40/20 FTTC How?

HI,

Sorry if this has been covered but i couldn't find it anywhere.
I've just noticed that plusnets upto 38mb/s service shows an upload rate of 19mb/s not the usual 9.5mbs with other providers.

Is that accurate, I thought the openreach product was either 80/20 or 40/20?
I'm on a market 1 exchange.

Thanks

Edited by deleted (Wed 25-Jun-14 12:28:31)

They probably limit the speed to 40 their (ISP/Plusnet) side, independent of Openreach. So the product is 80/20 but has been limited by Plusnet to run as a 40/20 service.

Edited by deleted (Wed 25-Jun-14 12:39:34)

Why would they do that though, it would increase their costs provisioning the higher rate?

We queried it and that was what we are assured they are doing, which makes it pretty cheap when TalkTalk charge £13.50 for 40/2 product

Once I see a speed test with high upload I'll be less sceptical

Not sure. I note the two packages (40/20 Fibre and 80/20 Fibre Extra) are both unlimited. On the previous packages (as I recall), only the higher spec package was unlimited, the other was limited to a set quota per month (which I believe was a 40/10 service).

I guess they have their reasons and have done appropriate market research to see that an unlimited fibre package, strategically placed to offer double the upload for the same download is a good move. In actual fact, it might be quite a good option for most people. I am on 60/20 but in reality, I do not actually see any real benefits from running at such a speed for download. 40/10 would do me, but having 40/20 would be even better if I was not fussed about download but wanted twice the upload.

Also, do remember that (I think) the 80/20 product has slightly higher priority on the Openreach network than the 40/10 one. Maybe provisioning 80/20 to all customers and just managing the speed their side is the easiest option for them.

I'm sure someone from Plusnet will be able to clarify.

Edited by deleted (Wed 25-Jun-14 13:09:59)

too many people think broadband costs are only what wholesale charge for the port.

there is 2 obvious reasons.

1 - burst speed costs money, it increases peak time demand so as such increases backhaul costs. this is something a lot of people on this forum have never understood.
2 - even if all operational costs were equal, a retail service isnt about mirroring costs, its about maximising profits so the retailer can charge the customer more as they getting more for their money, its as simple as that, a retail price doesnt have to bear any relation to wholesale cost. the main driver of pricing is actually supply and demand. This is shown e.g. on line rental where wholesale costs are lowering but retail are increasing.

To me it makes more sense plusnet would provisioion 40/10, and its a shame they dont because a 40/10 service e.g. is a way to get unlimited and force a misbehaving line to fast path, so lets say a line syncs at 58/12 but interleaved, the customer could change the speed to a capped 40/10 and get fast path back for better performance. That wont work if the underlying provision is still at 80/20.

Edited by Chrysalis (Wed 25-Jun-14 15:45:27)

I thought that a 40/10 service still syncs up to a maximum of 80/20, but is strictly rate limited to 40/10 by Openreach equipment. Or is that not the case? If that's not the case, then there are no benefits of going for the 40/10 service to improve noise margin, as you suggest.

Edited by deleted (Wed 25-Jun-14 15:54:56)

The GEA-FTTC product does have a max sync of 40/10 so opting for that can give better margin/stability for some rather than pushing the line to the max and just getting say 44/11 connection speeds

Thanks for clarifying Andrew.

I find it rather strange too. As for unlimited fibre 80/20 was £22.49 but 40/20 was £17.49 so I think Plusnet are no longer using BT 40/10. Instead they using 80/20 and limit the cap for 40Mbps at £17.49.

I can see on BT site, it only offfer two products 40/10 or 80/20. So, I am not sure how plusnet can do this 40/20 for fiver cheaper?

Edited by adslmax (Wed 25-Jun-14 18:58:34)

Phoned to enquire and asked about the increased upload, rep said other ISP's were capping the upload which plusnet didn't do?

I then asked about upgrades should i decide I wanted the full 80. No charge to upgrade just the revised +£5 monthly fee. He said there was no setup fee for that because plusnet would just remove the cap they set.

Kind of contradicted the first answer about upload, but hey. I'll give it a try and submit a speedtest once I'm live next week.

In reply to a post by armistice:

Phoned to enquire and asked about the increased upload, rep said other ISP's were capping the upload which plusnet didn't do?

This suggests to me that Plusnet place all FTTC orders to Openreach as 80/20 and then have been limiting to 40/10 their side to provide a 40/10 service. If that's the case, then the rep doesn't appear to entirely know the full picture regarding other ISPs capping upload as that may not be what other ISPs do. Other ISPs can/may order a true 40/10 FTTC product with Openreach, thus no limiting their side is required.

Edited by deleted (Thu 26-Jun-14 14:38:30)

no it just means a sales rep didnt explain it right.

basically the old 40/10 service and other isps who sell 40/10 order 40./10 from openreach which is sync speed capped, not sure why you struggling to accept this.

Plusnet even put some 80/20 customers on 40/10 when the speed estimate is around 40 or below (without telling them).

In reply to a post by adslmax:

I find it rather strange too. As for unlimited fibre 80/20 was £22.49 but 40/20 was £17.49 so I think Plusnet are no longer using BT 40/10. Instead they using 80/20 and limit the cap for 40Mbps at £17.49.

I can see on BT site, it only offfer two products 40/10 or 80/20. So, I am not sure how plusnet can do this 40/20 for fiver cheaper?

I've been considering the PN 40/20 unlimited product (low cost area - broadband only) but the 18 month contract and £50 activation fee rather puts me off the idea. Also I would much prefer a self install with an ISP supplied modem (not an all-in-one modem/router) which doesn't seem possible at the moment?

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

basically the old 40/10 service and other isps who sell 40/10 order 40./10 from openreach which is sync speed capped, not sure why you struggling to accept this.

Yes, but the crucial point is where the capping is taking place. 40/10 ordered as such with Openreach is capped at Openreach to 40/10 (independent of the ISP). 80/20 ordered as such with Openreach but provided to the customer as 40/10 is capped at the ISP, not Openreach.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

too many people think broadband costs are only what wholesale charge for the port.

there is 2 obvious reasons.

1 - burst speed costs money, it increases peak time demand so as such increases backhaul costs. this is something a lot of people on this forum have never understood.

Hmm. Netflix increases peak time demand, burst speed not so much across a wide cohort. Where there are relatively small numbers of people in the cohort it can certainly make a lot of difference, however across a wide customer base the effects of increasing data rate aren't as great as many would think.

Obviously going from sub-1.5Mb to 70Mb as I did is a big behaviour changer, however I have settled at a peak usage way below the 50-fold increase in burst speed. The main difference with what I'm doing isn't download volume, it's jumping from SD to HD video. I imagine this would go for most on such low speeds previously, however those who were already able to watch in HD aren't going to have a massive behaviour shift.

BT Wholesale have statistics for this. The main driver for bandwidth consumption isn't the headline speeds, it's Netflix. People who do the same things they did before use more bandwidth for less time and it averages out.

The main instances where increasing headline speed really increases usage are on upstream more than downstream. People can up their P2P rate limit.

