HELP! Orange Home Broadband > One for the Experts :) Part 4

Hi all

Hoping that we can, along with your help, find out what the hell is wrong with orange home broadbad (again!)

Kit & Info:

Original V1 Livebox
Homemax 8mb
2nd Line
1.5km from exchange
normal download 3-4.2mb
BB connected direct to master socket, no other extensions or BT lines

Stats:


ADSL firmware version : A2pBT009c1.d17d
Connection mode : G.DMT
Type : Interleave
Noise margin (dB) : 6.3
Attenuation (dB) : 45.0
Attainable download rate (kbps) : 7904
ADSL status : Connected [0]

Downstream Upstream
Rate (kbps) 7488 448

Issue:

For the last 10-14 days, the line sync speed has been around 5-6mb, it for the last 7days has show as above stats, around the 7mb mark, sometimes 7.5mb-8mb!

BUT, the actual download is ranging from 0.5-0.9mb, upload is standard slow "upto" 448 range.

Have tried 2 new Liveboxes (1 refurb & 1 new) 1 new Netgear 1000sp, removing everything (including a corded phone) from the BT socket, leaving the box after ORANGE L1 TS reset the profile, contacted Orange PSTN dept who have run a "line test" for noise, speed, yadayada! (with no issues found) yet the DL is STILL less than 0.5mb...

Can someone, please, please explain how the hell this can happen? We have been having issues with Orange since day dot, but due to the massive amount of use on the 2nd line to free mobiles & international calls, have stuck with them, even after 3 years of "oh its your router" or "oh its a leaf on the phone line" and every other scripted answer you can expect!

Have spent hours and hours on the phone, trying to get something done as far as BT line check (only thing I can think of!) to see if even though Orange say there is not an issue, there is!

ANY ideas, anyone (including the forums new Orange CS poster!) what it can be... seriously either need to solve it, or find out if it is Orange playing "DIRTY" to get all the 2nd line owners pi55ed off enough to move onto the NEW type of inclusive call package, before they cut the service off soon anyway!

Cheers all

Paste the full results of this test.

Sorry, seems like there are a number of issues around at the mo!

Speedtester java call errors! (tested on 4 dif browsers, lots!)

type Exception report

message

description The server encountered an internal error () that prevented it from fulfilling this request.

exception

java.lang.IllegalStateException: Cannot forward after response has been committed
org.apache.struts.action.RequestProcessor.doForward(RequestProcessor.java:1078)
org.apache.struts.action.RequestProcessor.processForwardConfig(RequestProcessor.java:396)
org.apache.struts.action.RequestProcessor.process(RequestProcessor.java:232)
org.apache.struts.action.ActionServlet.process(ActionServlet.java:1913)
org.apache.struts.action.ActionServlet.doPost(ActionServlet.java:462)
javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:710)
javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:803)
note The full stack trace of the root cause is available in the Apache Tomcat/6.0.16 logs.

Anyway, after waiting to get back online at the premises, here are the last stats guys!

*********

Download speedachieved during the test was - 0.73 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 0.6 Mbps-7.15 Mbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :7.49 Mbps(DOWN-STREAM), 0.45 Mbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 6 Mbps

*********

As can be seen by the madness above, this is crazy!

Orange L1/L2 BB have both blamed Orange PSTN dept and obviously Orange PSTN dept have blamed Orange L1/L2 BB dept...

PSTN line test has been run again, no faults (according to Orange!)
BB line tests have been run again, no faults (according to Orange!)

Time on phone to Orange, has now exceeded 22 hours... and counting!

The profile has gone up from around 4.5 to 6mb in the last, roughly, 2 months, not sure when as the routers have been off/changed so many times, lost count!

So any ideas??? PLEASE stop me thinking I am STUPID

Your IP Profile of 6M puts the blame firmly at Orange's door. Time to move on if they can't find a solution.

Thanks DB, however, this is now more principle than just that

The technical bit I do not get is how is the Throughput from the actual physical connection (cat6 hi def) router wire, is loosing 5.5-6mb? from router to pc's?

It is synched at 7mb right now, on a 6mb profile (not stuck) but still only showing 0.75mb max physical download (tested with files size V time as well) speed???

Yes can move on, but where the connections are, there is only BT ipstream at the exchange, thus everyone (including Orange) is using the same dSlam and out ports, to make it worse, have contacted a number of other orange users on same exchange V a number of AOL/BT same adsl max users, none have the issue???

So, anymore tech ideas as to what may be causing this issue, or is everyone still lying in bed, drunk from the 2 BIG footie matches in the UK yesterday!

120 views, no one got any ideas???

Amazingly the grass has been cut in the last 2 hours, the speed has now gone up to...

0.86mb!!! almost enough to go on google )

Starting to wonder if there is more to this, like rain / condensation in BT box or DP (just outside house, not a Cabinet) in road, 25ft away from master socket!

HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!

Ok, this is like playing hide and seek!

Just got off the phone to orange L2 (not sure if there really is any difference other than the scripts they use!) and ran ANOTHER bt line test...

http://s13.postimage.org/5iv584h6v/20_05_2012_17_44_...

Now this really is back to 9600 dialup days!

There you go MR ORANGE, even more proof you are talking a load of bull, I know you have been to this thread and also looked at my post, as I encoded the email links to your 5 support team members!

So I WILL continue to post all over the web, especially where it counts!

If it was not for adslguide and peeps like me in the early days, you would not even have have 706k customers!

You are welcome to post HERE in the public, instead of leaving me [censored] VM messages all over the place...

Exchange congestion is unlikely if throughput doesn't improve at any time.
As long as your system is malware free, no-one else is continually using your connection and your router, NIC and ethernet cable are all good, your problem is with Orange, not BT or anyone else.
Your IP profile proves that.

Cheers again DB!

Glad someone is interested, you can be on my Crystal Maze team if you like!!! I am SO going to solve this one!

Ok, throughput, I was referring to loss, from either the router in the property to the PC or the reverse, after speaking with O and BT users on the exchange, it must be from the outside DP in the path to the prop (I think!)

Technically, I just cannot see what is wrong, have even reverted to Win 3.1 on an old PC, with nothing on it, to see if it was a windows issue.. no quicker!

Also, for anyone else who might help, have SSH'd into a few of my servers and actually monitored the ip load on a file2file transfer, the ftp is even slower!

So, not the PC's, not the OS, but what is it?

Thinking about getting Orange to get Open reach out again to dig it up and lay a fresh run of cable maybe?

Mobile BB is quicker at the mo, running at 856k !!

Hey Mr ORANGE, glad you have me as a customer... NOT!

Ok, here is another update for all the techies / adslguide helpers



As you can see, another reset, another 2 hours on the phone and it is now a super fast SDSL line, same speed up as down LOL!

Please feel free to help me anyone!

In reply to a post by zippothegreat:

..... Technically, I just cannot see what is wrong.....

Knowingly or otherwise, Orange is "capping" you for whatever reason. It's time to move on.

While you may feel there is little point in changing providers, even when they all use BT Wholesale services, the capacity each provider buys can have a major impact on the quality of service you receive.

AOL is hardly renowned for being the best either, i.e. similar performance levels to Orange. BT Total is normally OK, as are probably many of the less well known names. Only thing is that they may charge a little more for the service

Hey Andy, thanks for the input mate!

Guess you have guessed we are not going to let this tail off, now Mr Orange is watching

Ok, for this line, there is not an issue with changing ISP, obviously, this would be down to how things go over the next 5 working days with Mr Orange, as luck would have it, the ipstream service that is the only choice on the exchange in question has all the old & new school players on board at source, so the "upto 8mb" provider can be anyone, really do not care

Mr Orange, as can be seen from a few other threads, seems to be either "throttling" or "capping" at certain times (mainly weekends) for some old (freeserve inc) users and also maybe, making sure that if you do have a "2nd line" or "any form of free mobile/international/anytime" inclusive plan or deal from way back, that you get pi**ed enough about the service and voip quality being [censored] or dropping out or just never connecting to a call (especially at all peak times!) that you as a customer, either say sod this "Can you change my plan to the new voice inc package" or "Sorry this is poxy, we are leaving!" and going to a new ISP.

What is obvious from this speed / rain in the line / capping / yadayada, issue is they still, after 22 years do not give a cr*p-o-la about "core" paying clients...

So, even though it might be a waste of time to most, this will be solved and it will be solved in the open, public, unrestricted forums of ADSLguide (sorry I still love the old name!) which is NOT what their Exec ADR, ISPA team and Head office pencil pushers want, BUT they have had 3 years to solve this particular issue and have not bothered! Which is why this thread is part 4!

The next steps I suggest Mr Orange follows at the property are:

1) Get BT to Rip all the internal cabling out, replace with new (again)
2) Get BT open reach back to "survey/change/review" the DP cable/Outside boxes (again)
3) Replace the "new" NT5Ea with another "new" NT5Ea (again)
4) Fit another "taylor" BT pstn / adsl splitter (why didn't you do this last time?)
5) Answer my calls to the UK MD office, before I call him at home again (yes he was pi**ed when I did it last time!)
6) Pay compensation (not really that important, as this is not about money any more!)

This is what I would do, if I still was in the telecom's industry

For the 200+ views of the thread, if you are anonymous, please feel free to join up to Thinkbroadband, it is really one of the best places to get ANY ADSL/Broadband issues & help, online! (if you can of course, with Mr Orange, get on line!)

Any more, for any more

The original title of the thread was obviously a bit long, so I have edited it so it will not annoy you all when viewing

For anyone interested & Mr Orange.. Oh and one of the Orange CEO's PA's I just spoke with (lovely lady!) at HO Some more info on the "fixed" problem!

As I cannot post the graphical or chart monitoring data as images...

"Dear Sir, we are pleased to inform you that you slow broadband speed issue has been resolved in full" >>>> Mmmm maybe not hey Mr Orange!







Check the times Mr Orange Technical Support L3... getting slower!

>>>>

Last BT test was so slow, it gave the option of a TAP3 test! Have not seen one of those since 2003!

http://s13.postimage.org/ssgs2wy2f/orangebb_btspeed_...

>>>>

New router data... how are we able to run speedtests at the same time as this is happening!!!

http://s16.postimage.org/koemy8q7p/orangebb_newroute...

>>>>

Just waiting on the pre 10am delivery of another "new" bright box, 2 yr old tech already... Oh it has not arrived... again!

Just waiting for an extremely, knowledgeable and Ex- top brass BT techo to pop in for a "look see" and a cuppa, seems he knows a few things about BT & Orange, that might need sharing here

More updates soon...

None of 1-4 apply because your line is syncing at near full speed all the way to the exchange. There (appears to be) nothing wrong with your line, faceplate or other equipment. I believe you've been told this already.

Do some traceroutes or post a ping monitor to confirm the above.

