Advice on FTTC Providers

My Cab on the Haslington Exchange is due to go live on 10th March. im Currently With Sky unlimited and they have been fantastic im currently getting 4.5mb on an old style cab.

Im Currently looking at BT but i know there FUP is extreme my question is im a big downloader on P2P sites/programs now i can except that this would be done off peak but does the FUP still effect through put ? or does it reach its full potential also what speeds to BT limit the P2P in peak hours? becuase if its around 4.mb im not going to be any worse off !

any advice on this or other FTTC providers (with Good Packages Welcome)

Many Thanks in Advnace for any replys

Darren

(Haslington Exchange )

Unreservedly recomment ADSL24, I'm on their 45GB pro package. No shaping or throttling, unlimited is just that.

DrT

P2P traffic is throttled by BT at all times.. How much, I have no idea as I am not with BT. Go over the FUP and you are limited to 2Mb for the next 30 days.

Have a look at Robertos site, which has details on FTTC providers and their offerings..

ADSL24 I agree with the Doc,that's the one I will be going with.PTP rules lol.

if i was to go with adsl24 or none bt would this router be ok for connection

http://www.technicolor.dslshop.co.uk/789_datasheet.a...

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

if i was to go with adsl24 or none bt would this router be ok for connection

http://www.technicolor.dslshop.co.uk/789_datasheet.a...

Ah! Um!

Currently all Openreach FTTC, (which is what we are talking about, the other FTTC being Virgin Media cable), is installed by Openreach.

They fit a new filtered faceplate to your master socket and supply a VDSL2 modem.

BT Infinity supplies a "cable" router (a special version of the Home Hub) to connect to the modem. With others ISPs such as ADSL24 either you buy a cable router from them or elsewhere. I have a Buffalo WHR-G300Nv2.

Openreach rules are that you must use their supplied modem. Replacing it with a VDSL2 router such as the one you quote is not allowed.

Having said that, have a good read of this thread. IIRC the 789 is featured.

am i corrct i thinking the router i posted is both a cable and adsl modem ? basically all in one solution

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

am i corrct i thinking the router i posted is both a cable and adsl modem ? basically all in one solution

It seems so, yes. But the point is you aren't allowed to use it on FTTC.

Read that thread I linked you to. The OP bought one.

does not say anything on adsl 24

Your existing ADSL or ADSL2+ router will not work with Fibre Broadband due to the new technology, so you will require a standard (non-ADSL) router (also known to as a 'Cable router') which you can then plug the provided VDSL2 modem into and share the connection on your network.

Does not say anything about what?

It says exactly what I did about a VDSL2 modem is supplied. So perhaps you mean it doesn't say you must not replace the Openreach modem.

In which case ADSL24 need to make it clearer. They need to include that statement in what you quote.

yeah sorry thats what i meant nothing about not being allowed will drop them an email and ask

Yes, that's best.

The VDSL2 modem is supplied by Openreach and supposed to be used. If you choose to use your own VDSL2 modem/router that is fine, but you won't get any support if you develop any faults unless you're using the provided one by Openreach, e.g. If any tests need to be ran, or an engineer visit, Openreach/BT won't help unless you are using the supplied one.

I expect things to change in the next few years as non-engineer installations and managed equipment is provided (self install), just like how the original managed 512k ADSL was installed by BT engineers "back in the day".

Thanks

Edited by deleted (Sat 05-Mar-11 17:35:21)

In reply to a post by Spasch:

P2P traffic is throttled by BT at all times.. How much, I have no idea as I am not with BT. Go over the FUP and you are limited to 2Mb for the next 30 days.

Have a look at Robertos site, which has details on FTTC providers and their offerings..

Another non-BT expert on BT.

I quote:

In reference to bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/10495/c/346/?s_cid=con_FURL...:

Because a lot of P2P traffic is not time-critical, e.g., downloading and uploading TV programmes or movies for later viewing, we treat P2P traffic differently from time-critical traffic (such as surfing, streaming or internet telephony) and apply speed restrictions to all P2P traffic. We manage these restrictions daily based on the demands on the network, but downstream restrictions will typically be in place 4pm - midnight on weekdays and 9am - midnight on the weekend. Upstream restrictions may be in place at other times.

If you take a while to learn about the management you can circumvent it. Newsgroups run full pelt at all times though.

Edited by orly (Sat 05-Mar-11 18:00:00)

........We manage these restrictions daily based on the demands on the network, but downstream restrictions will typically be in place 4pm - midnight on weekdays and 9am - midnight on the weekend. Upstream restrictions may be in place at other times.

The text quite obviously states that they will throttle p2p as they see fit based on the demands of their network. So the poster you refer to isn't misinformed and it is confrontational to refer to other posters as "another non BT expert".

Many of the replies you post are simply rude. Try addressing the original poster, instead of continually attacking others who (misinformed or not) are also trying to be helpful.

Just thought i would update you all on real life BT FUP experience

I have downloaded over 600GB on my BT FTTC connection, and the last 30 days i have been restricted as per their FUP.
I did get warning emails at 240GB

BT restricted me to 2Mbit dead on 5pm until midnight weekdays, weekend was full speed.

Did not really affect me as i downloaded at all other times.

Hope that is of some use to people when deciding on FTTC ISP's

Thanks for All the Replys to my posts ,

but my questions still come down to

Does BT Infinity restrict Speeds on P2P apps in off peak as i have seen these on other forums, just want to make sure so anyone who is on BT and uses P2P please let us know about of peak restrictions.

At the minute im looking at Aquiss / ADSL24 but just need this info on BT beforfe i finally decide

Many Thanks to All who post on Here the knowledge fountain is incredible when it comes to BB

Don't touch BT Infinity.

Even if the throttling isn't as prevelant as everybody accuses BT of, the sheer volume of users opting for their unlimited package so as to download large files off peak may be counter productive any way.

You should be looking for reassurance on capacity, not simply usage limits.

during the weekdays after midnight did your speed go back up to full ?

Thanks for posting that . Very useful to refer people to.

You should be looking for reassurance on capacity, not simply usage limits

As you say, I also think congestion is a very probable issue.

@zadeks when you say don't touch -- would be useful if you'd clarify why. Certainly for some people it may not be appropriate. P2P perhaps.

However for many it remains IMO a good option. 300 GB is a higher limit than you'll find for 25 pcm. So for me it really was the only viable option.

