-pin...

but from all the replies on all the forums regarding this topic, your opinion seems to be alone...im not trying to say i know everything, my knowledge is extremely limited but im just saying how i and most other people have interpreted the information available regarding DLM profiles and interleaving etc

Given this:

BTW "Standard" = Openreach "Speed"
BTW "Stable" = Openreach "Standard"
BTW "Superstable" = Openreach "Stable"

I believe everyone is on this by default:

BTW "Standard" = Openreach "Speed"

Further, I believe that it's only on this profile that Fastpath is possible.

I have discussed above why I believe this.

any links to sources to say all isp's use the speed profile?

If not, then i cant count on assumptions. Although mine view of different isp's possibly using different profiles is also an assumption, this is the whole reason of my questions to try and find out.

You believe, but Hoolay, tommy and my opinions all seem to differ from yours.

I agree with what Tommy has said here, which also appears to me as to what hoolay is saying to.

My interpretation is that all three profiles can be on Fast path.

Speed will allow more errors before going to interleaving, or increasing it.
Standard will allow a few less errors before going to interleaving, or increasing it.
Stable will allow the least amount of errors before using interleaving, or increasing it.

You get errors regardless of being on fast path or not, they are just different types of errors.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

You believe, but Hoolay, tommy and my opinions all seem to differ from yours.

Really? Wow...

leave him believe in his assumptions. ill just chose not to listen to them when deciding between zen and sky. IF all isp's do turn out to use the speed profile, then i believe ill end up going with sky, however if sky use standard or stable, then i'll most likely go with zen, just need to try and find out from someone who actually knows. going to have a look on skys forums

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that Forward Error Correction requires Interleaving to be already on.

I agree, I've posted a question in the main forum, hopefully well get some sensible answers with some decent reasoning.

I'm not, I know you only get FEC errors with interleaving on, but what's that got to do with it? To save derailing this thread any further I've started a topic on this, please post your reply there.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

I'm not, I know you only get FEC errors with interleaving on, but what's that got to do with it?

You need Interleaving on already or the first error will cause a resync.

You really need to go back to basics! I'm on fast path, yet I have errors, but I haven't resynced for 4 days 15 hours! An error will not cause a resync!

Since the last resync I have:

6 SES error seconds (One error counter that considered to be watched by the DLM)
6057 error seconds
10062 CRC errors
55973 HEC errors
0 FEC erros.

I also have 28 upstream FEC errors on fast path

This really is the last post in this thread relating to this, you obviously can't do the decent thing and carry on in the thread I made relating to this, but I can.

I still haven't seen any current reference to this "Speed" profile in any BT Openreach or Wholesale documentation. Unless I've developed a blind spot somewhere in SIN 498. As I remember earlier versions of it, there were some profiles available, but not a "speed" one.

I think I have an earlier one with that information in it downloaded on an old computer. I shall go and switch it on, but it takes 25 minutes to boot, then there will be months of updates to apply. Plus I'm about to make my dinner.

One of my concerns is that Hoolay appears most of the time to be making making statements of fact. I believe he is making reasonable deductions from stuff he has found on the internet and in these forums - which as we know may not be totally reliable - but I'm not sure everything he says is correct.

Back later ....

Just because it isn't included in the Sin 498 doc doesn't mean that the 3 GEA DLM options are no longer available,Last year there are reports posts made by ISP reps on here and other forums regarding this very subject dated DEC 13 By a Plusnet rep
And if have linked to an what appears to be an upto date BT handbook that makes a reference to the said profiles

Maybe a rep from Plusnet or Zen may kindly provide upto date info ?

Edited by tommy45 (Mon 21-Apr-14 20:10:28)

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

You really need to go back to basics! I'm on fast path, yet I have errors, but I haven't resynced for 4 days 15 hours! An error will not cause a resync!

It will to turn Interleaving on.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

Batboy, I'm 100% sure you have this wrong, and I'm sure someone like WWWombat will be along tomorrow to explain.

I'm afraid that Batboy has it wrong, and the others have it right.

Having a "stable" profile does not mean that you *must* have interleaving turned on. Instead it means that, when DLM monitors your line, it has a reduced threshold for deciding whether to turn on FEC/interleaving, and has further reduced thresholds for deciding whether to turn the settings for FEC/interleaving up.

