BT v Plusnet on unbundled exchange

Hi all,

I am on an unbundled exchange and am considering either plusnet or BT as my broadband provider.

I've heard stories that BT throttle the Plusnet service on unbundled exchanges resulting in a slower speed than if I'd have gone with BT Broadband.

Is this still true? I've not found much information online about this specific question.

Kind regards

Daniel

What you suggest is not true and has never been true, hence why no information available on it, other than those peddling the myth.

Line speed the two should be the same

Hi again MrSaffron. How do these myths start? The reason I ask is that I was told this may be the case (about slower speeds for non BT providers on unbundled) by somebody who is an IT consultant and so I am inclined to take their word for it?

IT Consultant can mean someone who has done a 2 week excel course

PlusNet is actually owned by BT so makes no sense doubly.

BT Wholesale sells its products to over 100 providers and the performance in terms of line speed is the same across all of them, apart from where the provider requests changes e.g. EE can often be slower but that is down to what they ask for rather than a conspiracy.

I think what may be happening is that the performance issues that Sky, TalkTalk have on exchanges where they do not have their unbundled hardware has morphed into what you posted and this is not because of what BT do, but because Sky and TalkTalk simply do not buy the capacity from BT Wholesale to let the 5 to 10% of customers on that product to go at decent speeds all the time.

Thank you MrSaffron.

I was erring to go with Plusnet so your info has helped me make up my mind. Just need to get the phone line connected up now!

Thanks again for your help on this and my previous posts.

Kind regards
Dan

PlusNet do have a traffic management system, but the only people worried about it are non-PlusNet users. I have yet to see anyone on Plusnet with any opinion on it other than approval.

They used to have a "slow-down" system just like many ISPs including BT Retail used to, and some still do, but on the unlimited packages this is no longer the case.

You can see the speed management figures for the allowance packages here, and their explanation of why their traffic management/prioritisation system, (applicable to all packages), is an advantage over ISPs without it here.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 23-Sep-13 12:43:12)

In reply to a post by digitaldanuk:

Hi again MrSaffron. How do these myths start? The reason I ask is that I was told this may be the case (about slower speeds for non BT providers on unbundled) by somebody who is an IT consultant and so I am inclined to take their word for it?

Generally this sort of myth starts because IT people can be conspiracy nuts (I feel I can say this as I am an IT person). The belief is that no private company like BT would provide the same service to its "competitors". My own belief is that BT wholesale are trying to make money for a service and if they were found to be doing this sort of underhanded dealing there would be massive backlash - they just wouldn't do it.

Whilst BT probably performs better than plusnet at busier times this isnt due to BTw throttling plusnet but rather plusnet's own internal policies.

The IT consultant may have also encountered the ongoing issue at Plusnet where their record of some IP Profiles are not promptly updated to match the BTw IP Profiles. This would indicate slow throughput when compared to BT Retail throughput speeds if he didn't check the Plusnet site for a user's profile and relied only on the information given when doing a BTw line test.

Thank you everybody for this very insightful info. I have learned a lot from this forum! Great help and really appreciate it.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

Whilst BT probably performs better than plusnet at busier times this isnt due to BTw throttling plusnet but rather plusnet's own internal policies.

Errrm?

Based on what please? Other than your own incorrect assessment of PlusNet's prioritisation system which is specifically designed to improve busy period performance compared to ISPs such as BT Retail which do not have it. Or - maybe BT does! PlusNet's traffic management expertise probably being why they bought it.

Something that has been bothering me. Why do you mention "on unbundled exchange" in your Subject please? It's irrelevant to both BT Retail and PlusNet.

For info really. I figured BT may be a bit more ruthless on unbundled exchanges due to less competition etc.

I stated it for info only in case it made a different to the speeds. Why has it been bothering you?

When you say unbundled exchanges you have the definition wrong I believe. Not having a go, but just like people to have the right information.

An unbundled exchange is by definition one where BT Wholesale based services are sold by BT Retail, PlusNet, Zen, IDNet, AA, Entanet and many others. In addition a provider like C&W, Sky, or TalkTalk also have their own hardware at the exchange.