I use about 100-160 GB/month. Much of the time I get 32 Mbps+ (profile is 34). On one occasiononly in nearly 2 months when tested (peak) I got lower than 27 (it was about 23) but it could have been a local problem.

As previously I had an unlimited 3-4 Mbps infinity was a good match for me.

Customer support (albeit via twitter/email/forum) sorted out a HH3 for me after I showed the HH2 was cr*p - all sorted out pretty quickly with ppl who knew what they were talking about.

is Infinity any good for streaming tv ??

Of course he's misinformed. He isn't even a BT user but confidently trumpets that its throttled at all times.

Evidence, to the contrary, posted by a BT user (me) who knows what it does and doesn't do is posted.

Who do you think is more accurate?

Edited by orly (Sun 06-Mar-11 15:58:28)

Yes -- I've streamed
- BBC iPlayer (SD, HD)
- YouTube (anything up to 1080p)
- muzu tv
- lovefilm movies
- demand 5
- itv player, 4od (PC only)
- catchup tv (live streaming)
etc

Not only that but there's enough bandwidth for multiple streams concurrently if other ppl in house using

Streams also often will start near immediately. certainly iplayer on my samsung TV even in HD plays in less than 1s - no more waiting/buffering.

You are restricted to 300GB fup, but at least it's simple - no time of day to worry about.

iPlayer HD (720p) uses around 1.5GB/hour, SD must be round 0.75 GB/hour. Youtube 1080p may be higher

Must like your TV lol.

Only used iplayer and youtube myself but it runs nicely.

Who do you think is more accurate?

Probably neither of you.

But this is a forum. People post their opinions. And that's what they are.....just opinions.

It didn't sound like trumpeting to me. If anything you seem to be sycophantically "trumpeting" BT all over the forum. That's your perogative. I just wish you could refrain from trying be so confrontational about other peoples posts. Getting boring.

In reply to a post by orly:

Of course he's misinformed. He isn't even a BT user but confidently trumpets that its throttled at all times.

Evidence, to the contrary, posted by a BT user (me) who knows what it does and doesn't do is posted.

Who do you think is more accurate?

Can you please start trying to put your opinion across with a little less rudeness, a little less spite and a little less "I know better than you". As numerous people have stated, it's getting old and it makes your opinion practically worthless with each spiteful reply.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Thanks for All the Replys to my posts ,

but my questions still come down to

Does BT Infinity restrict Speeds on P2P apps in off peak as i have seen these on other forums, just want to make sure so anyone who is on BT and uses P2P please let us know about of peak restrictions.

At the minute im looking at Aquiss / ADSL24 but just need this info on BT beforfe i finally decide

Many Thanks to All who post on Here the knowledge fountain is incredible when it comes to BB

I'll gladly help if you have any specific ADSL24 queries?

Thanks

Whats rude about it? He posted false information and I corrected it. All I've said is "misinformed" and "confidently trumpets" which seems to be the case.

Also it isn't exactly an opinion on my part. I've just stated the relevant facts. Others continue to post inaccurate or just blatently false stuff about the BT Infinity service without ever having used it. None of it is backed up in reality, or in evidence - yet a specific group seem intent on continually pumping out the misinformation. Meanwhile if an actual user posts anything positive they get shot down instantly.

Maybe you are still thinking about the time, a few weeks back, when it was you who needed corrected? Hmm. What was it? "forced to use the Home hub" (false) "...pay for delivery of it" (it's supplied free of charge) and "a strict usage policy" (when you were comparing it to a service from another ISP with a 30GB, 16 hour a day peak period!). You also tried the P2P throttling angle but stopped at "serious".

Funny enough, but more funny was it was your own thread where you were complaining about some dismal service from your carefully considered FTTC choice and how they managed to screw you over before the service was even installed. Stellar.

If ADSL24 had a forum, you wouldn't see me rocking up saying it only does this or only does that. Or inventing traffic management rules or deciding that despite them giving 30GB peak that it's only really 20GB because it would be laughable and false. Why the persistence and defence of those who wade in with this sort of nonsense when it's BT?

Edited by orly (Sun 06-Mar-11 19:55:07)

the bt hub is free of charge as long you stay in the contract for 12 months or more and i know people will do but just in case the below is on bt
and i am only saying people !!
3. Equipment prices
The Hub
The standard price of the hub is £91.90. We may allow you to defer payment of this price for up
to 12 months from the date that we accept your order. Any part of the standard price for the
hub that we allow you to defer, becomes payable either 12 months after we accept your order or
at the point that you end the service � whichever is the earlier. If you keep the service for 12
months or more from the date that we accepted your order, we will waive any deferred payment
that you would be liable to pay for the hub. If you end the service within 12 months of us
accepting your order, we will waive part of the payment that we allowed you to defer, but you
will still be liable to pay £46.00 towards the standard cost of the hub.
The

Also it isn't exactly an opinion on my part. I've just stated the relevant facts. Others continue to post inaccurate or just blatently false stuff about the BT Infinity service without ever having used it. None of it is backed up in reality, or in evidence - yet a specific group seem intent on continually pumping out the misinformation. Meanwhile if an actual user posts anything positive they get shot down instantly.

It is your opinion, and it is just as valid as anybody elses on here. Without different opinion debate would not be possible, whether misinformed or ultimately substantiated.

It just doesn't have to be made so competitive does it? You will never learn anything unless you first learn to listen.

So if we can now play nicely, do you think that maybe, just maybe all the talk of unlimited usage is a little bit of a smoke screen?

If you increase speed so dramatically as FTTC can, isn't the average user likely to consume more?

And won't the capacity need to rise accordingly?

In the electrical design industry we refer to it as "allowance for diversity". It's very important for calculating how to cope with peak demand. And it is very easy to bank on the low side as far as costs are concerned.

Which leads us nicely to BT's price point!

Now if you can point to a link to some of those figures for us, that would reinforce your opinion properly. Until then it's just your opinion.

Guys I was only asking about bt off peak and if they throttled it like peak I know everyone has there own favourites suppliers and you all use them for your own preferences such as peer to peer or news groups etc etc. Think my question as been lost in this debate lol

Remain calm, Orly.

BT Infinity is clearly the best value FTTC product on the market and is hoovering up the punters. Sky and TalkTalk are coming.

Punters will make up their own minds whether they wish to spend well over the odds for an alternative tiny provider or referral driven service.

