FTTP Phone line

I am moving soon and the property is FTTP only, I have contacted Zen and the can supply me broadband only as there is no phone line, they are telling me that only BT can do the phone and broadband together, has anybody else come across this issue and what did you do ? I could just use my mobile but would like the option of a phone line
Openreach exchange data

We are with BT so when FTTP became available to order we moved everything over to it, including the phone line.

The main reason for moving everything over to fibre was our copper line is in very poor state and there not being any spare good pairs left.
Also every time it become windy or it rained heavy we lost broadband (ADSL2+) and then our phone line.

So now our copper line is terminated at the first BT junction box (BT-80) and our Master Socket is connected to our ONT and we have had no issues since.

You could look around to see what phone provider supplies FVA (Fibre Voice Access) I am sure there are some out there.

Paul

In reply to a post by idmanager:

I am moving soon and the property is FTTP only, I have contacted Zen and the can supply me broadband only as there is no phone line, they are telling me that only BT can do the phone and broadband together, has anybody else come across this issue and what did you do ? I could just use my mobile but would like the option of a phone line
Openreach exchange data

I assume Zen have told you that they can't supply a voice service over FTTP like BT Retail can (called FVA). However there's plenty of third party VOIP services which you can run over FTTP such as Vonage. Cheaper as well than a traditional landline over copper or BT's FVA service

Edited by deleted (Thu 25-Jul-19 18:23:08)

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

You could look around to see what phone provider supplies FVA (Fibre Voice Access) I am sure there are some out there.

Only BTR consume FVA from OR today, and Wholesale refused to sell it to SPs, so it was killed before it could be taken up.

Openreach have (now publicly) announced a stop sell on FVA from March 2020, so don't expect it to be around in a couple of years.

IP Voice via a pure SIP or router integrated ATA is likely to be the norm, and aligns with the WLR close-down strategy.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

However there's plenty of third party VOIP services which you can run over FTTP such as Vonage. Cheaper as well than a traditional landline over copper or BT's FVA service

TalkTalk all day land line and mobile on FTTC costs £6.50/month. Equivalent Vonage package £12/month

In reply to a post by Blmcg:

Openreach have (now publicly) announced a stop sell on FVA from March 2020, so don't expect it to be around in a couple of years.

Thanks, that probably explains why the voice port no longer exists on the latest ONT (1+0).

In reply to a post by burble:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

However there's plenty of third party VOIP services which you can run over FTTP such as Vonage. Cheaper as well than a traditional landline over copper or BT's FVA service

TalkTalk all day land line and mobile on FTTC costs £6.50/month. Equivalent Vonage package £12/month

But how much would TalkTalk charge you for a standalone landline + unlimited landline/mobile calls? Pretty sure it would be considerably more than 12 notes p/m , just like BT Retail's offering.

Is it Talk Talk FTTP then ?

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

In reply to a post by burble:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

However there's plenty of third party VOIP services which you can run over FTTP such as Vonage. Cheaper as well than a traditional landline over copper or BT's FVA service

TalkTalk all day land line and mobile on FTTC costs £6.50/month. Equivalent Vonage package £12/month

But how much would TalkTalk charge you for a standalone landline + unlimited landline/mobile calls? Pretty sure it would be considerably more than 12 notes p/m , just like BT Retail's offering.

My point was that Vonage and such like are charging considerably more to add a comprehensive phone package to FTTP than TalkTalk charge to add a similar package to FTTC or ADSL. There was once a time when VOIP was the cheap option, at least when phoning overseas, not sure this is still the case.

I have FTTP and ported my phone number to sipgate - there is no monthly charge and I just pay the call rate (around 1p/min for UK landlines) with an occasional auto top-up when my credit falls below £5. You can also buy monthly unlimited call packages if you prefer.

I connected my existing DECT phone via a CISCO SPA122 adapter which is connected to my router.

In reply to a post by burble:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

In reply to a post by burble:

... nested quotes trimmed ...

TalkTalk all day land line and mobile on FTTC costs £6.50/month. Equivalent Vonage package £12/month

But how much would TalkTalk charge you for a standalone landline + unlimited landline/mobile calls? Pretty sure it would be considerably more than 12 notes p/m , just like BT Retail's offering.

My point was that Vonage and such like are charging considerably more to add a comprehensive phone package to FTTP than TalkTalk charge to add a similar package to FTTC or ADSL. There was once a time when VOIP was the cheap option, at least when phoning overseas, not sure this is still the case.

But you can't take out a call package on TT without line rental. Last time i checked TT line rental was £15+ p/m, so in total you're paying £20+ p/m. Helluva lot more than £12/m.

