MacOS Ventura

Anyone going all Ventura tomorrow?

No way. Always wait for the x.1 version.

But I’ll probably try an install on another disk.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

No way. Always wait for the x.1 version.

But I’ll probably try an install on another disk.

Er, how can you try and instal on another disk, or can you install on an external drive?

Every MacOS so far can be installed to an external drive (that I know of anyway), but I'm with the wait, until at least a few days, and the other question is 'why' (for now, until it's proven to be stable for others).

1. You have 2 disks in your Mac, or

2. You use a USB-C external disk.

Another possibility, although not strictly “another disk”, is to create a new partition for the install.

Edited by TinyMongomery (Mon 24-Oct-22 07:15:24)

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

Another possibility, although not strictly “another disk”, is to create a new partition for the install.

Which on APFS (Apple File System) you can do totally on the fly without impacting anything else on the drive. You can create new “partitions” on an existing drive that share space with your existing “partitions”.

Which means you can:

- create a new partition
- install a new OS on it
- boot to the new OS to try it out
- boot to the old OS
- remove the new partition with the new OS
- upgrade your original partition to the new OS

One of the useful things the Mac can do that Windows can’t*. No doubt there are Linux setups that can do this too, but most Linux distros don’t come out of the box with this sort of flexibility ready to go.

* or maybe it can, with the right third party tools, it certainly isn’t something that people generally do with it

Windows Storage Spaces provides this ability. No third-party tools needed. Similarly, FreeBSD and Linux can do the same.

In reply to a post by SteveBushell999:

Every MacOS so far can be installed to an external drive (that I know of anyway), but I'm with the wait, until at least a few days, and the other question is 'why' (for now, until it's proven to be stable for others).

i have seen some videos of people installing a OS to an external drive, but I thought maybe they have done some tinkering around.
I did not ask why, I am in agreement with you to wait, while mac OS have fewer problems than Windows, new updates can still have problems.
I presume this update is only for their own silicon?
I said to a friend that she needs to put the old Trash can pro to bed and get something a bit more modern, while she has not updated it to the top version of Mac Os it goes to, it is getting long in the tooth.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

1. You have 2 disks in your Mac, or

2. You use a USB-C external disk.

Another possibility, although not strictly “another disk”, is to create a new partition for the install.

Most Macs it is not possible;e to install a second drive, if any these days.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

Another possibility, although not strictly “another disk”, is to create a new partition for the install.

Which on APFS (Apple File System) you can do totally on the fly without impacting anything else on the drive. You can create new “partitions” on an existing drive that share space with your existing “partitions”.

Which means you can:

- create a new partition
- install a new OS on it
- boot to the new OS to try it out
- boot to the old OS
- remove the new partition with the new OS
- upgrade your original partition to the new OS

One of the useful things the Mac can do that Windows can’t*. No doubt there are Linux setups that can do this too, but most Linux distros don’t come out of the box with this sort of flexibility ready to go.

* or maybe it can, with the right third party tools, it certainly isn’t something that people generally do with it

This is where APFS is far better than NTFS,

Ventura is supported on both Apple and Intel Macs. It is even supported on 2013+ Mac Pros. It's certainly supported on my newer Intel Mac mini.

So, it's worth a look just to see what it's like.

You can install far more than 2 drives on a Mac Pro.

It would be if not for Storage Spaces.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

Ventura is supported on both Apple and Intel Macs. It is even supported on 2013+ Mac Pros. It's certainly supported on my newer Intel Mac mini.

So, it's worth a look just to see what it's like.

I have just read that it will not work on the trash can, in fact, nothing under 2017. Not that it matter much to my friend, she is still two version under than what her machine can take, she hates the newer versions of Mac Os, her view is it makes her computer more like a mobile phone. I heard that somewhere else.

I expect she will get a Mac studio at some point.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

You can install far more than 2 drives on a Mac Pro.

the new one? I suppose you can, but who in their right mind will pay that amount of money for a computer?

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

It would be if not for Storage Spaces.