In the end, what the situation comes down to is an error rate. A "stable" line is one with a very low tolerance for errors. If your line is so perfect, and suffers no errors, then it has every right to be considered stable with a fastpath.

Unfortunately I don't know (like most people) what the thresholds are for FTTC setups. But I have seen the tables that describe the settings for 21CN... and it is very clear that the difference is indeed in the thresholds.

21CN Thresholds

I'm also going to leave it as that.

I can understand that. I've just got one more post to make, then I'll do the same...

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that Forward Error Correction requires Interleaving to be already on.

Incorrect.

Interleaving certainly makes FEC more effective for protection against longer noise bursts. And when DLM intervenes, and asks for impulse noise protection for multiple symbols, modems turn on both the FEC (for protection) *and* interleaving (to extend the protection).

However, the FEC process can work perfectly without the presence of interleaving. It can protect against small, short, bursts of noise.

Right now, my Openreach FTTC modem is not required (by DLM) to introduce FEC or interleaving: both INP values are set to zero, and delay is set to zero. However, the modem has negotiated with the DSLAM to turn on FEC in the upstream direction, while leaving interleaving turned off. Other people have reported similar settings from the Openreach modem.

In the 64 days that my link has been synchronised, I have 117k upstream FEC errors, and 8k upstream CRC errors - so my upstream is being partially protected by FEC, but not fully. ES is at 6k.

So my modem is running FEC without interleaving, and it is working.

Downstream, DLM has placed the same requirements, and the modem has negotiated both FEC and interleaving to be off. On that link, I have 315k CRC errors, no FEC, and 33k ES.

From the requirements that SIN 498 places on modems, it can be seen that DLM monitors the rate of change to ES rather than the CRC.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

You need Interleaving on already or the first error will cause a resync.

But with 64 days of connection time, and having lots of CRCs and ESs, it is clear that the first error does *not* cause a resync, and has not turned interleaving on.

It is when the number of ES's gets too high in a 24 hour period (or, in the terminology of my threshold table in my previous post, when the "mean time between errors", MTBE, gets too low) that DLM will intervene - which will cause a resync.

Interestingly, a change of "profile" from "stable" to "speed" is only a change to the way in which DLM looks at your line's statistics. Strictly, there is no need for your line to be forced to resync for that to happen... However, I bet that such a change will cause DLM to be reset back to scratch, so it starts all monitoring again. It seems that such a reset always triggers a resync anyway.

Edited by deleted (Tue 22-Apr-14 03:11:29)

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I expect it is, as I'm on Fastpath.
If I was on a "stable" profile, I would expect to be on Interleaving.
If I was on "super-stable" I would expect to have a high level of Interleaving applied.

not quite.

as I understand it all 3 profiles will start you off the same, so fast path with no banding.

The difference is the latter 2 have lower thresholds that can be hit before action is taken, so eg. on speed 10 drops a day might be needed to be bumped to interleaving whilst on super stable it might just be 2. Similiar with errors required as well.

So a decent line probably wouldnt see a difference between speed and stable whilst a dodgy line might.

Thank you for clarifying that.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I expect it is, as I'm on Fastpath.
If I was on a "stable" profile, I would expect to be on Interleaving.
If I was on "super-stable" I would expect to have a high level of Interleaving applied.

not quite.

as I understand it all 3 profiles will start you off the same, so fast path with no banding.

So at the first sign of errors a "super-stable" line will resync?

Not exactly my definition of "super-stable" TBH. I would expect no resyncs at all.

by the way I do agree that the implementation of DLM is silly. I dont think its right DLM forces a resync to enforce settings, in my view it should wait until the line drops of its own accord or do the resync actually during an error burst (when its needed, not hours later). But thats openreach for you.

Edited by Chrysalis (Tue 22-Apr-14 22:45:15)

It would better still if they gave the option for it to stay on a wide open mode,(no dlm) as there will be some lines that only suffer ocasional issues, so the line may stay on fast path and a full sync for week's months or longer before dlm will apply interleaving and reduction in sync, for several weeks ,before restoring things to how they where before it, waded in for no real reason, as the punter wasn't seeing any effects no packetloss or failed downloads,broken streams ect, and could of continued without any problem for a lot longer

Edited by tommy45 (Tue 22-Apr-14 23:08:47)

It will resync anytime if things are severe enough, we had an almost unusable connection at work once. It was working fine and then it wax reduced to virtually nothing, massive packet drop and almost no throughput. It then resynced about 13:30 and all was a lot better, it may of resycned again that night as well.