In reply to a post by mrnelster:

... do you think that maybe, just maybe all the talk of unlimited usage is a little bit of a smoke screen?

If you increase speed so dramatically as FTTC can, isn't the average user likely to consume more?

And won't the capacity need to rise accordingly?

In the electrical design industry we refer to it as "allowance for diversity". It's very important for calculating how to cope with peak demand. And it is very easy to bank on the low side as far as costs are concerned.

Which leads us nicely to BT's price point!

Now if you can point to a link to some of those figures for us, that would reinforce your opinion properly. Until then it's just your opinion.

What is very obvious on these forums is the volume of high-usage downloaders who are going to BT Infinity precisely because the "unlimited" usage at a ridiculously low price is what always has attracted them in the past. For the latest example see this post.

That has to be a problem before long, if not already.

Even Be is losing such users to Infinity - no doubt much to the relief of all remaining O2 and Be customers.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Guys I was only asking about bt off peak and if they throttled it like peak I know everyone has there own favourites suppliers and you all use them for your own preferences such as peer to peer or news groups etc etc. Think my question as been lost in this debate lol

I suppose the question to ask if you are a very heavy user is how much the 240gig and 600gig usage would cost on an alternative provider. If you are less than 300gig it's a no brainer.

Edited by deleted (Sun 06-Mar-11 21:05:46)

Not read anything about sky coming where have you heard that

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

In my opinion as a BT employee BT Infinity is clearly the best value FTTC product on the market and is hoovering up the punters. Sky and TalkTalk are coming.

Punters will make up their own minds whether they wish to spend well over the odds for an alternative tiny provider or referral driven service.

Corrected that for you.

Touch�!

Hi Bill, you should keep your stalking, shockingly bad and partisan moderation to the non technical Free Chat forum.

That way Free Chat can continue to decline and the credibility of the main site will hopefully remain largely undamaged.

Edited by deleted (Sun 06-Mar-11 21:46:37)

Thanks for the reminder. There is always the possibility that Sky will not wish to compete in the majority of the country that has Openreach FTTC and Virgin but I seriously doubt they will want to watch their punters walk.

There will always be room for small high price niche providers and referral agents but I don't expect Sky to be one of them.

Edited by deleted (Sun 06-Mar-11 21:50:34)

Given it is still early days for fttc I do think sky will leave it till 2012 or end of 2011 before offering service as they have invested alot in there own equip

Indeed they have. However Sky are only going to watch their punters lock in to contracts with BT Infinity or TalkTalk for so long.

Sky are a major player in broadband, I would imagine they want to stay that way.

Living standards are projected to fall. Once punters lock in with BT Infinity, they may start considering just how much they are paying for Sky PayTV.

Edited by deleted (Sun 06-Mar-11 22:01:43)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

That has to be a problem before long, if not already.

As it has before - it will do again. Many of us in this thread have seen ISPs change prices, get loads of high volume subscribers, and then have to increase prices or introduce traffic management in a fast and ill-considered way.

Even Be is losing such users to Infinity - no doubt much to the relief of all remaining O2 and Be customers.

In the cases I've read about its former BE customers who are on less than 10meg service; and are desperate for higher numbers.

Only just spotted your edit...

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

the credibility of the main site will hopefully remain largely undamaged.

That's my aim too... always best if potential vested interests aren't hidden, wouldn't you say?

Glad we look at these things in the same way

In reply to a post by orly:

Must like your TV lol.

Not that much actually, but famly of 4 in the house, 3 of which use streaming regularly.
Muzu was great for streaming vids for parties

I didn't mention it's unlimited as I know that to be false too. I'm happy to point that out to people and have done.

Takes a bit of digging but it's easy enough to establish the 300GB "soft cap" and then the speed reduction that kicks in.

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

Remain calm, Orly.

BT Infinity is clearly the best value FTTC product on the market and is hoovering up the punters. Sky and TalkTalk are coming.

Punters will make up their own minds whether they wish to spend well over the odds for an alternative tiny provider or referral driven service.

You, as a BT bod know this. I, as a former one, know this also.

And with such massive uptake rates and all the leechers apparently jumping on board I should have noticed the service going down the tubes by now. Not sure why, but that hasn't happened. Running nicely for you? (if you have it. can't recall if you're on Infinity).

In reply to a post by Johnct:

the bt hub is free of charge as long you stay in the contract for 12 months or more and i know people will do but just in case the below is on bt
and i am only saying people !!
3. Equipment prices
The Hub
The standard price of the hub is £91.90. We may allow you to defer payment of this price for up
to 12 months from the date that we accept your order. Any part of the standard price for the
hub that we allow you to defer, becomes payable either 12 months after we accept your order or
at the point that you end the service � whichever is the earlier. If you keep the service for 12
months or more from the date that we accepted your order, we will waive any deferred payment
that you would be liable to pay for the hub. If you end the service within 12 months of us
accepting your order, we will waive part of the payment that we allowed you to defer, but you
will still be liable to pay £46.00 towards the standard cost of the hub.
The

You're quoting the Tariff Guide which is for Total Broadband, the more accurate one is:

In some cases we will allow you to defer payment of the full price of the BT Infinity Home Hub that we supply for use with the service. If you move to a different product within our portfolio or end the service within 12 months of BT accepting your order for that service, and you did not pay the full price for the BT Infinity Home Hub when you placed your order, you will be liable to pay the balance � that is, the price as set out in the Tariff Guide, less any amount which you paid upfront when you placed your order, unless you end the service within the cancellation period (as detailed in paragraph 10 of the Residential Standard Terms). The deferred payment is no longer payable after you have received the service for 12 months or more from the date that your order was accepted by BT.

As the contract is 18 months this is pretty moot.

If you leave early, the cost of the hub is the least of your worries

Edited by orly (Mon 07-Mar-11 03:05:11)

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Given it is still early days for fttc I do think sky will leave it till 2012 or end of 2011 before offering service as they have invested alot in there own equip

they can still use their LLU kit on FTTC.

