Sky Fibre installation gone totally wrong

Two weeks ago I ordered Sky Fibre. For the past week I've been getting a text message a day reminding me to "be here" for the installation of my phone line and broadband.

Today, the engineer came by, said he "couldn't find my line" and left with a "sorry".

My initial understanding was that he "doesn't have authorisation to go in the ducts", because, for whatever reason the line was not active. He said "somebody may show up later today to check it out". Which was so vague and infuriating. I didn't know what else to tell him to make him stay and figure it out. No element of persuasion worked. All I got was "I have other jobs to attend to, people are waiting". Well, I was and am waiting. He couldn't even leave the modem with me, so what, now I have to wait two weeks for another one of these lazy imbeciles to come along and do something?

Well, why couldn't he just sort this out here and now and avoid me being tortured? I have to wait for nobody knows what!

Having spoken to Sky Fibre support team, they said that a fault is reported on the line and some engineer will have to come by today or tomorrow, but not to my premises and that I don't have to be present. I'm staying just in case on the off-chance they show up.

I'm confused and angry. I've got to cancel my VM contract because it's still within the cooling off period, but I can't get Sky either because of BT Openreach screw ups? Absurd!

It's 2pm, one hour after the installation time frame and no phone or internet was installed or activated.

Edit: I have submitted a complaint for unhelpful engineer behaviour on the Openreach website.

Edited by Saltank (Wed 28-Nov-12 20:05:25)

Same happened to me
When moved here was a line installed but inactive and so could not find where was connected
Same day of installation i end up to a distributional point with in 7 meters away and direct to exchange even a cabinet was about 60 meters away
So talk to your provider don't end up like me...becarefull not that the adsl is not good but will not get fttc

Edited by deleted (Wed 28-Nov-12 15:13:18)

Why would he be loking in the cabinet for it.If the line was just inactive it just needs to be activated at the exchange in fact it is pointless an engneer coming out to your home untill the line is active and has dial tone on it

I just got an email:

We're sorry that the Openreach engineer who was due to install your Sky Talk couldn't make the agreed appointment on Wednesday, 28 November 2012 between 8am and 1pm. We'll now need to arrange another visit for you.

We'd like to pull out all the stops to get everything up and running, so please give us a call on 08442 410104 and we can arrange a new date.

Not sure what to make of this. If it's another two week wait, then they have wasted all my time and I can't live without Internet for two weeks - because the imbecile engineer was supposed to do this today, and because I have to cancel Virgin Media on friday!

Of course, "our lines are extremely busy right now" and expected wait time is over 20 minutes.
When I called them this morning it was answered almost immediately.

UPDATE:

After a 30 minute wait, I spoke to a nice lady, again, and she said that they "can't do anything" and that an update from Openreach reads a line fault and a ducting engineer (paraphrasing here) has to visit and they may have to "dig up the street".

Sounds so extreme to me. This line used to work, it just sounds like they need to flip the [censored] switch...

Edited by Saltank (Wed 28-Nov-12 17:20:18)

Sounds possible if the line hasn't been used for some time, I quite often see BT roadworks scheduled to dig up the road to repair a damaged cable. Some areas don't have any ducting, apparently in the 70's BT thought it would save money by not using ducting and just burying the cables.......

That sounds like it's not something that can be sorted out within a few days. I'll update here when something new happens.

13:00: BT Openreach engineer just showed up out of the blue. Lucky I was in. No warning or anything.
14:00: The engineer has made some progress and said the line will be working in an hour or so.
He also said that he has a modem in his van, but he needs someone from Sky to push the button so he can install it for me. I call Sky, and they tell me that they can't do that and the engineer has to call his control unit. They're telling me exact opposite things.

I would really like to get this working today, as it now seems like it's a possibility (finally). It would be really unfair if it can't get up and running just because of this bureaucratic nonsense.

16:00 The engineer has installed the phone line. He tried calling his higher ups, and, despite much persuasion he couldn't "get the job" to install the fibre, even though he is right here and was able to do it.
The engineer was a really good man set on getting the job done, and I think it a great shame that I will have to wait god knows how long for the next engineer ( or contractor) to do this installation, which could have been done if the Sky/BTO back office was running properly!

Edited by Saltank (Thu 29-Nov-12 16:08:20)

I've come to the conclusion that the lack of transparency during the ordering process which results in erroneous booking of the appointments and during the installation process itself is artificially created by BT Openreach.

Maybe everyone knows this by now, maybe not, but I've made this discovery for myself during this entire ordeal, and it makes total sense.

If life were easy, one engineer would visit the premises to install/set-up the land line and then the FTTC connection. These engineers are all qualified, with the exception of maybe some newly hired staff which are not fully certified and have been recently recruited, so they are only doing 'basic' installs. The result would be that if the appointment is met and everything is done in one visit, even if it takes a few hours, costs remain relatively fixed and predictable.
The issue that I've had would have been easily rectifiable if the engineer that visited first would have done his job, but instead considerable resources were wasted on petrol and labour for sending him from Canary Wharf to NW London, not to mention the subsequent money I've spent on phone calls and admin work they've had to do on their end and, let's not forget the people that are also waiting for that very same engineer at THEIR place, who knows or cares what happens to them?

But they did not do what they're supposed to. No, they send an incompetent person to muck around so BT Openreach gets their money. Then, they proceed to send someone who knows what they're doing, but only does half the job. Why? Because BT Openreach will get some money again for this visit. The final visit may in fact, be the very same lazy engineer that came around the first time, and this time he'll plug in the modem and switch a few wires - a bit more work for him because he "couldn't" do it the first time around.

It all makes sense now. Even if I am wrong, it all makes perfect sense. This is how they "create jobs" in a weak economy, by slapping the poor customer on the face with lame excuses of 'not being able to do this on their computer' and hope they can get away with this charade long enough to earn some money from an inefficient and clearly, fraudulent and transparency-lacking scheme.

Edited by Saltank (Thu 29-Nov-12 18:43:50)

There's probably a lot of truth in there, except for two basic mistakes.

Openreach make a fixed charge for doing an installation. So the multiple visits and extra work are costing them money.

If an engineer stays past the expected timeslot on a job, as you would desire if your were the first in the day, that's fine for you. But what if you were the poor sod who was last for the day and several earlier installations ran over time?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

There's probably a lot of truth in there, except for two basic mistakes.

Openreach make a fixed charge for doing an installation. So the multiple visits and extra work are costing them money.

If an engineer stays past the expected timeslot on a job, as you would desire if your were the first in the day, that's fine for you. But what if you were the poor sod who was last for the day and several earlier installations ran over time?

If Openreach receive funding other than from call out fees, for example EU/Government, it can be argued that it's very poorly spent!
I've had the short end of the stick for engineer visits many, many times over the years. They all complain, but those that complain the most are the best workers. The ones that don't do anything, don't say anything...

I just got an email:

Please see below the new appointment time for an Openreach engineer visit to install your new Sky services.
07/01/2013 -
08.00 to 13.00

This is some sort of sick joke. I'm on the phone with Sky again right now.
I feel like Ace Ventura with two arrows in his legs, constantly screaming at the pain!


My Quickmeme of this situation.


Update:

I've just had a call back from Sky and they seem like they have no clue what is going on. They will be calling back on Monday if there's an update from BT Openreach. Here's an excerpt of the notes they've read to me "It looks like there's a fault at the exchange on the equipment, and they're waiting for an underground engineer to fix the fault before the installation to go ahead". This probably actually refers to the first few notes when they had trouble activating my land line... Now that it's fixed? Everyone is clueless.

"They've advised is that they're currently trying to get in contact with the engineers that are dealing with the enquiry for you. And they've asked me to phone them back on Monday for more of an update to see what's going on. They're going to update all the notes on the job and see why it;s been pushed out so far to see if there's anything they can do. There's not a guarantee that they can do but they'll do their very best."