Never used it

You're right; the system requirements seem to have changed at some point. But it still supports my Mac mini, so I'll give it a whirl.

To be honest, I haven't noticed the OS becoming more like a mobile phone. It works better with them than older versions, but the functionality is completely different. I can't imagine using XCode on a phone (or even a tablet).

Agreed. Command line on MacOS just as useful as ever. Install brew and it’s awesome. Networking tools are exceptional. Leaves MS in the dark ages.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Agreed. Command line on MacOS just as useful as ever. Install brew and it’s awesome. Networking tools are exceptional. Leaves MS in the dark ages.

WSL fights back quite well.

I just bit the bullet and went for Ventura, one app failed (FileBot), but reinstalled that, and all now fine..... I will update if there are any glitches. This is on a 2018 Mac mini.

For interest, I have a number of other Macs from 2009 Mini's through 2011, 2012 Mini's and 2008 iMac, various air's and MBP's, all running Monterey (12.6) via OpenCore patcher - occasional minor HD3000 and 4000 Safari graphics issues, but in the main all good (just use Chrome to get round those minor issues) Pretty much everything else works fine, only minor fail is wakeup via Apple Watch with ancient WiFi cards. I await a Ventura version of OCLP, but suspect that may be a little while

Just downloaded it now and applying the update too...

Good luck !

Tagged to the end

Arstechnica review: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/10/macos-13-ven...

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

You're right; the system requirements seem to have changed at some point. But it still supports my Mac mini, so I'll give it a whirl.

To be honest, I haven't noticed the OS becoming more like a mobile phone. It works better with them than older versions, but the functionality is completely different. I can't imagine using XCode on a phone (or even a tablet).

i think it is because Mac OS started to integrate IOS stuff too much. buyt then windows have become more like a mobile os with flipping apps and stuff like that.
My friend is not sure if I will cope with Mac Os for any length of time as it is more limited than windows, but windows is going that way, so i may as well make a new start.

If you say so. I use iMac OS every day and don’t notice any intrusive resemblance to iOS. But if you do, and it bothers you, you’d be wasting your money to buy a Mac.

Go for a nice Linux or FreeBSD machine and enjoy a phone and tablet free experience. It’ll be cheaper too.

In reply to a post by SteveBushell999:

Good luck !

Cheers. Keep looking for breakages.... So far so good.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

If you say so. I use iMac OS every day and don’t notice any intrusive resemblance to iOS.

System Settings in Ventura now looks very iOS like indeed.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

...she hates the newer versions of Mac Os, her view is it makes her computer more like a mobile phone. I heard that somewhere else.

I expect she will get a Mac studio at some point.

Not sure how's she's going to reconcile those two facets then as a Mac Studio will now ship with Ventura (or Monterey if its a pre-existing stock unit). Perhaps she will love and hate it at the same time!

If she waits a month or two, then it's possible it will be fitted with an M2-based Max or Ultra processor. There are strong rumours circulating the Mini will also get an M2 heart transplant come November so that could be alternative if she doesn't need all those cores.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

If you say so. I use iMac OS every day and don’t notice any intrusive resemblance to iOS. But if you do, and it bothers you, you’d be wasting your money to buy a Mac.

Go for a nice Linux or FreeBSD machine and enjoy a phone and tablet free experience. It’ll be cheaper too.

Hang on, hang on It is not me, that is my friend saying it. She has used apple machines for years, she has an old Mac G3, the one with the CRT built in, shows how long she has been using Macs.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by SteveBushell999:

Good luck !

Cheers. Keep looking for breakages.... So far so good.

How are you getting on with Stage Manager? I saw a video of someone using it, seems a bit of a fraff, I suppose it is something you get used to.

I realise that it's hearsay, but as you think that opinion here is worth posting here I take it that it is one you give credence to. I'm just saying that, if so, a Mac is possibly not for you. Horses for courses.