Edited by deleted (Thu 25-Jul-19 20:42:35)

I ported my landline number to Voipfone. They were very helpful avoiding a problem with my Gigaclear router. Problem went completely when Gigaclear reconfigured the router. I have a Gigaset DECT base station and mainly Gigaset C430 phones.

Hi @idmanager

The plan is from 2025 that there will be no more analogue telephone service from BT Openreach, so everyone will need to switch over to some form of VoIP service before then. If you have only FTTP available, Openreach are not going to install over the top of that any copper wire telephone service as it is going be withdrawn.

It might seem then that FTTP is a disadvantage in one way because you lose the ability to have an analogue telephone line, but really, you are ahead of the game, and will avoid the panic some people will have in 2025 of trying to port their number and set up some sort of VoIP.

So you either not bother with a telephone number for the property at all and just use your mobiles, or if reception is not good, perhaps see if you can use your phones with Wi-Fi calling (essentially VoIP using your mobile number), or alternatively buy one of the many VoIP DECT handsets available and sign up to a VoIP service. If its the case you only want a local number for incoming calls or as an alternative for family/friends to use to get you in an emergency or to be able to call local rate from their end, SipGate give you a free local number at no cost for incoming calls.

Regards

Phil

Sky's new SR203 router has a builtin ATA which is being used by those taking part in their current SOGEA trial and I guess also when they start offering FTTP.

"and will avoid the panic some people will have in 2025 of trying to port their number and set up some sort of VoIP"

You are creating the panic dare I say, the existing retailers of phone services will be keen to retain custom so will be consuming the voice over broadband product. So need for the vast majority to worry about setting up VoIP the plan is the retailers will handle all of this, in the same way that most people know nothing about VPI/VCI settings and just plug their broadband router in.

What that person said.

Hi

Your not serious surely ~27 million or so land lines in the UK needing to transition over to VoIP, and what percentage of those people are going to read my post for it to create real panic? I'd love to think my words reach enough people I could be considered an influencer, but in reality what I say has no impact in the telecoms sector, or anywhere else for that matter.

Perhaps I should feel flattered.

Anyway, to rephrase it then, getting VoIP now and losing the landline, just means you can sit smugly in the knowledge you are all set for the switch over and need to do nothing more and you are ahead of the curve.

Phil

From the prices given by the recommended providers mentioned in this thread, getting VIOP now is just a way of spending double your money if you want a comprehensive service. I'll be keeping an eye on what Sky and TalkTalk can offer when they get in on the act, or finding a way of improving my mobile service.

Spending double?

Voice over broadband e.g. SOGEA on a 40/10 package is likely to come at the same price point and FTTC 40/10 and line rental.

Back when this site was ADSLguide and did modem reviews, off the back of one of those reviews I brought a Zoom modem with socket to plug phone in and make VOIP calls, at the time it was by far the cheapest way to phone family members around the world. Times have moved on and haven't used VOIP for years relying on emails, sms, and Skype calls for international and cheap packages for UK calls.

As I will be moving to FTTP, this thread atracted my interest, there are several suggestions for VOIP providers, so looked them up as I will be needing something to replace my TalkTalk anytime UK landline/mobile call package which costs £6.50 a month, I can't find anything even close. Maybe you could direct me towards a similar value package?

Thank you for all the reply, it makes me wonder why all the talk about FTTP that this issue has not been pointed out, i think for the time i will just get signed up with Zen and use my mobile, when FTTP is more available the whole phone and broadband package will be one I will upgrade

Edited by idmanager (Sat 27-Jul-19 14:07:43)

In reply to a post by burble:

As I will be moving to FTTP, this thread atracted my interest, there are several suggestions for VOIP providers, so looked them up as I will be needing something to replace my TalkTalk anytime UK landline/mobile call package which costs £6.50 a month, I can't find anything even close. Maybe you could direct me towards a similar value package?

As I said earlier you're not currently paying just £6.50/m for the voice part on TalkTalk, there's also the voice line rental which you're paying (at least £15 /m). So the total cost is £20+ /m which is considerably more than what VOIP providers charge for a similar voice package. Just because TalkTalk (& other ISPs) no longer show the line rental charge separately, it doesn't mean its magically disappeared. This is down to an ASA ruling from 2016 (see here) which states that broadband providers must include the line rental in their monthly pricing.

Btw the cheapest VOIP service with unlimited landline/mobile calls i can think of is Sipgate @ £9.95 /m, around half the cost of your TalkTalk service (incl line rental).

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

there's also the voice line rental which you're paying (at least £15 /m).

To be honest I think its difficult to say how much you actually pay for a telephone service nowadays because of the combine pricing for both broadband and telephone services from one supplier. When I was last checking out some prices I did only see a £2 /m difference between broadband with and without a telephone services.