Edited by Saltank (Fri 30-Nov-12 14:42:06)

yeah thats poor, good luck with getting a sane date.

I would be interested in install success stats and average waiting times.

In reply to a post by Saltank:

If Openreach receive funding other than from call out fees, for example EU/Government, it can be argued that it's very poorly spent!

But they don't. The service they provide to SKY (and through them to you) is totally a private venture.

The root of the problem is the split of BT into several operations so that CPs (SKY, TT et al) can access services on an equal footing with BT retail / BT wholesale. This was mandated by the regular some years ago. Of course this doesnt work - what might have been better would have to truly split BB provision away from BT retail or to retain the monopoly.

However the only thing worse than the status quo is whatever replaces it!

EDIT: Forgot to point out that OR do have an expedited install procedure that SKY should arrange for you but this really depends on whether your line fault is fixed and you are simply waiting for FTTC install now?

Edited by greenglide (Fri 30-Nov-12 15:48:31)

The only time BB provision comes into the BT Retail realm is if you order a BT Total product.

TalkTalk and Sky talk to Openreach mainly.

NOTE: A new MBORC has been issued

In reply to a post by greenglide:

In reply to a post by Saltank:

If Openreach receive funding other than from call out fees, for example EU/Government, it can be argued that it's very poorly spent!

But they don't. The service they provide to SKY (and through them to you) is totally a private venture.

The root of the problem is the split of BT into several operations so that CPs (SKY, TT et al) can access services on an equal footing with BT retail / BT wholesale. This was mandated by the regular some years ago. Of course this doesnt work - what might have been better would have to truly split BB provision away from BT retail or to retain the monopoly.

However the only thing worse than the status quo is whatever replaces it!

EDIT: Forgot to point out that OR do have an expedited install procedure that SKY should arrange for you but this really depends on whether your line fault is fixed and you are simply waiting for FTTC install now?

Any change in BTOR structure would probably cause even more chaos than now.

Honestly, the engineer that was here yesterday installing the phone line, said he can do it right there and then. There is no fault, it's probably Sky not making sense of engineer notes and giving me outdated information today.
I jut don't understand why the people at Sky can't get someone out right now. They did yesterday, so why not now? I'm very frustrated.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The only time BB provision comes into the BT Retail realm is if you order a BT Total product.

TalkTalk and Sky talk to Openreach mainly.

NOTE: A new MBORC has been issued

How should this impact me if I am in London. It really shouldn't, if the engineer on Wednesday came from Canary Wharf, they can send him again!

Because sometimes engineers are re-deployed to other areas to try and fix problems if there are major outages.

So while your engineer might still be in London, he will probably be fixing/installing in cases where people have paid the extra for premium service. These options are available to all the providers, just none of them offer these to consumers (including BT Retail), they tend to be reserved for business type services.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Because sometimes engineers are re-deployed to other areas to try and fix problems if there are major outages.

So while your engineer might still be in London, he will probably be fixing/installing in cases where people have paid the extra for premium service. These options are available to all the providers, just none of them offer these to consumers (including BT Retail), they tend to be reserved for business type services.

Yes yes, I understand that. I just don't know how to begin to express that this is all so, stupid.

I think aaisp offers it?

MrSaffron question, why is it called sim provide when the FTTC and line install are still seperate?

My line done some days ago, still no FTTC.

Slightly different news, but still related!
I've recently made upgraded with IDNet business for the office which is nearby (from 38/8) and the upgrade recently took place - it's all working great!
Here's a speedtest

I also noticed that IPv6 is finally working and the Thinkbroadband IPv6 page was overwhelmed with joy to see this.

Edited by Saltank (Sat 01-Dec-12 18:44:23)

I've got some positive news. It's not the deal maker I was hoping for, but they've moved my installation forward to Friday 14th December in the AM. Props go out to the Fibre support team for making an effort to combat their ineffective communications platform with BT Openreach.

Sky aren't all that bad afterall! I hope it goes well for you this time. I find the fibre team to be really helpful (once you get through to them).

I've had the fibre connection since early March and it's been flawless apart from a line fault (which wasn't anybodies fault and would have occurred on any ISP).

The exact same thing happened to us. Sub contractor called to the house and couldn't find the line, saying it could be burried under rubble, I thought what a load of [censored], my dad then says it could be possible as this new estate at the time, the houses were threw together they couldn't get them up fast enough at the time of the boom. The same engineer who first visited also said that the face plate that was fitted one asdl one telephone had to be removed as it slowed the internet speed, have you ever heard the likes of it?haha.

So a few days later a proper Bt engineer showed up, old school, well experienced chap who explained the situation, I told him about the face plate and he couldn't understand what the other guy was on about lol. Well he connected some signal device and went outside to look for the line that was apparently burried. He got out this wire tracer from his van and walked up the street a bit and found the junction box that the line was connected to, he came back and must have went to the exchange or cabinet and that was it. Was sorted all within an hour!

So maybe the same thing will happen to you, and things will be sorted by a proper engineer, not one of these half arsed engineers who couldn't really care less.

Regards
Donal.

I had a bad feeling about today, I knew I should have called sooner but I had an emergency to deal with... so.. here's what's happening:

I am waiting for the OR engineer all day, and it's 12:00 now, only 1 hour left for them to get here. I call Sky just to make sure that they're on their way, but I get bad news, yet again.

They inform me, that the previous lady who sent me an installation confirmation misread the notes and told me that I am getting it installed today, when in fact, it is just some sort of provisional date for OR to check my line, or whatever... I don't fully understand the reasoning.
They said that Sky still thinks my line isn't working because they didn't get an update from OR. I told them that OF COURSE they knew, I told the Sky Fibre team representatives two days in a row that it's working now, how could they not know?!?!

So now I wasted two weeks waiting for nothing, because neither side was doing anything and I may be without internet for all the holiday season. Merry XMas?

demand an expidited install even if its at their expense.

expidited if pushed for will be within a few days.

Sky will claim it is not possible or there is no such thing.

I did say I want an expedited install, because of several underlying issues (the fact that it was originally supposed to be installed on the 28th being not only one!) and I suspect after I repeat my reasons several times they'll understand it's becoming urgent. VM is pulling the plug (after intense negotiations) today and the prospect of not having internet at home will not only be stressful but will cut me off from my family, who rely on me to communicate with them and it's actually a matter of medical urgency now, so I really do hope Sky sees some sense and gets this done asap.

Broadband is as essential now as gas and electricity, and not being able to supply such a rather basic thing (and come on, we know it's easy once they get around to it) in over 3 weeks is dire indeed.

I was told it will "take 24 hours for BT OR to return to us after we update the notes asking for confirmation that the line is working". So, Sky will only look at the calendar on Monday at the earlier to book the installation engineer if BTOR replies with a "yes the line is working" on their extremely crummy IT system.

In reply to a post by Saltank:

it's actually a matter of medical urgency now, so I really do hope Sky sees some sense and gets this done asap.

Broadband is as essential now as gas and electricity, and not being able to supply such a rather basic thing (and come on, we know it's easy once they get around to it) in over 3 weeks is dire indeed.

I am afraid that you cannot rely on BB connections for any "basic needs" as it is not provided as a critical service (we do not pay for it as that) and we do not pay for that level of service.

If you want that level of cover you should really be on a business tariff with covering SLAs. You can get 24 hour repairs etc.

Alternately you could use a 3G connexion as back up if you have coverage.

You rarely get what you don't pay for ............

In reply to a post by greenglide:

In reply to a post by Saltank:

it's actually a matter of medical urgency now, so I really do hope Sky sees some sense and gets this done asap.

Broadband is as essential now as gas and electricity, and not being able to supply such a rather basic thing (and come on, we know it's easy once they get around to it) in over 3 weeks is dire indeed.