Thus by definition there is MORE competition as more providers have kit installed in the exchange.

I suspect you were referring to exchanges where Sky and TalkTalk do not have their own network available, which would be a non unbundled exchange.

Differences in quality of experience with BT Wholesale services may be experienced between exchanges because of the presence of either their old 20CN network or the better 21CN WBC network.

The big difference as others have said between two BT Wholesale based services on the same exchange, is usually the amount of bandwidth the provider actually buys from BT Wholesale.

Because it was irrelevant, and it's amazing how many people have the wrong idea about what unbundling means . It was possible you were one of them.

Don't know much about FTTC but if one took a line rental and fibre broadband package with ISP's such as TT or Sky who have LLU kit (previously used for ADSL2+) in an exchange would that FTTC service be full LLU?

Good question. I don't think so, but it is possible. It doesn't really matter, as the issue with full LLU is the phone line if you want to migrate away and that still applies.

How the FTTC migration away is handled I forget for the moment.

Incidentally, the MSAN's still carry ADSL2+ as well as (often) the FTTC.

Full LLU (MPF) is where the copper from the exchange to the premises carries both voice and ADSLx from the same supplier's MSAN. With FTTC the voice and VDSL2 signals are split off at the FTTC cabinet, with the voice getting back to the exchange via the old copper and the FTTC being handed over to the ISP via a GEA link at possibly a different exchange. Hence my doubt.

Just to add to the good info that others have given you.

Just remember that BT Wholesale sell their Products to a number of ISPs.

As far as BT Wholesale is concerned, BT Retail is just another ISP (along with PN etc).

BT Wholesale are NOT allowed to give discriminatory bias in favour of any of its ISP Customers.

BT Retail has NO influence over the service given to other ISPs.

Minor change is the competitive market areas, where providers are allowed within reason to negotiate discounts, hence how PlusNet is able to be so competitive in some parts of the UK.

I would think there is one missing step from the following for 'Full LLU' FTTC providers, like TT & Sky.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

With FTTC the voice and VDSL2 signals are split off at the FTTC cabinet, with the voice getting back to the exchange via the old copper and the FTTC being handed over to the ISP via a GEA link at possibly a different exchange.

... and the voice being handed over from the BT PTSN to the ISP via its DSLAM in same exchange.

I assume you mean the same original exchange? Or are you suggesting the voice also somehow gets routed to the FTTC head-end exchange if not the original one?

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 23-Sep-13 18:00:33)

Do you know which exchange you are connected to, remember if it is outside of PN's "low cost" area you'll be paying more than the headline grabbing "from" prices.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Full LLU (MPF) is where the copper from the exchange to the premises carries both voice and ADSLx from the same supplier's MSAN. With FTTC the voice and VDSL2 signals are split off at the FTTC cabinet, with the voice getting back to the exchange via the old copper and the FTTC being handed over to the ISP via a GEA link at possibly a different exchange...

So there still could be some confusion with the word "unbundled" when it comes to FTTC provisions: perhaps one could say with FTTC line rental and BB packages provided by the likes of Sky and TT the local loop is not actually unbundled in the manner formally associated with full LLU?

The same exchange as where the old copper ends.

In the 'Full LLU' FTTC case does the old copper connect to the BT PTSN and is then led off to the ISP's DSLAM or does it connect directly to the ISP's DSLAM?

I would have thought the latter, by drawing an analogy with either LLU ADSL where the old copper goes directly ISP's DSLAM and. in the case of Partial LLU, is then led off to the BT PTSN.

I don't think it's quite so simple .

The point is the reason on all ADSLx that the copper goes to the DSLAM/MSAN is that it is there the combining and splitting of the voice and broadband signals takes place. On FTTC that function is carried out on the FTTC cabinet DSLAM.

I'd be fairly sure that on BT Wholesale FTTC the copper gets removed from the exchange DSLAM/MSAN at some point, though not necessarily immediately the user migrates away from ADSLx. (I think I raised this a few months ago and one of the engineers said it might be when ports on the MSAN are needed).

On what was an MPF circuit I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't get moved to WLR off the DSLAM PDQ, as the port is more likely to be needed for MPF.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't get moved to WLR off the DSLAM PDQ, as the port is more likely to be needed for MPF.