In reply to a post by dect:

When I was last checking out some prices I did only see a £2 /m difference between broadband with and without a telephone services.

Prices here include the optional £10.00 per month for a copper pair

I agree, now that providers must show an all inclusive price it can sometimes be difficult to see how much you're paying for the line rental component.

However looking at BT's voice only prices, they're showing a monthly rental price of £19.99 /m and the likes of TallkTalk/Sky/Vodafone et al are only a few quid cheaper. I believe TT continue to offer a voice only service (ie without broadband) though you have to call them up to get this as their website only lists broadband + line rental packages.

https://www.bt.com/landline/

Edited by deleted (Sat 27-Jul-19 16:43:06)

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

In reply to a post by Blmcg:

Openreach have (now publicly) announced a stop sell on FVA from March 2020, so don't expect it to be around in a couple of years.

Thanks, that probably explains why the voice port no longer exists on the latest ONT (1+0).

Is that very new? The last install I saw a couple of months ago was the combined enclosure with a BBU and HG8110 ONT with sockets for one ethernet and one POTS connection.

Ditching FVA in light of the withdrawal of copper and aspirations of full fibre seems backwards - for those people only requiring a phone service having a single box installed by Openreach to which you connect a phone would not be dissimilar to now:
POTS socket on an ONT is the equivalent to that on an NTE,
FVA is the equivalent of the voice copper circuit,
Voice LLU is equivalent to the telecoms provider running their own SIP server to terminate the FVA connection,
WLR3 is equivalent to the telecoms provider buying in SIP services - I seem to recall BT Wholesale did trial this, or certainly issued a consultation.

If you just want a "landline" phone then a 3G desk handset (~£30) and an unlimited calls SIM (~£10 pcm) is cheaper and a better option for most people. A lot of people already don't use their landline for calls another 5 years and it will be even fewer.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

If you just want a "landline" phone then a 3G desk handset (~£30) and an unlimited calls SIM (~£10 pcm) is cheaper and a better option for most people. A lot of people already don't use their landline for calls another 5 years and it will be even fewer.

I'm thinking more of older people who can find change difficult, and then there are those with wired emergency call alarms too. Over time this will change, but in the timescales mooted there will still be a sizeable number of users.

Mobile isn't necessarily the answer, I suspect the percentage of homes which have indoor 3G coverage is less than those which fail to meet the broadband USO criteria (I'm sure Mr S could rummage and find some figures).

In reply to a post by tdw42:

I'm thinking more of older people who can find change difficult

I agree change is difficult for some and its not necessary the elderly, remember back to when we switched from analogue to digital TV (I think it was 2012) there are always those that put it off until the last minute or are not sure exactly what to do but we did get through it and everyone now has digital TV.

Other than on the broadband websites I have not seen any mention of the switch off, it needs to start being discussed across the country via all media channels so people know what their choices are going forward. Maybe all customers affected by it should have information sent with every bill between now and 2025.

In reply to a post by burble:

Back when this site was ADSLguide and did modem reviews, off the back of one of those reviews I brought a Zoom modem with socket to plug phone in and make VOIP calls, at the time it was by far the cheapest way to phone family members around the world. Times have moved on and haven't used VOIP for years relying on emails, sms, and Skype calls for international and cheap packages for UK calls.

As I will be moving to FTTP, this thread atracted my interest, there are several suggestions for VOIP providers, so looked them up as I will be needing something to replace my TalkTalk anytime UK landline/mobile call package which costs £6.50 a month, I can't find anything even close. Maybe you could direct me towards a similar value package?

Using VoIP in a domestic (as opposed to business) environment I pay what I consider a very small amount per year for my VoIP calls, but I don't use any of the VoIP companies mentioned so far, at least not for outgoing calls.

Other people do the same as me, but before I go to the effort of explaining how it's done, would you mind giving us an indication of the quantity and type of calls you wish to make to see if the accounts/methods used would be suitable for your use?

IMO Skype is not cheap unless you're using it to make free calls to other Skype users, and that obviously excludes calling normal telephone numbers.

In reply to a post by tdw42:

Is that very new? The last install I saw a couple of months ago was the combined enclosure with a BBU and HG8110 ONT with sockets for one ethernet and one POTS connection.

Yep, the very latest ONT is 1+0 (1 RJ45 port + 0 FVA port), however I don't think (m)any are out in the wild just yet. Will be interesting to see if the external housing is ditched on this as theres no need for a BBU anymore d/t the absence of a voice port.

Unless as has been suggested VOIP is made available? The BBU would be needed to support that.