I am afraid that you cannot rely on BB connections for any "basic needs" as it is not provided as a critical service (we do not pay for it as that) and we do not pay for that level of service.

If you want that level of cover you should really be on a business tariff with covering SLAs. You can get 24 hour repairs etc.

Alternately you could use a 3G connexion as back up if you have coverage.

You rarely get what you don't pay for ............

They took my £50 without hesitation. At this point, I would not mind paying another £50 if they can just hurry up and get it done already.

They might have taken your money, but you've still only ordered a residential product, at residential prices, with residential SLA's.

If you have a true need to *never* be out of touch, you need to plan for it, and expect to pay for it. Backup connections would be part of the plan (2nd phone lines, 2nd modems or routers with dual WANs, or a 3G PAYG dongle). Paying for better SLA responses would be part of the plan too.

Similarly, any plan to change provider would have to be done expecting a failure at some point - or at least allowing for it. That would require you to plan, perhaps, to install a second line temporarily, or have a 3G backup available.

If you aren't willing to pay the extra that is necessary to guarantee availability (and your £50 hasn't bought that), then you have to accept the risk that things can go wrong, and will stay wrong for as long as a domestic SLA allows.

In reply to a post by Saltank:

I did say I want an expedited install, because of several underlying issues (the fact that it was originally supposed to be installed on the 28th being not only one!) and I suspect after I repeat my reasons several times they'll understand it's becoming urgent. VM is pulling the plug (after intense negotiations) today and the prospect of not having internet at home will not only be stressful but will cut me off from my family, who rely on me to communicate with them and it's actually a matter of medical urgency now, so I really do hope Sky sees some sense and gets this done asap.

Broadband is as essential now as gas and electricity, and not being able to supply such a rather basic thing (and come on, we know it's easy once they get around to it) in over 3 weeks is dire indeed.

I was told it will "take 24 hours for BT OR to return to us after we update the notes asking for confirmation that the line is working". So, Sky will only look at the calendar on Monday at the earlier to book the installation engineer if BTOR replies with a "yes the line is working" on their extremely crummy IT system.

Why are you even bothering to waste any more time with these clowns?

Place an order to get the voice side of the line transferred to BT or better yet Primus Telecom and place a FTTC order with someone who knows how to do their job.

You've made it clear how reliant you are on your internet connection. If it is a critical service Sky are absolutely and totally not the correct ISP for you. I've been with them twice in the past and both times were the most excruciatingly painful experiences with an ISP I've ever had the displeasure of having.

Things will go wrong with your internet connection in the future.

Sky won't know how to fix it.

You will pull your hair and teeth out and bang your head against a brick wall to the point of injury.

Go with a decent ISP like ADSL 24 or IDNet. Yes, it's 2-3 times the price.

It's worth it.

Cancel the Sky DD with your bank and raise a formal written complaint.

If my experiences are anything to go the complaint will be ignored and you'll need to take it to OTELO.

Sky don't report to credit reference agencies so don't get intimidated by red letters whilst you wait for OTELO to resolve the complaint and get the account closed fee free.

Edited by deleted (Sat 15-Dec-12 09:38:29)

Otelo is now Ombudsman Services. Note, (as always with them and CICAS), the need for a deadlock letter or eight weeks following an impasse before they can intervene.

Sky don't report to credit reference agencies ....

?
I find that hard to believe. Do they state this in some legally binding format? Do they instead refer payment defaulters to debt-collection agencies, who do? Do they take payment defaulters to court, with the risk of costs and a CCJ?

Edit - I see you've added rather a lot while I was typing my queries .

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 15-Dec-12 09:48:48)

In reply to a post by MHC:

Sky will claim it is not possible or there is no such thing.

Sky are pretty good at that kind of thing, its usually BT that deny all knowledge.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

They might have taken your money, but you've still only ordered a residential product, at residential prices, with residential SLA's.

If you have a true need to *never* be out of touch, you need to plan for it, and expect to pay for it. Backup connections would be part of the plan (2nd phone lines, 2nd modems or routers with dual WANs, or a 3G PAYG dongle). Paying for better SLA responses would be part of the plan too.

Similarly, any plan to change provider would have to be done expecting a failure at some point - or at least allowing for it. That would require you to plan, perhaps, to install a second line temporarily, or have a 3G backup available.

If you aren't willing to pay the extra that is necessary to guarantee availability (and your £50 hasn't bought that), then you have to accept the risk that things can go wrong, and will stay wrong for as long as a domestic SLA allows.

I did have my back up, which I managed to cancel through much pain and suffering (VM 100Mbit which wasn't fit for purpose was shut off last night)!

I'm in a bind because I don't know what will happen if I cancel this Sky Fibre order and try to go with another provider, if it gets pushed back even further than 7th January it will make matters even worse. So as I see it I'm kind of stuck with Sky?

Whilst I think there is a valid point in SLA's I do think thats not an excuse for having no standards and a cop out for openreach/isps. My view is the original installation failed and that is below the standards of what you should expect, I also have a view that any install date after an order should at the most be within 4 weeks. £50 is still not 0 so you have paid for service which failed, from where I sit your options are.

1 - stick with sky but pressure them daily for an expidited install and/or install refund.
2 - cancel, order BT and ask them for expidited if the install date is bad (I did this and ended up with quite a fast install).
3 - cancel and order with some other isp and try expidited install route.
4 - cancel and order with some other isp and just accept a normal install date, almost certianly I think this will be after your current install date.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

Whilst I think there is a valid point in SLA's I do think thats not an excuse for having no standards and a cop out for openreach/isps. My view is the original installation failed and that is below the standards of what you should expect, I also have a view that any install date after an order should at the most be within 4 weeks. £50 is still not 0 so you have paid for service which failed, from where I sit your options are.

1 - stick with sky but pressure them daily for an expidited install and/or install refund.
2 - cancel, order BT and ask them for expidited if the install date is bad (I did this and ended up with quite a fast install).
3 - cancel and order with some other isp and try expidited install route.
4 - cancel and order with some other isp and just accept a normal install date, almost certianly I think this will be after your current install date.

Thanks for making the list, it's helpful to organise it that way, as I'm still a bit too stressed to see things clearly.

I have paid £100 install and £70 excl VAT for Business Priotiy Fibre with IDNet since May 2011 at the office, and the installation troubles were still extremely unreasonable. Luckily we were able to cope, barely, with 3Mbit ADSL2+ at the time, but I wouldn't say they pulled all the stops possible to get it done soon, that's why I don't see any benefit in cancelling my current order with Sky.

I picked Sky because of unlimited downloads and no throttling, etc., which I think is very important these days as more and more ISP's impose ridiculous restrictions. The office IDNet FTTC has recently been upped to 500GB and this is fine for the work we do around here (we were always close to hitting the previous 250GB cap).
For home it may not be enough considering I'm always downloading stuff on Steam and Netflix. I think I did just over 500GB in November, but that was probably a bit too high initially as I moved in from 4Mbit DSL.

So far I am thinking first option, with some hassling of the Sky team. It is indeed very unreasonable that they failed to install on the 28th and now it's almost three weeks!

I want to know if there's a way of persuading them to send out an engineer for an emergency - they managed to do so on the 29th to get the phone line working, why can't they do the same now? I can't take no for an answer since I know it can be done. I ordered Sky Fibre on the 14th of November, so it's now been an entire month that I'm waiting!

A letter to the CEO perhaps?

Edited by Saltank (Sat 15-Dec-12 13:32:44)

I've sent you a PM - look for the flashing envelope at the top to the left of 'Forum Index', PM's are not notified to you by default - another backward feature.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

... look for the flashing envelope at the top to the left of 'Forum Index', PM's are not notified to you by default - another backward feature.

Notification by email is easily enabled in My Home though.

You really get what you pay for with Sky. Great when it works, but if there is a hiccup you are borked. I would not touch them for free.