Netflix usage caught Sky, VM and others completely off guard. The congestion on the BT Wholesale, Sky and VM networks is directly attributable to increased usage of high quality streaming video. Whether a customer has 330Mb FTTP, 152Mb cable, or 38Mb FTTC they will still pull Netflix in Ultra HD. Where those speeds make a difference is downloads, and across a cohort as downloads finish more quickly on the higher speeds the actual overall peak usage per customer doesn't increase much.

Do the maths on these products, you'll see the proportion of the costs allocated to bandwidth versus the port costs is pretty minimal. An 80/20 FTTC service is £9.95 a month, not including VAT which obviously puts it up to £11.94 before it's left the exchange.

Then you have the costs of transport on the BT Wholesale network, the cost of the MSIL between BT Wholesale and Plusnet, then all Plusnet's network, admin, etc, etc costs.

The actual proportion of the pricing allocated to handling the 'burst speed' there is tiny.

Edited by deleted (Thu 26-Jun-14 16:13:12)

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

Netflix usage caught Sky, VM and others completely off guard. The congestion on the BT Wholesale, Sky and VM networks is directly attributable to increased usage of high quality streaming video.

iPlayer etc. 720p 2500Kbps VBR might be the norm though - what's the bit rate on that "high quality streaming video"?

I never said it was a proportional increase, but regardless it does increase the peak time demand, whether its 2% 10% 30% or whatever it will increase it. I doubt its free to provide higher burst speed.

Glad you did acknowledge tho it does also tend to increase usage as well. I do agree with you as speed gets ever higher the usage increase will be less of a jump.

The same isps you listed wre also caught off guard in the past when increasing speeds as they had some misguided belief that when you increase speeds people wont use that speed Adsl max introduction had issues when it started a variety of isp's were caught out, VM have been caught out multiple times when they increased their speeds.

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 27-Jun-14 00:58:56)

In reply to a post by mixt:

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

basically the old 40/10 service and other isps who sell 40/10 order 40./10 from openreach which is sync speed capped, not sure why you struggling to accept this.

Yes, but the crucial point is where the capping is taking place. 40/10 ordered as such with Openreach is capped at Openreach to 40/10 (independent of the ISP). 80/20 ordered as such with Openreach but provided to the customer as 40/10 is capped at the ISP, not Openreach.

I have never heard of an isp supplying 40/10 on the 80/20 openreach service. that makes no sense. It increases wholesale cost, and adds risk of line instability.

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 27-Jun-14 00:50:04)

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

I have never heard of an isp supplying 40/10 on the 80/20 openreach service. that makes no sense. It increases wholesale cost, and adds risk of line instability.

Well exactly, so why are Plusnet offering 40/20 then? That has to be provisioned on a 80/20 product. The only difference I can see is that the 40/20 service has higher traffic priority within Openreach (as it's really a 80/20 product) compared to 40/10.

And yes, you're right about line stability too. Plusnet are effectively no longer giving the customer a choice of the real FTTC product that will be provisioned on their line; seems like they are just jumping in and provisioning 80/20 regardless, for any of their FTTC products.

Openreach only have three FTTC products. 40/2, 40/10, 80/20.

Therefore Plusnet are download speed capping the 80/20.

plusnet are offering 40/20 because they feel it will make them money.

thats very different to you going on about isps buying 80/20 of openreach to sell 40/10

plusnet arent selling 40/10 they selling 40/20

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 27-Jun-14 06:03:22)

he was asking me about 40/10 not 40/20 in the post I replied to.

I feel like I am been ganged up on here.

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 27-Jun-14 06:04:06)

Chris, I think it's a no brainier to see that this will make them money. They are taking a product which can do up to 80Mbps down and capping it to 40, also making it unlimited in the process.

Also, per this thread, http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/plusnet/t/4337950-t... , it means they can do a product switch and contract the customer into another 18 month contract, even though this switch required no product change with Openreach, which would contract PlusNet into another 12 month contract with Openreach.

I get your point about 80/20 limiting to 40/10, and why most ISPs wouldn't do this. But it is still possible to do, which was the point I was trying to make.

From 1st July pressure for that extra 18 month contract to not be there increases a lot as migrations will be just 1 month contract on FTTC

Yep! It's exactly what happened with Iplayer: http://community.plus.net/blog/2008/02/08/iplayer-us... just this time it's turning people who mostly browsed the web and consumed very little peak time traffic into people who solidly stream a 6Mbps+ HD stream at peak.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

Netflix usage caught Sky, VM and others completely off guard. The congestion on the BT Wholesale, Sky and VM networks is directly attributable to increased usage of high quality streaming video.

iPlayer etc. 720p 2500Kbps VBR might be the norm though - what's the bit rate on that "high quality streaming video"?

Netflix recommend 5Mbps for their HD streams. More for the Super HD.

Doesn't sound like much but enough people going from a bit of intermittent browsing and downloading to sustaining 5Mbps or the 2.5Mbps streams from iPlayer makes a dent in networks built around 500kbps peak usage.

In reply to a post by mixt:

Chris, I think it's a no brainier to see that this will make them money. They are taking a product which can do up to 80Mbps down and capping it to 40, also making it unlimited in the process.

I am totally confused here. They are taking a product which they are paying £16/month + VAT for and capping it to the same downstream performance as one they'd be paying £14/month + VAT for then apparently charging £16.49/month including VAT for broadband only and £14.99/month including VAT if I'm reading this thread right. That cost is before the traffic has actually touched the Plusnet network so includes zero MSIL charges or any of Plusnet's operational costs.

That doesn't strike me a a no brainer. It leaves me wondering just how much they're getting in discounts from BT Wholesale and how heavily they are relying on line rental at £15.95 / month to subsidise the broadband because there is absolutely no way at list prices or close to them that the broadband element of the deal is profitable.

If they are doing this and paying list price they are making a £1.71/month loss on this package, broadband only, before they have had to pay any of their own expenses or data has touched their network from the end user.

Edited by deleted (Fri 27-Jun-14 10:43:55)

Found a very interesting thread regarding this on the plusnet forum,
http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,1281...

Both Fibre products will be provisioned on 80/20 speeds, however, the Unlimited Fibre (Up to 38Mbps) package will be capped at 40/20 on our side.

An aside to this: On the 'basic' Unlimited Fibre (40/20) would any potential future Plusnet IPTV (Multicast) offering be using bandwidth only within the PN capped 38Mbps or could it use additional available bandwidth since the line is still provisioned on 80/20 so some 'spare' may be available?

That's a genius idea. I hadn't considered it.
Plusnet: Head of Products and Digital Care

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

he was asking me about 40/10 not 40/20 in the post I replied to.

I feel like I am been ganged up on here.

Not by intention .

I've a feeling you may have edited your post that I replied to whilst I was checking the Openreach and BTW pricelists, (which isn't something done quickly), to make sure they hadn't introduced a 40/20. Was your edit to change "I have never heard of an isp supplying 40/20 on the 80/20 openreach service. that makes no sense" to "I have never heard of an isp supplying 40/10 on the 80/20 openreach service ..."?

The timings of our posts and your edit fit. If it was to do that, the timing does suggest it was an understandable typo, but I would have been working from the original and no reason to think it was a typo.