Cheers Q, have got that in hand, a stack is running remote, to the ip, back to the exchange and back to orange (which weirdly is 14 hops away!) distro server.

Have supplied some further data (as supplied a week ago today already!) to those in the know.

1-4 will still apply (in part) if there is digress damage, gammy connectors etc etc, I hope this is not the case as they were already done and signed off by OR & Mr Orange.

Also had a look see (with the help of Mr Ex-BT techno madman) over a cuppa at some interesting info, seems that maybe the "2nd line" issue is more of a problem with Mr Orange, than they are leading everyone to think, yes the service is "being withdrawn" but it is part of a contract, not a price deal, so thus, may have to be replaced with a "like for like" service.

Asked to run a further "browser" test as it is now being classed as a "firewall" issue (huh!) so this is on an XP laptop, with NO protection, all orange ports open (both ways) and plugged into the socket with no wifi and no other anything connected.

http://s10.postimage.org/lkf0y84x5/orangebb_uswitch_...

Also we "popped" down the local exchange for a quick look see/hows your father to see if there is any "action" going on... because according to Mr Orange L3 they and other BB users on all ISP are having issues because of the exchange... Mmmm funny that no-one has been in since last Thursday am!

This is better than working for a living

Have you tried another PC with an Ethernet connection to the router? i.e. rule out that issue isn't on local LAN-side. Guessing you have...

The interweb has nice hardware that means those that run it can do it remotely, each local telephone exchange does not have its own internet geek.

Only time an exchange need be accessed is for something physical to be changed, and as pointed out, the line appears to be connecting fine, i.e. unlikely to be something in the exchange.

In reply to a post by zippothegreat:

I know you have been to this thread and also looked at my post, as I encoded the email links to your 5 support team members!

How do you know? Only this site would know, if at all, who reads posts. Or do you mean they have been sending you PMs on this site?

In reply to a post by zippothegreat:

I was referring to loss, from either the router in the property to the PC or the reverse, after speaking with O and BT users on the exchange, it must be from the outside DP in the path to the prop (I think!)

As you are getting good sync speeds and IP Profile , it has nowt to do with your wiring or your connection to exchange.

The loss, as you put it, is within the exchange and is down to Orange/BT, as you have been told.

In reply to a post by zippothegreat:

as can be seen from a few other threads, seems to be either "throttling" or "capping" at certain times (mainly weekends) for some old (freeserve inc) users

Evidence?

From an unthrottled old (freeserve inc) user!

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The interweb has nice hardware that means those that run it can do it remotely, each local telephone exchange does not have its own internet geek.

Only time an exchange need be accessed is for something physical to be changed, and as pointed out, the line appears to be connecting fine, i.e. unlikely to be something in the exchange.

Cheers Andy, sorry for delay, but things got a little bit top heavy on the "Principal" of this report to Mr Orange

You will be glad to know that there *was* a number of items at the exchange that needed updating/changing...

Along with the hardware, they have also (as we informed them in Nov to do) rerouted the VP from an old BT midband route that took the connection 345miles away from the EX and then back again, so around 15 hops, 5 of which were old & slow points on the VP...


So outcome and in answer to Xray ? as could not work out how to multiquote on the thread the emails were encoded to Mr Orange / L3 support, so that each link showed their EXACT landing point on the internet... so nothing to do with TBB or PM's they just did not bother to check the email links we sent them correctly, in fact they did not even bother to read 5 of them!

In answer to Xray, regarding the wiring, BTOR/Orange had no choice but to RIP all the wiring from the DP to the premise out, relay it and then do the same with the encoder, dslam and nat wiring in the exchange, as there WAS an issue with the 35 year old technology cabling in the EX! As to the "throttling" Mr Orange, was doing just that and is still doing it... why who knows, why who cares, but it MAY have something to with the fact that EE are moving away from fixed BB as a core income... so to Pee enough org FS/Wdoo/Early paying customers off, the lines get throttled... makes sense and there are plenty of paying core customers that have "speed" issues...

Anyway, as this is STILL going on with Mr Orange, some interesting data from the work to date on the issue...



Next step is to wait for the new training period to end and see what happens as the profile is still stuck at 6mb!

**********

Router: Livebox (8th one)
Line: Orange 8mb ADSL (ipstream)

Speedtester BT results (Mr Orange please NOTE the DSL connection rate!)

Download speedachieved during the test was - 5.62 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 0.6 Mbps-7.15 Mbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :7.23 Mbps(DOWN-STREAM), 0.45 Mbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 6 Mbps

*****

We will update the thread as the next 10 days in speed sync training MIGHT save Mr Orange a hefty £1000+ in refunds for the last 10 years... eat your heart out PPI claims, here come's something entirely different... as proven to your legal team

I have read this thread with interest. We are also a long-term, 'freeserve' aka Orange customer. Our internet speed was never more than 1mb/s due to the distance from the exchange, but about a year ago lines/exchange were imroved and possible speeds of 3-5mb/s were quoted, though our speed didn't change.

Recently however our speed appeared to be capped at 0.125mb/s - yes, 0.125! OP doesn't know how lucky they are! Orange told us this was due to our livebox being outdated - didn't understand that, we were paying for 'up to 5mb/s', (although we always knew we couldn't get more than 1mb/s due to the reasons above, that was just the lowest package then available). Also - if our livebox couldn't cope with over 1mb/s surely it was up to them to tell us, not us to guess?

We were not unhappy to have a new contract - our existing one was linked to a mobile phone which we wanted to cancel anyway, and very pleased when our nice new 'Brightbox' arrived. We plugged it in, and then got 0.03MB/s. No, that is NOT a typo! We couldn't even check emails, they timed out! Now, 2 days later, we are up to 0.9MB/s. So we will see if we get the promised 3mb/s or not - they've said wait 10 days, why I have no idea.

But if it is true that Orange are trying to drive customers away by capping speeds - can somebody explain why? It makes no sense to me, we were happy to leave but they went to great lengths to persuade us to stay! In fairnss, over the years we have had a good service, with very few outages until recently, while neighbours with other ISPs had far more problems...

Just mis informed support staff more likely

In terms of speed, your attenuation is best guide to what should be possible on your line

Post your router stats (under Advanced Set-Up).

Post your Bright Box router stats. Go advanced set-up > [accept] > system > adsl status, then copy and paste your router stats.

My Orange Bright Box router stats.
ADSL Status
This page shows information about your ADSL connection if applicable.
Status:
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information:
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1240 (Kbps.)
Downstream 9727 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication:
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 5.8 dB 10.8 dB
Line Attenuation 16.0 dB 29.5 dB

Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.6 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 16 0
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 0 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 98 0
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 15 0
Statistics:
Received Cells 118991
Transmitted Cells 18539

Edited by deleted (Mon 27-Aug-12 10:56:25)

OK - today we started with no internet at all..... phoned orange, who decided there was a line fault, and would ring us back. 5 minutes later - we have internet again. stats as follows:

ADSL Status
This page shows information about your ADSL connection if applicable.

Status:
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Interleaved Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.1(G.DMT)

Data Rate Information:
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 448 (Kbps.)
Downstream 2432 (Kbps.)

Defect/Failure Indication:
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 16.0 dB 7.1 dB
Line Attenuation 24.5 dB 49.5 dB

Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.4 dBm 18.9 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction NA NA
Interleaved Path FEC Correction 84718 131
Fast Path CRC Error NA NA
Interleaved Path CRC Error 11 214
Loss of Signal Defect 0 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR NA NA
Interleaved Path HEC Error 68 90
Error Seconds 4 0

Statistics:
Received Cells 159068
Transmitted Cells 25706

Curent speed seems to be capped at 0.938MB.s NB - I have no idea at all what any of this means, so if making suggestions please assume you're dealing with an imbecile!

As a novelty, for people who have never seen such poor speeds, our results:



No, we are not on a remote island, just 10 miles outside Leeds!

A bit more information. Ran a BT speedtest, which informed me that my DSL connection rate was 2.43 DS, 0.45 US. My line profile however is I MB/s. Thus the speed I guess. Does the 2.43 indicate what my line could get in theory?

Now, I'm hoping that, given the new Brightbox, that profile may increase over the next few days? If so, well that's fine, if not I'm guessing I have to go back to Orange and ask why...? Or have I got this all wrong.... It would be so nice if I knew what I was talking about, but I don't.....

In reply to a post by telnolies:

Does the 2.43 indicate what my line could get in theory?

Yes, at the moment, but the 1 Meg IP Profile is damping it down. We can but hope that the IP Profile recovers soon, as you say.

However your line should actually be capable of 5 Meg Sync Speed.

What exchange?

Don't worry, you are talking good sense

Well, last two days we had no internet at all! Rang orange, who said they would ring me back. They didn't. Rang again, ssaid they would ring me back.. you get the idea.

Eventually got to speak to somebody who told me I was having a 'regrid'. I'll spare you the next ten minutes of futile converstaion, but I eventually worked out that 'regrid' is Calcutta-English for 'regrade', ie the new box we have been sent. He then informed me basically tough, and we would have no internet for 10 days. I pointed out that this differed from what 5 of his colleagues had told me previously, but no joy. Today, 2 days later, we have internet again. Sort of:



Did a BT speedtest, which shows our profile is now as follows:
Download speedachieved during the test was - 0 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 0.05 Mbps-0.25 Mbps.
Your DSL Connection Rate :0.16 Mbps(DOWN-STREAM), 0.45 Mbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 0.14 Mbps

What is also odd is we can no longer log into our orange info (198.162.1.1 page) - the password isn't accepted. No idea why.

Browsing the net (very slowly) I get the idea my profile MIGHT gradually improve - but is there anything we need to do to make that happen?

Perhaps they have forced your router to reset. Have you tried the original password on the "credit card"?

Your Sync speed is far worse than before

Be careful that the "regrid" doesn't restart a new contract term.

Oddly - we can now access the Orange page...

Don't mind about the contract - we do indeed have a new contract because we had one with a phone on we didn't want anymore (yeah, I know.... but done now!). It's more about getting two people to tell me the same thing! We've so far been told:

1) When we get the ner router, plug it in at once and our broadband will be fine, 3MB minimum..
2) When we get the new router, plug it in at once but will take 10 days to get to full speed.
3) When we get the router, plug it in at once but we will get no broadband for the next 10 days.
4) When we get the new router, do not plug it in for 10 days.
5) It doesn't matter whether we plug it in or not, they wont talk to us about it for 10 says as they cant check it.

This includes one person who told us both (1) and (4), repeatedly, in the same phone call. This in insane. Apart from wasting my time, it's wasting their time - each call takes about 20 minutes, and at the end of it you realise the person you're talking to probably hasn't got a clue what they're talking about. Niether have I, but I haven't been trained by Orange.