DrT

In reply to a post by DrTeeth:

You really get what you pay for with Sky. Great when it works, but if there is a hiccup you are borked. I would not touch them for free.

DrT

I've shared the same opinion of Virgin Media up until I had to subscribe for Sky TV one year ago. I was generally pleased by their service and was hoping to get the same thing from them with regards to broadband.

Thanks for your advice, R0NSKI, fortunately I check the forum quite often to I can see PM's just fine.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Notification by email is easily enabled in My Home though.

Only when you are aware of the option, the majority of forums get you to opt in/out during the registration process, and unless I missed it when I joined here I was not aware of it until someone pointed it out, and a tiny flashing envelope doesn't actually stand out that well.

@Saltank - hope it does the trick for you, no doubt you'll update the thread.

In reply to a post by izools:

Sky don't report to credit reference agencies so don't get intimidated by red letters whilst you wait for OTELO to resolve the complaint and get the account closed fee free.

If Sky don't report to credit reference agencies I wonder why my payment history with them is on my credit report??

One thing they do if they don't receive a payment after a default notice is terminate all your services a couple of weeks later until they receive the payment. With broadband you could end up having to pay a reconnection fee as well because you may end up with an inactive line.

In reply to a post by Saltank:

I did have my back up, which I managed to cancel through much pain and suffering (VM 100Mbit which wasn't fit for purpose was shut off last night)!

Not exactly a backup if it disappeared while you were still having problems. A fit-for-purpose backup would have been one that you didn't cancel *at all* until your Sky install was up & running, and proven working. Cancelling any time before this was a risk. Cheaper, certainly, but a risk.

I don't think it is Sky's fault much. Openreach seem to playing fast & loose with dealing with end-users on installs & upgrades - and seem to get away with it with impunity. EOI seems to be a label to hide behind sometimes, while the admin/information/escalation process seems so slow & cumbersome. It is worthy of a complaint to Ofcom.

What is more important to you right now? Phone or broadband?

If it is broadband, then a PAYG mobile dongle might be a good bet, or one of the MiFi-type devices. We have one for such backup moments, but useful when travelling or on holiday.

I'm in a bind because I don't know what will happen if I cancel this Sky Fibre order and try to go with another provider, if it gets pushed back even further than 7th January it will make matters even worse. So as I see it I'm kind of stuck with Sky?

I imagine that the problem will be worse - you'll get to another ISP who'll treat you as normal, and with no leverage to get priority. Meanwhile, the real culprits (Openreach) will just put you to the back of the queue again.

And if the line is already partially done, you might find that it already has some tags on it that make cancelling difficult too.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Otelo is now Ombudsman Services. Note, (as always with them and CICAS), the need for a deadlock letter or eight weeks following an impasse before they can intervene.

Sky don't report to credit reference agencies ....

?
I find that hard to believe. Do they state this in some legally binding format? Do they instead refer payment defaulters to debt-collection agencies, who do? Do they take payment defaulters to court, with the risk of costs and a CCJ?

Edit - I see you've added rather a lot while I was typing my queries .

There is nothing in the contract between the customer and sky giving sky permission to share data with credit reference agencies. Therefore for them to do so would be illegal (breach of data protection). At least this was the count when I was with them. That was a couple of years ago now, though.

I had both the Sky accounts I've had referred to debt collection agencies whilst complaints were outstanding - for months - of course after eight weeks on each I referred them to the ombudsman.

There will be little doubt sky wont' have resolved the issues within eight weeks if my experiences are anything to go by.

Throughout all of this no data whatsoever appeared on any of my credit files with Equifax, Experian, and Call credit, despite the accounts being in hand with debt collection agencies.

Once you write to a DCA advising them that the balance is disputed and a complaint outstanding they cease action. Besides, whilst they may threaten it utility providers don't take such small balances to court. Not in my experience anyway.

Edited by deleted (Sun 16-Dec-12 16:14:54)

In reply to a post by simon194:

In reply to a post by izools:

Sky don't report to credit reference agencies so don't get intimidated by red letters whilst you wait for OTELO to resolve the complaint and get the account closed fee free.

If Sky don't report to credit reference agencies I wonder why my payment history with them is on my credit report??

One thing they do if they don't receive a payment after a default notice is terminate all your services a couple of weeks later until they receive the payment. With broadband you could end up having to pay a reconnection fee as well because you may end up with an inactive line.

Disconnection of services from Sky is irrelevant when you've transferred the services elsewhere.

When did Sky start reporting to credit reference agencies then? Have they changed their contract terms? No data relating to any of the Sky accounts I've held has ever appeared on my credit files and still doesn't to date. Are you sure it's data about your Sky account?

Besides, reporting a balance that is under dispute to a credit reference agency is a breach of data protection and tantamount to defamation of character.

I had VM erroneously report a default on my credit file for an account I had to dispute and this was, after settlement of my formal written complaint, expunged in its entirety and they gave me £250 for the trouble.

In reply to a post by izools:

In reply to a post by Saltank:

Read a lot of the feedback/complaints on here about installing "Infinity", and it has cemented by decision to switch back to BT for my phone a couple of years ago, then not long after ...... Broadband as well. So when I got the message a couple of weeks ago that we were being upgraded to BT Infinity, I was well pleased, as it was a couple of months earlier than they first indicated. Strangely enough the BT engineer made all the same noises I've read about on here, then changed tack and announced that no matter what problems he encountered, he would pull out all the stops to get me connected, and would install the Infinity box where I wanted it. I don't know if it was anything to do with that fact that I support the same football team as him
One thing threw me though, as I now have my existing black hub sitting on top of a new cream coloured Infinity box, when I thought my old hub was being replaced with one new hub/box or whatever. Also, someone has really screwed up with the design of the new box, as the four named connections "phone, DSL, LAN1 & LAN2 lights" and the BT Openreach logo are upside down. To correct this you would have to have all the wires going in to the back of it trailing over the front of your desk, table, or whatever surface you have it on ..................... Doh!
Down to the nitty gritty, my download/upload readings have rocketed from:
08/12/12 01:28Sat 15874 Kbps 896 Kbps Home DSL
to:- 14/12/12 16:24 Fri 36437 Kbps 8043 Kbps Home DSL

However, the live streaming quality has not improved any where near 100%

@izools
Your experience is interesting and useful . However:-

In reply to a post by izools:

Once you write to a DCA advising them that the balance is disputed and a complaint outstanding they cease action.

isn't quite the same thing as

Sky don't report to credit reference agencies so don't get intimidated by red letters whilst you wait for OTELO to resolve the complaint and get the account closed fee free.

which is what really worried me about your advice to the poster.

Besides, whilst they may threaten it utility providers don't take such small balances to court. Not in my experience anyway.

Ummm, maybe.

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

One thing threw me though, as I now have my existing black hub sitting on top of a new cream coloured Infinity box, when I thought my old hub was being replaced with one new hub/box or whatever. Also, someone has really screwed up with the design of the new box, as the four named connections "phone, DSL, LAN1 & LAN2 lights" and the BT Openreach logo are upside down. To correct this you would have to have all the wires going in to the back of it trailing over the front of your desk, table, or whatever surface you have it on ..................... Doh!

It's primarily designed to be wall mounted, then the cables come out the bottom and the writing is the correct way up

Nor is there any such thing as an "Infinity box". (Maybe the Home Hub could be called that ). Looks like another poor person whose been misled by the BT TV adverts, and doesn't realise FTTC is available from nearly all other ISPs as well.

Just for the record, I'm neither poor or misled, I've tried most of the others and decided to keep with the ISP who provides the infrastructure - still I suppose you will pick holes in that!

But your ISP does not provide the infrastucture ! Thats done by BT Openreach who are not a ISP.

Note what btbert says. He omits to point out that in fact there is another layer between Openreach and BT Broadband. That is BT Wholesale.