I was talking about Full LLU (MPF) providers only. Surely even when providing FTTC BB, Sky & TT keep the phone on their MPF network, not WLR?

Don't know.

Seeing as WLR is an Openreach product, not a BTW one .... Need to check the pricing.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 24-Sep-13 00:43:52)

its not a good idea to bring that up again.

You offered no rational explanational for your comments on that other than to suggest I was been bonkers.

Silver traffic was squeezed, its there as plain as day to see. But another issue is the number of complaints on plusnet's forums and the people messaging me (who seemed too scared to speak out on here).

Then we have the mysterious peak time latency spikes that have no official explanation put to them.

I also happen to have access to some plusnet lines as well now on my own exchange, so also have some first hand comparisons.

I have never claimed plusnet is X amount slower but you do seem very overly defensive of the isp, you are only a customer, but do act at times as if you need to be their PR man or something.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

Then we have the mysterious peak time latency spikes that have no official explanation put to them.

What "mysterious peak time latency spikes"? There was an issue, months ago, which was extensively investigated and fixed. AFAIK there isn't now, other than a very slight increase in average latency in the evening peak hours.

It's hard to argue against someone with a deluded axe to grind without appearing to be grinding axes ourselves.

There's just a chance that some people will understand that the presence of PlusNet information about how their network is performing is a sign of belief in their system, whereas the absence of any information whatsoever about other ISPs suggests they have something to hide.

That step seems to be beyond the person we are currently dealing with, but one prospective customer at least has picked up on it.

It's not as if we are saying PlusNet couldn't do better. Any ISP could vastly overprovide capacity if they wished to go out of business, but I'm not aware of any that currently do so.

iOS7 release necessitated a short-term change to non-realtime prioritisation. So what? Did anyone suffer?

What happened on other ISPs? No information presented by the nay-sayer(s). Just non-stop denigration.

Hi guys, yes I am an idiot.. senior moment... i meant the local exchange has NOT been unbundled... i am misunderstanding my negatives... yep... I understand your confusion now... the exchange has not been unbundled

/facepalm

Right - in that case it is probably a Market 1 exchange. If you put your phone number into this checker it tells you, somewhere down in the right hand bottom area.

Market 1 exchanges are £7pm more expensive on PlusNet than the banner prices you see on their website . If you weren't aware of that, then you are now!

(A good job I asked about the "unbundled?)

Sky and talktalk fibre services are considered full llu as voice is unbundled

Thanks! That what I've been trying to says for ages.

Indeed, as long as the phone is unbundled then it must be 'Full LLU', whether Fibre or ADSL, as no one unbundles phone alone.

There's a nice paradox .

You mean of course, by the same ISP.

So a bundled package by said ISP is fully unbundled .

How will people know when ordering a fibre and line rental package whether it's unbundled or not?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

You mean of course, by the same ISP.

Of course, that was the context of this discussion. It also follows from the fact that it is only ISPs who unbundle phone.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

So a bundled package by said ISP is fully unbundled .

Now you are using 'bundled' in 2 different senses, out of context, or I can't scratch the surface of your sarcasm.

How do you know now when ordering a telephone and broadband package?

I guess 1st of all you need to know who are the Full LLU ISP. TT, Sky and C&W? + Zen coming?

Then if it is directly from TT or Sky then phone will be unbundled. If it is thro' a reseller on any of them it may or may not be unbundled and you will have to ask. "Does landline remain WLR?".

Example: Plusnet says that one needs a "BT based landline to get our broadband" (WLR) and that is for ADSL and FTTC.

Yet Zen say here http://www.zen.co.uk/home-office/broadband/fibre-opt... for their fibre and line rental package:

"How do I transfer my phone line to Zen?

Simply call our Sales team on 01706 900269 and we'll get the process started.

Will my number stay the same?

Yes, the transfer of your telephone line means that your number will stay exactly the same."

Which is not so clear?

That was the point of the joke!

No sarcasm intended.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

If it is thro' a reseller on any of them it may or may not be unbundled and you will have to ask. "Does landline remain WLR?".