Well sky retention team just phoned me about why I was moving from there bb service so had to explain that I could not achieve any more from my 4.5mb line as was looking at fttc so she then proceeded to say virgin would have to dig my property up and install a box at the property at this point I was lmao inside then asked her do you know what FTTC is she said no so explained the answer And the response was of sheer quality "0h the bt infinity thing". But asked if sky were trailing any she said not to general public so who knows they might go with it or lower there prices for retention as offered to muself today

In reply to a post by orly:

Maybe you are still thinking about the time, a few weeks back, when it was you who needed corrected? Hmm. What was it? "forced to use the Home hub" (false) "...pay for delivery of it" (it's supplied free of charge) and "a strict usage policy" (when you were comparing it to a service from another ISP with a 30GB, 16 hour a day peak period!). You also tried the P2P throttling angle but stopped at "serious".

I'm loving the quotations that you've made there that are actually not at all what I said; lets see:

Paying for the delivery of the home hub:

http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProduc... - Look at the bottom in the "Legal Stuff" and you will see there is a compulsory £5 P&P charge that's added onto your bill, you probably didn't even read it.

Forced to use the home hub:

I never said that, merely that I was being forced to have one and thus pay delivery for something I didn't need.

Strict usage policy:

BT has one of the longest most complex T's & C's of any ISP and in it they state that P2P can be throttled at any time.

"Because a lot of P2P traffic is not time-critical, e.g., downloading and uploading TV programmes or movies for later viewing, we treat P2P traffic differently from time-critical traffic (such as surfing, streaming or internet telephony) and apply speed restrictions to all P2P traffic." - BT.com

There is a 300GB FUP in force too, so it's not really "unlimited" like they claim. I'm in no position to talk about just how restrictive their policy / shaping could be, if every restriction they mention was to be used, but I'm pretty sure it beats "no traffic shaping", which is what numerous other FTTC providers are offering.

You are a rude and quite frankly obnoxious person, I think we could all do with a little less of the vitriol with which your replies are delivered.

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-Mar-11 13:45:11)

Seems P2P (generally illegal) downloading is the ultimate factor so say BT decide to throttle bit torrent aggressively 24/7 forever. They don't do this but entertain me on this hypothetical worst case scenario.

Take a figure of say 25KB/sec and then say you only use it for downloading stuff in an "off peak" period, say 9pm to 9am. Remember that BT don't distinguish between peak and off peak but again entertain me.

If you do the maths you see this comes to around 30GB a month. Now, for a lot of ISPs, this is a fair chunk of their "peak" allowances on packages that cost more, so you'd of course be *forced* to do it on their "off peak" periods late at night or at the weekend. Remember that you'll be, in just about every circumstance, paying more for this "privilege" too.

This is of course assumes that BT actually throttle that aggressively, which clearly they don't. Thus it becomes patently obvious to anyone who runs the figures for a few minutes that you can't really lose. The only situation I can think of is someone on these "unlimited off peak" ISPs absolutely caning it for everything it's worth every second of the off peak to download terabytes of stuff. Wonder which ISP will start to suffer first? BT or some minnow?

And if downloading stuff is so mission critical to people, why aren't you all using newsgroups which fly like faecal matter off a shiny metal surface? By paying more to your ISP have you run out of money for a good news service?

Just some stuff for you to ponder.

I agree that stating the service is unlimited is pants and I don't defend BT doing that. I've said it many times which you'll be able to see if you read through my posts. That said 300GB seems sufficient to me.

Did you go with ADSL24 in the end or cancel? What happens if you go over your 1GB a day (16 hour) peak allowance?

Hope my delivery has been sufficiently rude (aka factual) for some people! (and we were never charged 5 quid for a home hub but maybe BT just like us for being long time customers. How much did you get your FTTC compatible router for?)

Edited by orly (Mon 07-Mar-11 17:21:56)

If you do the maths you see this comes to around 30GB a month. Now, for a lot of ISPs, this is a fair chunk of their "peak" allowances on packages that cost more, so you'd of course be *forced* to do it on their "off peak" periods late at night or at the weekend. Remember that you'll be, in just about every circumstance, paying more for this "privilege" too.

Sorry I don't follow you. Unless I'm misreading?

If my peak usage window is 8am-8pm @ 45GB, and is then unlimited during off peak times I don't see an issue?

Even if peak times are 6pm-midnight and unlimited off peak, I am still only using 30GB?

Did you forgot the off peak relaxed (unlimited within reason) bit?

Sorry, I'm confused!

Hang on. Re reading now you've edited!

Nope sorry. Still not sure what you're getting at there?

BT is best.

300GB FUP, and proven fast speeds from what I've seen

It's the fact you essentially can't do any downloading during peak periods on other ISPs at all. It's great that every port is wide open for your use but kinda sucks when you realise you have a very restrictive usage cap in place. Therefore you have to go and schedule stuff overnight. This isn't what I expect to use my FTTC connection for.

But people use BT's supposed throttling as a reason to avoid them while ignoring the punitive caps placed, sometimes for up to 16 hours a day, on other ISPs which cost more.

I'm pointing out that even if BT did throttle ultra aggressively (24/7) you'd still be able to download 30GB each month over a 12 hour stretch. The difference is, with BT, I have a choice of when I do this.

If I'd gone with ADSL24 for example, I'd have had no choice. Just would have had to do it overnight instead.

Add in that BT don't actually throttle stuff anywhere near as badly as some people make out and you see the use of it by those on other ISPs as some sort of stick to beat BT with is actually nothing but twigs.

Unless you're downloading terabytes of stuff off peak on the other ISPs, there's no reason to be anywhere near them and their excessive prices. The ONLY possible user profile where it makes any sense is the one where people are actually using P2P to download many hundreds of gigabytes or terabytes of stuff. Nearly without fail this makes you a massive piracy advocate unless you genuinely have a need to shift "legal" stuff in this quantity I've yet to see anyone who fits this profile around here.

If you aren't one of these people, you should be on BT Infinity.

Add in the fact that these ISPs are equally likely to frown upon the sorts of use that would be occurring. It's why they nearly all have their own AUPs/FUPs/T&Cs that have clauses about penalties for "degrading" the service or the experience of others.

Some seem to be wanting it both ways. BT get lambasted for using the word "unlimited" and for supposed "strict" throttling when it's not unlimited at all (as we all know). At the same time, apparently, BT are simultaneously attracting all the leechers because of this "unlimited" tag.

Then we have throttling bandied about as the crime of the century while getting sometimes 1GB/use per 16 hours a day on other ISPs is apparently "unlimited" because every port is left open. It's kinda like saying "this is a superb stretch of motorway and it even has no speed limit! Shame the car manufacturers have decided a 200CC engine that only goes to 50MPH is all I can have to experience it".