Ah... but clearly they haven't either... ((

Just thought I'd post this to show Orange users that, no matter how bad a service Orange/BT can contrive to give you, they can still be relied on to make it worse!



Guess that's as bad as it gets..... I know there's no point in posting this, but hohum not much else i can use this xxxx PC for right now!

Oh - apologies to OP, didn't mean to hi-jack the thread, but you didn't come back and I seem unwittingly to have done so... if you come back I'll go away and post somewhere else, but seems I'm maybe doing no harm here now...

What are router stats now?

It'll be 1) or 2). 3) is nonsense and 4) is pointless, as you've got BB now. As for 5) that must be breech of contract

Here we go... latest router stats...

Status:
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Interleaved Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.1(G.DMT)

Data Rate Information:
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 448 (Kbps.)
Downstream 160 (Kbps.)

Defect/Failure Indication:
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 17.0 dB 34.1 dB
Line Attenuation 24.5 dB 49.5 dB

Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.5 dBm 13.1 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction NA NA
Interleaved Path FEC Correction 1132 25
Fast Path CRC Error NA NA
Interleaved Path CRC Error 16 2
Loss of Signal Defect 58 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR NA NA
Interleaved Path HEC Error 19 2
Error Seconds 123342 0

Statistics:
Received Cells 2279415
Transmitted Cells 410188

Re the stats above... like I said I don't undertsnad most of this, but can't help notice that 'error seconds' has gone from 15 last time to 123,000!

Now if as I think that's the number of seconds in which some sort of data error is taking place..I think something isn't right! But what the xxxx do I do about it...

In reply to a post by telnolies:

can't help notice that 'error seconds' has gone from 15 last time to 123,000!

Yes, that seems high, but it depends on how long you've been connected.

You need to look at it in conjunction with the Time Connected: on the 1st Status page. Do you have any idea what this was at the time of these stats?

Well, currently it's showing:

error seconds - 123342
time connected; 1 day 7h 36 m

Now, time connected is thus 113760 seconds, and error seconds are 123342 / 0 which by my reasoning seems a little odd, how can there be more seconds with an error occurring than time connected...but then like I say I don't really understand it. But - those are the figures, and as you can see above a few days ago the error seconds showing was 15.

And the speed (I use the word loosely) hasn't changed, still all of 0.1mb/s.

For completeness:

Broadband Type: ADSL
Broadband State: Connected
Internet State: Connected
Time Connected: 1 day 07:49:08
Downstream Rate: 160kbps
Upstream Rate: 448kbps

I also note the upstream rate is nearly 3 times the downstream rate, which also seems a little odd, or is that normal to you guys?

In reply to a post by telnolies:

how can there be more seconds with an error occurring than time connected?

This can get confused by the Time Connected being reset at the last re-sync but the ES are since the router last rebooted. Best to force a reboot before you try to analyse ES.

Interesting that ES haven't increased over the last 22 hours, which is unusual.

I get you. Well I know error seconds was 15 on Mon 27-Aug-12 10:21:10, as per my earlier post, so gone up to 123,000 odd since then but now seems to be static. That presumably represents the time I had no working connection - which the man in Calcutta said was just part of 'the 10 days I wouldn't have any internet/Orange couldn't and wouldn't do anything about it'. Yeah, OK.....

Question - does that imply that my outage was because of an error in the data stream, or had Orange/BT indeed 'switched my box off' or whatever this man meant so the otherwise valid data stream was recording as an error.....

What is concerning me is that browsing the internet many people seem to find that unl;ess you can understand, explain and verify the problem to Orange nothing happens, and if you're a computer numpty like me.. well frankly you don't stand much chance of doing that!

In reply to a post by telnolies:

That presumably represents the time I had no working connection

But you do have a connection for the last 1 day 07:49:08.

NM what Orange said; your router proves otherwise!

Yep. If you can call 0.1mb/s a 'connection' lol!

I seriously think we have a line problem, but am at a loss of what to show them to make them get BT to check it...

It's a connection, nonetheless, and not what Orange told you!

I can't remember, but have you tried the usual suspects, discon'ed ring wire, plugged into hidden test socket w/out any phones, BT Quiet Line Test (17070), ... ?


What's your current IP profile on BT Speedtester?

In a word - yes and no lol! As of a few days ago when I first posted, I wouldn't have had a clue what you were talking about! Having spent many happy hours googling such things (inbetween outages and waiting while any other member of the family did anything on their pc's..) I now at least know what you mean!

Current speedtest results are:
Download speedachieved during the test was - 0.09 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 0.05 Mbps-0.25 Mbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :0.16 Mbps(DOWN-STREAM), 0.45 Mbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 0.14 Mbps

I have done the line noise test - it was quiet. I haven't yet done the test socket test, as I don't want to unplug my router to do it in case that resets everythng - I'm led to believe it may make more sense to wait until I'm showing as officially 'connected' for 3 days, then see if the profile goes up. If it doesn't - then it's socket test and disconnecting any orange/white wires, as I recall...

I'm still a bit puzzled that our upstream speed is much higher than the downstream - well as a multiple anyway! Thought it was usually the other way round? And that error figure still looks odd...

But I've finally had a sensible email reply from Orange, (much more joy than the phone calls) who've said wait the three days (until tomorrow that is), then do 3 speedtests. That's all it says, but I'm assuming they also mean 'and come back to us if there's still a problem'. Be nice to think that's what they mean anyway. Not sure over what period they want the tests done though....

They also say 'I can confirm that we've arranged for your broadband service to be transferred to a network.' I haven't at this moment got a clue what they are on about, but hopefuly that's good news... maybe.....is it?

Thanks for all the input guys, it really is appreciated.

Hello Telnolies,

Please send me your details, broadband telephone number and alternate connect number and I will have your issue escalated. Someone will call you back.

Regards

In reply to a post by telnolies:

I'm still a bit puzzled that our upstream speed is much higher than the downstream - well as a multiple anyway! Thought it was usually the other way round?

Don't worry about the upstream; it's fixed at 448 K at the moment for the connection you are on, ADSL Max. Concentrate on the downstream.

"transferred to a network" probably means they are moving you to 21CN WBC ADSL2+ connection. What exchange?

With your results there is no harm in restarting router as long as you don't do it too often. Indeed it might even improve matters; it certainly can't make them worse.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Fri 31-Aug-12 00:30:33)

In reply to a post by telnolies:

Having spent many happy hours googling such things (inbetween outages and waiting while any other member of the family did anything on their pc's..) I now at least know what you mean!

Have a read around: http://www.robertos.me.uk/

What exchange? I've no idea.... is there an easy way to find out?

what exchange - solved it. South Milford, apparently.
Exchange details here:
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/MYSML

That's about a mile away. Now getting 0.03mb/s.... timing out when I check emails [censored].

Since I'm getting 1/100th of the speed I was promised, guess I only have to pay 1/100th of the line price, right?

We have just noticed something a bit odd about our phone wiring. The extension we are using isn't off the master box, ie - it bypasses the test socket altogether.

The cable for it runs directly to the pole outside, and there is no master box for it with test socket, just an ordinary one. This extension was installed by BT years ago - but they seem to have used the external wiring which was previously used for a second line to the building, long since discontinued, to connect up the extension. Is this normal....?

I will get round to trying the test socket tomorrow and see what happens.

Does the extension socket and the master socket have the same phone #?
What rooms are they in, to allow me to visualise it?
Which of the LJUs here: http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm does the extension look like?

In reply to a post by telnolies:

I will get round to trying the test socket tomorrow and see what happens.

The sooner the better!

Problems like yours are most often down to your home wiring, not the BB connection, and your wiring seems suspect.

Looks like an LJU5 to me. Our wiring is very simple. We have the main socket, in the hall. Off that is two cables, to two handsets.

In the study, about 10' away, is the extension socket, wired externally direct to the pole, off which is one phone and the orange router. The wiring is quite long - goes all round the house, so from the main cable junction on the wall that wire is about 80' to the socket. Plus another 15 yards heavy cable to the pole. All phones are on the same line, and naturally all sockets have ASDL/phone splitter connections. There are no faxes or anything else on the lines. All of course BT installed.

Only thing about using the test socket - since I know my profile is currently 0.14mb/s - which is pretty much what I'm getting - isn't that all I'm going to get regardless? It won't tell me why my profile is that, when according to BT I should be able to get 5mb/s.....? Or will it....?

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by telnolies:

"transferred to a network" probably means they are moving you to 21CN WBC ADSL2+ connection. What exchange?

Nope - our exchange doesn't support ADSL2 apparently.

Yes, it apparently does:

In reference to www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/MYSML:

South Milford Exchange

21CN WBC status: Tick Enabled

You're quite right! Dunno why I read it didn't... maybe dozed off waiting for the screen to refresh and dreamt it lol! Shouldn't that mean we should get even more than 5mb/s? Though when we asked BT they said that was the most we should expect... Right now I'd almost settle for the 1mb/s we got in the 'good old days' before orange 'improved' it....

In reply to a post by telnolies:

Looks like an LJU5 to me.

Does it it have the yellow capacitor?

So it has 2 phone sockets built in? Are the phone and router in same or diff sockets? Is phone filtered?

In master socket are the 2 handsets connected via a splitter? Are they both filtered?

Using the master socket will use diff wiring which may be more reliable which could eventually allow IP Profile to increase.

In reply to a post by telnolies:

Shouldn't that mean we should get even more than 5mb/s?

You are almost certainly too far to benefit from ADSL2+ (but you may) but you could well benefit from ADSL2 (w/out the '+'). In any case your upload speed could go up to 888 K or even over 1 Meg.

You are wasting time waiting for Orange. They can't do anything; the problem lies in your own home.

Does it it have the yellow capacitor? - yes.
'So it has 2 phone sockets built in? Are the phone and router in same or diff sockets? Is phone filtered?' Different sockets, phone filtered.
'In master socket are the 2 handsets connected via a splitter? Are they both filtered?' yes and yes.

'Using the master socket will use diff wiring which may be more reliable which could eventually allow IP Profile to increase.' There are logistical problems in doing that unfortunately, so I'd like to avoid it if possible as a long term solution.

Re problem being in my own house - it may be, but until recently we had 1mb/s, which is what the IP profile was. It's only the last week or two it has dipped to 0.1mb/s, and nothing in our house has changed. I'm keeping an open mind. But my question is still - when I try the test socket, what will that achieve when my profile is 0.14mb/s? Even if I'm currently experiencing a wiring issue, won't I just get about that, ie. what I'm getting now, anyway, and be none the wiser.....? If I'm understanding things right (and I'm probably not!) then I can only see if the problem can be sorted if my profile goes up first, which at the moment there is no sign of it doing so.....

In reply to a post by telnolies:

Does it it have the yellow capacitor? - yes.