(I use Macs, Windows machines, and various Linux setups - they each have their strengths and weaknesses. There's no one computer that is perfect for everyone. If I could only have one I'd probably go for Linux because of the wealth of software available and the open nature of the OS. My main problem with Mac OS, and Windows, is that they are getting more closed as years go by. I realize that it's a security thing, but I prefer to be able to choose.)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Not sure how's she's going to reconcile those two facets then as a Mac Studio will now ship with Ventura (or Monterey if its a pre-existing stock unit). Perhaps she will love and hate it at the same time!

I said that, her answer was I will have to get used it. She realises that the trashcan is now out of date, and she has done well with it to be honest, but she wants something with a bit more power, but uses less energy
she will keep the monitor as that cost her a lot of money, not Apple, but a Benq. the one thing she was worried about is drivers for her Graphics pad, but Wacom seems to have updated them.

If she waits a month or two, then it's possible it will be fitted with an M2-based Max or Ultra processor. There are strong rumours circulating the Mini will also get an M2 heart transplant come November so that could be alternative if she doesn't need all those cores.

She is not rushing, just like me really, I am waiting to see what happens with the mini. I doubt she will bother until after Christmas anyway, she has a couple of projects on the go and changing computers may not be the best idea at the moment.
Me, if Apple comes out with a more powerful Mac mini and the price is not stupid, then I may get it this year, I have the money saved to do it

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I suppose it is something you get used to.

Or not. The standard window management is still there, along with their other various past half hearted attempts to "solve" the windowing problem.

I'll be sticking with BetterSnapTool, it makes more sense to me than any of Apple's attempts at window management.

I think windows management is certainly something that Microsoft have better solutions for than Apple. My initial reaction to Stage Manager is that is is a not very useful gimmick - especially on an iPad.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

Windows Storage Spaces provides this ability. No third-party tools needed.

Can it ? Microsoft's description of it sounds like something very different and RAID-like:

"Storage Spaces helps protect your data from drive failures and extend storage over time as you add drives to your PC. You can use Storage Spaces to group two or more drives together in a storage pool and then use capacity from that pool to create virtual drives called storage spaces. These storage spaces typically store two copies of your data so if one of your drives fails, you still have an intact copy of your data. If you run low on capacity, just add more drives to the storage pool."

Can it, from a standard install of Windows:

- add a new "partition", on the same drive as the existing OS
- install a new OS to that partition
- boot from either OS install

?

On the Mac doing this is two steps:

- create new APFS volume in Disk Utility, takes 30 seconds
- run the installer for the new OS

I'm off to investigate Storage Spaces some more 😉

Yeah, I've just double checked on my Windows 11 machine. Storage Spaces doesn't do what we're talking about here.

Yeah, my setup is basically mimicking Window's approach to window management. I've got keystrokes for:

"put the window on the left half of the current screen"
"put it on the right half"
"move it to fullscreen on the next screen"
"put it fullscreen (but not the awful Mac FullScreen thing)"
"move the current window to the centre the screen, but leave the size alone"

And also an option that makes double clicking the title bar actually fill the screen rather than the default weird Mac behaviour.

For me this sort of window management is the only* thing Windows does better for day to day stuff. Thankfully it is easily fixed on the Mac with a wide choice of third party apps that give you Window like management.

* and games, and running VS.Net and related Microsfoft dev stuff. Which is why I have a PC next to my Mac

Storage Spaces is more akin to ZFS than simple RAID (although they also provide very efficient combining of multiple physical disks). Both allow you to over provision storage (define drives whose total size adds up to more than the available disk space).

In theory you can boot from a Storage Spaces drive (some surface machines do that), but in practice it depends upon your computer; it's something the UEFI has to know about.

Edited by TinyMongomery (Wed 26-Oct-22 11:39:50)

Understood, but it also doesn't address the use case that we were talking about here.

It is probably one area were Windows is ahead of the Mac. Apple seem very uninterested in the software RAID functionality that is hidden away in the OS and it is very vanilla RAID 0/1/5.

Which make sense I guess, given they only have a single model that can support multiple internal drives.

I'll bet there are about as many end users using Windows Storage Spaces as there are Mac users using Apple's software RAID 😉

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

Understood, but it also doesn't address the use case that we were talking about here.