My point was that as of the latest product re-jig Plusnet are supplying a download-slugged 80/20 for the 40Mbps product. As has now been confirmed. Also, contrary to what mixt said in this post, they haven't been doing it up until the re-jig.

Until then, as has been said, they did supply (Openreach) 40/10 on 80/20 orders if the estimate was below 40Mbps. I strongly disapproved of that. It is to be hoped they aren't continuing so to do.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 27-Jun-14 12:39:37)

And particularly as BT Wholesale charge the same price on all markets for their WBC FTTC products.

£16+VAT does look unsustainable.

Individual providers are able to negotiate pricing deals, and it may be that PlusNet has one, not unlike EE with their 'network area' pricing.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

And particularly as BT Wholesale charge the same price on all markets for their WBC FTTC products.

£16+VAT does look unsustainable.

Individual providers are able to negotiate pricing deals, and it may be that PlusNet has one, not unlike EE with their 'network area' pricing.

Does the above mean that there's no real justification (from a costs point of view) charging me £7.50 per month extra for being on a market 1 exchange?

The standard wholesale for FTTC is the same for all exchanges that doesn't mean that is the case for whatever negotiation Plusnet may have done with BT Wholesale.

So, it may or may not be justified.

Also, contrary to what mixt said in this post, they haven't been doing it up until the re-jig.

Thanks for clarifying the wood from the trees here Rob, much appreciated.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

Netflix usage caught Sky, VM and others completely off guard. The congestion on the BT Wholesale, Sky and VM networks is directly attributable to increased usage of high quality streaming video.

iPlayer etc. 720p 2500Kbps VBR might be the norm though - what's the bit rate on that "high quality streaming video"?

Netflix recommend 5Mbps for their HD streams. More for the Super HD.

Doesn't sound like much but enough people going from a bit of intermittent browsing and downloading to sustaining 5Mbps or the 2.5Mbps streams from iPlayer makes a dent in networks built around 500kbps peak usage.

"Ultra high quality" - UltraHD - 4K - 3840x2160 at 20 to 30Mbps will probably be the next step from "Super HD" (1920x1080 ~10Mbps?)

I've just obtained a "4K" 3840x2160 .mov video file compressed at 64Mbps VBR and it's unplayable on my machines even though I have the codec installed. So as well as increased bandwidth for streaming one is going to have to upgrade hardware even for 20 to 30Mbps "4K" stuff?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Openreach only have three FTTC products. 40/2, 40/10, 80/20.

Therefore Plusnet are download speed capping the 80/20.

Sometimes next year BT to bring in 120/30 with new vectoring and g.fast. So, it will be 40/10, 80/20 and 120/30.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

From 1st July pressure for that extra 18 month contract to not be there increases a lot as migrations will be just 1 month contract on FTTC

I guess many isp's will probably ignore 1st July for any migrations from one isp to other isp on FTTC to reduce 18 months to 1 month contract without a deal special price. As Plusnet always giving a good deal discount prices but asking the customer to renewal as a 12, 18 or 24 months contract depend on the deal prices.

Edited by adslmax (Fri 27-Jun-14 14:37:09)

And any proof of this statement beyond a soggy beer mat?

g.fast in 2015 as a live product really

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

And any proof of this statement beyond a soggy beer mat?

g.fast in 2015 as a live product really

got email from BT PD Wales & The Marches NGA that coming soon it will be FTTC 120/30 as BT are pushing the speed sometimes next year which it good news as the trial are going very well with vectoring and G.Fast. BT want the new product 120/30 when BT Sports take over Sky as a new Champion League for 2015/16 season. But, BT say it will be available around 25% who got the higher speed 80/20 will getting 120/30 next year. For those who live much closer to the cabinet up to 100m away.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

And any proof of this statement beyond a soggy beer mat?

g.fast in 2015 as a live product really

got email from BT PD Wales & The Marches NGA that coming soon it will be FTTC 120/30 as BT are pushing the speed sometimes next year which it good news as the trial are going very well with vectoring and G.Fast. BT want the new product 120/30 when BT Sports take over Sky as a new Champion League for 2015/16 season. But, BT say it will be available around 25% who got the higher speed 80/20 will getting 120/30 next year. For those who live much closer to the cabinet up to 100m away.

Would you care to post that email here, please

I also have emails promising me millions if I send them my bank account details.

I think people should stop dreaming and wait until at least ISP level trials are underway and then subsequent products appear on the price lists.

In reply to a post by armistice:

Would you care to post that email here, please

Sorry but I already deleted it

ignition its as I said in other posts.

plusnet are now in my view primarily a phone/voice provider and broadband is just used to drag those voice customers in.

Do you agree with me at all on that? As your figures seem to back my case up.

with 40/20 I guess they banking on the higher upload speed on the lower product to be a customer magnet. A difference over other 40/10 products to make it standout.

Its also possible there is a wholesale price drop incoming which plusnet may be privy to.

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 27-Jun-14 15:59:56)

I was probably fixing a typo, as I make tons of them. I usually add -edit- if its a bigger change.

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 27-Jun-14 15:57:34)

If it was intended to be a strong magnet I'm sure it would have much greater visibility than being hidden in the "More details" dropdowns. It doesn't stand out.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 27-Jun-14 16:32:47)

You do realise that a jump to 120 would mean a VDSL2 profile jump from 17a (100 Mbps) to 30a (200 Mbps), making lines run more "hot". I do not know if the profile can be set per line or per cabinet (maybe someone can clarify that?). In any case, going to 200Mhz is going to introduce even more cross talk, which I suppose is why the vectoring would be introduced. The way I see it, only people very near the cabinet are likely to see any significant jump in speed in relation to their existing "theoretically obtainable" speed.

AIUI the aim of vectoring is to improve the performance within the 80Mbps band product.

Profile 30a doesn't look to be on the map, never mind the horizon, at the moment, given that the specified requirement for CP modems is 17a + vectoring.

He's making it up.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

In reply to a post by armistice:

Would you care to post that email here, please

Sorry but I already deleted it

That's mad, I still have emails from nearly 20 years ago!

why else would it be there?

In reply to a post by 4M2:

I've just obtained a "4K" 3840x2160 .mov video file compressed at 64Mbps VBR and it's unplayable on my machines even though I have the codec installed. So as well as increased bandwidth for streaming one is going to have to upgrade hardware even for 20 to 30Mbps "4K" stuff?

Can't you just watch them on Youtube?

In reply to a post by adslmax:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

And any proof of this statement beyond a soggy beer mat?

g.fast in 2015 as a live product really

got email from BT PD Wales & The Marches NGA that coming soon it will be FTTC 120/30 as BT are pushing the speed sometimes next year which it good news as the trial are going very well with vectoring and G.Fast. BT want the new product 120/30 when BT Sports take over Sky as a new Champion League for 2015/16 season. But, BT say it will be available around 25% who got the higher speed 80/20 will getting 120/30 next year. For those who live much closer to the cabinet up to 100m away.

After a little break he's back

Funny how a BT regional director chooses to inform some random member of the public of this while CPs are nonethewiser, and how said person obsessively copied fairly disinteresting emails allegedly from Liv Garfield to all and sundry but kept a major product development to themselves and indeed deleted the email in question.