Now we are getting somewhere! That's not good! It shows that the "extension" is a master socket. But as both sockets are on the same line, there are 2 master sockets on the same circuit, which is not to be recommended.

From what you say BT once installed an extension to the current line by using the socket for a previous 2nd line but w/out replacing it by a slave socket. They should never have done that. You may need to order them back to "normalise" your wiring.

You need to use the master socket in the short term to see if it gives better stats, not controlled by the low IP Profile, and to give the IP Profile a chance to rise, which it shows no sign of doing so in current socket.

You may not realise that the Sync speed is not dependent on the IP Profile; only the other way round.

You may raise all sorts of objections, but until you try the test socket you have nothing to go on.

'From what you say BT once installed an extension to the current line by using the socket for a previous 2nd line but w/out replacing it by a slave socket. They should never have done that. You may need to order them back to "normalise" your wiring.'
Interesting - yes, that's exactly what they did!

'You need to use the master socket in the short term to see if it gives better stats, not controlled by the low IP Profile, and to give the IP Profile a chance to rise, which it shows no sign of doing so in current socket.' Will be doing that tomorrow morning!

'You may not realise that the Sync speed is not dependent on the IP Profile; only the other way round.' No, I didn't realise; I thought the sync speed was governed by the profile - as I say, I am starting to understand a little but really know nothing about all this....

'You may raise all sorts of objections, but until you try the test socket you have nothing to go on.' Objections? No not at all. The main reason I haven't done it yet is here it's a time-consuning job - it's simple enough, but the wiring goes behind furniture etc which will need moving, and daughter was doing homework so didn't want to risk cutting her off for any length of time!

Many thanks for the help. Will try the test socket tomorrow and check the ring wire, and see what happens....

Are you sure the socket in hall is a master? Does it like a NTE5 on that page?

Another forlorn hope that might save you some work; only 1 side of the LJU5 has the yellow capacitor. Use only other side which is a slave.

xray - you are a genius!

Yes it's a master - it has an internal test socket. I haven't tested that yet, mainly because I think I've already proved you are right!

Last night I disconnected everything from the 'original' master socket. Today - we have 1.9mb/s! Not brilliant, not maybe max, but twice what we hever had before and clearly getting there! However, BT speedtest wouldn't test - 'unknown error, contact IP'. My guess, because we still have two master sockets....

Next test was to plug things back in - instantly lost connection. Unplugged them - connection back in a couple of minutes, at about 1.5mb/s. Yep, I think I can see what is going on here now. Hopefully profile will continue to go up as long as I don't use that socket...

I will test each of the two items individually from the 'original' master socket, but my guess is I will get the same result (but that will establish whether either of those, or the splitters they are using, are faulty). If I do, then the issue seems very, very likely to be the one you have highlighted - two master sockets on the same line, and an error by BT when they changed the lines over.

I will update on progress, but I take my hat off to you and am very, very grateful. Problem isn't solved of course yet, but knowing what it is (fingers crossed) means we can get there!

I'm not clear. Where is router plugged into? The "extension" LJU5? Which side?

Post router stats now.

In reply to a post by telnolies:

xray - you are a genius!

Yes it's a master - it has an internal test socket. I haven't tested that yet, mainly because I think I've already proved you are right!

Last night I disconnected everything from the 'original' master socket. Today - we have 1.9mb/s! Not brilliant, not maybe max, but twice what we hever had before and clearly getting there! However, BT speedtest wouldn't test - 'unknown error, contact IP'. My guess, because we still have two master sockets....

Next test was to plug things back in - instantly lost connection. Unplugged them - connection back in a couple of minutes, at about 1.5mb/s. Yep, I think I can see what is going on here now. Hopefully profile will continue to go up as long as I don't use that socket...

I will test each of the two items individually from the 'original' master socket, but my guess is I will get the same result (but that will establish whether either of those, or the splitters they are using, are faulty). If I do, then the issue seems very, very likely to be the one you have highlighted - two master sockets on the same line, and an error by BT when they changed the lines over.

I will update on progress, but I take my hat off to you and am very, very grateful. Problem isn't solved of course yet, but knowing what it is (fingers crossed) means we can get there!

These wiring diagrams for master socket and extension sockets will help you sort your telephone connection wiring.

For the modern digital telephone you now only need connections 2 and 5, the connection number 3 is the bell wire required for the old electro-mechanical telephone bell, it is better to not connect this wire as it can cause interference to your broadband connection.

Wire (B) 48v DC Live.

Wire (A) 0v DC Neutral.

http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/wiring_info.htm

http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wiring/UK_telephon...

http://www.rob-r.co.uk/other/UKphonecatwiring.htm

Edited by deleted (Sat 01-Sep-12 15:58:13)

Well.... we phoned BT and said it looked like their engineer may not have wired up the extension properly, could we speak to somebody about it. They basically said 'Go away, talk to Orange'. I explained it was nothing to do with Orange, or the internet; it was a while ago, when it was a BT line, it was a direct contract between us and BT to make equipment changes, and if their engineer had made a mess of it, it was a mater for BT, nothing to do with Orange. 'Go away'. Never mind, Orange sending engineer on Tuesday to sort it. We'll just have to pay.

The router is and was plugged into one of the two sockets in the 'extension' (Router stats below). We tried it in the test socket - connected briefly, then disconnected and stayed that way. Reconnected - by chance in the other of the two extension sockets - still no connection. It will only connect for any period of time in one of the two 'extension' sockets, (which tallies with what you predicted) and even then our speed is steadily decreasing (as you see below, gone are the giddy heights of 1.9mb/s we had this morning!) and BT Speedtest reports an apparent line fault.



I suspect that the speed loss is some combination of the line problem caused by the two master sockets, and profile issues of us messing about plugging the router into sockets which didn't work. Though the line fault indicated on speedtest obviously takes account of the profile.

I'm happy, because I'm convinced thanks to your advice we will get at least part of the problem solved on Tuesday as I'm sure you're right and at the least a major part of the problem is our wiring. Once the wiring is A1, then we can see if there is still an indicated line fault - it doesn't fill me with confidence that the nearest BT cabinet is broken and tied together with string (literally!) but no doubt that's just coincidence!

ADSL Status
This page shows information about your ADSL connection if applicable.
Status:
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Interleaved Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.3(ADSL2)
Data Rate Information:
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 664 (Kbps.)
Downstream 960 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication:
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 8.9 dB 10.8 dB
Line Attenuation 25.0 dB 48.0 dB

Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 10.9 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction NA NA
Interleaved Path FEC Correction 96 55
Fast Path CRC Error NA NA
Interleaved Path CRC Error 0 4
Loss of Signal Defect 3 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR NA NA
Interleaved Path HEC Error 0 4
Error Seconds 193 6
Statistics:
Received Cells 13521747
Transmitted Cells 978226









In the meantime, we tested the test socket

In reply to a post by telnolies:

The router is and was plugged into one of the two sockets in the 'extension'

Still not clear! Which one of the two sockets of the LJU5? The one with the yellow capacitor or w/out? Were your previous stats from the same one? Notice the Line Attenuation has reduced.

See that you have been moved to WBC and that you are now on ADSL2 as I suggested but you should be getting nearly 6 Meg,

Presume your line rental is with Orange. Hence that's why BT don't want to get involved.

EDIT: Tell BT Openreach eng that your line needs "normalising".

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sat 01-Sep-12 19:38:36)

An idea: Connect a phone to each of 3 sockets in turn, master and L&R of LJU5, call 17070 and listen to the welcome message "This circuit is defined as #". Check it is your same # on all of them. If you withhold your # dial 1470 in front of 17070.

In reply to a post by telnolies:

Well.... we phoned BT and said it looked like their engineer may not have wired up the extension properly, could we speak to somebody about it. They basically said 'Go away, talk to Orange'. I explained it was nothing to do with Orange, or the internet; it was a while ago, when it was a BT line, it was a direct contract between us and BT to make equipment changes, and if their engineer had made a mess of it, it was a mater for BT, nothing to do with Orange. 'Go away'. Never mind, Orange sending engineer on Tuesday to sort it. We'll just have to pay.

The router is and was plugged into one of the two sockets in the 'extension' (Router stats below). We tried it in the test socket - connected briefly, then disconnected and stayed that way. Reconnected - by chance in the other of the two extension sockets - still no connection. It will only connect for any period of time in one of the two 'extension' sockets, (which tallies with what you predicted) and even then our speed is steadily decreasing (as you see below, gone are the giddy heights of 1.9mb/s we had this morning!) and BT Speedtest reports an apparent line fault.



I suspect that the speed loss is some combination of the line problem caused by the two master sockets, and profile issues of us messing about plugging the router into sockets which didn't work. Though the line fault indicated on speedtest obviously takes account of the profile.

I'm happy, because I'm convinced thanks to your advice we will get at least part of the problem solved on Tuesday as I'm sure you're right and at the least a major part of the problem is our wiring. Once the wiring is A1, then we can see if there is still an indicated line fault - it doesn't fill me with confidence that the nearest BT cabinet is broken and tied together with string (literally!) but no doubt that's just coincidence!

BT is no longer responsible for your telephone extension sockets and wiring. Rewire it yourself it�s easy enough to do. You only connect two solid core wires to each extension socket (Blue with thin white bands) to terminal 2 and (white with thin blue bands) to terminal 5 and that�s it!

http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/wiring_info.htm

http://www.qvsdirect.com/4-Core-2-pairs-Telephone-Ca...

http://www.qvsdirect.com/Telephone-Cable-c-900.html?...

http://www.qvsdirect.com/Insertion-Tool-pr-18707.html

http://www.qvsdirect.com/Slimline-White-Telephone-So...

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Telephones_an...

Edited by deleted (Sun 02-Sep-12 12:13:09)

The router is now plugged into the non-capacitor side of the LSU5, and starting to pick up speed!



If I plug it onto the other side, it slows to a crawl, lowering the profile every 'training' interval until it gets to 0.1mb/s - again, pretty much what you said would happen. And as mentioned, if plugged into the test socket in the 'other' master, we get nothing. The reason I want Orange to check/repair (or at least be responsible for the checking of) the wiring is three-fold; firstly it looks like the wrong faceplate is being used and I don't think I'm allowed to touch that, but anyway I'd like them to confirm that for themselves; secondly neither they, or hopefully BT, can then argue it's our wiring if all is still not well - If I do it myself, no matter how well, both can argue it isn't right. And thirdly, the fact we lose connection altogether if we plug into the 'original' master test socket may be highlighting another issue....

My issue with BT (not that it's worth pursuing), is that Orange quite reasonably say they are not responsible if, prior to their 'ownership' of the line, BT made a mess of swapping the 2nd line for an extension - I agree entirely. The contract was with BT to do it, I paid BT, it was nothing to do with the internet as such though we were with BT at the time, and it's BT engineers who, if it is messed up, did so - they are the only people who are legally responsible, but refuse to even speak to me about it! It's no big deal, just down to experience.. and my permanent mantra 'however bad or frustrating Orange may be, remember BT were much worse' lol!