If your computer can boot from a Storage Spaces drive (see the edit to my previous post) then it does address that case; you just create a new volume (as long as you haven't used up all the space on your drive - I mean really used rather than allocated) - thin provisioning. Basically, exactly the same as on a Mac or a ZFS equipped machine.

When I fire up Storage Spaces it say there are no drives available, it doesn’t give me any options to do anything with my boot drive.

Unless you have any drives that don’t have anything on them you can’t set up Storage Spaces. It takes over the physical drives you allocate to it completely.

Ok, it really isn't an equivalent for what you can do on the Mac, with a standard install then, which is fine.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

Or not. The standard window management is still there, along with their other various past half hearted attempts to "solve" the windowing problem.

I'll be sticking with BetterSnapTool, it makes more sense to me than any of Apple's attempts at window management.

Looking at the videos, it does seem strange, not sure if it is something I would use either. It will be hard enough getting used to having a menu system that changes at the top of the screen depending on what you are doing

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

Can it ? Microsoft's description of it sounds like something very different and RAID-like:

"Storage Spaces helps protect your data from drive failures and extend storage over time as you add drives to your PC. You can use Storage Spaces to group two or more drives together in a storage pool and then use capacity from that pool to create virtual drives called storage spaces. These storage spaces typically store two copies of your data so if one of your drives fails, you still have an intact copy of your data. If you run low on capacity, just add more drives to the storage pool."

Can it, from a standard install of Windows:

- add a new "partition", on the same drive as the existing OS
- install a new OS to that partition
- boot from either OS install

?

On the Mac doing this is two steps:

- create new APFS volume in Disk Utility, takes 30 seconds
- run the installer for the new OS

I'm off to investigate Storage Spaces some more 😉

Never used it, but I have read about and I came to that conclusin that it is a raid type thing, not sure what advantage it would have over raid since most motherboards these days offer raid.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Never used it, but I have read about and I came to that conclusin that it is a raid type thing, not sure what advantage it would have over raid since most motherboards these days offer raid.

In that case, I'm afraid that you haven't read enough, or tried it. Storage Spaces is much more than just software RAID - as I said before it is more akin to ZFS. Some features additional to RAID are data compression, data deduplication, thin provisioning of volumes, and different levels of data redundancy (approximately, RAID level) in the same storage pool. Thin provisioning is probably the most important aspect in this context, allowing flexible use of available storage space.

TBH, most people are a little vague about what RAID is, let alone the newer enhancements like ZFS, Btrfs, APFS, and Storage Spaces. Synology provide similar facilities on their NASs with SHR.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

Understood, but it also doesn't address the use case that we were talking about here.

It is probably one area were Windows is ahead of the Mac. Apple seem very uninterested in the software RAID functionality that is hidden away in the OS and it is very vanilla RAID 0/1/5.

Which make sense I guess, given they only have a single model that can support multiple internal drives.

I'll bet there are about as many end users using Windows Storage Spaces as there are Mac users using Apple's software RAID 😉

BIB, this is the one thing that niggles me about a Mac. I have been building and using PC machines since 1997, I have updated these machines, added extra and stuff like even my Amiga I could change the hard drive and memory.

If i go for a Mac mini, I have to realise that it is what it is and it can't be updated, this is why I am waiting for the new model, something faster than what is there now and maybe get something with 16GB or more ram, storage space is not a huge problem, plenty of external docks that a drive can be put in and sit under the computer, plus i have the Nas.

The only thing I have updated on my computer in the last couple of years is storage, I put in a 960GB SSD, but only because it was a good price when i was getting stuff for my brother
I will have to do some more research and see how the M1 and M2 chip compare with AMD offerings and make sure the software I am going to use work with the Apple Silicon directly, last time I looked some of it did not.
I was going to do it while off work this week, but I have not been feeling great for the last few days, so I have not really felt like doing so.,
I did think about a iMac, an all-in-one system, would be kind of nice, but I have a good monitor and since i will still be keeping the machine i have, it is not going to add any less stuff to the room.

but i will certainly have a look at some more videos on the new Mac Os.