Still thanks for brightening up a stressful Friday a little.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

I've just obtained a "4K" 3840x2160 .mov video file compressed at 64Mbps VBR and it's unplayable on my machines even though I have the codec installed. So as well as increased bandwidth for streaming one is going to have to upgrade hardware even for 20 to 30Mbps "4K" stuff?

Can't you just watch them on Youtube?

No I watch "4K" stuff uploaded to vimeo.com and they transcode to 1080p ~5Mbps AVC (x264) for online playback, although I can download members' "4K" original source files from that site - please link to a YT video at 3840x2160

Edit: OK I found one uploaded to YT 3 weeks ago, presumably transcoded to VP9, and it streamed at about 11Mbps...

Edited by 4M2 (Fri 27-Jun-14 19:59:51)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

And particularly as BT Wholesale charge the same price on all markets for their WBC FTTC products.

£16+VAT does look unsustainable.

Individual providers are able to negotiate pricing deals, and it may be that PlusNet has one, not unlike EE with their 'network area' pricing.

If that is the case why do PlusNet charge a extra £7.50 for Market 1 and do other ISP's also charge more? Interested because I should be getting FTTC next year and want to know if any of the prices I see will be available to me.

In reply to a post by astateoftrance:

If that is the case why do PlusNet charge a extra £7.50 for Market 1 and do other ISP's also charge more?

Plusnet's charges with the extra £7.50 are broadly comparable with most other ISPs, so it is more that they charge £7.50 less for non-Market 1 exchanges.

Well the end result is the same and there's still the question of why if the wholesale cost to them is the same.

Why bother with such high resolution?

Because even on 1080p it often looks better than the HD version.

If you had seen an uncompressed stream from a broadcast camera you would appreciate just how much quality is lost in the encoding/decoding phases.

I can't watch any of these with out the video stuttering https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD33E56187402...

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I can't watch any of these with out the video stuttering https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD33E56187402...

Can you play this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHvuHj5ssEc - it might be at a lower bit rate using the latest VP9 codec - I can just about play it with Firefox on my ~13000Kbps downstream sync?

Graphics card and PC speed will be a factor with rendering and handling any downsizing needed.

Remember frame rate issues back in 2001 when the first 2 Mbps streams from Apple Quicktime trailers were around.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Why bother with such high resolution?

3840x2160 resized to 1920x1080 generally does look better than native 1080p after compression

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Graphics card and PC speed will be a factor with rendering and handling any downsizing needed.

Remember frame rate issues back in 2001 when the first 2 Mbps streams from Apple Quicktime trailers were around.

Sure - also on my pc Firefox seems to handle the downsizing of 2160p better than Chrome although Chrome is smoother for 720p and 1080p at full screen (1920x1080)

it says to select original but I have no original as an option, its max 720p.

but on the subject of resolution, personally I find it hard to see the difference between watching netflix at 720p on my pc browser (as netflix in IE silverlight can only do max 720p) and super hd on my ps3.

There is a big difference in quality on netflix from 360p to 480p which I suspect is due to encoding more than resolution, and a moderate difference again to 720p but above that I barely notice.

on youtube I usually watch in 720p, and only bother to use 1080p if I need to read fine text in the video or something.

To me 4k is a clear fad. Sort of like HD on phones.

Edited by Chrysalis (Sat 28-Jun-14 18:09:37)

ok your link and batboy's link I can play in 4k in IE (firefox the option isnt there in menu).

Both no stuttering but I do get a momentary glitch after going full screen.

Basically default youtube behaviour unless unticked hardware acceleration box is this.

Software video rendering, hardware video decoding in window
Hardware video rendering and decoding full screen.

So try full screen if window is stuttering and it may well be smoother.

Mine is ok in both tho, maxes at about 20% gpu usage and not much cpu usage.

I have a haswell 4670k overclocked to 4.3ghz and gtx 760.

On the quality, looks no different to 1080p videos to me.

Have you tried the 1440p version of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHvuHj5ssEc - that's certainly the best option for my hardware and bandwidth - really clear image and no frame drop

in IE I did the highest one there which said 4k next to it.

With XP running Firefox v30.0 I get these options: 2160p 4k, 1440p hd, 1080p hd, 720p hd, 480p, 360p, 240p, 144p and auto - if I select auto in full screen then it plays at 1080p. 2160p will play in full screen (with some frame drop) but I get a more comfortable buffering margin with 1440p (and no frame drop) and the image is a little crisper than 1080p even though 1440p is re-scaled to fit my monitor at 1920x1080.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

We queried it and that was what we are assured they are doing, which makes it pretty cheap when TalkTalk charge £13.50 for 40/2 product

Once I see a speed test with high upload I'll be less sceptical

I changed to the 40/20 product yesterday and would happily show you a speed test but can't see an option to add an attachment.
The BT speed test shows an upload profile of 20Mb.

In reply to a post by dapjukebox:

I changed to the 40/20 product yesterday and would happily show you a speed test but can't see an option to add an attachment.
The BT speed test shows an upload profile of 20Mb.

For the BT speed test copy and paste the contents of the two text boxes of results, where you read the upstream IP Profile. (FYI the upstream IP Profile is always the value of the upstream maximum of the product. The downstream IP Profile is 0.9679 of the connection speed).

For the thinkbroadband speed test and the speedtest.net ones, they provide a link you can publish/post for people to click.

here is one from - I assume - a different customer http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,1286...

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by dapjukebox:

I changed to the 40/20 product yesterday and would happily show you a speed test but can't see an option to add an attachment.
The BT speed test shows an upload profile of 20Mb.

For the BT speed test copy and paste the contents of the two text boxes of results, where you read the upstream IP Profile. (FYI the upstream IP Profile is always the value of the upstream maximum of the product. The downstream IP Profile is 0.9679 of the connection speed).

For the thinkbroadband speed test and the speedtest.net ones, they provide a link you can publish/post for people to click.

How's this:

Download speed achieved during the test was - 37.78 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 31.35 Mbps-44.79 Mbps .
Additional Information:
IP Profile for your line is - 44.79 Mbps

Upload speed achieved during the test was - 7.83Mbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 20 Mbps

I think this confirms the PlusNet 40/20 product uses the BT 80/20 product but the download is limited by PlusNet to 40Mb

In reply to a post by dapjukebox:

I think this confirms the PlusNet 40/20 product uses the BT 80/20 product but the download is limited by PlusNet to 40Mb

Yes, but .

We already know this for a fact.

1) As I've already posted, the only products they can buy from BT Openreach and BT Wholesale are 40/2, 40/10 and 80/20, and

2) The quote from the Plusnet Head of Products in this post.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by dapjukebox:

I think this confirms the PlusNet 40/20 product uses the BT 80/20 product but the download is limited by PlusNet to 40Mb

Yes, but .

We already know this for a fact.

1) As I've already posted, the only products they can buy from BT Openreach and BT Wholesale are 40/2, 40/10 and 80/20, and

2) The quote from the Plusnet Head of Products in this post.

And I was responding to a request on the PlusNet forums by an employee of PlusNet to post a speed test as MrSaffron did not believe what they had told him.
Plusnet forum post

I'd forgotten that, as your immediate reply was of course to me .

Maybe he'll believe us and Plusnet now.