I hope such an enquiry would result in an unambiguous answer

We are getting in a mess here, because the term "Full LLU" is being used. There is no such "official" term.

On ADSLx there is MPF, where the line and broadband are fully handled by the ISP and WLR is not used, and there is SMPF where the line is WLR.

Examples of the first are most Sky and TalkTalk connections. Examples of the second are all O2/Be connections. The Sky/TT type are what we usually call Full LLU, and the O2/Be ones Partial LLU.

That convenient layman's labelling fails on FTTC, where GEA is used for all the broadband. Trying to find a way to use "Full/Partial" LLU just isn't possible. Basically, on FTTC there is no such thing as LLU.

Specifically - GEA is Openreach's product designed to satisfy the Ofcom VULA (Virtual Unbundled Local Access) specification. Note the word "Virtual".

As such, FTTC as we currently have it is not "unbundled" by Sky and TalkTalk. It would only be unbundled if providers other than Openreach had DSLAM cabinets as well as Openreach. Like Digital Region? The relevant Openreach product is PIA (Physical Infrastructure Access).

Lets say somebody has Sky FTTC and they want to move to IDNET, IDNET say that to switch line rental from LLU there is a charge of £48 - would Sky FTTC count as a LLU provider in that example?

That depends whether Sky handle the phone line on their MSAN or use WLR. The answer may be different at different exchanges, depending on whether or not the copper exchange is also the GEA headend. I've no idea.

Sorry I still don't get it: if there's no "unbundling" as such then in laymen's terms could we just say something like Sky's FTTC network or TalkTalk's FTTC network? This might indicate that the voice service is no longer WLR...

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Basically, on FTTC there is no such thing as LLU.

There could be for the voice part. Going bach to what I was asking earlier, the old copper landline could end up on the ISP's kit and not feed into the BT PSTN.

We can still use the informal layman terms. For Fibre, it all boils down to how the voice element is handled::

• either ( WLR or not unbundled or 'not LLU'd' )
• or ( non-WLR or unbundled or 'LLU'd' )

Sky put the line into their own msan like i said earlier

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Sky put the line into their own msan like i said earlier

If they have 1 at the exchange, i.e. if they are ADSL LLU'd there, I think Roberto is trying to say.

No. I was trying to say that if the GEA link is at the same exchange as the customer's copper termination, I would expect the copper to go to Sky's MSAN, but if the GEA link is at a different exchange I don't know.

If the GEA link is at exchange A with Sky hardware but pstn goes to exchange B without Sky hardware, then that would be a line where you cannot order Sky Fibre.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If the GEA link is at exchange A with Sky hardware but pstn goes to exchange B without Sky hardware, then that would be a line where you cannot order Sky Fibre.

But with BT Retail or Plusnet you could because the line is WLR?

Correct

I think that answers all the questions. Thanks Andrew .

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

Silver traffic was squeezed, its there as plain as day to see. But another issue is the number of complaints on plusnet's forums and the people messaging me (who seemed too scared to speak out on here).

Are you referring to iOS7 day? What are you seeing from these other people? Get them to post here so we can help them out and work out if there is a problem.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

Then we have the mysterious peak time latency spikes that have no official explanation put to them.

Which spikes? We had the issues at the start of this year (broken bits of kit), quite a few thin red spikes in between March and August in the early mornings (we were upgrading and therefore rebooting gateways which were disconnecting and therefore causing a spike of packet loss), and recently large "volcanoes" (as they've been coined!) which turned out to be a BTW issue in Milton Keynes and was affecting all BTW customers.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

I also happen to have access to some plusnet lines as well now on my own exchange, so also have some first hand comparisons.

I have never claimed plusnet is X amount slower but you do seem very overly defensive of the isp, you are only a customer, but do act at times as if you need to be their PR man or something.

If you've got some good data/info for us, chuck it over. Always wanting to make sure we're selling a good product here.

In reply to a post by KellyD:

recently large "volcanoes" (as they've been coined!) which turned out to be a BTW issue in Milton Keynes and was affecting all BTW customers.

There's more about the "volcanoes" (good title!) including relevant graphics in this thread.