Don’t do it Adrian. Stick to Windows.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I will have to do some more research and see how the M1 and M2 chip compare with AMD offerings and make sure the software I am going to use work with the Apple Silicon directly, last time I looked some of it did not.

I wouldn't worry too much about that. Unless you have a pretty high end desktop x86 processor at the moment, you'll likely find the M1/2 run your x86 code a lot faster than you'd imagine. It really is close to native speed (and for the right app can actually be faster than it would be on the fastest Intel Macs).

I still have a few Intel apps, but I couldn't tell you which ones were not native, without looking at Activity Monitor.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Don’t do it Adrian. Stick to Windows.

LOL, It will be a nice change to be honest, I hope. There is a Mac style OS available, that I installed, to see if I can get used to the U.I, it is Linux, but then Mac Os is BSD. I can't remember what distro it was, but it was very much like the Mac desktop, I don't mean it just had a Dock either.

Windows is going a way I don't really want it to, the forced Ms account on Windows 11 and yes I know uses Apple ID, but it is not forced, even telemetry is not forced on Macs.
I know Mac Os is a bit of a closed shop, But then windows is becoming like that and have been since Windows 8 to be honest.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

I wouldn't worry too much about that. Unless you have a pretty high end desktop x86 processor at the moment, you'll likely find the M1/2 run your x86 code a lot faster than you'd imagine. It really is close to native speed (and for the right app can actually be faster than it would be on the fastest Intel Macs).

I still have a few Intel apps, but I couldn't tell you which ones were not native, without looking at Activity Monitor.

I have a R7 1700, so certainly not the fastest by any means these days, I was not the fastest when I first got.

thanks./

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

LOL, It will be a nice change to be honest, I hope. There is a Mac style OS available, that I installed, to see if I can get used to the U.I, it is Linux, but then Mac Os is BSD.

(was originally based on BSD, but heavily modified in the last 18 years)

Assuming there are Intel Mac versions of the software Adrian wants to run.

It’s pretty much mandatory to have an Apple account if you want to install software from the App Store. For example, you wouldn’t be able to use XCode without an account.

As with Windows (where a Microsoft account is still not mandatory), it is becoming more difficult, and more limited, to use a computer without an online account.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

It’s pretty much mandatory to have an Apple account if you want to install software from the App Store. For example, you wouldn’t be able to use XCode without an account.

As with Windows (where a Microsoft account is still not mandatory), it is becoming more difficult, and more limited, to use a computer without an online account.

Xcode is for developers, is it not? I am not a developer. My many macs owning friend don't have an account on her Mac book book pro or her iMac, but she does have one on the mac pro ( trashcan), something to do with final cut.
Her macbook pro and Imac is normally used for browsing and office stuff, so she doesn't seem to need an Apple Id for them.

It is sad that it is going that way that we need an account to use our computer, so far I have not needed one to use Windows, you say it is more difficult and more limited, but I have not found any limitation at all on using my windows based machine without an account. I never needed one for Windows 7, Xpo, 98, and 95, so why do I need one now? i did have one for Windows 8 for a while until I found a way to bypass it, that was the only time I had a Hotmail account.

Even so, Apple don't force it on people, like MS is doing with Windows 11 where you have to through hoops to avoid having an MS account, no telemetry either.
As I have said a few times, if the software was available for Linux and it was not such a pain I would certainly move to Linux.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

(was originally based on BSD, but heavily modified in the last 18 years)

Like a lot of operating system modified, but under the skin, Mac OS is still BSD, like windows 11 is still NT.

But, then, the networking in Windows is based on BSD.

Darwin was actually based on the Mach kernel, not the BSD one. Most users will never see the parts of Mac OS with a BSD heritage.

No. Certain utilities are based on BSD, as is the networking - like all operating systems - but that’s about it.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

But, then, the networking in Windows is based on BSD.

Darwin was actually based on the Mach kernel, not the BSD one. Most users will never see the parts of Mac OS with a BSD heritage.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

No. Certain utilities are based on BSD, as is the networking - like all operating systems - but that’s about it.