In reply to a post by dapjukebox:

How's this:

Download speed achieved during the test was - 37.78 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 31.35 Mbps-44.79 Mbps .
Additional Information:
IP Profile for your line is - 44.79 Mbps

Upload speed achieved during the test was - 7.83Mbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 20 Mbps

I think this confirms the PlusNet 40/20 product uses the BT 80/20 product but the download is limited by PlusNet to 40Mb

Using the fact that IP Profile = 96.79% (0.9679) of IP Profile, your IP Profile of 44.79 Mbps indicates a sync speed of around 46.28 Mbps.

Either you are actually on 80/20, but your connection can only sync at 46.28 Mbps or that everyone would end up on 80/20, but 'throughput' (not sync speed) is capped (by Plusnet) at 40 Mbps.



What is your Current Line speed (from Plusnet's Member Centre)?

When it worked properly, that would previously have been BT's IP Profile minus 100 kbps.

If it is now exactly 40 Mbps, it would suggest that Plusnet simply 'restrict' the 80/20 service to 40/20 'throughput', regardless of a potentially much higher actual sync speed.


FWIW, I THINK the maximum throughput speed available from Plusnet on a connection in sync at 40 Mbps (39999 Kbps) was 37.5 Mbps.
That would have given a BT IP Profile of around 38.72 Mbps.



I'm with Plusnet, out of contract for quite a few months now.

I am toying with the idea of signing up for the 40/20 product (on contract), because if it is actually a 80/20 service with only throughput restricted, it night cause a DLM reset back to a wide open profile again for my line to stabilise at whatever it can manage.

I was abl;e to achieve up to 35 Mbps sync speed, but can now only achieve 18.7 Mbps sync speed.

That may well be simply due to increased crosstalk, but I've never been 100% sure that DLM was reset with a wide open profile when an engineer visited to investigate my reduced speeds.
Either that or I'm now on a super-stable profile, where sync speed is intentionally reduced to provide stability in preference to speed.

The Current line speed is almost certainly how they have done it. It should be easy to stop it being updated by the auto-system.

(The difficulty is more in getting the auto-system to be reliable LOL).

And they have said that it is 80/20 but slugged.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 29-Jun-14 00:25:08)

In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:

FWIW, I THINK the maximum throughput speed available from Plusnet on a connection in sync at 40 Mbps (39999 Kbps) was 37.5 Mbps.
That would have given a BT IP Profile of around 38.72 Mbps.

When I joined PN on 2nd June, they provisioned me on the 40/10, when I wanted 80/20 because of some website screwup. I was on 80/20 with BT Infinity for the previous ~20 months. I managed a maximum download of 38Mbps on the tbb tester. My sync was 39998 / 9526 and there were ZERO errors reported by my HG612 for the few days I was on this profile. The PN website said I was connected at 38Mbps. Since I'd raised an issue, I was then switched to the Openreach 80/20 profile, and now sync at 56013 / 9523 and have around 60 error seconds/hour. The reset of the DLM (in the summer months !) has removed my interleaving and its stayed this way for the last few weeks. Whereas on Infinity I was connected in Sept 2012 and was interleaved from day 2 for the entire time.

That may well be simply due to increased crosstalk, but I've never been 100% sure that DLM was reset with a wide open profile when an engineer visited to investigate my reduced speeds.
Either that or I'm now on a super-stable profile, where sync speed is intentionally reduced to provide stability in preference to speed.

Interesting question, either migrating ISP or migrating product could kick DLM. I would wait until after 1st July when the new ofcom situation kicks in, as after then an ISP shouldn't be charged for migrations (and thus force people to minimum term 18month contracts).

I might as well give it a go then, especially as it'll be unlimited & slightly cheaper than my legacy Value Fibre product.

well remember if your estimate is low plusnet still provision 40/10 on the higher speed packages.

It's rather silly if BT Exchange say IP Profile on the line is 77.42Mbps / 20.00Mbps but throughput of 35Mbps / 17Mbps because of Plusnet capped current high speed of 38Mb if the product does change to 40/20 from 80/20 because they put everyones on 80/20.

I think it should go back to 40/10 and 80/20 both unlimited as there is no point for doing 40/20 on the higher product 80/20 as the local exchange staying at 78Mb to waste all the bandwidth.

Edited by adslmax (Sun 29-Jun-14 00:53:55)

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

well remember if your estimate is low plusnet still provision 40/10 on the higher speed packages.

Has that been confirmed or tested since the new products came out? I did raise that question earlier.

well yeah its possible plusnet may have changed their policy to always provisiion at 80/20 regardless of estimate.

if bald eagle changes over, he will test that question

They are STILL CHARGED for migrations except it is £11 not £50 (plus VAT)

Still waiting to see a speedtest that shows upstream is uncapped but down is not.

Don't take BT wholesale ones

My current line speed in the PlusNet member centre is showing as 40Mb

In reply to a post by dapjukebox:

My current line speed in the PlusNet member centre is showing as 40Mb

So that does (more or less) confirm an 80/20 service then, choked by Plusnet to 40 or 38 Mbps DS throughput.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

well yeah its possible plusnet may have changed their policy to always provisiion at 80/20 regardless of estimate.

if bald eagle changes over, he will test that question

Unless they do still apply the 'less than 40 Mbps achievable then use a 40/10 service' rule.


Connections unable to achieve 40 Mbps DS sync speed are highly unlikely to achieve anywhere near 10 Mbps US, never mind 20 Mbps.

In reply to a post by dapjukebox:

The BT speed test shows an upload profile of 20Mb.

That proves it.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Still waiting to see a speedtest that shows upstream is uncapped but down is not.

Don't take BT wholesale ones

?
But that isn't the question.

The question is how is the Plusnet 40/20 product supplied, and the answer as shown by the upstream and downstream IP Profiles is that it is an 80/20 with the downstream capped by Plusnet, which has set a Current line speed of 40Mbps.

We don't need to see the upstream attain above 10Mbps to establish that, and it is unlikely Plusnet are lying in their statement they provide "up to 20Mbps" upstream. Though as an advertising claim that is probably outside the rules if they are the same as are applicable to downstream.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 29-Jun-14 13:36:00)

It would be nice to someone's line stats showing a sync speed of above 40M downstream and 10M upstream, however. Unfortunately, the OR modem is locked so these stats are unavailable.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

They are STILL CHARGED for migrations except it is £11 not £50 (plus VAT)

Oh, apologies, I mis-remembered the news article. £50 explains the contract lock in. £11 is low enough it may be passed to customers as a fee, depending on ISP.

Is there any chance that a new FTTC connection could be offered as self install, broadband only on a 30 day minimum term - I would be willing to pay an activation fee but wouldn't want to be locked into a 1 year or 18 month contract with an ISP? 40/20 might be quite interesting to test, i.e. whether it has any significant advantage, in terms of my usage, over my current ADSL2+ throughput speeds.

NO

For a new connection via FTTC it is still the £50'ish fee and a 12 month minimum term from Openreach

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

NO

For a new connection via FTTC it is still the £50'ish fee and a 12 month minimum term from Openreach

Thanks for the reply Andrew - in that case I will definitely give FTTC a miss for the time being.