Openreach provides an FTTC service, (GEA), between the premises and the exchange.

It has three customers for that service. BT Wholesale, Sky and TalkTalk. It is legally bound to provide "equivalence" of service to each. In particular, no special treatment.

BT Wholesale supplies all ISPs other than Sky and TalkTalk from its connections to GEA at the exchanges. It is legally bound to provide equivalence to these - equal treatment. So AAISP, IDNet, Entanet, Claranet, Eclipse, Plusnet, Zen and over a hundred others. Including BT (Retail).

BT Retail is if anything hampered in dealing with BTW and OR, because both of those would face of the prospect of OfCom jumping on them from a great height if they were to give preferential treatment. So they bend over backwards to make sure they don't.

Rest assured, Sky and TT will be watching very closely, and other ISPs will be watching BT Wholesale very closely.

"I've tried most of the others". Pshaw!

You are even more misinformed than was probable from your previous post, which to put it mildly has a somewhat unconventional format. Quite apart from having nothing whatsoever to do with the two posts referenced within it.

(By the way, I was and am still puzzled by "Read a lot of the feedback/complaints on here about installing "Infinity", and it has cemented by decision to switch back to BT for my phone a couple of years ago, then not long after ...... Broadband as well." The way the first part of that is written would normally point towards a desire to keep clear).

"Cream Infinity box" indeed! Have you discovered what it is yet? That you didn't even know it was to be installed, despite it being well documented, all the information I believe you get emailed to you post-order, and your reading of a lot of the feedback/complaints on here about installing "Infinity" is laughable.

Anyone for crochet?
_{Yes everybody, crochet is deliberate, not a mis-spelling nor a malapropism.}

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

"I've tried most of the others". Pshaw!

Well, he did try Orange. What more do you want?

He's the one who bought the Orange story that his total bandwidth supplied from exchange is automatically divided into two to his 2 phone sockets .

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sun 16-Dec-12 23:03:44)

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Notification by email is easily enabled in My Home though.

Only when you are aware of the option, the majority of forums get you to opt in/out during the registration process, and unless I missed it when I joined here I was not aware of it until someone pointed it out, and a tiny flashing envelope doesn't actually stand out that well.

@Saltank - hope it does the trick for you, no doubt you'll update the thread.

BT's CEO booted me back to Sky, aka - back to square one. I guess it was too cocky for me to expect the same kind of treatment I got from VM's CEO's office after my ordeal with ceasing their service - it is always easy to disconnect or shut something down, or close an account; it's out-of-this-world stressful to get it set up.

I miss the days when I could order broadband from BE and they'd pop a modem/router in the post and give me an activation day and I'd know it would work on that day with 100% certainty.

I quote John McEnroe.

What upsets me is that my post on the Sky forums is pretty much ignored by the moderators and all they can do is ask me if someone is 'looking in to it' for me.

How would I know, every time I call the Sky team there's a different person, who claims they can see their colleagues notes, and then there is that colleague (who I don't know if I should name or not) that called me and emailed me that i've got an appointment set for the 14th to install the service - what happened to her, did she get disciplined for such careless mistakes or was it their ploy all along to try and keep me as a customer by tricking me with an FTTC-installation-appointment-on-a-stick knowing that I had to call Virgin Media to cancel my contract with them?

Anyhow, long thought process short, tomorrow Sky are supposed to have an update from OR. I'm guessing this won't be good and they'll just say that it's back to a January install. I am not going to stop until I get them to admit that three failed appointments and no service should automatically mean a priority service.

I waited, just like all the others during my first two weeks (14th Nov to 28th Nov) so I was well within the equivalence rules, and now I'm trying to make my case for the fact that it's well beyond being equivalent and fair, it's been a month since I ordered a service that incompetent fools failed to deliver.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

@izools
Your experience is interesting and useful . However:-

In reply to a post by izools:

Once you write to a DCA advising them that the balance is disputed and a complaint outstanding they cease action.

isn't quite the same thing as

Sky don't report to credit reference agencies so don't get intimidated by red letters whilst you wait for OTELO to resolve the complaint and get the account closed fee free.

which is what really worried me about your advice to the poster.

Besides, whilst they may threaten it utility providers don't take such small balances to court. Not in my experience anyway.

Ummm, maybe.

The point I was making was that due to the fact Sky are so woefully inept at everything including complaint handling, they will likely continue billing for services that aren't being provided whilst the complaint is outstanding.

The consumer has the right to cancel their DD whilst the service charges are in dispute. As Sky don't recognise this basic right they will likely refer the matter to a DCA.

When I say don't be intimidated, I mean don't fold and pay the DCA - as that is tacit admission that the fees are legit and correct - which of course they aren't, as they are for services that haven't been delivered in line with the Supply of Goods & Services act.

Stick to your guns and write to the DCA instead (should it come to that, which it may not) advising that the balance is under dispute rather than folding and paying

Obviously I'm just repeating what I did myself and should be done at one's own risk, but remember, any amount you pay can be interpreted at law as tacit agreement to said fees being correct.

I'm a stubborn little sod and only got my own way due to digging my heels in like Violet Elizabeth every step of the way not wavering for a second. I know my rights and won't have them disrespected by any organisation no matter how large but this often means fighting tooth and nail with a multitude of letters fired off left right and centre over many weeks / months...

EDIT:

My most recent credit score had this to say about my credit file, in case anyone is wondering whether this way of handling things has a negative affect on my credit rating:

http://imgur.com/psSzG

Of course, YMMV.

Edited by deleted (Mon 17-Dec-12 10:01:12)

No problem with any of that. To me the initial version that I didn't like implied to me that the poster should ignore intimidating letters. That was all .

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

No problem with any of that. To me the initial version that I didn't like implied to me that the poster should ignore intimidating letters. That was all .

Yeah, I can understand that. Obviously the difference between ignoring intimidating letters and not getting intimidated by intimidating letters is too subtle for my brash mind

In reply to a post by izools:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

No problem with any of that. To me the initial version that I didn't like implied to me that the poster should ignore intimidating letters. That was all .

Yeah, I can understand that. Obviously the difference between ignoring intimidating letters and not getting intimidated by intimidating letters is too subtle for my brash mind

Personally I hate intimidating letters, I've had an ordeal with Virgin Active years ago where I called the club to cancel, they confirmed it over the phone then I checked and it was still going a month later (i was careless) so I cancelled the DD immediately and called them again to let them know - they had no record of my ever calling the first time. Claim letters and legal threat letters ensued and to avoid the hassle I just settled the £100 something.

That case aside and back on topic, my hands are tied behind my back and my head is gloomy, I really am afraid of losing yet another month or two if I cancel this thing with Sky now. Don't think anyone has suggested to me that I can get a guarantee from another ISP to do it any better

I just got a call from Andy at Sky (who told me the call may be recorded, I told him "I hope it is!").

They've told me my order is a "Sim provide and that makes things complicated because the system has to deal with two orders at once" and they've called Openreach and told them that I told them that my line is working (good grief are they all so clueless?) and now they are waiting a reply within 24 hours for an installation date... they have to check their diaries, which is indeed very hard to do!

They said "we are going to do our best to give you the closest possible installation date, but you know the engineers don't work on bank holidays".

I have decided, that I will order PlusNet for a relative of mine, where I currently pay a Virgin Media bill, based on your recommendations it sounds worthwhile and I will also be glad to rid myself of any affiliation to Virgin Media in due course. I will probably make another post to update on the order for that line.

Edited by Saltank (Mon 17-Dec-12 11:20:27)

In reply to a post by Saltank:

In reply to a post by izools:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

No problem with any of that. To me the initial version that I didn't like implied to me that the poster should ignore intimidating letters. That was all .