There are multiple current alarm systems, not just against burglary but also devices for old or disabled people to trigger if they fall etc.

In time if course those systems would be replaced by pure internet ones, but that loops us back to the need for the connection to stay up when mains power fails. Exactly the time when such people are likely to have an accident.

Hence the Salisbury trial which while not likely to make the national press unless it is a disaster will no doubt be covered locally a lot.

Moving towards the voice port being part of the Sky/BT/TalkTalk hardware rather than something in the Openreach hardware. Advantage is that for a retailer who uses multiple networks the voice part can be the same since its their own CPE controlling it.

Where a switch to voice over broadband is hardest is those who want nothing to do with broadband but simply just want an old fashioned phone. So like we had people paid to assist during TV digital switchover we will get something similar most likely with the voice switch.

Will be interesting to see if the external housing is ditched on this as theres no need for a BBU anymore d/t the absence of a voice port.

That�s the way I read it.

So all phone or internet-based alarm systems fail immediately on a power cut?

My family is in transition - we use mobiles but some like the convenience and functionality of DECT landline phones which are always in fixed positions in the flat and are programmed with family and friends. We really ought to get used to mobile only, but I plan to indulge them by using an ATA on VOIP and porting in the landline number.

The landline is used for incoming calls from family, and a few hours a month outgoing anytime to UK landlines and mobiles. I'd love to have your ideas about possible providers.

Incidentally we are about to have FTTP installed by G.network in central London. The first mention on this forum? Their tariffs are here https://www.g.network/residential/

Not if you supply your own UPS.

I used to swear by APC. Maybe I'll buy some shares in them �.

We clock up around 30 hours of landline and 20 hours of mobile calls per month. Majority of the landline calls are evening and weekend, Majority of mobile calls are daytime.
Looking to see what TalkTalk and Sky will be offering when they come into the market for OR FTTP, I note that TalkTalk have an offer of free calls on their own FTTH product, but doubt that will be on general offer across the board, also my contract runs out in couple of months and there is no indication as to when TalkTalk will be using OR FTTP.

TalkTalk, unlike Sky, are planning to roll out their own FTTP network nationwide so they may never sell full fibre on the Openreach platform. Sky will be offering Openreach based FTTP & gfast by the end of 2019, offering speeds of up to 1 Gig.

Edited by deleted (Mon 29-Jul-19 15:05:17)

Where has TalkTalk said a nationwide FTTP network of their own build? The FibreNation vehicle is of limited coverage, Ripon, Harrogate and York (part built already) and is still sat seeking an investor.

If TalkTalk never sell FTTP on the Openreach platform they are going to have zero customers in Salisbury in a couple of years.

As Andrew says, TalkTalk have their own 'small' set up, but their spring statement to shareholders stated they would be going with OR FTTP in other areas. I imagine they are working on getting best terms.

Smarty do Unlimited calls for £5 per month with no contract. One option would be to get a cheap mobile phone with Bluetooth and use for all calls. If you prefer an actual handset rather than mobile you can now get cordless phones that can connect to a mobile phone and use it's connection such as the BT premium cordless.

Are you saying their (initial?) plan to cover 3 million premises is just for York, Harrogate & Ripon? Pretty sure those areas have a combined total of far less than 3 million premises. And whilst 3 million is only ~10% of uk premises, i imagine they will eventually move onto other areas nationwide hence the title Fibre Nation. Anyway talk is cheap, they need to find an investor first!

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/8245-talktalk-cr...

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

TalkTalk, unlike Sky, are planning to roll out their own FTTP network nationwide so they may never sell full fibre on the Openreach platform. Sky will be offering Openreach based FTTP & gfast by the end of 2019, offering speeds of up to 1 Gig.

I'll eat Paddy's hat if Talktalk aren't selling OpenReach FTTP in the next 12 months.

An FTTP network in York isn't nationwide.

Nope - initial aim is 100,000 premises. The 3 million is an eventual aim and very dependant on a long term investor

Probably already selling in a very quiet way

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

I'll eat Paddy's hat if Talktalk aren't selling OpenReach FTTP in the next 12 months.

An FTTP network in York isn't nationwide.

Well you may have to eat that hat because they would have jumped on the Openreach FTTP bandwagon a long time ago if they had no plans for their own FTTP network. They were one of the first to sell Openreach G.Fast and most CPs who sell g.fast also sell FTTP. Of course if their own plans for FTTP fall through then they might not have any choice but to start selling Openreach based FTTP.

As for their FTTP build in York, that was their pilot/trial FTTP project with CityFibre. Their Fibre Nation project is planned to cover 3 million premises (eventually) which is the equivalent of 15 towns/cities the size of York. However as I said earlier all of this means diddly squat if they can't find an investor.