I never knew windows Networking was based on BSD,

thanks for the info

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I never knew windows Networking was based on BSD,

My understanding is the NT 3.1/3.5/3.51/4/win2000/XP stack was built on BSD design. I also read that with Win7 and later the TCP/IP stack was rewritten in house by MS to perform faster.

The BSD design wasn't that great, susceptable to "ping of doom" and other exploits that would blue screen a box over the wire. (As OS X/macOS and plenty of Unixes also would crash, including SunOS/Solaris, HP/UX, and others). Of course BSD and others worked on theirs in the early 2000s as well, so the only constant is change.

Most of my Unix/Linux colleagues dislike macOS as the built in userland (command line) tools from Apple are quite old. They tend to use package managers such as brew to install non-apple open source (GNU) type utililties, or on Intel Mac's run a Linux VM. (harder on M1/M2 as the hypervisor support is limited, and less compatible distributions, but this is improving slowly).

We’ve gone way off topic…but it’s my thread so whatever 🤣

Here is some potted history of the windows networking stack:
https://tangentsoft.net/wskfaq/articles/history.html

If you want to hear the real forefathers of PC networking they are here at the history section of the Ethernet Alliance:
https://ethernetalliance.org/voices-of-ethernet/

Now back to 2022 and MacOS maybe 🤔 🤣?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Now back to 2022 and MacOS maybe 🤔 🤣?

But but.... Bob Metcalfe!

In reply to a post by jchamier:

My understanding is the NT 3.1/3.5/3.51/4/win2000/XP stack was built on BSD design. I also read that with Win7 and later the TCP/IP stack was rewritten in house by MS to perform faster.

Yes. Next Generation TCP/IP stack

The BSD design wasn't that great, susceptable to "ping of doom" and other exploits that would blue screen a box over the wire. (As OS X/macOS and plenty of Unixes also would crash, including SunOS/Solaris, HP/UX, and others). Of course BSD and others worked on theirs in the early 2000s as well, so the only constant is change.

The musings of Terry Lambert about his time at Apple and work done under the cover of MacOS make for interesting and amusing reading

Most of my Unix/Linux colleagues dislike macOS as the built in userland (command line) tools from Apple are quite old. They tend to use package managers such as brew to install non-apple open source (GNU) type utililties, or on Intel Mac's run a Linux VM. (harder on M1/M2 as the hypervisor support is limited, and less compatible distributions, but this is improving slowly).

Well yeah brew is excellent.

Apple Silicon runs Windows 11 (for ARM), Ubuntu 22.04 desktop (had to graft that one together) and server really well under virtualisation. Just give the box enough memory but grunt isn’t really a question. You wouldn’t know it was virtualised.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Now back to 2022 and MacOS maybe 🤔 🤣?

But but.... Bob Metcalfe!

Hehe. 😎 They’re all legends (for us long in the tooth EE/computing/networking nerds anyway).

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Apple Silicon runs Windows 11 (for ARM), Ubuntu 22.04 desktop (had to graft that one together) and server really well under virtualisation. Just give the box enough memory but grunt isn’t really a question. You wouldn’t know it was virtualised.

The problems we have are commercial, MS won't actually licence ARM windows, but they seem to turn a blind eye to home users. So as an insanely large corporate (which makes money from MS consulting) our lawyers won't let us go near it. Its causing upset in our Apple fans as many ran Windows VMs for monthly/weekly use, and now they need two laptops. We blame Legal

Yeah I'm my own legal team. So my in-house general counsel had pause for thought, then gave me the nod. 🙈😂

All TCP/IP networking nowadays is built on the Berkley Socket interface, which originated in BSD 4.2. Different vendors will implement it in different ways, but they all descend from that original idea.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

All TCP/IP networking nowadays is built on the Berkley Socket interface, which originated in BSD 4.2. Different vendors will implement it in different ways, but they all descend from that original idea.