Yeah, I can understand that. Obviously the difference between ignoring intimidating letters and not getting intimidated by intimidating letters is too subtle for my brash mind

Personally I hate intimidating letters, I've had an ordeal with Virgin Active years ago where I called the club to cancel, they confirmed it over the phone then I checked and it was still going a month later (i was careless) so I cancelled the DD immediately and called them again to let them know - they had no record of my ever calling the first time. Claim letters and legal threat letters ensued and to avoid the hassle I just settled the £100 something.

That case aside and back on topic, my hands are tied behind my back and my head is gloomy, I really am afraid of losing yet another month or two if I cancel this thing with Sky now. Don't think anyone has suggested to me that I can get a guarantee from another ISP to do it any better

A guarantee, no. Testimonials however, yes.

From personal experience BT Retail (Yeah, I know...) were actually top notch installing a new line and FTTC in my old property in January.

I had the line installed exactly 14 days from placing the order. I was able to choose the appointment slot whilst placing the initial order online.

There was no need for a PSTN engineer to come out as it was just a "Stopped" line and the FTTC engineer had me connected that day, same day the voice side of the line went live.

It seems some companies (BT, TalkTalk) link in with Openreach's systems in such a way that the customer books the engineer slot at point of order, whereas some other providers like Primus Telecom and Sky don't have this functionality and orders sit in a queue on their system to be manually keyed on to the Openreach portal.

I suppose in the mean time you could use a 3G Dongle.

If you're with Three you can get unlimited tethering on some phone tariffs, too.

Edited by deleted (Mon 17-Dec-12 11:31:32)

In reply to a post by izools:

A guarantee, no. Testimonials however, yes.

From personal experience BT Retail (Yeah, I know...) were actually top notch installing a new line and FTTC in my old property in January.

I had the line installed exactly 14 days from placing the order. I was able to choose the appointment slot whilst placing the initial order online.

There was no need for a PSTN engineer to come out as it was just a "Stopped" line and the FTTC engineer had me connected that day, same day the voice side of the line went live.

It seems some companies (BT, TalkTalk) link in with Openreach's systems in such a way that the customer books the engineer slot at point of order, whereas some other providers like Primus Telecom and Sky don't have this functionality and orders sit in a queue on their system to be manually keyed on to the Openreach portal.

I suppose in the mean time you could use a 3G Dongle.

If you're with Three you can get unlimited tethering on some phone tariffs, too.

It should be a huge embarrassment for a telecommunications company, I'm getting stuck in an infinite loop saying that over and over again for the past month

I was with three in the last year, I had a Galaxy Nexus, but when I moved to my new apartment, the entire area has a blanketed signal outage which has been going on for more than a year now, so I can't use data let alone make or receive voice calls inside, outside or on the street. I recently agreed with Three to cancel my contract a a year early..

I just received an email from Sky, which is 18 days late:

Welcome to Sky Talk. We're happy to tell you that your services are now active - so your Sky experience really can begin.

Facepalm.


Edit: Received a mocking SMS reminding me that Sky Talk is now active and that I should ENJOY it.

Edited by Saltank (Mon 17-Dec-12 12:35:57)

on BT retail I couldnt pick the date on order and instead was told to wait for a call back.

When the call back didnt happen within 1 working day I rang BT and then got the install date which was nearly 2 months from my order.

When I did my complaint it was made apparent that sim installs are indeed pushed back as I assume they need a bigger time slot and those are rarer in the system, they got me pushed forward by seperating the voice and broadband install's. So when sky do say a sim install is the issue I believe there is merit in that.

This is in reply to izools sorry.

Edited by Chrysalis (Mon 17-Dec-12 13:49:54)

In reply to a post by izools:

I mean don't fold and pay the DCA - as that is tacit admission that the fees are legit and correct

All you need do is write "Paid under protest" and/or "Without prejudice" on the back of the payment cheque.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Mon 17-Dec-12 17:56:40)

I've a feeling that "Without prejudice" ceased to be a legally recognised term several years ago.

Funny, I still use it at the head of letters I send Orange .

Seriously tho' it is still a legal term:

In reference to www.ico.gov.uk/foikb/PolicyLines/FOIPolicyAredocumentsmarkedwithout...:

A without prejudice offer cannot be put before the court unless the offer is accepted and it is shown as evidence as to the agreement reached between the parties. This enables a claimant to, for example, suggest a figure of compensation that it would be prepared to accept in order to settle a claim without going to a court hearing, or a defendant to suggest a figure it would be prepared to pay. However, should those offers be refused, the parties have respectively reserved the right to argue for more compensation or that no compensation is payable.

However, I agree it is not appropriate for the back of a cheque, but is for putting on letters for negotiating a deal.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I've a feeling that "Without prejudice" ceased to be a legally recognised term several years ago.

I haven't made any detailed searches of case law (which in any case would lead to predominantly closed access sources - the main legal databases, LexisLibrary and Westlaw, are subscription services that charge huge fees and don't offer casual access).

However, I did dig up this commentary by Linklaters (click) (a major firm of solicitors) on Best Buy v Worldwide Sales [2011] EWCA Civ 618, a 2011 Court of Appeal case relating to "without prejudice". In that case, the Master of the Rolls observed obiter (a passing comment, which is persuasive in future proceedings but not binding authority) in paragraphs 35 to 45 of his judgment that a 'without prejudice' letter making groundless threats of legal action may be admissible in court notwithstanding the 'without prejudice' marking.

It is clear from Best Buy that the underlying principle of "without prejudice", based on the public interest in matters being settled without coming to court, remains undisturbed. I would be very surprised if "without prejudice" was totally discarded from the law of England and Wales, as it would break a fundamental principle of the Civil Procedure Rules that parties should make every effort to avoid the dispute coming to court, including the use of letters before action. Accordingly, I'd feel comfortable marking any disputed payment (and the correspondence relating to it) "without prejudice".


I should point out that this advice is worth precisely what you paid for it, and note that I'm a law undergraduate who has yet to study contract and tort in detail.

Thanks David. It could well be that I picked up some distorted, (oops, sorry), reporting of that, or misread a formal law report about it. (Occasionally one catches my eye).

Then, looking at the date and that it was in the Appeal Court, it is possible in fact that I read such a law report of the original case, as I am fairly sure it was before 2011. Or even more likely something to do with one of the cited cases that are discussed within that judgement.

Anyway - the conclusion is clearly that there is "nowt wrong" with the term when used appropriately.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Funny, I still use it at the head of letters I send Orange .

LOL. Most people would be requesting and using a MAC at some stage in those circumstances. It's your super-human tolerance of incompetence showing again.

In reply to a post by Saltank:

BT's CEO booted me back to Sky, aka - back to square one. I guess it was too cocky for me to expect the same kind of treatment I got from VM's CEO's office after my ordeal with ceasing their service - it is always easy to disconnect or shut something down, or close an account; it's out-of-this-world stressful to get it set up.

I miss the days when I could order broadband from BE and they'd pop a modem/router in the post and give me an activation day and I'd know it would work on that day with 100% certainty.

No real suprise there as you are not BT openreach's customer,in your case it's SKY who is, Your contract is with sky it should of been their CEO that you complained formally to or their senior complaints manager (if they have such within sky) pointless waisting anymore time with their clueless support, The reason you are still not connected, is down to sky,

As for the days of "I could order broadband from BE and they'd pop a modem/router in the post and give me an activation day and I'd know it would work on that day with 100% certainty" Even that is not 100% guaranteed, On the day that i migrated to them i lost both phone & adsl, line dead!!