To be fair - apart from some wrong, misleading and contradictory information, in many ways Orange are dealing with this pretty well - all the signs are the causes are not down to them but are (1) the error made by BT in the wiring, and possibly (2) an additional line fault, though that might be down to (1) as well I guess.

and the 17070 test?

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

and the 17070 test?

Quiet. But profile is now starting to fall again

Edited by deleted (Mon 03-Sep-12 09:06:32)

No, the 3 circuit definitions: http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/freeserve/t/4153332...

Oh right - sorry. Yep, all correct.

What I don't understand - well OK, one of the many things I don't understand! - is that our upload speed stays pretty respectable, close to 1mb/s now. While our download varies between 1.9mb/s and 0.1 mb/s - though a bit more stable now it's in this socket and I'm not using the 'original' master at all. BT speedtest tells me '2mb/s is the maximum for our connection', but is that taking the profile into account? As asking BT directly, and checking on Zen which says the same thing - both tell me we should get 3mb/s..... I can dream!

Will update after engineer comes tomorrow.. should be fun!

Edited by deleted (Mon 03-Sep-12 19:35:24)

In reply to a post by telnolies:

Oh right - sorry. Yep, all correct.

I find it peculiar that you do not get BB on all sockets if they are on same circuit.

As I told you before IPP is derived from Connection Speed, not the other way round!

We do get it - just profile steadily nose-dives, or connection goes after a bit, if we use anything but this one socket...

And maybe just answered my own question - viz: exchange data below:

Exchange Information
Exchange: South Milford BT Code: MYSML
Location: Low Street, LS25 5AS
Distance:- Direct: 0 metres
(appx)* By Road: 0 metres
Status
ADSL enabled: August 20, 2003
DSL Max enabled: March 31, 2006
21CN WBC (Broadband) Enabled
21CN due : (PSTN) info N/A
BT Line Speed Estimation

Fixed ADSL: 2048 kbps (2 Mb)
DSL Max: 3000 kbps (3 Mb)
21CN WBC : 3000 kbps (3 Mb)

For ADSL the 2mb/s would be the maximum as indicated in our BT speedtest, not the 3mb/s BT/Zen say. Now you pointed out that our exchange does support ASDL2 - same as 21CN? - and our Orange page says connection is ADSL2. But does '21CN due : (PSTN) info N/A' mean that while the exchange supports it.. tough, because you can't have it? Should we be getting ADSL2 and aren't? And as for 'DSL max'... never even heard of it

Be patient with me, I'm trying to talk sense about things I know very little about here and probably not doing very well lol!

Edited by deleted (Mon 03-Sep-12 20:32:12)

According to Kitz, our attenuation figure should result in an IP profile of about 5.6mb/s with ADSL2....

So why BT speedtest is saying that 'max speed for our connection is 2mb/s' .... don't get it at all. Oh well.... maybe tomorrow I will find out some answers!

Edited by deleted (Mon 03-Sep-12 20:45:25)

In reply to a post by telnolies:

We do get it - just profile nose-dives if we use anything but this one socket...

Thought you said you get nothing from NTE5 master socket.

You're confusing me or are confused yourself.

1. You never were on Fixed ADSL
2. When you started this thread you were on ADSL Max (G.DMT), called DSL Max in that report
3. Your are now on ASDL2 (G992.3)
4. 21CN WBC enables ADSL2, which you are on, and ADSL2+, which is not much benefit to you
5. 21CN (PSTN) is the 21st Century Network phone system, which will never happen, so ignore it
6. Despite what the various checkers say, they are only vague estimates that don't know your line characteristics while your attenuation gives a much more accurate prediction of about 6 Meg on ADSL2.

In reply to a post by telnolies:

Oh well.... maybe tomorrow I will find out some answers!

The BT eng will know nowt about any predictions, only what you are actually getting on the day.

Oh joy, isn't the way this works wonderful.... Engineer replaces both face-plates. Refuses to comment on whether they were the wrong ones. Says the line itself seems fine, he thinks it should now be OK, but he can't do an 'internet health check'.

Why not?

Because that's not what he's been sent to do, and if BT finds he's tested their equipment without being told to, he gets sacked. No, if there's a problem he has to come back again and check it when he's been told to. Twenty minutes drive, 1 minutes work for something could easily have been checked now. Brilliant.

What speed should we expect to get? Yes he does know... but he's not allowed to tell us. Ye gods. BT's concept of 'customer service' doesn't change, does it. At least Orange staff don't seem to have rules that they have to be as unhelpful as possible, they just only understand one word in three that you say.

3 minutes after he left - it all goes dead. No phones, no internet, nothing. Phone Orange on mobile. Half way through verifying my identity - ie. about 20 minutes of Calcutta-English - it all comes back on. We now have 1mb/s profile, c 0.8mb/s speed. Hopefully the profile will now improve - I don't know how to check the sync rate? (DS attenuation down from previous constant of 49db to 44db, so something is better). If it doesn't, he says we'll just have to phone Orange - but good news is our wiring is now signed off, so any problems must be BT or Orange, not us. Until they find some way of blaming us so they can charge for the visit.

11 months and two weeks until we can end the contract and get satellite broadband....

Edited by deleted (Tue 04-Sep-12 16:53:14)

Alas its Openreach, and BT Wholesale is their customer, and Orange is the customer of BT Wholesale and you are the customer of Orange.

The equivalence rules mean engineers can be hand tied in what they do, to ensure everyone gets the same low level of service

I think if BT had their way, they'd just give me a box and a few trained pigeons.

Come to that.... be less traumatic, sometiems faster, and when they pee you off you can at least have the damn birds for dinner.... At least dealing with BT reminds you that no matter how bad Orange can be, they are by comparison wonderful.

I do remember one Indian gentleman (not Orange) on another matter who spent ages telling me that we must send our missionaries to the teapot....... Quite insistant he was.


He meant ''machinery to the depot'.... Reminds me of Fawlty Towers.... 'I speak Inglish, I learn it from a boook'.....

In reply to a post by telnolies:

Engineer replaces both face-plates.

What did he replace them with? Are there now wires attached to the faceplate in the hall leading to the other socket, or even vice versa?

I don't know how to check the sync rate?

Why not? You got it before with other stats. Did he give you a diff router?

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by telnolies:

Engineer replaces both face-plates.

What did he replace them with? Are there now wires attached to the faceplate in the hall leading to the other socket, or even vice versa?

I don't know how to check the sync rate?

Why not? You got it before with other stats. Did he give you a diff router?

Nope. He's made the study phone the master, and the hall phone the extension, so he says. Didn't change the wires, just two different faceplates. And did I get the sync speed? Here's the new router stats... I've seen so many damn stats I've probably forgotten what means what now.

Status: Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Interleaved Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.3(ADSL2)

Data Rate Information:
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1043 (Kbps.)
Downstream 1162 (Kbps.)

Defect/Failure Indication:
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.4 dB 15.1 dB
Line Attenuation 24.4 dB 44.0 dB

Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.7 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction NA NA
Interleaved Path FEC Correction 1136 415
Fast Path CRC Error NA NA
Interleaved Path CRC Error 2 93
Loss of Signal Defect 28 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR NA NA
Interleaved Path HEC Error 5 115
Error Seconds 999 243

Statistics:
Received Cells 13547551
Transmitted Cells 800858

Essentially - we're back at 1mb/s. Brilliant. We at least had 1.5mb/s before he came and 'fixed' it..... Probably ring Orange tomorrow and just swear at them - won't matter, most of the time they don't understand what I'm saying anyway. I'd ring BT and swear at them too, but as I'm not their customer, just their victim, I'm not allowed to talk to them..... happy days.

At least he brought the attenuation down to 44 dB on which you could get 7 Meg @ 6 dB NM.

But the NM is currently at 15 dB. Either the DLM will bring it down or Orange are holding it unnecessarily high as there have been a fair no. of reports of them doing. You need to keep your eye on it.

Rang Orange. They reset profile as they said it was stuck. Router is now plugged straight into test socket - he said do that and leave it like that until speed has reached c3mb/s, as the faceplate may be faulty. Yes, the brand new faceplate BT put in yesterday. I doubt it but do as I'm told.

Now getting 1.2mb/s.... hopefully climbing. He says give it 3 days, then ring back if necessary.

What I still don't get is why the BT speedtest always tells me that 'for your connection the max speed achievable is 2mb/s', regardless of what my actual speed/profile is. Even when we got close to the 2mb/s it still said that was the maximum. Though our upstream test result is consistently exceeding the 'maximum', if that makes sense!

What has to happen for that to change as Orange/BT/Zen all say my line should be good for 3mb-5mb/s?

Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Interleaved Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.3(ADSL2)
Data Rate Information:
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1072 (Kbps.)
Downstream 1461 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication:
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 5.6 dB 14.9 dB
Line Attenuation 24.3 dB 43.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.8 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction NA NA
Interleaved Path FEC Correction 2953 37
Fast Path CRC Error NA NA
Interleaved Path CRC Error 4 1
Loss of Signal Defect 0 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR NA NA
Interleaved Path HEC Error 21 0
Error Seconds 2 1
Statistics:
Received Cells 68604
Transmitted Cells 51367
********************************************
BTspeedtest
Download Speed 1.15 Mbps 0 Mbps
2 Mbps Max Achievable Speed
Download speedachieved during the test was - 1.15 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 0.8 Mbps-2 Mbps.
IP Profile for your line is - 1.29 Mbps

2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.
Upload Speed 0.87 Mbps 0 Mbps
0.83 Mbps Max Achievable Speed

Upload speed achieved during the test was - 0.87Mbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 0.83 Mbps

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Sep-12 10:29:16)

In reply to a post by telnolies:

What I still don't get is why the BT speedtest always tells me that 'for your connection the max speed achievable is 2mb/s'

Because BT Speedtester is entirely dependant on your Sync Speed which in turn is dependant on your NM. It's not the IPP that's stuck; it is exactly correct for your Sync (IPP = 88.2% Sync) as it was before. It looks more like the NM is being held high at 15 dB. AS I said keep an eye on that and if it does not come down after a few days, get on to Orange.

The new faceplate: Is it a standard NTE5 or a thicker filtered faceplate? BT fitted one of the latter for me and it was all shushy; since replaced it by NTE5. Have you tried BT Quiet Line Test with it in place? But it won't matter while you are plugged into test socket.

You never told me exactly what type of sockets were fitted and whether there is now only one with a yellow capacitor.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by telnolies:

The new faceplate: Is it a standard NTE5 or a thicker filtered faceplate? BT fitted one of the latter for me and it was all shushy; since replaced it by NTE5. Have you tried BT Quiet Line Test with it in place? But it won't matter while you are plugged into test socket.