An API is quite different to an implementation, as I'm sure you're well aware.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Yeah I'm my own legal team. So my in-house general counsel had pause for thought, then gave me the nod. 🙈😂

PC Pro magazine had a good writeup on using Parallels to do this, and I see VMWare has their beta version out that does the same thing.

Of course they are different. The API is the important thing; the implementation doesn't matter. Programmers don't need to know how APIs are implemented.

That's the principle of my legal defence your Justice.

Secondly MS have allowed a purchased licence key to be applied without let or hindrance to said W11 for ARM instance your Justice.

May I humbly direct your Honourable Justice to the legal teams at Bellevue, Cupertino and Redmond for comment

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

How are you getting on with Stage Manager? I saw a video of someone using it, seems a bit of a fraff, I suppose it is something you get used to.

Had it switched on for a day or so. Now switched it off again. Might be better on a laptop screen, but I'm mostly using an external 40" monitor when I'm at my desk, so I find arranging / resizing my windows manually works fine. If I want a clean screen or flip between VMs or RDP sessions then I just hotkey between spaces.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

Of course they are different. The API is the important thing; the implementation doesn't matter. Programmers don't need to know how APIs are implemented.

If anyone is interested in the workings of Mac OS, I can recommend Mac OS X Internals by Amit Singh. It’s not a light read, but goes into great detail. In similar veinn, The Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD Operating System will provide many hours of fun(?) reading.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I have a R7 1700, so certainly not the fastest by any means these days, I was not the fastest when I first got.

Even the base M1 is over twice the speed in single core And the M1 Pro will be over twice the speed in multi core.

Any Intel stuff you end up running is likely to run faster on any Apple Silicon machine than it does on your current desktop (unless you have a recent beefy GPU).

To bring the thread back on topic... I ventured and on an M2 Mac Air, at least... no problems...

A

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

Any Intel stuff you end up running is likely to run faster on any Apple Silicon machine than it does on your current desktop (unless you have a recent beefy GPU).

My 12th Gen i7 desktop is slightly under the M1 benchmark, and the M2 races ahead. My iPad is faster than my desktop PC

In reply to a post by nonymouse:

To bring the thread back on topic... I ventured and on an M2 Mac Air, at least... no problems...

Yes. So far it’s been pretty stable and shown good compatibility for an x.0 release for me. Running on Apple Silicon now so can’t say for Intel-based hardware.

OpenCore sounds like it’s getting closer to Ventura support for officially Apple-unsupported hardware too.

Ventura is stable (for me) so far with Intel, and I agree that OpenCore definitely 'getting there' - indeed, with release of 0.5.1 a couple of days ago, I have Ventura running on a 2012 MacBook Air 2012 (i7 Ivy Bridge) - So far, so good, will try on my 2014 Haswell Air later. Currently supported models here ... As regards the mess with Stage Manager.... I will stick with the old ways for now!

Update, 0.5.1 and Ventura, it all works on my 2014 Air just fine (so far).....

Edited by SteveBushell999 (Sun 30-Oct-22 12:55:03)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Anyone going all Ventura tomorrow?

Well its been the most uneventful 2 weeks with Ventura.

I guess that makes it a pretty decent first stab for Apple in 13.x land 🙈😂

Edited by Pheasant (Fri 04-Nov-22 19:31:54)

Likewise. And Continuity Camera on a mini is well handy.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Had it switched on for a day or so. Now switched it off again. Might be better on a laptop screen, but I'm mostly using an external 40" monitor when I'm at my desk, so I find arranging / resizing my windows manually works fine. If I want a clean screen or flip between VMs or RDP sessions then I just hotkey between spaces.

i don't think it is something I would use either to be honest., Apple is not bringing out any more Macs this year by all accounts, so I will not be getting one this year, but on the bright side, it allows me to stick more money into the computer account, i have £1200 in there at the moment, the more I stick in there, the less I have to get out of my other savings.
I had a thought about the Mac studio, but at nearly 2 grand for the basic model, it is a fair bit of money, more than i have ever spent on a computer.

i was reading that there may be a way to stick Ventura onto a trash can Mac, but my friend have said that the machine have had a good run and maybe it is time to retire it for something a bit faster and less power hungry. That Xeon CPU is pretty power hungry, and so are the two graphics cards. She is going to wait till next year and see what Apple brings to the imac.