It took openreach 6 days from me reporting it to sort out, & i had to raise it as a fault via my telephony provider,
As the be tech support guy i spoke to,for some reason thought my modem had a sync,so told me that they could not raise a fault? lol
The OR engineer had after disconnecting my line from the Easynet dslam kit had for some unknown reason reconnected the e'side pair to a dead pair ,instead of re connecting to the existing pair,
down to their mapping database not being updated, as the dead pair he'd connected me to had prior to a line fault been used for me e'side ,And to add further to that the 1st modem that BE sent was apparently lost (DHL) not that i was bothered as i already had purchased my own router, before i migrated to be
You just couldn't make all the blundering up

Edited by tommy45 (Mon 17-Dec-12 19:38:40)

Bit disappointed with the venomous remarks from you & Xray, as in the past you have been quite supportive to my problems with Orange.
However if that's what you get off on now, then that's your business.
My point was that by contracting BT to provide my phone line and Broadband, and with BT Openreach being responsible for the comms infrastructure - neither of them would get very far blaming the other for TGW (as you both appear to be very experienced with terminology, I'm sure you know what it stands for).
As regards the positioning of the Infinity box, the BT Openreach engineer did not ever suggest that it should be fixed to an interior wall. If it was, then I suppose the extra work would have involved also clipping the cables to the interior wall, as there would be stress where the cables connect with Infinity box. Having experienced this with previous equipment connections, I now tape all cables to the back of my computer desk, so there is no gravity effect on the connector ends of the cables into the hub etc.

The Good Wife?

I've certainly no idea what it is. If it mattered to me, I'd use an acronym finder.

Seems we hit a nerve. As for the taping post .... Incredible. I hope he hasn't forgotten to dip all contacts in pure alcohol and let them dry for a few seconds to ensure they are clean before plugging in.

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

My point was that by contracting BT to provide my phone line and Broadband, and with BT Openreach being responsible for the comms infrastructure - neither of them would get very far blaming the other

Keep on believing that if it makes you happy. If things don't live up to your expectation we will happily help you as though this little spat never happened.

As regards the positioning of the Infinity box...

Please, please please tell us all what this "Infinity box" is that you refer to, despite what I have said and linked to earlier.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

My point was that by contracting BT to provide my phone line and Broadband, and with BT Openreach being responsible for the comms infrastructure - neither of them would get very far blaming the other

Keep on believing that if it makes you happy. If things don't live up to your expectation we will happily help you as though this little spat never happened.

As regards the positioning of the Infinity box...

Please, please please tell us all what this "Infinity box" is that you refer to, despite what I have said and linked to earlier.

Perhaps referring to the Openreach VDSL2 Modem? Which in the case of FTTC is part of the NTE and has nothing to do with "Infinity" or any other retail brand?

Shhhhh!

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 18-Dec-12 11:49:38)

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

I now have my existing black hub sitting on top of a new cream coloured Infinity box

Forget the argy-bargy .

1) The early Huawei modems were very prone to overheating. They were soon replaced by a modified version, and most of the still-working ones were swapped out. At the time it became standard "good practice" for the modems to be wall-mounted, using the template that comes in the box. I am not aware of that "good practice" instruction to the engineers having been rescinded. There is now also an ECI modem, which possibly doesn't have any such issues - I don't know.

2) Quite apart from the above, it doesn't sound like a good idea to have the Home Hub sitting on top of it. It may be OK now, it may even survive summer temperatures, but I recommend you either separate them or at least find a way of introducing a decent air gap between them.

However, the live streaming quality has not improved any where near 100%

If that hasn't been sorted I suggest you start a new thread and ask for help. It might be an idea for starters to separate the modem and router, as above. Unlikely, but a fairly obvious thing to eliminate first.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Shhhhh!

Oh yeah, sorry

See, no subtlety on izools' side of the fence!

Update: no call from Sky yesterday. So I called and they said nothing has changed. They promised to call back, but said he doesn't know when Andy, the person I spoke to before this chap, works, so it may not be today.

I just emailed CEO of Sky, fingers crossed for some good and beneficial result, but at this stage I'm keeping my hopes down because they can't do anything unless you're asking them to cancel your account.

I got a voicemail from Andy at Sky Fibre and he just restated that 7th January is the installation date and there's nothing they can do. I fail to believe that, they didn't even try.
No response from CEO...

In light of all these troubles and the fact that there's nothing they can do to speed it up, I am not seriously thinking about going to plusnet, but want to know if I should tell sky I'm cancelling the fibre order and the landline, or I should place order for FTTC with plusnet on the same number that sky activated for me?

I don't think Plusnet will be able to get you an earlier appointment, as they are dependant on Openreach too. You may find you will increase your problems by trying to go to a different supplier while in limbo.

In reply to a post by Saltank:

... I am not seriously thinking about going to plusnet,

"now"?

but want to know if I should tell sky I'm cancelling the fibre order and the landline, or I should place order for FTTC with plusnet on the same number that sky activated for me?

I forget, was that a new line install? I think it was.

That could get very messy, as you would need it taking over unless Sky are willing to let you keep it with another ISP. (They do have that facility). To take it over or cease it and get a reprovide from PN or some other CP would take time.

A right mess , but I think I would have told then to get lost long ago, whatever inconvenience it caused.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Saltank:

... I am not seriously thinking about going to plusnet,

"now"?

but want to know if I should tell sky I'm cancelling the fibre order and the landline, or I should place order for FTTC with plusnet on the same number that sky activated for me?

I forget, was that a new line install? I think it was.

That could get very messy, as you would need it taking over unless Sky are willing to let you keep it with another ISP. (They do have that facility). To take it over or cease it and get a reprovide from PN or some other CP would take time.

A right mess , but I think I would have told then to get lost long ago, whatever inconvenience it caused.

Definitely "now".

I might risk it, if PN offers the same kind actual performance service but for a lower price.

Somehow, I doubt Plusnet will be able to offer the same performance as Sky at a lower price.

At the moment Sky are providing zero performance, whatever they might have offered .

I believe the blame lies with BT. Note that Plusnet are owned by BT.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I believe the blame lies with BT. Note that Plusnet are owned by BT.

I'm intrigued as to what you're basing that on?

The facts.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Somehow, I doubt Plusnet will be able to offer the same performance as Sky at a lower price.

I'm also intrigued as to what you're basing that on?

Sky own their own backhaul, whereas Plusnet have to use BTW backhaul.
BT will shorlty be delivering IPTV, whereas Sky have a satellite.
I've seen no mention of Plusnet decommissioning their Ellacoyas, or their throttling systems. I don't think Sky have anything like this.

I agree with batboy actually, look at the maths.

BTw backhaul is more expensive than LLU backhaul yet plusnet service is cheaper, something has to give, and plusnet do have history of oversubscribing, I may well be wrong on this tho and this new unlimited service from plusnet has great performance 24./7 on all protocols. But only time will tell if it ends up that way, sky have a proven history with performance and have easynet peering.

Personally I will be watching plusnet over next 6-12 months and if all looks good over that period of time I 'may' migrate to them. But sky would probably be my preffered choice over them.

Also I agree with the others, the best bet now in terms of speed of install is to stick it out with sky.

In meantime get 3G or something as alternate use.

Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 20-Dec-12 16:37:50)

Definitely "now".

I might risk it, if PN offers the same kind actual performance service but for a lower price.

It would be a stupid move. Firstly you will have to cease and reprovide the line. This will probably take anywhere between 1 and 4 weeks. They can do it otherwise but it's full LLU and the move wont end up taking a nice route...

Plus then you have to wait in essentially the same queue as you've been waiting in with Sky for a bt openreach engineer to install the fibre service. Only you'd be at the back of this queue.

Yes these things can be made quicker but it costs money and ISPs don't do it. BT sometimes do but that's in exceptional circumstances. The general rule of thumb is you have to wait like everybody else for an engineer.

If you jump ship you will be waiting into February I pretty much guarantee & it will be a massive headache.

Also as people have mentioned this unlimited on PlusNet is very ambitious (something has to give) and I don't see it being nearly as good as Sky once it gets lots of subscribers. I could be wrong here.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Thu 20-Dec-12 16:27:54)

Plus Net are not throttling the new unlimited services at all, they do still prioritise traffic, but that is different to throttling.