BTW. the Panasonic GH4 looks pretty good for shooting "4k" - 2160p 100Mbps .mov

Yes, Plusnet does put customer on 40/20 on the 80/20 product but Plusnet just capped from their side at 40Mbps but the exchange stay at 77.42Mbps. Just waiting for plusnet staff to confirmed this!

Edited by adslmax (Mon 30-Jun-14 00:22:39)

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Yes, Plusnet does put customer on 40/20 on the 80/20 product but Plusnet just capped from their side at 40Mbps but the exchange stay at 77.42Mbps. Just waiting for plusnet staff to confirmed this!

Sorry don't know much about vdsl but how do PN cap the 80/20 product to 40/20?

Using their Ellacoya traffic shaping http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php?topic=20869.0

Edited by deleted (Mon 30-Jun-14 08:24:37)

I'm not sure a link to a nine-year-old post helps. It seems from all the evidence that they just set the current line speed to 40Mbps in the member profile. Whether this counts as "Ellacoya traffic shaping" I somewhat doubt.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Using their Ellacoya traffic shaping http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php?topic=20869.0

Procera these days, chap.

In reply to a post by kasg:

I'm not sure a link to a nine-year-old post helps. It seems from all the evidence that they just set the current line speed to 40Mbps in the member profile. Whether this counts as "Ellacoya traffic shaping" I somewhat doubt.

That number isn't there for fun. They use that to enforce traffic prioritisation on their Procera kit.

Without setting a value slightly below the BT Wholesale IP Profile it's impossible to manage traffic effectively as natural congestion kicks in.

My parents going to order FTTC 40/20 as they don't want the fastest one as their line does support 77Mbps. So, once they had FTTC activated as I will find out if their FTTC is on the 80/20 product by BT Openreach and see if Plusnet does capped their line at 40Mbps.

Edited by adslmax (Mon 30-Jun-14 10:25:24)

I would hazard a wild guess that Plusnet have some idea what they are ordering. I have seen screenshots of BT Wholesale speedtests with the 20Mb IP Profile on the upstream anyway.

We already know it from a post by someone on 40/20. We've seen the sync speed, IP Profile in both directions, and the 40Mbps Current line speed. Quite apart from Plusnet having said it's done by capping the 80/20 download speed.

They wouldn't be so stupid as to put it on their website as upstream "up to 19.5Mbps" if they were capping that.

All we don't know is what OR product any new 80/20 or 40/20 customer is put on if the BT estimate is below 40Mbps.

Why the original question in the Subject is still being talked about is bewildering.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

That number isn't there for fun.

Who said it was for fun? I was merely pointing out that a link to a nine-year-old post explaining the intricacies of traffic prioritisation on long-defunct products wasn't terribly helpful when there was a much simpler explanation, which has now been spelled out several times.

Only wanting the url to one of our results to see if there is any oddities that arise

Have lots of tests that fit the profile, but do not know which product the end user is on.

Sorry Kevin, misread your post. My bad.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Using their Ellacoya traffic shaping http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php?topic=20869.0

Procera these days, chap.

Thanks for the update. I guess the Ellacoyas have been passed to BT.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Thanks for the update. I guess the Ellacoyas have been passed to BT.

... who haven't realised they need to remove the Plusnet settings and put in their own .

It's just a question of branding.

So am I right in thinking that PN can upgrade an end user's account from 40/20 to 80/20 by "simply" changing the downstream IP Profile and downstream throughput would increase accordingly (assuming that their line is capable of throughput speeds in excess of 40Mbps)?

If that is the case I guess the reverse would also be true, leaving aside issues with contracts on particular products etc. ?

Yes, but I think it's the traffic shaping speed limit rather than the IP Profile

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Yes, but I think it's the traffic shaping speed limit rather than the IP Profile

So the modem can sync at speeds in excess of 40Mbps on the downstream but this "traffic shaping speed limit" thing caps the downstream throughput to less than 40Mbps?

In reply to a post by 4M2:

So the modem can sync at speeds in excess of 40Mbps on the downstream but this "traffic shaping speed limit" thing caps the downstream throughput to less than 40Mbps?

I believe that has already been proved on this thread, but it's getting so long I can't remember where.

Yes

The BT profile tries to track the sync. We apply the PN profile to either match that profile (just under) or 40Mbps, which ever is lower (On the 40/20 product). That profile is applied on our ERX/BNG LNS

(actually, the pn profile might be slightly above 40Mb.. I need Dave to confirm but he's away today)

In reply to a post by KellyD:

The BT profile tries to track the sync. We apply the PN profile to either match that profile (just under) or 40Mbps, which ever is lower (On the 40/20 product). That profile is applied on our ERX/BNG LNS

I can understand the BT profile tracking the sync but what's this "(the PN?) profile is applied on our ERX/BNG LNS" elaborated in layman's terms please?

The Juniper ERX is a L2TP Network Server / Broadband Network Gateway. This is where they set the speed limit - the Plusnet Profile.

Edited by deleted (Mon 30-Jun-14 13:57:24)

Thanks Kelly

There only seems to be one question remaining really. Which OR product is provisioned if the downstream estimate is below 40Mbps?

Certainly not long ago, on the 80/20 in such a case, 40/10 but with unlimited usage was provided and users needed to ask to be switched to 80/20 if they believed they would get over 40mbps. The ones I have seen they were always right.

With the new products there seems little need for that as both are unlimited. However it is possible that 40/10 may still be applied on both, on cost saving grounds. It would be great if you could confirm this will (or at least should) not happen.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

The Juniper ERX is a L2TP Network Server / Broadband Network Gateway. This is where they set the speed limit - the Plusnet Profile.

Thanks BatBoy

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,1130...

Explains it a bit more. This is point 3 in the list.

Can one take the PN 40/20 product, monitor the sync speed, which may reduce due to crosstalk etc. and then upgrade to 80/20, within the contract period, if the line can sustain sync speeds well in excess of 40Mbps? In other words test the line on 40/20 and if the performance warrants it upgrade away from the PN imposed speed limit?

If a customer is signing up for any Residential Fibre Product they should be provided on the 80/20 product, irrelevant of downstream speeds

I've seen a couple of examples where this hasn't happened, but they've been manual errors, rather than automated provisions.

yep.

In reply to a post by KellyD:

yep.

So I guess that would be a manual adjustment to the PN profile to more closely track the BT profile if one upgraded from 40/20 to 80/20. And just to confirm: this could be done during the initial 18 month contract together with a price adjustment yet without an additional activation fee for a broadband only deal?

Yep. I believe it's scheduled for next billing date though.

Thanks for the info

And without restarting the 18 months? (An implied q from 4M2 I think, but not specifically asked or answered).

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

And without restarting the 18 months? (An implied q from 4M2 I think, but not specifically asked or answered).

I certainly didn�t consider the possibility that restarting an 18 month contract, during the initial 18 month term, would be required for an upgrade and I should have specifically asked about that - thanks Bob for posting the additional enquiry

A product upgrade normally does, unless a special arrangement is made.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

A product upgrade normally does, unless a special arrangement is made.

A new contract wouldn't be too bad if one just monitored the line for a few a months on the 40/20 product, then, if performance justified it, an upgrade might be feasible.