True lunatics around this forum. Need to take a long look at their analytical skills.

Edited by orly (Mon 07-Mar-11 19:18:31)

B. Network Management
4. What is BT's Traffic Management Policy?
BT continuously monitors network performance and reduces the speed available to very heavy users (typically less than 1 per cent of all customers) during a given month to ensure that the service received by other customers is not impacted through extremely heavy usage by a minority of people.
Customers who are classified as very heavy users will experience significantly reduced speed at peak times (typically 5pm-midnight every day but these times may change depending on the demand on the network) for a period of 30 days, or for as long as very heavy use continues. This applies to customers on all Options.
BT Total Broadband Option 3 and BT Infinity Option 2 allow unlimited downloads and uploads within the monthly rental price, so customers on these products will not be charged for over-use. However, this does not preclude BT from reducing your speed if you are a heavy user in order to protect the experience for the rest of our customers.
We may need to vary the policy from time to time to ensure the best possible experience for all our customers. This site will always be kept up to date with the latest information.

5. What is BT's policy on Peer-to-Peer (P2P) applications?
P2P refers to certain applications that enable files and program sharing between groups of people logged on to a P2P network. Because they use uploads and downloads and are often left running 24/7, they consume significant bandwidth, even when being used by just a small number of customers.
Because a lot of P2P traffic is not time-critical, e.g., downloading and uploading TV programmes or movies for later viewing, we treat P2P traffic differently from time-critical traffic (such as surfing, streaming or internet telephony) and apply speed restrictions to all P2P traffic. We manage these restrictions daily based on the demands on the network, but downstream restrictions will typically be in place 4pm - midnight on weekdays and 9am - midnight on the weekend. Upstream restrictions may be in place at other times.
You can, of course, still use P2P services, but downloads will take longer during the peak times.

-----------

I know we have been through all this, but I am trying to emphasise the point that the highlighted texts are the caveats that allow them to manage as much as they like. You can see that if that becomes necessary the P2P users will be hit the hardest.

The point that keeps coming up is that if all the heavy users switch to BT infinity, then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy!

I understand that smaller ISP's may have similar restrictions, but they aren't dragging in the heavy users as intentionally as BT with their "all you can eat" marketing

Now if they can show the figures as to the extra capacity they are implementing to satisfy that demand, it might instil some confidence in the discerning prospective customer.

Perhaps someone could advise on the formula that is used for network capacity per customer and whether that is higher or lower for the smaller "niche" providers?

And can they provide an equal or better service to the bigger ISP's by picking their customers more wisely?

Would be interesting.

Edited by mrnelster (Mon 07-Mar-11 19:57:31)

>>I understand that smaller ISP's may have similar restrictions

Perhaps one of the fans of alternative services could let the forum know how much 240gig and 600gig quoted in the thread on these 'smaller isps' will cost?

Infinity is a 'no brainer' for the majority of punters on the Openreach platform. .

As recommended by ThinkBroadband referral agent, Xilo / Uno - "No one is able to match or come close to what BT are offering"

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-Mar-11 22:23:48)

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

As recommended by ThinkBroadband referral agent, Xilo / Uno - "No one is able to match or come close to what BT are offering"

Just to add the rest of what he said:

It has been done deliberately to convert customers back for them, even if it is a loss-leading product in the short term.

So when people joining now start getting well into their 18-month contracts... who knows?

Lmao! That's not a recommendation. I remember reading that and believe it was a response to someone who was knocking another smaller service providers package.

I would be very surprised if he was "recommending" a service other than his own! Great headline though.

It's not about usage limits, it's about capacity. I'd like to hear some facts on that, but it doesn't seem that anybody has got the nerve to stick their head above the parapit at the moment?

Thanks for the reminder, Bill.

Many small providers and referral agents are charging way more than Infinity and locking in to long contracts

I am still waiting to hear how much the 240 and 600gig referenced in the thread will cost per month on alternative providerrs.

When we hear the prices we can times by the 12 and 18 month contracts and we will be able to see the whole life costs of the services.

My hunch is that xilo was right - nobody can match or come close to Infinity.

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-Mar-11 22:57:58)

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

Many small providers and referral agents are charging way more than Infinity and locking in to long contracts

I am still waiting to hear how much the 240 and 600gig referenced in the thread will cost per month.

I'm wondering how much BT would charge an ISP who wanted to provide a 300GB/month FTTC product for their customers, all usable during peak hours...

Edited by billford (Mon 07-Mar-11 23:08:01)

Perhaps when we hear how much 240 and 600gig referenced in this thread would cost on alternative providers we can come to a judgement.

My opinion is that punters are looking for the best deal for their hard earned.

This is not about charity, It's about the best available deal punters can get for their hard earned.

Referral agent, Xilo is very clear, Infinity is the best deal out there at the moment.

Once Sky and TalkTalk come to the party, things could change.

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

My opinion is that punters are looking for the best deal for their hard earned.

This is not about charity, It's about the best available deal punters can get for their hard earned.

Referral agent, Xilo is very clear, Infinity is the best deal out there at the moment.

I agree completely. But you said it- at the moment.

A big difference is that an IPStream ISP has a legal contract with BT for them to provide a certain amount of bandwidth, for which BT charge full rate, as any business would.

The rapidly increasing number of Infinity customers have to share whatever bandwidth is left over, and are stuck in a long contract... what's the logical outlook for the two sets of customers?


edit to add: Actually, I've just realised- that's probably why the fibre cabinet enablement dates keep getting put back.

Edited by billford (Mon 07-Mar-11 23:32:05)

This is not about charity, It's about the best available deal punters can get for their hard earned.

That's right. But does the best possible deal take into account the service and performance you might expect?

To me that means capacity vs throughput vs latency.

Xilo were referring purely to the cost.

The logical outcome is that Infinity hoover up the punters whilst Sky and TalkTalk dither and Virgin compete.

There will always be room for small high priced providers but they will remain small high priced providers.

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

The logical outcome is that Infinity hoover up the punters whilst Sky and TalkTalk dither and Virgin compete.

You're evading the point- where does the bandwidth come from for all those Infinity punters on 40Mbps (possibly 60Mbps later) connections?

There will always be room for small high priced providers but they will remain small high priced providers.

Missing the point again- they have to pay the rates that BT charge for providing the adequate bandwidth that BT will simply allow to get congested for Infinity.