In reply to a post by Hoolay88:

leave him believe in his assumptions. ill just chose not to listen to them when deciding between zen and sky. IF all isp's do turn out to use the speed profile, then i believe ill end up going with sky, however if sky use standard or stable, then i'll most likely go with zen, just need to try and find out from someone who actually knows. going to have a look on skys forums

I found the answer for you, Sky use OR Stable.

In reference to www.skyuser.co.uk/forum/sky-broadband-fibre-help/53431-reminder-abo...:

Re: Reminder about the reality of DLM on Openreach FTTC

Update:

After Speedyrite and myself questioned Sky over this, we have finally got an answer.

Sky uses the defaut setting 'Stable' and you cannot request to have this changed.

thanks, yea i found that out, actually from the same person who posted that. the middle option is what they use, think ill most likely be going with zen then as they use the speed profile.

That's not the middle option. That's the last option.

BTW "Standard" = Openreach "Speed"
BTW "Stable" = Openreach "Standard"
BTW "Superstable" = Openreach "Stable"

it is the middle option that is used that they were talking about

http://helpforum.sky.com/t5/Fibre-Broadband/What-DLM...

See the first reply, it was him along with scubbie and a few others who were the ones who got the answer from sky

Edited by deleted (Wed 23-Apr-14 17:07:40)

Sky don't use BTW.

the answers still the same....its from the same people who you're getting your info from to back up your claim that its the super stable/stable profile, which he clearly indicates here is not the case....it is the middle profile, stable/standard

The answer I posted says "stable" which is the last option. Would you like me to put that in "bold"?

are you just slow? seriously, you said stable from someone who ive actually been direct messaging and was talking to on that forum and on the official sky forum link that i posted, speedy was another who along with scubbie were the ones who got the answer from sky as to what profile they use. The answer, as seen in his reply in my link and confirmed by the following reply from the sky admin, says it is the middle standard/stable profile.

Could you kindly stop giving your input into something you're just speculating over, ive had my response from sky, through formums and direct messages so i no longer require your guess work thanks.

The answer you're looking at is where he says

Anyway, I think the outcome was that..

however, later on he remembered and posted the link to the actual answer, which I quoted.

There's no speculation involved.

Edited by deleted (Wed 23-Apr-14 17:26:23)

i just question and confirmed you are right about the profile, however it wasnt stated in his actual answer before, he just said stable so just to confirm what 'stable' he ment i asked.
This has now pushed me even further away from wanting to go with sky if it means ill likely be faced with a higher level of interleaving (1000m copper line atm)

1000m from the cabinet?

It's incredible how important this DLM profile thing is. No-one seems to really understand what it is or how it actually works, yet people use it as part of their decision-making when selecting an ISP

Edited by deleted (Wed 23-Apr-14 18:38:30)

because i live 1000m (yea RobertoS i live 1000m from my fibre cabinet) from the cabinet and have interleaving already, i do not want to move to an ISP that uses a profile that is more strict about errors etc and more likely to force a higher level of interleaving on me, increasing me ping time even more....

Edited by deleted (Wed 23-Apr-14 19:11:24)

You should be ok with Zen. Once they realised their marketing error in setting everyone up as "Standard", they now choose "Speed". Obviously you'd be better on their own backhaul if it's available at your exchange, otherwise you'll have to make do with BTW.

Just had a read of the sky thread you linked to What DLM profile do sky chose for their FTTC?

And they appear to be getting somewhat confused ,regarding the product names and what those products actually are ie FTTC or ADSL

Sky broadband PRO is i'm sure ADSL with static IP and talk about there being several line management profiles for those migrants from BE /02 who had a static IP
So will only apply changes within sky's network similar to what be customers had

Sky VDSL2 (Fibre unlimited pro) the only changes made to that are customers now have the option of having a static ip,

As it's a BTOR GEA product they will retain full control via their DLM , Sky will not be able to gain any control over that in the foreseeable future , and probably continue to place new orders using the BTOR stable dlm option, which they are even adamant can't be changed,lol , more like they wont change it , to save on support calls or so they think