How could the line be monitored: I guess checking the BT profile after any re-syncs might give an indication of any degrading performance if the modem stats are inaccessible?

In reply to a post by 4M2:

How could the line be monitored: I guess checking the BT profile after any re-syncs might give an indication of any degrading performance if the modem stats are inaccessible?

Yes, as you can always get the sync speed by multiplying the IP profile by 1.033.

Which on the new 40/20 will be brilliant, as it will tell you exactly what speed you will get on 80/20.

there is also a FAQ which clearly states they order 80/20 sorry for been lazy not posting the link but is on the plusnet forums.

Right guys, my parents had ordered phone & fttc with plusnet. Fibre installed on 10th July AM slot then the phone line switch over 4 days after that. Plusnet told my parents they even throw in the whole lots good deal with free activation, free Netgear N150 Wireless Router, discounts of £2.49 for 2 years contract fixed for fibre 40/20 even thought their line support of estimated by BT is 74.6Mbps down and 19.9Mbps up. As Plusnet put my parents on the 40/20 FTTC. Plusnet told my parent they would save £119.76 compare to BT for fibre and anytime calls. There is no discounts for FTTC 80/20 with phone. Only the 40/20 FTTC with phone. I think it rather odd and strange because Plusnet gave me discounts for fibre 80/20 with phone with large discounts than my parents. Are plusnet conned and rip off my poor parents with less discount on the 40/20 than the 80/20.

Edited by adslmax (Tue 01-Jul-14 07:52:27)

That looks very odd, but the broadband web pages seem to be down for me.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

That looks very odd, but the broadband web pages seem to be down for me.

You're not the only one

It's fine here! The site is all running ok

when was that? We don't supply a netgear any more?

Confused at one point the story is parents are getting a discount on 40/20 i.e. £2.49 off the £14.99 and then at the they end you complain they are being ripped off as the 80/20 gets a better discount?

In reply to a post by KellyD:

when was that? We don't supply a netgear any more?

it say on my parents order on the member account. It does say Netgear Router WNR1000

Proof is here: http://postimg.org/image/apdl5ubs3/

If u don't supply Netgear, then you shouldn't mis-sold my parents! Otherwise my parents would say no to free router if it wasn't Netgear.

But their account does stated Netgear!

If they are senting out Technicolor 582n wireless router (then my parents won't pleased about it because this Technicolor 582n wireless router is very poor overall with wireless for fibre)

Edited by adslmax (Tue 01-Jul-14 10:12:41)

What have they got at the moment, and who is their broadband with? Phone line is with who?

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 01-Jul-14 12:18:05)

Odd, that looks nothing like the order tracking page that I have on the Plusnet portal. Right down to the font and icons it's different.

That looks quite a lot like the old Plusnet portal though.

Here we go again huh.

I didn't spot the portal bit but think they are currently on Plusnet ADSLx. That's why I asked who their current broadband is with. He seems to be giving us a mixture of that order and what they have now ordered.

If they are with Plusnet then the standard new customer discounts wouldn't apply of course. Except they appear to be moving the phone as well so maybe they have got a deal. But not at £2.49pm. IIRC that was an ADSLx offer.

He also said earlier they were going to order 40/20, so "Plusnet put them on 40/20" is only to be expected.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 01-Jul-14 12:49:05)

Not quite. He was comparing their 40/20 discount with his 80/20 discount. Except he was not a new customer so I'm not sure he would have got one.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

It's rather silly if BT Exchange say IP Profile on the line is 77.42Mbps / 20.00Mbps but throughput of 35Mbps / 17Mbps because of Plusnet capped current high speed of 38Mb if the product does change to 40/20 from 80/20 because they put everyones on 80/20.

I think it should go back to 40/10 and 80/20 both unlimited as there is no point for doing 40/20 on the higher product 80/20 as the local exchange staying at 78Mb to waste all the bandwidth.

Perhaps they got a special discount for unusable bandwidth LOL!

These are nothing to do with my order. These are my parents order for Plusnet FTTC 40/20 and Plusnet sales retentions team told my parents yesterday they will have the cheapest FTTC is 40/20 unlimited and bring their phone line over to plusnet from BT with line rental and anytime calls as my parents were asked to agreement with 2 years contract with just £2.49 discount off the Fibre for 2 years. But, they told my parents they will getting Netgear Router free of charge and free activation fee.

But, I am not happy with the way plusnet treated them mis-sold Netgear Router (yes they have to pay P&P) and why 24 months contract? Poor deal really for £2.49 a month discount.

I got more large discount than my parents because I was on the FTTC 80/20 with phone and anytime calls with Plusnet.

Edited by adslmax (Tue 01-Jul-14 13:29:06)

I consider £12.50 P/M for FTTC 40/20 to be a very good deal, I would rather a shorter contract but then isn't 18 months standard for a new FTTC connection anyway? Obviously if they send a different router than they were told then they can send it back for a refund.

24 months for £12.50 for FTTC 40/20 is very long contract. It should be 18 months. But that's up to my parents choice. Finally Plusnet was mistake say it won't be Netgear router afterall.

Can you explain the 2 year contract?

The 2.49 is the standard discount if taking phone line with FTTC or broadband, not an introductory rate or any other kind of deal. Bit of fluff by the sales guy there or, if they are lucky, he's giving them an additional 2.49 off the list price of 14.99.

If you check the site Bob the 80/20 is on a 9.99 for the first 6 months deal, the 40/20 has no such introductory offer.

Apparently these unfortunate people are having a router Plusnet no longer provide, proof being a screenshot of a portal Plusnet no longer use, delivered on a package Plusnet don't offer, 40Mb/20Mb with a 2 year contract.

Bit dubious myself, not least because not a peep on the official community forum, though I was amused to see the stuff about 120Mb/30Mb being mentioned.

Edited by deleted (Tue 01-Jul-14 14:25:45)

In reply to a post by astateoftrance:

I consider £12.50 P/M for FTTC 40/20 to be a very good deal, I would rather a shorter contract but then isn't 18 months standard for a new FTTC connection anyway?

Yes even £17.49 (low cost area) for PN unlimited 40/20 "broadband only" is a good deal, except for the 18 month contract and the £50 activation. For example, in comparison, Zen will do unlimited 40/10 "broadband only" for about £31.50 + £30 activation + from £35.94 for a router on a 12 month contract.

I initially read his post as a price of 2.49, not a discount, but it wasn't worth posting again to point out my mistake and no-one would re-read the original post if I edited it .

The difference in b/b price with/without phone is £2.50.

Goodness knows where his facts are coming from.

Let me explain this..... Plusnet are offering my parents below:

Fibre Unlimited 40/20 (without phone) £14.99 (18 months contract)
Activation Fee £50.00
Router £40.00 with (p&p)

Fibre Unlimited 40/20 (with phone to bring in) £12.50 (including discount of £2.49 off for 2 years with 24 months contract)
Line Rental £15.95
Anytime £5.00
Free Activation Fee
Free Router (inc P&P)

Is that good deal or bad deal? My parents got until end of this week to cancel it if the deal isn't good. Their current discount are £7.00 off for ADSL2+ Unlimited Broadband without phone is £2.99 a month for 12 months) They want fibre as ADSL2+ is rather poor speed as they only getting 7-8Meg. And their phone are current with BT since 1970.