Indeed. There are tens of thousands of FTTC punters out there. The overwhelming majority are on Infinity and I am yet to see any significant reports in the ISP Unhappiness forum from any provider.

I have noted some punters who are paying well over the odds trying to justify their extravagance though.

going by what BT charge and Aquiss charge per month
Aquiss is only 30p a day more which is only the price of a daily newspaper
so not too bad at all .

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

I am yet to see any significant reports in the ISP Unhappiness forum from any provider.

Look a liitle further.

BT only just scrape in above TalkTalk, and they don't yet have to provide all that extra bandwidth that Infinity customers will be wanting.

Edited by billford (Mon 07-Mar-11 23:59:02)

Thanks. Now we are getting down to the LSD. Thirty pence per day sounds uncompetitive but it is a start. I presume it includes the 240 and 600gig referenced in the thread any time of day?

Sorry, Bill, your link dunno work. Have you gone over your allowance?

So we are clear, what is your allowance and how much does it cost?

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-Mar-11 23:55:02)

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

Sorry, Bill, your link dunno work.

Sorry, I'm using IPv6 for that page, something I can't do with BT.

Corrected.

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

the 240 and 600gig referenced in the thread

Ermm... where?

edit- Never mind, I thought you were referring to the Aquiss thread.

Edited by billford (Tue 08-Mar-11 00:02:08)

Your link still doesn't work. How much this thing that nobody of note can see costing for 240 and 600gig anytime usage?

Edited by deleted (Tue 08-Mar-11 00:04:19)

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

I am still waiting to hear how much the 240 and 600gig referenced in the thread will cost per month on alternative providerrs.

When you tell us how much BT will charge those other providers, we can easily compute a minimum figure.

Bit embarrassed about it, are you?

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

Your link still doesn't work.

Try clicking it again, you're probably caught up in one of BT's caches.

Clearly punters paying well over the odds are embarrassed to tell us how much they are paying over the odds so punters can make like for like comparisons on what gives best bang for buck over the 12 and 18 month contracts.

My final thoughts reinforced on this post.

BT Infinity is the best deal on FTTC out there. Sky and TalkTalk will come and Virgin are already there. Down the road these guys will be the most competitive. Right now BT are ahead with a compelling offering.

Small providers offer less usage for more money and will remain small. Very small referral agents will market on the forums. There is room for them. Punters on them will try to justify why they are paying over the odds with ever increasingly obscure reasons.

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

Small providers offer less usage for more money and will remain small.

Of course they will, and I've already answered the question as to why their prices have to be high- they need to make a profit on top of what BT charge them.

You, on the other hand, haven't answered a single question that you've been asked.

You, on the other hand, haven't answered a single question that you've been asked.

That's because when something sounds too good to be true?

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

The logical outcome is that Infinity hoover up the punters whilst Sky and TalkTalk dither and Virgin compete.

There will always be room for small high priced providers but they will remain small high priced providers.

hoovering punters up doesnt mean much if there is no profit tho. Price is too low to be viable long term. If you say no problem the price will go up later, then these same punters could well leave.

Also many LLU areas arent even getting FTTC, so sky arent suddenly going to lose customers everywhere, FTTC rollout so far is missing lots of LLU areas and enabling some non LLU areas. So is not a full overlap.

Small providers offer less usage for more money and will remain small

no harm in that, we like our one shop local butcher the meat's better.

Does BT infinity meter uploads ?

In reply to a post by yarwell:

Does BT infinity meter uploads ?

Yes:

The total amount of data you send and receive each month is your total monthly usage

My bold.

Uploading at 8mbps constantly would come to 2.5TB/month so quite alot over the 300GB limit BT have for uploads and downloads.

I just chose 8mbps as it's 10mbps minus the 2mbps BT still allow you after 300GB.

An upload speed of 8Mbps is about what you'll get on a 10Mbps connection.

The Infinity base packages are only 2Mbps upload in the first place, so 24/7 uploading will still take you over the 300GB limit.

Hi Bill,

Forgot it doesn't actually run at 10mbps, I was just making a quick comparison for people who do alot of uploading as it's mostly not metered on ADSL connections (BT being the notable exception).

there's a lot of upstream metering about, beware with generalisations !

You beat me to it

I'll admit I haven't studied it deeply, but I'd guess that unmetered uploads are the less common.

I did say mostly

Off the top of my head of ISP's I'm familiar with:
Zen don't
AA don't
Sky don't
TT don't
IDnet don't
O2/BE don't
------------------------------------------------
VM sort of do although it's not a true cap
BT do

So it was a generalisation but I think alot less meter upstream than they do on the downstream!

Just leaving this here.

In reply to a post by orly:

Just leaving this here.

This sounds very promising, the 300GB limit was the only thing that slightly put me off BT Infinity, I am probably under it every month but it's nice not to have to keep checking.

The fact they are removing the FUP seems to indicate they are confident they have plenty of bandwidth going into the future, which is one thing some people seem to doubt about BT Infinity. If there were any doubts then I'm sure BT wouldn't be scrapping the 300GB limit. (There was no need to, even at 300GB it was still a lot more than any other FTTC provider for the price).

Throttling P2P at peak times becomes less of an issue, you can now download overnight without any usage limits.

Entanet and Plusnet do

That does make a difference, though I am still reluctant to consider BT as I was a customer of BT broadband several years ago (back in the days of fixed 512K, 1Mb and 2Mb connections). The BB was fine, however c/s left much to be desired.

I left when BT said that I could not have 2Mb as my line could not support it, they had a 'computer says no' attitude and would not progress the order. I then moved to another provider who then spoke to BT (wholesale) and I got my 2Mb (connection was rock solid) as usual BTs data on my line was incorrect.

This is where the smaller providers are often better and prepared to do more for their customers.

which provider were you thinking of instead?

im going with aquiss buisness 45

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

im going with aquiss buisness 45

Likewise

They got 24/7 customer services?

Not according to the handbook, but they seem to answer you on the forums out of hours. I guess it's about wanting to help, not just having to?

My experience of BT's 24/7 is that after about 24 seconds you realise you are completely wasting your time, so you go to the forums anyway.

What's the difference?

have BT going to india is not my idea !

What are the hours? Genuinely interested.

Also whats more useless...India or "we're closed"?

However, we still have traffic management policies that will restrict certain applications / protocols, such as P2P, when the network is busy.

USENET
BitTorrent
HTTP

You name it, they'll throttle it.