We will see what happens next year.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

My understanding is the NT 3.1/3.5/3.51/4/win2000/XP stack was built on BSD design. I also read that with Win7 and later the TCP/IP stack was rewritten in house by MS to perform faster.

The BSD design wasn't that great, susceptable to "ping of doom" and other exploits that would blue screen a box over the wire. (As OS X/macOS and plenty of Unixes also would crash, including SunOS/Solaris, HP/UX, and others). Of course BSD and others worked on theirs in the early 2000s as well, so the only constant is change.

Most of my Unix/Linux colleagues dislike macOS as the built in userland (command line) tools from Apple are quite old. They tend to use package managers such as brew to install non-apple open source (GNU) type utililties, or on Intel Mac's run a Linux VM. (harder on M1/M2 as the hypervisor support is limited, and less compatible distributions, but this is improving slowly).

a mate uses Linux, Most of the computers he has run Linux and most just command line, the only one I think that has a GUI on is the one his wife uses. He has one Windows based machine that he had to use when he ran his company? He says GUI are for WIMPS. Yes, it was meant to be funny, since WIMPS, means Windows, icons, mouse and pointer.

I have not used much in the way of command lines for a while, I was going to do it on Linux, but to be honest at my time of life I just want something that works which is why I am looking at MACs.

Saying that, i am thinking of getting an old Del wyse machine and going to have a muck around with Home Assistant , raspberry pis are expensive these days and not easy to get

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

a mate uses Linux, Most of the computers he has run Linux and most just command line, the only one I think that has a GUI on is the one his wife uses. He has one Windows based machine that he had to use when he ran his company? He says GUI are for WIMPS. Yes, it was meant to be funny, since WIMPS, means Windows, icons, mouse and pointer.

It should be WIMPs lowercase S if you're trying to be funny, given the acronym goes back to the Xerox PARC research centre and the invention of windowing system with mouse.

Most of my teams are developing software that runs on cloud servers, which are linux. So the developers are split 50/50 between macOS fans (with Brew) or Windows fans (with WSL) and the one or two whom actually force Fedora onto a laptop and then have to use web Word, Outlook, Teams etc in Chrome

I have not used much in the way of command lines for a while, I was going to do it on Linux, but to be honest at my time of life I just want something that works which is why I am looking at MACs.

The world is going command line for automation and reliability. Almost all enterprise software from any vendor (Oracle, Microsoft etc) is driven and managed from command line. Modern enterprise software GUIs actually show you the command line they are going to run after you complete a task before it is actioned.

GUIs are great for individual users / home users whom need the likes of Word, VSCode, or Apple XCode and diagramming etc.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

No way. Always wait for the x.1 version.

But I’ll probably try an install on another disk.

13.0.1 out…so if you’ve been hanging out for the point release, it’s your time to shine

That’s just a minor update, a couple of security fixes. No, it has to be 13.1.

I did try 13.0 on an external SSD but wasn’t overly impressed.

Your bar is very high sir. 13 has been great here. Not sure 13.1 will bring a lot (or even a smidge?) more stuff to the table to be fair. But each to their own.

I too always wait for the x.1 release. It tends to be only security releases and really critical stuff that makes it into x.0.1 releases. All the "we didn't quite have time to fix this middle level niggling bug before release" end up in x.1

It’s not a question of more stuff, it’s getting things right.

For example, on 13.0 I experienced random screen zooms. Probably something to do with the Magic Mouse, but I’ve never experienced it on previous versions. Unless there are significant advantages to a new version, or I am sure it is rock steady, I see no point in risking my main installation.

They usually fix any serious bugs by the x.1 version.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

No way. Always wait for the x.1 version.

But I’ll probably try an install on another disk.

13.1 is out now.

Ooooh. If feels like Donald Trump had a part to play with the default wallpaper...😂

My eyes, my eyes! 😎