And if you think about this logically If BTOR where to allow sky to have such control over their DLM BTOR would have no other option than offer the same access to all ISP's and possibly BTW , Otherwise it would be deemed as anti competive, and seeing there has not been any talk about this by any ISP , it ain't gonna be happening , and someone somewhere at sky has got their wires well and trully crossed and this talk of LPM's applies to their ADSL pro product and nothing else

ISP's being able to have control or overide DLM would be wellcome news for many people, it would possibly increase take up as well , there's lots of online gamers out there that rely on lowest possible latency

Edited by tommy45 (Wed 23-Apr-14 20:14:02)

That's not what it says here

In reference to www.sky.com/shop/your-move-to-sky/broadband-pro/:

Static IP address

New: With either Sky Broadband Pro product, you can request a static IP address. This can be really useful if you are hosting your own server for gaming or even your own personal website. Already have a static IP address with O2 or BE? No problem - we will automatically set up a new one for you.

Line profile customisation

Coming Soon: Change your line profile for speed or reliability with either Sky Broadband Pro product. Sky Broadband Unlimited Pro even has a gaming mode, so you can enhance your gaming experience too.

Static IP address and line profile customisation features can be managed in My Sky.

Looks like you're the one getting confused. More edits required?

Edited by deleted (Wed 23-Apr-14 20:04:00)

on a DLM labeled as "speed" if its not severe enough to warrant a instant resync then in my view it shouldnt then be severe enough to warrant action at all, so by what you just said DLM is sort of like "ok there is a minor problem on the line so I will leave it alone until the morning but then drop the line and slow it down anayway for this minor problem".

Whilst someone on a "speed" profile would be someone willing to ignore issues that are "not severe".

Not only ignore them but quite a few probably wouldn't notice any adverse effects prior to DLM's meddling , which could be considered unnecessary or a overreaction

I really think "speed" should be fastpath-only, "stable" should be interleaved-only and "standard" should be the one that flip-flops between fastpath and interleaved. It doesn't make sense that all 3 are virtually the same, there seems to be no advantage in choosing one.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

That's not what it says here

In reference to www.sky.com/shop/your-move-to-sky/broadband-pro/:

Static IP address

New: With either Sky Broadband Pro product, you can request a static IP address. This can be really useful if you are hosting your own server for gaming or even your own personal website. Already have a static IP address with O2 or BE? No problem - we will automatically set up a new one for you.

Line profile customisation



Coming Soon: Change your line profile for speed or reliability with either Sky Broadband Pro product. Sky Broadband Unlimited Pro even has a gaming mode, so you can enhance your gaming experience too.

Static IP address and line profile customisation features can be managed in My Sky.

Looks like you're the one getting confused. More edits required?

Yes had a read of the small print But Sky fibre pro , is only mentioned once i think, and sky broadband pro is mentioned several times So to me the info in this web page is for SK broadband pro products which doesnt include FTTC , therefore an error on sky's part or misinformation here is sky's main page and the small print what you quoted from

Where is says

Change your line profile for speed or reliability with either Sky Broadband Pro product

there's only 2 on the page.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

You should be ok with Zen. Once they realised their marketing error in setting everyone up as "Standard", they now choose "Speed". Obviously you'd be better on their own backhaul if it's available at your exchange, otherwise you'll have to make do with BTW.

would it make much difference being on BTW backhaul rather than Zens?

my local exchange is cricklewood (north west london) which doesnt have a PoP but an exchange about 1-2 miles away does, closer to central london.

I'm aware the BTW have had problem with capacity recently, so that would be the only issue you would be exposed to. Although saying that, anyone's backhaul can fill up, and BT seems to increase capacity fairly quickly. This is one of the advantages of Sky having their own backhaul and not being exposed to BT's massive customer increase. I'm not sure how Zen route the various exchanges with their own POP's

BTOR won't be giving sky or any ISP control over it's DLM or allow them to modify the default set up on its GEA FTTC products, That is assuming that it's even a possibilty for this to be implemented remotely any fttc cab , marketing spiel /hype and nothing more ,
otherwise we would of heard something about this being offered by BTOR from another ISP if & when they do offer this, they will offer it to all isp's not just sky,
But hey if you wanna belive the hype from sky,don't let me stop ya

How do you know? Emails from Liv perhaps?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

How do you know? Emails from Liv perhaps?