I too was considering Aquiss' business 45 package. Their peak usage hours 8am - 8pm fit quite well as for most of that time I am at work.

However BT Infinity is a good deal. I like static IPs but that can be worked around. Do they throttle or shape newsgroups? I do not care about p2p as I rarely use it. I do occasionally do large downloads (largest was 72GB over 15 hours and it was legal too).

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

However, we still have traffic management policies that will restrict certain applications / protocols, such as P2P, when the network is busy.

USENET
BitTorrent
HTTP

You name it, they'll throttle it.

Troll.

And a liar too. Well done!

were closed !
and you know we will get sorted first thing rather than a bad experience from a foreign customer service so when you phone up to track staus its all wrong ! [censored] they hadnt even heard of bt infinity at one point ! your such a fan boy of BT promoting them Like , Leaving links and being an [censored] on post in all the forum becuase you dont want to except people have different preferences other than BT GROW UP !

You probably work for them fire fighting bad experiences

You're ignorant beyond belief.

they do throttle peer to peer in peak but i would of thought news groups would not be effected so only people on BT would be able to give u a good answer on that

Newsgroups run nicely for me.

Any indication of the hardware cost as it doesn't seem to be included in the price. If it turns out pricey, you're in Infinity for Business Option 1 territory. On 12 month deal it's 42 quid a month with the hardware/install included. Only 2Mbit upload but it is unlimited all the time it seems.

That Aquiss option is decently placed overall. Doesn't quite compete the standard Option 2 Infinity though.

Really?

You're the one posting lies. You aren't even on BT Infinity yet use "we".

Yes, BT were lying about traffic management in the forum post. I don't need to use a product to know about it as there are plenty of others who are willing to act as guinea pigs.

This is nothing more than a marketing stunt.

I see...so you, as a Zen user, are the authority on when BT is "lying". I, as an actual user, am the ignorant one?

Er. ok.

Go read the post for yourself, fangirl.

Someone hiding as anonymous?

Your post contains no information and you're clearly raging about something. So much so, that you can't even write a coherent post.

My posts tend to contain facts. Feel free to go through them and check.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

Go read the post for yourself, fangirl.

Have done. Stick to posting your usual dribble.

Plenty of classics in the rest of the thread referenced.

Notice the part about the traffic management?

You always shy away from facts, especially when they're semi-technical. You're a clueless cheapskate fangirl expecting a leased line service from his £25 shaped FTTC. =)

fact !

orly = BT Kiss a33 You could just right 1 post instead of BT this BT That and flaming peoples Posts about other ISP i started the Thread and you took it down a argumentive Path taking it awayfrom the original post. I was intrested in BT until you got involved ! and decided to listen to other members

For all who read this

ORLY is a love child of BT god help him if he leaves !

Please dont take his posts as definate as he will try and put you off looking at other ISP and slate others posts experience or even recommendations (very on sided for but as you sig say BT FOREVER)

The reason i have flamed You is due to yourself be a contracending little twit to other users !

Never noticed it being applied to HTTP and newsgroup traffic like you suggest. But what do I know...I only use the service.

How are you so privy to these "technical facts" when you use a totally different ISP? Still waiting on you to divulge how much it's costing you by the way. Should be an interesting one.

Keep the insults coming though. Makes you look cool.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

fact !

orly = BT Kiss a33 You could just right 1 post instead of BT this BT That and flaming peoples Posts about other ISP i started the Thread and you took it down a argumentive Path taking it awayfrom the original post. I was intrested in BT until you got involved ! and decided to listen to other members

For all who read this

ORLY is a love child of BT god help him if he leaves !

Please dont take his posts as definate as he will try and put you off looking at other ISP and slate others posts experience or even recommendations (very on sided for but as you sig say BT FOREVER)

The reason i have flamed You is due to yourself be a contracending little twit to other users !

Debate the actual facts then. Take your pick. Happy to go through it with you step by step, point by point.

Or just sit there anonymously making moronic, semi-literate, non-sensical posts.

Of course it will be applied to HTTP as there is no way they can support thousands of 40Mb/s abusing the service. We already see this with the BT ADSL service.

Like any enthusiast, I do my homework before I join a new ISP.

Why are you so obsessed with the cost? Are you on the dole? The state of broadband in this country would be much better if we were all still paying £50 like the early days of ADSL.

Cost is just one factor.

You can also take into consideration the free activation, free hardware, 24/7 phone number, usage allowances and actual knowledge of using the service for 9 months and the normal ADSL service for several years prior to that. Infinity has been essentially flawless thus far and the ADSL service was for many years until, as luck would have it, the few weeks before our FTTC install when it was pants. (caution, link shows real fanboy behaviour!)

Homework well and truly done in my case. Seems you've done more though. Care to divulge a) How many infinity users there are. b) How many are connected at 40Mbit/s. c) How many are "abusing" it. By abuse I assume you mean anyone using it in between all the magical throttling you like to mention

Fact is there is no enthusiast in you. Anyone taking a look through your posts can see numerous instances where you just show up in threads related to BT, or in the BT forum itself, just to troll and post useless comments. It's there for anyone to see.

Edited by orly (Tue 08-Mar-11 21:09:10)

Aquiss don't supply a router, though I think they have a couple they recommend, I already have an Apple Airport Extreme so I don't need another router. I may end up going to Infinity purely on the cost. It is only around 7 quid more than I pay Be, whereas Aquiss are just over double so getting a bit hard to justify it really. Even if I go to infinity i would use the Airport Extreme in preference to the home hub .

i c 1 just you !

The Hub isn't the best. It's not shocking but does have the tendency to fall over every so often and needing rebooted. Haven't used an airport extreme but the "express" which seems to be little more than a wireless repeater.

Luckily the openreach modem seems to be a work horse. Would be nice if you could get into it though to play around with the settings/figures.

How is it sustainable without traffic shaping?

Why do businesses spend thousands on leased lines?

You know nothing.

The Hub isn't the best. It's not shocking but does have the tendency to fall over every so often and needing rebooted.

I have never really had a problem with my HH2. My brother has just got one and it needs rebooting if you stop using it for more than 10-15mins!!

He blamed it on the 10 day line training but I think it's kafucked!

Ive heard about it being unreliable for some. Is that one if the common problems?

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

However, we still have traffic management policies that will restrict certain applications / protocols, such as P2P, when the network is busy.