Edited by adslmax (Tue 01-Jul-14 20:23:58)

Their call really as it is their money.

Fibre Unlimited without phone was £17.49 I thought though. You may have a discount wrong

No, my parents are on the Market B low cost area is £17.49 for Fibre without phone. Yes, it's my parents choice. With phone is £14.99 reduced to £12.50 (with discount of £2.49 for 2 years)

http://postimg.org/image/79lgwaejn/

Edited by adslmax (Tue 01-Jul-14 21:01:45)

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Router £40.00 with (p&p)

"Get our latest 4-port wireless-n technology router worth £40 (P&P £5.99)."

Router should be free for unlimited 40/20 "broadband only" - just the P&P to pay if you want it?

according to this the router is included - P&P only https://portal.plus.net/home-broadband/broadband-only/

My parents say Plusnet sent them a router with Oldjim above is the router that my parents will be having one. I think the wifi will be ok for 40/20 fibre.

That very much depends on the house and what sort of walls etc it has as there have been a lot of gripes about the wireless coverage

If it was no good, I will buy my parents a Netgear DGND3700v2 same router what I got. Superb wifi all round. Or maybe a homeplug adaptor. Not sure if their electricity will work well as they are quite outdated electricity cable.

Edited by adslmax (Tue 01-Jul-14 22:08:23)

If their mains wiring is that outdated then a total house rewire or at the least a qualified electrician to safety test the wiring may be a wise idea

True but it will be costy to rewiring etc plus qualified electrician. I will try get my parents a better strongest wifi router. Or use ethernet all the way to the pc desktop from Plusnet router.

Is it a XP pc?

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Is it a XP pc?

no it windows 8

Just see if it works fine first?

If I've done my maths correctly.

12 months with Zen = £445

18 months with PNet = £364

Hi adslmax,

Mind sending me a quick PM with your parent's username please?

I'd like to find out why they might have been offered a Netgear as we only supply Technicolor TG582n routers.

Adam

PM sent Adam

I had tested my homeplug AV500 in my parents house this morning as they still on ADSL2+ and I did try it via their Netgear DGN2200 (not fibre support) and the homeplug AV500 does working ok in their house.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Why bother with such high resolution?

Given my Ultrabook is 3200x1800 native resolution (yes, higher than apple's so called "retina" nonsense), why not?

In reply to a post by astateoftrance:

but then isn't 18 months standard for a new FTTC connection anyway?

No, the wholesale contract has been 12 months since FTTC launched.

Why is apple's retina "nonsense". The whole idea of retina is that it is the density of the pixels that is important. So, 3200x1800 on a very large display would be less dense than a lower res on a small display. The importance is that the eye cannot discern the pixels at normal viewiing distance - that is a relation between resolution, screen size and viewing distance.

Your screen may be a "retina" display but only if it is small enough that the pixel density is high. Also, a TV generally doesn't need to be as high a resolution to be a "retina display" as the viewing distance is generally greater than with a laptop or tablet.

Edited by ian72 (Thu 03-Jul-14 08:48:23)

My ultrabook (Lenovo Ideapad Yoga Pro 2 if you care) is also a 13" size device - like a MacBook 13", so the point remains.

Anyhow, the point was that screen resolutions improving, there is little reason not to have better resolution streams - and actually your point about screen sizes is relevant - people are wanting to stream to larger screens (mostly TVs) so having better resolutions will matter more and more to providing a good quality image.

Fair enough. Just checking for clarity. I have to say though for a lot of my TV watching on a 46" screen I don't generally worry about the difference between SD and HD - mainly because if the program is good I stop noticing the image quality, it just needs to be good enough.

Because it's a higher resolution than 99% of current TVs and monitors can make use of.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Because it's a higher resolution than 99% of current TVs and monitors can make use of.

Yes... "today" maybe.

Roll back just a few years at most... things move forward, and it is happening.

The quality of "SD" or "HD" on a broadcast (especially for example with Sky) varies considerably - some SD broadcasts are shamefully poor, and that is noticeable to me and certainly does detract from the programme itself.

In much the same way I find poorly setup cinemas annoy me so I don't enjoy the film.

In reply to a post by ian72:

Why is apple's retina "nonsense". The whole idea of retina is that it is the density of the pixels that is important. So, 3200x1800 on a very large display would be less dense than a lower res on a small display. The importance is that the eye cannot discern the pixels at normal viewiing distance - that is a relation between resolution, screen size and viewing distance.

Your screen may be a "retina" display but only if it is small enough that the pixel density is high. Also, a TV generally doesn't need to be as high a resolution to be a "retina display" as the viewing distance is generally greater than with a laptop or tablet.

Critical also is the codec: it's often said that compression is an "art form", high compression rates can be achieved by making the image "look good" particularly where areas of the frame are static. A variable bit rate is useful in that regard since a higher bit rate can be used when there is rapid movement of the subject or there is movement within the whole frame. One example where hardware/software may not cope with playing every frame due to the increased bit rate and difficulties decoding is a pan shot where the pan is not smooth (dropped frames generally to maintain audio sync..)

Just seen this report from a member who is on 40/20
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

Kinda interesting that the download shows it is performing well but what IP Profile/cap is actually set on the PlusNet side, since it looks to be higher than 40 Meg.

The little blip on the stat of the HTTP is interesting, we see similar on some other capped products from other providers.

I had my install on wednesday, heres my results

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Kinda interesting that the download shows it is performing well but what IP Profile/cap is actually set on the PlusNet side, since it looks to be higher than 40 Meg.

Nothing confirmed yet (that I've seen) but Kelly did hint at something earlier in this thread:
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/plusnet/t/4338951-4...

(actually, the pn profile might be slightly above 40Mb.. I need Dave to confirm but he's away today)

My parents new router had come yesterday from Plusnet as it was Technicolor 582n wireless router with a red label to warns "DO NOT USE IT UNTIL BT ENGINEER HAS INSTALLED FIBRE".

Parents FTTC installation next week 10th July for 40/20 FTTC.

The problem is their telephone master socket cannot be removed as it very very difficult to take it off because it was well over 45 years old. With all painted all over screw and side panel.

Edited by adslmax (Fri 04-Jul-14 13:45:15)

If its damaged then Openreach might charge for a whole new master socket, or if lucky just replace it totally. Depends on mood, current rules and how people interact with the engineer.

Well if Openreach want to charged my parents for the whole new mastersocket, they will cancel the order because they both are on pension. As the old socket was already there when my parents moved in their house in early 1970. Why should my parents pay charges for the whole mastersocket?

I did check the mastersocket as it label "Telecom" and the master socket was good condition, no damage at all. It's just some previous owner stupid painted all over it with the screw as well. And side panel, if removed, the whole wallspaper could be ripped easy.

Edited by adslmax (Fri 04-Jul-14 14:17:44)

If it is a 1970's socket then nothing to worry about, they'll just fit a modern NTE5 for free then.

Note if its marked telecom then it is post 1984 at least, since was all GPO before then.

What with the offers, router and everything else this is something of a loss leader for everyone in terms of the effort expended, almost reads like the script from a Hollywood mini series.