Edited by deleted (Mon 29-Jul-19 17:33:40)

G.Fast was initially predicted to cover millions of homes in a very short time period.
Talktalk decided this was worth making order systems and training staff for.

Until very recently there has been so little OpenReach FTTP it wasn't worthwhile for Talktalk/Sky to sell it.

Sky have decided to sell OpenReach FTTP now that OR are planning to cover millions of homes.

By your logic Talktalk will roll out their own FTTP network and sell that to end users.
They will sell OpenReach G.Fast to customers, but not FTTP.
That's some bizarre business strategy.

If they were holding back from selling OpenReach Ultrafast because of their Fibre Nation plans then they wouldn't have sold G.Fast at all.

They choose to sell G.Fast as it's quick access to a faster product to millions of customers.
They will do the same when OpenReach FTTP has a big enough footprint.

The Talktalk Fibre Nation plan is simply an ambition to build an FTTP network with someone else's money. The main investor they had planned has already walked away after failing to agree terms with them.

You're very welcome to come back in 12 months time and say I told you so, and I'll gladly eat that hat.
I'd be extremely surprised if they don't start selling it within 12 months though.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

TalkTalk, unlike Sky, are planning to roll out their own FTTP network nationwide so they may never sell full fibre on the Openreach platform. Sky will be offering Openreach based FTTP & gfast by the end of 2019, offering speeds of up to 1 Gig.

I'll eat Paddy's hat if Talktalk aren't selling OpenReach FTTP in the next 12 months.

An FTTP network in York isn't nationwide.

TTB use OR for their FTTP business lines

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

By your logic Talktalk will roll out their own FTTP network and sell that to end users.
They will sell OpenReach G.Fast to customers, but not FTTP.
That's some bizarre business strategy.

Why is that bizarre? Why would TT sell Openreach based 1 Gig for £100s per month (with an upload of only 220 Mbps) when they can & are selling their own symmetrical 1 Gig FTTP for around £30/m, as is the case in York? TT are a bargain basement ISP, no way on earth are they going to start selling 2 tiers of FTTP - a considerably pricier & technically inferior (wrt upload speeds) FTTP based Openreach service versus their own symmetric FTTP service costing a small fraction. When TT decided to sell g.fast a few years ago, their Fibre Nation plan was not announced, ie they had no idea if they were to going to build on the York FTTP pilot.

Btw TT do not actively promote/advertise g.fast services on their website, you have to Google 'TalkTalk g.fast' in order to get the URL to order such a service - its not cheap (by TT standards) either, around £50/m for the 300 Mbps tier.

Likewise, Vodafone have decided not to sell Openreach based FTTP (despite continuing to sell other Openreach based products such as FTTC lines) and instead sell CityFibre FTTP services at a fraction of what Openreach charge.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

The Talktalk Fibre Nation plan is simply an ambition to build an FTTP network with someone else's money.

No way will any company build a FTTP for free and not expect anything in return. If - and its the mother of all "if's" - TT do find an investor for their plans then it will be a similar arrangement like the CityFibre/Vodafone FTTP partnership. CityFibre are laying 100% of the fibre - from the PoPs to user premises - but Vodafone will have paid them a substantial amount for this and in return get exclusive access to sell residential/consumer FTTP services for a limited time. Vodafone also have to ensure they have the necessary backhaul links in place to carry the high speeds, which can cost quite a lot depending on the traffic they're seeing.

In reply to a post by Alucidnation:

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

TalkTalk, unlike Sky, are planning to roll out their own FTTP network nationwide so they may never sell full fibre on the Openreach platform. Sky will be offering Openreach based FTTP & gfast by the end of 2019, offering speeds of up to 1 Gig.

I'll eat Paddy's hat if Talktalk aren't selling OpenReach FTTP in the next 12 months.

An FTTP network in York isn't nationwide.

TTB use OR for their FTTP business lines

TalkTalk/TalkTalk Business do not sell Openreach based FTTP services at present. I supect you might be referring to business leased lines which Openreach do sell to TTB. However leased lines are a different kettle of fish. From my own experience, TTB sales staff will sometimes refer to ''leased lines' as 'FTTP lines'.

Edited by deleted (Mon 29-Jul-19 20:24:05)

Your whole reasoning there is bizarre.

They won't sell OpenReach FTTP because it's more expensive and slower than their own tiny York FTTP network.

Yet they are absolutely fine selling OpenReach G.Fast which is more expensive and slower than their own FTTP.

Where's the logic?

You seem fixated on higher OpenReach FTTP tiers that aren't widely available and the relevant residential offerings cost a fortune.