You never told me exactly what type of sockets were fitted and whether there is now only one with a yellow capacitor.

What was previously the 'extension', in the study, is now the master - thicker plate with built-in filter. He said we did not need filters on anything now, though guy at Orange told me to use one with the test socket, which I have. Will try quiet line test when back to normal socket - though tried it now anyway, and was quiet with correct line ID.

The hall socket also has a new plate, single outlet.... and...yes it has a yellow capacitor. I told the guy what you had said re two masters/capacitors on the same line.. he grunted. Don't take that to heart, pretty much everything I said/asked he grunted. I've no idea whether he agreed or not... but seems maybe not....

Can you identify them on that BT Sockets page I gave you: http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm ?

Is the hall socket an NTE5?

Is the study socket now a single outlet? Does it have yellow capacitor?

I really don't have the time to read this whole thread, but.....

A couple of years ago I too was an Orange customer (rubbish service).

Which (consumers association) did a review of ISP's : Orange came 24th out of 24 - I left Orange.

Do I need to spell it out ?

No much help to OP!

To balance your criticism, I too have been an Orange customer for years; excellent connection, speed & reliability.

The new master looks like an NTE5 A master socket with splitter - though the outer casing is slightly different in design. I'm not sure I can spot the other one exactly, an LJU3 Master maybe? Here's a pic..

http://i49.tinypic.com/347wr9z.jpg

So..still two master sockets on one line?

Re savamac and above post about Orange... well reluctantly, at the moment I feel I have to sort of stand up for them. Jokes about the difficulties of understanding some of their English apart, I have to say their technical service is way better than when I last encountered it a few years back... when it was totally useless. In particular:

1) They answer the phone almost immediately once you've got through the computerised switchboard.
2) With one or two exceptions, they seem to understand what you're talking about pretty well, and respond sensibly not just with scripted answers.
3) Again with exceptions, they seem to have a reasonably good technical grasp - they understand what I'm saying (ie what Xray has told me lol!), and their suggestions are, if not yet effective, mainly sensible.

Nor am I by any means convinced the problem is Orange's fault. I'm keeping an open mind as to whether this is down to them, BT, both, or some other factor we haven't yet identified - though my view may change if and when we get to the bottom of it!

I do appreciate Xray's patience.... and now I've got this far, feel oblidged to keep posting as I know myself you sometimes google these type of threads years on when you have a similar issue, and it's soooo annoying if people don't post what happened! So if you're reading this in 2014..... I might even have 3mb/s by now lol!

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Sep-12 17:51:33)

Oh and look - Orange said the speed would change. It has - it's now... slower.

Data Rate Information:
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1039 (Kbps.)
Downstream 1359 (Kbps.)

1359, down from 1461 on my previous data post. And showing as connected for just over an hour, whereas it should have been connected for over 6 hours.

Something seems to have happened - numerous log entries showing 'Possible DoS attack detected from 192.168.*.****(00:1e:4c:a2:15:76)' which is the IP address of a laptop according to our Orange page. It's not the laptop that's caused all the problem, as we only put it on the network yesterday, but don't know what that implies? (Laptop checks as virus free, is firewalled, and working fine with internet). Never seen log entries like that before.

In reply to a post by telnolies:

The new master looks like an NTE5 A master socket with splitter

Is that an ADSL splitter? Does it say "V10" on it?

It still might be worth connecting router to that socket's ADSL.

I still need you to dial 17070 from every socket you have and confirm they all identify as the same circuit.

Can we cut out the merits or otherwise of Orange for the moment and only stick to the investigation in hand? It's getting difficult to see the wood for the trees.

NM ... NM ... NM! Useless to report sync w/out NM!

Ignore DOS attack from your own laptop. I've have them. Better to look out for :

PPP connection down (VC1)
PPP: IPCP down
PPP: LCP down
WAN link down (ADSL)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by telnolies:

The new master looks like an NTE5 A master socket with splitter

Is that an ADSL splitter? Does it say "V10" on it?

It still might be worth connecting router to that socket's ADSL.

I still need you to dial 17070 from every socket you have and confirm they all identify as the same circuit.

Well i think iy's an ADSL splitter, but can't see V10, it's a bit worn, so I'm going to swap it anyway, worth a try, have several to choose from. But don't want to connect it back to the socket's ADSL at the mo, as the Orange man asked me specifically not to, for 3 days anyway..

And already posted somewhere above about the ID test, easy to miss in all this lot! -done and all correct. Oh - and don't know what if anything you make of the 'DOS attack', but have Trend Housecall double-checking laptop in question as I type - not one I use, my daughter's.

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Sep-12 18:48:53)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

NM ... NM ... NM! Useless to report sync w/out NM!

Ignore DOS attack from your own laptop. I've have them. Better to look out for :

PPP connection down (VC1)
PPP: IPCP down
PPP: LCP down
WAN link down (ADSL)

Noise Margin 4.5 dB 15.2 dB

So yep increased.

And yep, all of the above, after about 2 dozen DOS attack reports.... sorry, posts getting out of sync here.

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Sep-12 18:34:24)

In reply to a post by telnolies:

And yep, all of the above, after about 2 dozen DOS attack reports

Which have nowt to do with "DOS Attack".

yep, saw that.

But now we have a change. You may have noticed up till now, my stats had always read

Status: Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Interleaved Path


NOW - it's changed.
Status:
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path

Don't know why - I did swap that filter, but only to one I'd been using previously, and i don't think that's what did it as was a while later, and we have never had 'fastpath' before even with this filter. The filters are both new, came with the brightbox. I'm hoping you're going to tell me this is a good sign....

Then again - BT speedtest now says max speed fo my connection is 1mb/s, not 2mb/s..... so is this worse?

'Fast path' sounds so much better than' interleaved'..... Other stats haven't changed - especially NM lol - otherwise I'd repost them. But have been googling NM - understand more what you mean now, I think.

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Sep-12 19:27:57)

Sounds as though the engineer wasn't given the job as a broadband fault but a PSTN voice fault. The remit for the broadband repair jobs is much wider than for basic voice faults, that's why he woulndn't/coulndn't help you with the sync tests etc.

You'll most likely need an SFI (broadband) fault reported and that way you should get the right engineer with correct skills, tools and work remit.

Good luck...

Oh, and line going dead after 3 minutes might be the automatic test system retesting the line after your engineer has closed his job

yep, that's exactly right.

Now we have profile and speed continuing to fall, but so is NM. Compare this earlier today:

Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Interleaved Path
Upstream 1072 (Kbps.)
Downstream 1461 (Kbps.)
Noise Margin 5.6 dB 14.9 dB
Line Attenuation 24.3 dB 43.5 dB
BTspeedtest
Download speedachieved during the test was - 1.15 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 0.8 Mbps-2 Mbps.
IP Profile for your line is - 1.29 Mbps

with this now:

Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Upstream 1043 (Kbps.)
Downstream 1107 (Kbps.)
Noise Margin 6.2 dB 14.6 dB
Line Attenuation 24.2 dB 43.5 dB
BT Speedtest
Download speedachieved during the test was - 0.85 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 0.4 Mbps-1 Mbps.
IP Profile for your line is - 0.98 Mbps

Note the change from interleaved to fast path. I've subbed the stats, hopefully including the more important ones.... Now if the NM is crucial for the sync is crucial for the profile is crucial for the speed.... then the NM falling should see the sync improve which.....oh lord knows, it's late, maybe I'll understand it like a flash of lightning in the morning. But probably not.

PS - 3 minutes later -
Noise Margin 6.2 dB 15.2 dB
Line Attenuation 24.2 dB 43.5 dB
NM up from 14.6 to 15.2. For no apparent reason.

Edited by deleted (Wed 05-Sep-12 23:25:54)

NM falling or rising by tenths is insignificant. It happens over time. You want to see it fall by 3dBs.

Fast Path would seem to indicate that the DLM is finding your line more stable, but there is no other evidence for this. I still think Orange is constraining your NM .

I repeat, in summary, your issue is mainly with the high NM. When it is 6 DB or less then you can consider your line is operating correctly. It may, however, not be the only contributor to your problems. I am still doubtful about the 2 masters and their effect on your connection.

You can forget the IP Profile and the BT Speedtest results at present. There is nothing wrong with them. They are derived entirely correctly from your Sync Speed which in turn is controlled by your NM. Hence I emphasis the importance of monitoring NM.

You#ve lost me!

In reply to a post by telnolies:

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by telnolies:

The new master looks like an NTE5 A master socket with splitter

Is that an ADSL splitter? Does it say "V10" on it?

Well i think it's an ADSL splitter, but can't see V10, it's a bit worn, so I'm going to swap it anyway, worth a try, have several to choose from

I thought the eng fitted new faceplates. How can they be worn? Swap it with what? How many faceplates did he leave? Are they all worn?

Or by splitter did you mean a dangly filter? I thought you meant the "ADSL splitter faceplate for NTE5 units" as in that Kitz Page. So just which type of socket is in the study?

In http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/freeserve/t/4153034... what did you mean by splitter. I took it to mean a phone splitter that splits 1 phone line into 2 phone sockets.

You really need to be more precise.

I have taken a 2nd opinion on your wiring configuration and we are both puzzled. I think we need to see pix of all your sockets both exterior and internals with the faceplates removed.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Thu 06-Sep-12 03:29:38)

In reply to a post by telnolies:

What was previously the 'extension', in the study, is now the master - thicker plate with built-in filter. He said we did not need filters on anything now, though guy at Orange told me to use one with the test socket, which I have. Will try quiet line test when back to normal socket - though tried it now anyway, and was quiet with correct line ID.

The hall socket also has a new plate, single outlet.... and...yes it has a yellow capacitor. I told the guy what you had said re two masters/capacitors on the same line.. he grunted. Don't take that to heart, pretty much everything I said/asked he grunted. I've no idea whether he agreed or not... but seems maybe not....

If you remove the faceplate from the "master" socket in the study does a phone work when connected to the hall socket? If the phone doesn't work then that would suggest you have a filtered voice extension from the back of the filtered faceplate (?) on the study "master" socket to the hall extension socket.

If that is the case then phones used in both the study and hall sockets will now not require dangle filters because their connections will be filtered by the filtered faceplate (?) on the "master" socket in the study.

The test socket, in this possible configuration, will be found in the NTE5 (?) "master" socket in the study once the filtered faceplate (?) is removed. Use a dangle filter in the test socket and connect up the router and a phone then, as soon as possible, check your router stats. Unfortunately this will mean that a phone connected to the hall socket will no longer work but the phone connected to the dangle filter in the test socket in the study will.