Well if a DLM reset still requires an engineer visit to the cab, how would they be able to offer access to any isp ?

As every ISP will admit they have no direct control over BTOR's DLM the only form of control they do have is to be able to choose one of three GEA DLM profiles at time of order, or infact at anytime afterwards If this is something that BTOR are going to implement other isp's would be talking about it ,

Facts are none have been, go on ring around isp's ask them ,

Sky have failed to omit a clerical error, or they are intent on delibrately decieving potential new customers , that bit only sky will know the answer to well you would hope they would

Edited by tommy45 (Wed 23-Apr-14 22:38:13)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Sky have failed to omit a clerical error, or ....

Uh?

In reply to a post by tommy45:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

How do you know? Emails from Liv perhaps?

Well if a DLM reset still requires an engineer visit to the cab,

I'm guessing you're not on fibre. A DLM reset only involves a phone call, not a cab visit.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Sky have failed to omit a clerical error, or ....

Uh?

I'm afraid his judgement is clouded by a red mist over Sky's purchase of UKO.

In reference to www.sky.com/shop/your-move-to-sky/broadband-pro/:

Coming Soon: Change your line profile for speed or reliability with either Sky Broadband Pro product. Sky Broadband Unlimited Pro even has a gaming mode, so you can enhance your gaming experience too.

Static IP address and line profile customisation features can be managed in My Sky.

That to me reads like they are referring to the 3 profiles, stable, standard and speed.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

It doesn't make sense that all 3 are virtually the same, there seems to be no advantage in choosing one.

It makes sense to me, it's the error thresholds that are different.

But not yet, and the (edit - Sky) default is ????

Presumably OR-standard.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 23-Apr-14 23:54:51)

No, speed http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4323677-re-...

Umm .
I think the post I replied to was about Sky, which doesn't access BTW and has no current mechanism for Openreach DLM Profile selection. Which is why I said that. I've edited to make that clearer.

Sky choose "Stable".

Sky uses Openreach GEA The same as Talk talk and Zen use and all have 3 dlm profile options available to them when they process their orders for FTTC
These profiles can also be changed anytime after the order has completed it's possible that such changes are not chargable to the cp /isp by Openreach
Sky selects Stable And so far seems to be against changing that for customers, by telling them it cant be changed when it clearly can be
Yes the default option by BTOR would be the Standard should the ISP not express any preference and enter it into the order system
Plusnet and zen are 2 isp's that are known to select the speed profile , and have offered the option to change that should a customer request it I would assume that all the smaller isp's will offer this choice to customers too,

Edited by tommy45 (Thu 24-Apr-14 00:20:04)

BT also selects Speed as discussed earlier

Have we any evidence or (incontrovertibly correct) factual links please that any ISP actively chooses any BT Wholesale option rather than accepting the default? May we be in the middle of propagating more internet myths?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

BT also selects Speed as discussed earlier

If that is the case i'm suprised that they would choose the speed option, Personally i would think they would go for the standard or stable options, due to their wonder, sorry woefull support provided from afar

That is the default, no thinking required.

I've seen no evidence. Only forum posts by people who are unlikely to "know for a fact". Only surmise; conjecture; opinion or deduction. False Authority Syndrome?

Where are the quotes from the BT Wholesale Handbook for instance? Where are the Openreach options specified? Have we any links at all to relevant documents?

It's in the links already posted.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I really think "speed" should be fastpath-only, "stable" should be interleaved-only and "standard" should be the one that flip-flops between fastpath and interleaved. It doesn't make sense that all 3 are virtually the same, there seems to be no advantage in choosing one.

probably your best post in this thread.

sadly common sense seems lacking in openreach. They dont like the end user having choice, they always know best is their mentality.

The problem is openreach use DLM as a way to hide faults. In their eyes if interleaving masks a problem then the line has no fault.

Whilst i can't be sure what sky was referering to in regards their statement made in their advert on their web site, But i found this somewhat interesting

Info about BTOR giving some control on FTTC to ISP's

Although it is only at at talking stage at this time, and it maybe years away,If it ever happens So if sky where using a distant possibilty in their ads for FTTC that is missleading at the very least,

Lol, they pretend they're not the same company - "our suppliers". Only fooling themselves