The customer tends not to be aware of the underlying technology, be it FTTC, G.Fast or FTTP.
It's simply advertised as fibre, or SuperFast Fibre, or Ultrafast fibre, or similar generic terms.

Why would Talktalk not sell the same 2 OpenReach FTTP speed tiers that are available on G.Fast at a similar price?
They could be advertised the same to customers, yet 1 would be considerable more reliable and customers would get the full rate regardless of cabinet distance.

They could choose to keep 1Gb offerings for their own network.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Your whole reasoning there is bizarre.

They won't sell OpenReach FTTP because it's more expensive and slower than their own tiny York FTTP network.

Yet they are absolutely fine selling OpenReach G.Fast which is more expensive and slower than their own FTTP.

Where's the logic?

Then perhaps you'd like to explain why Vodafone have shunned Openreach FTTP services in favour of Cityfibre based FTTP? There's nothing stopping Vodafone from selling both Openreach and Cityfibre based FTTP services. After all, Openreach's FTTP footprint is far greater than Cityfibre's at present. So why can't TalkTalk operate in the same way, assuming their Fibre Nation plan comes to fruition? As for g.fast on TalkTalk, based on the very little sales exposure it gets on their website, it may be that they plan on retiring this sometime in the future. Otherwise i don't see the point of selling g.fast but making it almost impossible to find on their website.

Having said all this, if TalkTalk were to start selling Openreach based FTTP in the next year or two then I will happily eat humble pie. I may even join them if they were to sell half a gig or 1 Gig FTTP services at a reasonable price

Edited by deleted (Mon 29-Jul-19 22:31:03)

Perhaps same reason most big ISP's have chosen not to sell it?

OpenReach FTTP has always had a very small footprint.
It needs to be worth it to train staff, create the ordering system, have new CPE made.

What's the difference between OpenReach FTTP 80/20 and OpenReach FTTC 80/20 that means ISP's with their own FTTP network will sell 1 and not the other?

It's not price, they cost the same.
It's not reliability, FTTP is better.
It's not speed, everyone gets the full rate.

I would suggest it's because FTTC reaches over 24 million homes, and FTTP only reaches about 1.5 million homes.
It was under 500,000 homes last year.

I don't believe for a second that the big players aren't selling OpenReach FTTP for some vanity reason because they have their own FTTP network, which is what you seem to be implying.
It's more likely because it has never been worth selling with such a limited footprint.

Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 29-Jul-19 23:31:23)

In reply to a post by burble:

My point was that Vonage and such like are charging considerably more to add a comprehensive phone package to FTTP than TalkTalk charge to add a similar package to FTTC or ADSL. There was once a time when VOIP was the cheap option, at least when phoning overseas, not sure this is still the case.

I would say that Vonage are more in the hand holding market for which they then charge more that the likes of Sipgate (retail) which are more DIY. Vonage have a marketing agreement with Gigaclear.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

I don't believe for a second that the big players aren't selling OpenReach FTTP for some vanity reason because they have their own FTTP network, which is what you seem to be implying.
It's more likely because it has never been worth selling with such a limited footprint.

So I'll ask again, why have Vodafone chosen to use Cityfibre's FTTP network rather than Openreach for their FTTP services? Unless you're suggesting Cityfibre now have a bigger FTTP footprint than Openreach? As I said earlier, there's nothing stopping Vodafone offering both Openreach and Cityfibre FTTP based services - yet they've chosen to go with an operator with a smaller FTTP footprint of the two.

Edited by deleted (Tue 30-Jul-19 10:25:42)

Vodafone - smaller fixed line presence currently....so equations very different to TalkTalk.

CityFibre - cheaper to buy and first mover in terms of Gigabit marketing in various areas. Exclusivity deal for a number of years. Sales people being able to say nothing to do with BT might be a sales pitch too. Also there may be deals for dark fibre for Vodafone 4G/5G backhaul involved.

CityFibre is winning lots of anchor tenant contracts, taking them away from traditional BT and also looks to be favoured choice for possible further public investment too, i.e. more money for anchor tenant with fingers crossed subsequent FTTP roll-out.

Also TalkTalk have stated they intend to provide FTTP with others companies as well as OR, I take this to mean whoever they can get the best deal from.

e.g. OFNL

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

CityFibre - cheaper to buy

Bingo! This is what I've been saying all along, ie non-Openreach FTTP services often cost less at the wholesale level which in turn means cheaper prices for the end user.

However.....I will have to eat humble pie....

"Partnership from Openreach"
FTTP Future
� Committed to ensuringmaximum number of customers have access to full Fibre
� Investing in scale full Fibre network. TalkTalk as anchor tenant
� Will wholesale from Openreach � and potentially others � in remainder of country

This is from page 15 here, from the TalkTalk presentation in March 2019:

https://www.talktalkgroup.com/dam/jcr:bed20b23-7f54-...