If your sync speed does not improve (given that such a configuration is the case) then we can safely assume that you have serious issues with your wiring exchange side of the NTE5 (?) �master� test socket.

I am trying to be precise, but I'm talking about things I do not pretend to understand, using terminology that until a week ago I'd never heard, have but the vaguest comprehension of which of the dozens of terms and statistics I'm encountering have any importance and why, and getting occasional wild-cards like Orange telling me I'm launching a DOS attack when I'm not and a grunting BT engineer who appears to have ignored your advice I passed on to him, so it's not surprising if I'm not getting it right all the time!

' what did you mean by splitter. I took it to mean a phone splitter that splits 1 phone line into 2 phone sockets.' Exactly that, in that case.

'Or by splitter did you mean a dangly filter? I thought you meant the "ADSL splitter faceplate for NTE5 units" as in that Kitz Page. So just which type of socket is in the study?' Sorry, meant the filter. Socket is, as I said, the NTE5 as shown on the Kitz page.

I'll sort out pics later and post a link.

Edited by deleted (Thu 06-Sep-12 08:55:05)

4M2 - Yep, all of that is spot on.

I've just read on another site that that 'every 3db of NM over 6db will cause between 0.4 and 1.2mb/s speed loss'. Now if that is true, the c15db NM I have would indeed account for the speed loss - take the average 0.8 x 3, another 2.4mb/s would give us about what I'd expcect - and that NM figure is if anything creeping up, not going down, 15.4db now.

Doesn't explain why I have that NM, but as xray says, could be the route to a solution. I'll give it another day, then put that to Orange.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

!

In reply to a post by telnolies:

I think we need to see pix of all your sockets both exterior and internals with the faceplates removed.

Master - Front & Inside. Currently with one phone and router connected direct to test socket, via ADSL filter.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2wf0aad.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/2lur8y.jpg

Extension, Front and Inside. Nothing connected to it, and not working when test socket is being used.
http://i49.tinypic.com/2i0c6cl.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/347wr9z.jpg

And for fun - I know it's irrelevant, but the state of the nearest BT box, been like that for weeks. I'm beginning to think the string holding it together is actually part of our line.....
http://i50.tinypic.com/1hezxf.jpg

The master doesn't look like a standard NTE5. I'm guessing an NTE5 with a BT Broadband Accelerator/I-Plate built in (removes the ring wire).

Notice that it has wires off the faceplate. They must be for the extension, tho' of diff colour (???). That is why the extension phone doesn't work when you remove face plate, not cuz it's filtered as 4M2 suggested.

So that suggests that the extension isn't wired all the way back to the pole as you thought or the eng did change some wiring. Did the previous NTE5 master in the hall have wires off the faceplate?

Rang Orange. They now also agree there is something badly wrong BT side. They are getting BT to check the exchange, and arranging an engineer to give us a Broadband Health Check. Earlier stats had shown NM reaching 34db at one point, for no apparent reason, which does seem way wrong.

It also higlights the value, if you're pig ignorant like me, of getting some basic understanding of the issues from people on this forum. Even if people here can't solve it for you if you can talk to Orange, even vaguely, about your router stats, NM, profile etc, they pay MUCH more attention to you. Had I known more to begin with, I think I could have reached this stage weeks ago

Ignore It still might be worth connecting router to that socket's ADSL. Was confused by move of master and study does not have an ADSL socket anyway.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

The master doesn't look like a standard NTE5. I'm guessing an NTE5 with a BT Broadband Accelerator/I-Plate built in (removes the ring wire).

Notice that it has wires off the faceplate. They must be for the extension, tho' of diff colour (???). That is why the extension phone doesn't work when you remove face plate, not cuz it's filtered as 4M2 suggested.

Yes - green and black from the "master" faceplate, red and white at the extension? I don't think we are quite "out of the woods" yet!

What range of downstream sync speeds would one expect with adsl2, 44dB attenuation and 15dB SNRM, fast path or interleaved? I've had no experience of adsl2

I agree the wiring is puzzling. Remember this was the installation where it was said that both sockets were wired back to pole b4 eng came.

7 Meg @ 6 dB NM; perhaps 4 Meg @ 15 dB NM.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

The master doesn't look like a standard NTE5. I'm guessing an NTE5 with a BT Broadband Accelerator/I-Plate built in (removes the ring wire).

Notice that it has wires off the faceplate. They must be for the extension, tho' of diff colour (???). That is why the extension phone doesn't work when you remove face plate, not cuz it's filtered as 4M2 suggested.

So that suggests that the extension isn't wired all the way back to the pole as you thought or the eng did change some wiring. Did the previous NTE5 master in the hall have wires off the faceplate?

A standard NTE5 - no it doesn't look like it does it,that's why I was dubious...shape of the front of the box is slightly different too. He said it was the 'latest one'.... whatever that means.

I'm sure the extension is wired back to the pole - you can follow it all the way there, it's wired straight out through the wall and round the house. Previous NTE5 wires - think so, but I'm not sure, sorry. But that would make sense - main line comes into master, then feeds BACK to pole via the same cabling (cable but not wires obviously), where it connects to extension line and comes back to house again. I can't see how else you connect the extension so that it is affected by the use of the test socket - which we know it is. Sounds an odd way to do it, but maybe because the cabling was already there for the original second line? Or is it just how it's done....

That means of coures you're sending a signal down the large diameter cable from the pole to the house wall, through a smaller cable to the master box, then through the small internal cables ... then back through the same cable to the pole, then same again down the second cable from the pole (where the two cables must connect) for the extension. Now from what I vaguely remeber from doing electrics at school, that isn't always a very good idea if you're repeatedly changing cable types and resistance... but maybe that's fine for phones? Unless of course the signal goes all the way back to the exchange or some other junction before they make a connection and come back to the extension! I've no way of seeing what hapens at the pole, the cables are covered.

Here's the diagram, way I think it is - I've just shown a cable as a single line in a single directuion, I appreciate that's not how it works but it's easier to see what's going on..

http://i49.tinypic.com/2lut2ro.jpg

As above - Broadband Health Check and exchange check now happening, will update with results....

Edited by deleted (Thu 06-Sep-12 13:25:32)

!) The Master is Standard NTE5 main unit on the wall, with 3 wires(?) to the detached bit, indicating one extension, and the big lump is the latest Openreach interstitial filtered faceplate as fitted to FTTC master sockets, so presumably these days to ADSLx as well. Nothing special about VDSL2 v ADSLx filtering. Saves the engineer having to play with the extension wiring when fitting it. The original NTE5A faceplate with the phone socket is on the front of it.

In a way it fits like an iPlate, but isn't. Though of course it incorporates the iPlate ring wire filter.

2) Then how do you explain the wires to the master faceplate and the fact that removing the faceplate stops the extension working? Doing so must break the connection to the extension.

One other thought guys.... and this is probably complete nonsense but...

We originally had the second line because the lines here were DACS, and we needed it to get BB. The engineer as I recall - and this was a muttered comment 8 years ago - when he took out the second line said something about he fixed it so they couldn't DACS our remaining line. Is it possible that the two cables don't connect at the pole at all, but indeed somewhere further up the system, in such a way the lines can't be DACS ?

Now I have NO IDEA what 'DACS' means, then or now, and I'm pretty sure it's irrelevant. But since we seem to be looking for something odd... well maybe that might suggest something odd....

And Xray - my thoughts re the extension too, see my post and diagram above yours.... the line to the extension must go THROUGH the face plate on the master via the wires you refer to, back inside the same cable to the pole, and hence then to the extension. Remove the faceplate - you disconnect extension.

Perhaps the engineer is putting in two master sockets because he thinks we have two cables coming directly off the line, when in fact we don't - the master comes off the line, but the extension isn't wired directly off the line, it's wired off a 'return' from the master to the pole, if that makes sense, all wrong terminology I'm sure!

Edited by deleted (Thu 06-Sep-12 13:48:49)

Ah, I wondered all along about DACS! Dunno much about it.

Oh lord..... if you don't know, what chance have I got lol!

But I can see 4 theoretical possibilities for wrong wiring -

1) That the lines don't connect at the pole, but go way back. What should be a nice new fresh signal coming to the extension has actually been round our house, through the face plate, and back down the line to the exchange or wherever before coming back down again.... though not sure how that would affect the router, now off the test socket? But could maybe affect the NM recorded on the line...

2) That the second master socket is because they are assuming both cables come off the main line when they don't; one is a return from the master, and it's the roblem you first suggested of two masters on one line.

3) That they have imrpovised and used spare wires in the cable to send a 'return' to the pole for the extension rather than recable to the socket, which is causing problems.

4) That it's an unknown issue due to past DACS...

Now all may be, probably are, complete nonsense - but seems we are looking for something very odd so who knows....

Possibly the OR guy has used the second line pairs, originally installed for two lines feeding the premises, for rigging up the extension: orange and white to the back of the NTE5, green and black from the NTE5 faceplate to a junction box; orange and white pair from the junction box to the extension. Green and black pair not used for the extension since green and black pairs feeding both the master and the extension would be confusing...

In reply to a post by telnolies:

Oh lord..... if you don't know, what chance have I got lol!

But I can see 4 theoretical possibilities for wrong wiring -

1) That the lines don't connect at the pole, but go way back. What should be a nice new fresh signal coming to the extension has actually been round our house, through the face plate, and back down the line to the exchange or wherever before coming back down again.... though not sure how that would affect the router, now off the test socket? But could maybe affect the NM recorded on the line...

2) That the second master socket is because they are assuming both cables come off the main line when they don't; one is a return from the master, and it's the roblem you first suggested of two masters on one line.

3) That they have imrpovised and used spare wires in the cable to send a 'return' to the pole for the extension rather than recable to the socket, which is causing problems.

4) That it's an unknown issue due to past DACS...

Now all may be, probably are, complete nonsense - but seems we are looking for something very odd so who knows....

3) seems the most likely

Keep the set up as it is for a while, i.e. router and phone connected to the NTE5 test socket with a dangle filter, without using the extension socket (hope that will not be inconvenient,) which was advised by Orange, and see how the line performs...

If there are continuing problems then Orange will have to send out an SFI engineer to sort out your line exchange side of the test socket.

Yep, I think that would make electrical sense. It begs two questions:

1) Where is the junction box? At best, it's at the pole. BUT - does the signal go way back somewhere before that connection is made - remember the cable to the 'extension' was originally a second line so went to the exchange; has somebody made the connection there to stop the line being DACS or whatever reason? If so, our signal which should be coming one mile is actually going three..... to our master, back to the exchange, and then back to the extension.

2) If it's at the pole - should there be two master sockets on the line, or are they thinking the 'extension' cable is coming straight off the line rather than already going through the master?