USENET
BitTorrent
HTTP

You name it, they'll throttle it.

Do you have any evidence that BT throttle newsgroups and HTTP on Infinity? From everything I've read they only throttle P2P at peak times. Doesn't seem like a problem to me if you can use SSL newsgroups at full speed all the time or leave your P2P downloads to run overnight on an uncapped connection.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

How is it sustainable without traffic shaping?

Why do businesses spend thousands on leased lines?

You know nothing.

How do you equate that statement with your own ISP? Are you paying thousands or is it unsustainable over at Zen?

Please answer the questions posed in the other post. You seem pretty sure of yourself so give us the answers.

Edited by orly (Tue 08-Mar-11 22:56:46)

In reply to a post by orly:

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

How is it sustainable without traffic shaping?

Why do businesses spend thousands on leased lines?

You know nothing.

Seems to me BT maybe operating on the 'stack em high sell em cheap' principle.

It works for Tesco in their market and no doubt works for others as well.

Prices may rise in the future but I'm sure BT recognise the risk of alienating a carefully built up market.

Truth is all the other providers offering FTTC can't possibly compete with this strategy at the moment, and that is why they are charging far more than BT.

So the reason that BT are cheaper than Zen for example is not because BT are cutting corners but because they can absorb the short term losses and end up with a far bigger user base which in itself will lead to higher profits in the long run.

I have to say your objections to "Infinity" seem to me to be based on nothing more than conjecture and for some reason an antagonism towards BT's fiber offering which has no basis in fact (at the moment)


Bryan.

Edited by deleted (Tue 08-Mar-11 23:30:33)

Post deleted by Sadoldman

In reply to a post by TheHorseman:

Aquiss don't supply a router, though I think they have a couple they recommend, I already have an Apple Airport Extreme so I don't need another router. I may end up going to Infinity purely on the cost. It is only around 7 quid more than I pay Be, whereas Aquiss are just over double so getting a bit hard to justify it really. Even if I go to infinity i would use the Airport Extreme in preference to the home hub .

I'm sorry to hear that your swaying towards BT Infinity.They do indeed have a very competitive market position in the retail sector. I'm sure that if we were competing like for like (lower entry products), then our products would be inline, however we do aim at slightly different sectors. Our customers rightly expect high standards which they feel they can get from ourselves.

It's quite correct we don't provide a router, however in the vast majority of cases (we have only had 1 exception) customers have current ADSL2+ routers than can be flipped into PPPoE, thus the requirement of another router tends not to be required.

I do think you could have chosen a different metaphor to have made your point.................one that would not have needed censor avoidance.

Fair cop!

it has now been announced that the 300gb fup has now been taken away, it is now unlimited, they no longer slow your connection at 300gb limit.

but they do traffic shape until mid night unless you use other sources such at newsgroups may be unlimited usuage but not very flexiable with its users

In reply to a post by nalla:

it has now been announced that the 300gb fup has now been taken away, it is now unlimited, they no longer slow your connection at 300gb limit.

I thought that wasn't till April, and even then on a rollout basis? Or is yours new news? If so, have you a link please?

yeah sorry it happens in april but thats only 2 weeks away, it was posted on the thinkbroadband main page that all option 2 users will not see there speed reduced due to the 300gb limit, even if they do traffic shape it dosent make too much difference as people i know dont see much of a reduction during peak hours which could just be peak traffic anyway, newsgroups do max out i believe too, makes bt by far the best option for heavy users.

Know of a more flexible ISP for 25 quid a month?

Hrmm, that's one of the two stumbling blocks I had against BT Infinity. My next question would be as the only provider *NOT* offering a static IP, is it actually likely to change once you get an IP allocated.

I host a couple of small websites and my own mail server so I'd rather not play chase the IP, or fiddle with dynamic DNS services.

Regards,
TH.

In reply to a post by Trojan_Hussar:

Hrmm, that's one of the two stumbling blocks I had against BT Infinity. My next question would be as the only provider *NOT* offering a static IP, is it actually likely to change once you get an IP allocated.

I host a couple of small websites and my own mail server so I'd rather not play chase the IP, or fiddle with dynamic DNS services.

Regards,
TH.

The business versions have static IPs. Whether you like the prices depends on your other choices.

http://business.bt.com/broadband-and-internet/intern...

In reply to a post by orly:

In reply to a post by Trojan_Hussar:

Hrmm, that's one of the two stumbling blocks I had against BT Infinity. My next question would be as the only provider *NOT* offering a static IP, is it actually likely to change once you get an IP allocated.

I host a couple of small websites and my own mail server so I'd rather not play chase the IP, or fiddle with dynamic DNS services.

Regards,
TH.

The business versions have static IPs. Whether you like the prices depends on your other choices.


http://business.bt.com/broadband-and-internet/intern...

Ouch, I'm paying £19.78 a month at the moment. Seriously wondering whether to lay off FTTC for a while and go over to Entanet's unlimited LLU package when C&W unbundle my local exchange. That only costs £19.99/month and is unmetered. I'm getting 12Mbps at the moment and the speed isn't too much of an issue although the extra upload speed would be nice. It's on a 1 month rolling contract so if BT Infinity isn't throttled to death and chock full of leechers I could change over in future.

Well, as my exchange has now been put back to 30th June and C&W are allegedly unbundling my exchange at the end of May it's all moot until then anyway...

Regards,
TH.

Post deleted by RobertoS

In reply to a post by Trojan_Hussar:

Seriously wondering whether to lay off FTTC for a while and go over to Entanet's unlimited LLU package when C&W unbundle my local exchange. That only costs £19.99/month and is unmetered.

????
Entanet is a BT Wholesale reseller, apart from a few residual business line bonding exchanges it seems. Nothing to do with C & W.

If you mean ADSL24's C & W offerings, then neither has ADSL24 been an Entanet reseller for something like a year. (Unless it is two years?)

The business packages are both "unlimited" (as far as i know) so there is no 40GB cap.

Option 1 business, "unlimited" with a static IP and 12 month contract (free install and equipment) comes to £42/month including VAT. This compares quite favourably with a lot of other ISPs residential options.

Ooops!

Mis-read the web page. Post deleted .

i dont think there are any ips's for £25 per month, espescially if you use more than 40gb per month,

BT option 2 is 25.60 and it's a lot more than 40GB a month

Complete list https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AquiMM6uTUU...