So i guess the question is "when" not "if" wrt TalkTalk selling Openreach FTTP. Will be interesting to see how their FTTP pricing compares versus BT Retail.

As this thread is now well off the original topic of fixed phone lines, I have signed up to sipgate basic and have a account ready for when i move now set up, did not think it was this easy, Hope this helps other users who are moving home and finding they cant get a landline

I have FTTP and a landline over legacy copper (wasn't offered FVA). I'd love to move to a VoIP solution, but I don't know how to migrate my existing number without ceasing the FTTP service, or if it's even possible at this time.

In reply to a post by bedrock:

I have FTTP and a landline over legacy copper (wasn't offered FVA). I'd love to move to a VoIP solution, but I don't know how to migrate my existing number without ceasing the FTTP service, or if it's even possible at this time.

Give BT a call but my gut feeling is you can't cancel your voice service (copper or FVA) without putting a cease on your FTTP broadband. I say this because when doing a check on BT's website for my FTTP line, BT don't show any FTTP services without voice line rental. Some CPs such as Zen do offer FTTP without the need for a voice service.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

TalkTalk, unlike Sky, are planning to roll out their own FTTP network nationwide so they may never sell full fibre on the Openreach platform. Sky will be offering Openreach based FTTP & gfast by the end of 2019, offering speeds of up to 1 Gig.

I'll eat Paddy's hat if Talktalk aren't selling OpenReach FTTP in the next 12 months.

An FTTP network in York isn't nationwide.

This is apparently what Trista said on 17th July.
"...from this autumn we're going to be ready to start selling Openreach's Fibre To The Premise products..."
Looks like the hat is safe. Might have to warm up the oven to cook the humble pie for someone though.
If only we had some sort of website that reported news such as this

In reply to a post by Thinker27:

The landline is used for incoming calls from family, and a few hours a month outgoing anytime to UK landlines and mobiles. I'd love to have your ideas about possible providers.

I'd suggest sipgate basic, which has zero monthly charge and free calls to other sipgate numbers. Calls to UK landlines are 1.18p per minute, and mobiles 9.90p per minute. If the proportion of mobile calls is small, you may only pay a couple of quid per month.

There is a 1000 minute landline pack for £5.90/month, or unlimited landlines and mobiles for £9.95 per month. But at that point, I'd be inclined to use my mobile phone for outbound calls instead.

I'll second that.

There's also the added benefit if you travel outside the EU a lot, you can stick the Sipdroid app on your phone and make calls at the same rates as long a you can connect to a free wifi hotspot. Saved me a fortune on call charges when I used to go the States a lot.

And go for someone like Port5060 and pay 0.5p for the UK and 1.2p for mobiles with per second billing and a 1p setup charge.

I've just logged in to Thinkbroadband to ask this very question.

I have a friend who has just moved into a newbuild and only FTTP is laid on for communications/Internet.

He hasn't got a "Landline" yet but will need to as his mobile signal is so bad. I assumed that the Fibre modem which I believe is in a larger case inside the premises would have a BT Phone socket for VOIP, but I'm Clearly unsure about this.
I see an acronym in this thread "FVA" but not sure what it stands for or what it is?

My questions are:-

Does the system use Voice over IP when only Fibre is laid on. If so does it cost more as the normal copper phone features in comparison?
Should there be the standard BT Phone socket on the equipment "box" or would say something like an NTE5 be positoned along side it, if phone connectivity is requested?

Finally, if the Fibre system does use VOIP, are there any Wifi type phones that can connect to the Fibre Modem/Router, so that a wired phone is not required?

Thanks.

Edited by Vorlon (Thu 08-Aug-19 20:41:22)

Question to double check this is Openreach FTTP to the property?

Reason being others do fibre only builds too.

I think you�ll find Openreach FTTP ONT�s will not be coming with a built in PSTN jack any more ....

... if the mobile signal is poor, can they not use �wifi calling� on their mobile ?

I think so Andrew, as I believe he said he was billed by BT. I can double check this.

I wasn't aware of such a feature Zarjaz. Is this by using an APP on your mobile phone which is essentially VOIP. If so, how does it work in the sense of carriers and cost etc

Edit: I've see that companies like Skype and the other big companies do VOIP. But are there any apps that work just like using a basic telephone, where the recipient doesnt need to use an app and can simply carry on using their traditional copper wire/local exchange "powered" telephone?