Guess we'll have to wait for the engineer to find out - hoefully it's not the guy who just grunts

In reply to a post by telnolies:

Yep, I think that would make electrical sense. It begs two questions:

1) Where is the junction box? At best, it's at the pole. BUT - does the signal go way back somewhere before that connection is made - remember the cable to the 'extension' was originally a second line so went to the exchange; has somebody made the connection there to stop the line being DACS or whatever reason? If so, our signal which should be coming one mile is actually going three..... to our master, back to the exchange, and then back to the extension.

2) If it's at the pole - should there be two master sockets on the line, or are they thinking the 'extension' cable is coming straight off the line rather than already going through the master?

Guess we'll have to wait for the engineer to find out - hoefully it's not the guy who just grunts

The guy who grunts was probably only concerned with ensuring that your phone equipment would not cause any problems with the broadband signal - it seems he was not authorized to test the quality of your broadband signal exchange side of the NTE5 test socket. Only an OR SFI engineer can do that.

I was just hypothesizing about the use of the second line wires, junction box etc.

Yep I know..... it's not that he did anything wrong, just not easy to communicate with

And thinking more - there IS a reason the connection for the extension may be at the EXCHANGE, not the pole, daft though it seems. Re above comment about engineer 'fixing it so they can't DACS your line'?

Well - maybe he did that by running the 'return' down the existing cable, not to the pole but back to the exchange (or some sub-station or whatever) then connecting there to our 'extension', while leaving it appearing in some ways to be (as it was) a separate line, and DACSing our line with itself! Would have seemed a good idea 8 years ago, when here max speed was 1mb/s anyway.

That would explain his comment and the wiring... but it could also mean our signal, instead of travelling one mile from the exchange, is going 3 miles - a mile to our master, another mile back to exchange, and a third mile back to the extension! No wonder we'd have a high NM!

Probably complete and utter nonsense of course.... but then again. Engineer coming Monday pm, will update then ... thanks for help and support guys!!!

Edited by deleted (Thu 06-Sep-12 14:52:47)

Good luck - please leave the set up as it is, i.e. router and phone in the test socket via the dangle filter as advised by Orange, until the engineer comes. He may be able to give you more information about the line(s) when he does the inspection and the tests.

You sure there is no junction box, hidden, perhaps, in loft or eaves? No way is the circuit going all way back to exchange and return.

Are there 2 or 3 wires connected to master faceplate? Hard to see.

Pix of all the cables from extension may help. What is there where the pole cable meets the building?

Edited by XRaySpeX (Thu 06-Sep-12 22:48:21)

I would think there must be a junction box somewhere in order that a second line or a spare pair from the exchange could be used in the future.

Seems likely that the unused 2nd line from premises side of the junction box has somehow been utilized to rig up the extension? If the extension is from a filtered faceplate on the master then that filtered voice signal shouldn't cause any problems for the broadband by which ever means it's routed?

DACS is "digital audio (or access as some say!) carrier system".

It's basically a small box of tricks which converts a single pair (normally the d-side pair) into 2 seperate voice lines; so that's 1 line from exchange to DACS and 2 lines out from DACS to subscriber.

They're normally located close to the house, usually pole top but occasionally on the house wall.

They were popular many years ago when line plant was scarce and everyone had voice only lines (before ADSL took off!)

When your DACS was removed for ADSL, the engineeer would have used the original pair from the excahnge, so there would have been no reason to "reserve" any other d-side or e-side pair using any of the convoluted techniques suggested, i.e. extensions back to the exchange etc.

However, you may be correct with regards the extension being "backwired" out of one NTE back to the pole and then back again into the other room. "Overhead" extensions are not good engineering practice but they have been done before Why, I've no idea, it would be easier to cleat a cable round the wall unless there's obstructions (nice diagram BTW)!

One thing's certain: the line or extension will not be backwired all the way back to the excnahge or even the cab; if anything it will be crimped out at the top of the pole dropwire to dropwire!

Let everyone know what happens when your engineer comes round

and what's your view of 2 masters on same circuit?

Difficult to tell from where I am!

From the OP's description it sounds likely that in the past, before DACS, removal that the house acually did have 2 seperate lines from the DACS, hence 2 NTE5 master sockets.

After DACS removal, one of the NTE5s was made into the only "master" while the other NTE5 appears to have been wired as an extension. Obviously this would cause confusion, but since an NTE5 is electrically the same as a master LJU, the engineer probably didn't see this as a problem. Afterall, if he's used existing dropwire spans to create an overhead extension, I don't imagine he'll have been to concerned about using an NTE5 as an extension!

Wonder why OP gets diff BB from diff sockets if electrically equiv. The round the houses extension?

Dont expect eng visit to fix NM; only Orange can do that.

Right guys..... I can now tell you what happened. Second engineer arrived 17.30 today - well yesterday actually. He has just left, at 00.10 this morning! He tells me the following:

1) As Xray highlighted, there should not have been two masters, with two capacitors, on the line. Nor should one extension have been fed back to the pole and then to the other one. He has no idea why the original second line wasn't taken from the 'spare line' wiring in the original cable, why the first engineer put on two new master sockets, or why he didn't standardise the wiring.

But none of that was the main problem!

2) He found a very high level of REIN (in simple terms for anyone who like me doesn't know these things, electrical intereference), which wasn't from our house. This was tracked down to a neighbours Wii.. in the middle of their dinner... whoops...

But that wasn't the main problem either!

3) The problem was the cable to our house. At the pole outside, sync speed was 5.0mb/s. 20 feet away, it was 0.5mb/s. But - all his initial tests showed there was nothing wrong with line or cable - which is why he spent 3 hours, in the dark and pouring rain, climbing 6 different poles to find where the signal was being lost! In the end he wired our line up to the spare wires in the cable - and hey presto...



The guy was a star. Oh and he could, and did, reset the NM to 6db, which - pretty close - is what it now is.

We've been asked to monitor this for a bit, as it may be necessary to replace the cable entirely.... and a neighbour has also had problems, so there may be something else in the wiring at that pole...but compared to 0.1mb/s.... this is internet heaven!

So... if you're reading this because you've googled some of the issues and are getting nowhere - my advice is very much to talk to the guys on here; they may not be able to fix it for you, but without the help of other posters, especially Xray, I would not have been able to understand enough of the problem to persevere and get this fixed - many thanks guys.

As for Orange - well 5/10. Because while their technical service has got better, apparently they had access to the same stats as the BT engineeer and should have been able to tell weeks ago that there was clearly a mega problem on our line and ordered a Broadband Health Check then, not waited 6 weeks.

Cheers guys!

Edited by deleted (Tue 11-Sep-12 00:39:59)

Thanks & well done!

Router stats now?

Perhaps you can't blame Orange too much if an Openreach eng, with experience of phone cabling, on the spot wasn't able to find it, you can't really expect BB support staff to spot it remotely from a few numbers.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Thanks & well done!

Router stats now?

Perhaps you can't blame Orange too much if an Openreach eng, with experience of phone cabling, on the spot wasn't able to find it, you can't really expect BB support staff to spot it remotely from a few numbers.

Ah, but the first engineer (Mr. Grunt) was told to investigate 'damaged faceplates' - because Orange can only use certain report codes to BT and don't have one for 'BT have put two master sockets on one line' lol! So I tell the guy in Bombay who tells the guy in wherever who tells BT Wholesale who tells BT Openreach... by which time it's become 'damaged faceplates'. Send three and fourpence.....

Thus first engineer said he couldn't look at the internet problem, and didn' t - though apparently what he did do broke every rule in the book. Second engineer came for the internet fault, took one look at his data records and said 'you have a major problem'. Which, he in due course explained Orange should have seen too, it was that bad.

And you'll see below that while NM is rising a little - which is I think maybe kind of good as speed isn't falling - error seconds are going up. Methinks they will have to change the cable - I think he's expecting to, but none of us felt like doing it at 1.00 in the morning, and he's left his phone number for me to get back to him directly!

ADSL Status

Status:
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.3(ADSL2)

Data Rate Information:
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1039 (Kbps.)
Downstream 4983 (Kbps.)

Defect/Failure Indication:
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 5.7 dB 8.9 dB
Line Attenuation 24.2 dB 43.5 dB

Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.8 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 284 16
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 3 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 1203 12
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 170 20

Statistics:
Received Cells 1078756
Transmitted Cells 255976

Much better! Still a bit slow for your attn., somewhat due to the 9 dB Target NM. Give it a few days to settle.

Don't worry about ES as long as not much more than 1 per min. on Fast Path.

Could go on ad nauseum about 1st eng dereliction of duty, but it's not a quantum leap from 'damaged faceplates' to "Oh, the backplates behind them are incompatible!" for someone whose job is phone wiring . That's not just a BB problem.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Tue 11-Sep-12 13:43:01)

Oh happy days! The exchange has now detected we have a decent line, so has auto switched us to ADSL2+ - ie, have an extra mb/s ! And yes, as Xray says engineer confirms the error seconds is OK for our new speed of connection. Next door are now wanting to know why THEY only get 3.7MB/s lol - a few weeks back they were bragging about it

We can all use the internet at once now instead of taking turns...very weird!

Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)

Data Rate Information:
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1048 (Kbps.)
Downstream 5743 (Kbps.)

Defect/Failure Indication:
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.1 dB 6.3 dB
Line Attenuation 24.3 dB 46.5 dB

Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.7 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 122 67
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 4 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 107 114
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 404 87

Statistics:
Received Cells 29805
Transmitted Cells 3676

5743Kbps is still a touch on the low side - 6400Kbps might be expected with 47dB attenuation and 6db SNRM - but considering the problems that you have had I reckon that's fine

Your neighbour may indeed be bragging about 3.7MB/sec since that is 29.6Mbps LOL!

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Your neighbour may indeed be bragging about 3.7MB/sec since that is 29.6Mbps LOL!

Now look, I can understand when Xray was getting peeved cos I hadn't a clue what he was going on about NM for, but you're now bleating cos I use a capital letter when I shouldn't lol!

Just look at my first posts on here, comparatively I'm now an internet genius!

And yep, frankly you could tell me I should be getting 5MB, 5GB or just about anything else, after a few weeks on 0.1Mb/s (!) I'm really not going to complain!

In reply to a post by telnolies:

Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Downstream 5743 (Kbps.)
Noise Margin 6.1 dB 6.3 dB

NM is now good but Sync still about 1 Meg shy on ADSL2+ as 4M2 says.

But you'd be better off on plain ADSL2 (G992.3) where you might reach 8 Meg. Try forcing it to G992.3 on this hidden page: http://192.168.1.1/xc324m12sdlo.htm (you might need to click and login this link twice).

In reply to a post by telnolies:

...but you're now bleating cos I use a capital letter when I shouldn't lol!

Sorry it was just a joke, but somebody reading this thread might think that your neighbour has a FTTC service and such a speed might just possibly be available to you