Edited by Vorlon (Thu 08-Aug-19 22:13:05)

If you have an Internet connection FTTP, VDSL and ADSL) then you can use VOIP. The VOIP equipment you use and what ever VOIP service you choose to use are independent of the broadband supplier. The subject is discussed in the recent threads in the VOIP section of this website.

It is sometimes possible to make mobile phone calls via wifi, but the availability does depend on the network operator and the particular phone being used. Vodafone supply Sure Signal boxes that connect to wired broadband and provide a signal that you can connect (quite possibly) any mobile phone using a Vodafone Sim to.

Wi-Fi calling lets your mobile make and receive calls over the wi-fi signal rather than the mobile signal

If using traditional voip (say traditional as has been around for many years) then you connect a VoIP ATA to the router and then you can plug in a standard telephone e.g. https://www.vonage.co.uk/home/friends-and-family/ and their Vonage box.

In another post you say they are paying BT, are they paying BT for a FTTP plus voice service or JUST a FTTP data. If paying for voice then the people to ask would be BT as to how they connect their phone.

The BT Smart Hub supports DECT so likely has its own built in VoIP for use as phone service in FTTP only locations. This makes sense with the shift from the phone socket on the Openreach kit to being on the retailers kit. Looking at pictures of the ports on the Smart Hub there is also a standard phone socket.

Thanks for all your replies.

As far as Im aware he is paying just for a BT FTTP product without a phone package. I believe he is paying £29.95 per month, but I have no idea as to what sort of speeds that buys. I'm guess being Fibre there's the scope for some super fast speeds available if you wish to pay more, but I think he's unlikely to do that.

I'll look into what VOIP services are available via an App for mobile phone use, but knowing him, he'll not want Skype or any of the other well known communication products.
I think he'd just want to be able to use his phone on Wifi in more or less the way it works with normal cell use and contacting people.
So ideally an App that you open and can simply dial a number without the need for video support or lots of features - so basically the same as dialling on your landline or mobile phone (cell connection).

Edit: Thanks for the Vonage link, that looks like the sort of think that would suit him, although I wonder if BT would be cheaper to supply a voice package , even if it was say just free calls in the evenings only, rather than anytime.

Edit:2:- Are there any Pictures of the BT FTTP home installations, as I believe he said that there was a device like a modem inside a larger enclosure. I wondered if this was described to me accurately (or if I got it right!) that there is room in the enclosure for other kit?

Your friend will be paying line rental to BT as they don�t offer FTTP without line rental unlike other providers such as Zen. Cheapest/easiest option will be to ask BT to add on a suitable calling package and plug in a phone into the FVA socket.

For Wi-Fi calling he would require a suitable handset (eg iPhone 6 or above) and a compatible network. Not all phones & networks (especially MVNOs) support WC.

There�s no room in the �enclosure� for anything else.

The FVA set up would supply a fly lead (PSTN jacks either end) and you�d �patch� the voice service to the properties internal wiring.

�����������

I find wifi calling an excellent feature. A property I moved to had dreadful mobile reception ... I was at that point with Vodaphone ... they wanted a small sum to provide a Sure Signal (which seemed harsh as I had been their customer for many years) So I moved to EE , enabled the feature on my iPhone, sorted. It works really well.
BT mobile have now added it to their mobile service too, rather than the clunky app that did the same function previously.
I�m certain other providers offer the function, but these are the only two I have experience of.
So as soon as my mobile picks up a wifi connection it �knows� it will dial and send texts via that .... call charges are the same.

Probably paying line rental - the fibre only deals are not mainstream so would not rule out 100% their being a data only package.

At install time if the order was a broadband and phone package, then either fibre voice access available or the Smart Hub with phone socket supplied.

Doing a random check at IV2 6ED (Openreach FTTP only area) on BT's website brings up the same deal @ £29.99 /m incl line rental for the 40/10 FTTP service. I can't see any options for a data only service which would be slightly cheaper.

Vorlon needs to ask his friend if he has been assigned a new BT number at the new build. If he has, it might be a case of just phoning BT and adding the evenings+weekend calls package for £4.50 /m or £9.99 /m for anytime calls. If the developer has already hard wired the FVA port to the tel sockets in the house then I don't see why an Engineer visit would be required.

Edited by deleted (Fri 09-Aug-19 12:33:05)

The last I checked BT do not sell FTTP without a voice service.

Either a copper line is used for voice or FVA is used for FTTP only areas.

The only exclusion to this was ECI only exchange areas. This should only affect a small amount of FTTP lines over the country.

You can check the back of the OpenReach fibreONT to see if it's manufactured by ECI.

Thanks for the feedback Guys. I can update him with the options you've explained and I think he'll speak to BT as his mobile signal is very poor (new forest area).