I am concerned about the new unlimited packages, and hope they can cope with the increased demand. I myself have changed over to the new packages, only 4 months into an 18 month contract I'd be stupid not to - just in case they withdraw it from sale at a later date, or our usage increases drastically.

We all predicted doom and gloom when BT Retail dropped their 300GB allowance and went unlimited. That was years ago.

The Plusnet package that has just been replaced was 250GB peak and unlimited off-peak. So was already higher allowance than the old BT 300GB.

I see no reason to believe Plusnet will have any real problems coping with any extra demand, and no doubt they do have some funding allocated for the probable traffic increase. They will obviously be hoping for an increase in customer numbers and traffic! They have stated a few times over the last few days that they have already provided for the immediate forecasts.

None of us have any idea of the actual costs and revenues involved. There is a tiny, miniscule possibility that Plusnet management do .

I haven't checked Openreach and BTW pricing recently, but believe several aspects have gone down in price. We also have to consider that as a major customer of both, quantity discounts will be available to them, without breaking any equivalence rules.

Only time will tell, but I too will be upgrading in the next few days.

I didnt say they throttling and I agree that on paper right now they 'seem' a great BTw based deal as they even saying now they dont expect any constraints on their bronze traffic.

But I think it pays to be cautious because they have history, what we dont know yet is how things will be in a year time after a load of new heavy user signups.

So yes my comment is if they can prove to handle the new upcoming demand or not, the plusnet staff have cleared up whats happening in terms of deliberate throttling (is none).

To the OP tho regardless of that his best bet is sticking on his current install path as he will get complications migrating mid install.

He wouldn't be migrating mid-install. He would just be cancelling the FTTC install. The question that then remains is whether he could keep the recently installed Sky phone line on an SMPF basis and order FTTC from elsewhere.

I believe he could, as long as some Sky twit didn't cease the line at the same time as the FTTC order cancellation. However I too have expressed reservations about the timescale.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

He wouldn't be migrating mid-install. He would just be cancelling the FTTC install. The question that then remains is whether he could keep the recently installed Sky phone line on an SMPF basis and order FTTC from elsewhere.

I believe he could, as long as some Sky twit didn't cease the line at the same time as the FTTC order cancellation. However I too have expressed reservations about the timescale.

I've got a lot of ground to cover while I've been away!

Today I received a call from the Sky TV executive (CEO's) team and had a 15 minute talk about my order. She apologised very politely, and I explained my frustration, but the outcome is still 7th January. Her explanation was that if they meddle with the dates, they might muck something up and it could get pushed back. In thinking about this, I was about to say that she try to play around with the dates and maybe I'll get lucky, and if I didn't, I would just cancel the order and start fresh with PlusNet.

Why would I do that? I placed an order for ADSL2+ with PN last night for a relative, and they'll be activating that on 1/1/13. The ordering process was a pleasure and I all information easily available to me, and all choices on the phone line/broadband package shown. I also happen to check how the FTTC ordering thing goes, and it provided me with a time slot (10/1/13) but because it's a matter of urgency I went with ADSL2+ for the time being.
The Sky Fibre Unlimited Pro order on the website was almost on the same scale, but I found it less informative and pleasant than the PN one. Now, we all know just how badly the installation went. I can only speculate if it would have been better with PN - I can assume it would have seeing so much positive feedback for PN and negative for Sky - but I am not cancelling my order and will stick it out, I've spent enough time on this for the moment!

With regards to mobile broadband, I happen to have got my Lumia 920 on EE on Monday with a 1GB data allowance. Through some form of OS trickery, or the speed testing app getting stuck at 54Mbit download, I used more than 800MB of the allowance in 3 days! I would only have been happy if my old Galaxy Nexus on Three worked, but the network has 0% coverage in this new area, so I had to cancel my contract with them - I loved Unlimited Data and got it specifically for situations like this where I had no broadband!

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

I didnt say they throttling

Sorry, that bit was directed at Batboy, should have made that clear, or simply replied twice, once to each post.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

Plus Net are not throttling the new unlimited services at all, they do still prioritise traffic, but that is different to throttling.

Yeah, "different".

Is the relative on the same exchange, I forget? (If we ever knew).

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

He wouldn't be migrating mid-install. He would just be cancelling the FTTC install. The question that then remains is whether he could keep the recently installed Sky phone line on an SMPF basis and order FTTC from elsewhere.

I've just had a look at the Plusnet unlimited fibre package and there's a £49.99 installation charge if your line isn't with BT.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Yeah, "different".

I'm thinking the same The whole ISP has been designed for years and offering products for those whose primary use of the internet is email and web. Anything else was "managed" traffic.

Now I appreciate other ISPs do this and don't talk about it, but personally don't like the fact that web/email is higher priority under some strange scale than any other protocol I use. (I get why BT throttle BitTorrent, but I don't like it). Which is why I was with BE - and would be with AAISP if I could afford their rates for 50Gb a month.

What you say is close to right, but isn't, in three respects.

The very minor one is that the possible charge is £50. So you may be looking in the wrong place.

Far more important is that the £50 is if you don't take Plusnet Home Phone. I'd be extremely surprised if you can find any ISP that offers FTTC with a free install if you don't take the same ISP's phone line rental. So what's the problem with that?

Finally you say "if your line isn't with BT". I've no idea where you got that from, but it's just not the case. It could be you have misunderstood something.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Is the relative on the same exchange, I forget? (If we ever knew).

Yes, same exchange: WEWHAM.

Thanks. There's a post in another thread/exchange ordered Thursday and that is down for Christmas Eve or 1/1/13 as well. Not confirmed yet though.

I'm still waiting for the 7th, and, having used up pretty much all my bundled data allowance I can get across several devices (I really miss my Galaxy Nexus on Three with unlimited data, sucks I have no signal here) I'm not relying solely on my trusty old iPhone4 and O2's freedom to let me purchase additional 1GB of data.

In slightly different news, I managed to persuade the lady from VM's India movers team to do a quick swap on the broadband account I have at my relative's property. After they 'found the codes' on their 'system' (sounds so archaic, as if it's the first time they're doing this), the modem stopped working there, but alas right now it doesn't work at my flat yet.

Also, I reactivated my Sky TV package today, and told them I only have one satellite cable running in to my flat so I had to set my box to Single Feed mode. They promptly offered me a £10 engineer on Saturday to run a new cable. I wish they would treat internet installations and service with the same respect and dignity. Bah.

If Sky had their own engineers for broadband you would get somebody as quickly as you do for the TV.

Unfortunately they are reliant on BT openreach who I've never had a great experience with... Once it's all up and running it'll be fine and you'll be happy

To help with data usage turn off windows updates for now as they can easily eat lots of data.

Sky also make big money from their TV side. Probably not a lot from broadband.

Called VM, they couldn't figure out what's wrong and said we have to call out a - much disliked word- engineer. I tried to persuade them, saying it was working fine just up the street. After a while he said an engineer is available today. So I agreed, the engineer arrived within two hours (this is a first) and said it's the modem (an old Scientific Atlanta DOCSIS2) so swapped it for a SuperHub and now I can at least live a little.

PlusNet sent a modem for ADSL to my relatives property today, I'm going to be placing those funny microfilters all over again in the next few days!

Also, the Sky TV engineer called (how nice!) and confirmed a more accurate time of 2-4 for his visit rather than just 8-5, tomorrow, and asked what he will be doing.

I point the finger at you, BT Openreach.... you should take a few chapters from their book about customer service.

Just a word of warming regarding the superhub
It's possibly the worst bit of kit I've ever used

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

Just a word of warming regarding the superhub
It's possibly the worst bit of kit I've ever used

No issues for me with my first one, nor with this second one. I set it to modem mode and use my own Netgear WNDR3700 with DD-WRT.

It's a different kettle of fish in modem only mode.

Still if you give it a few days without being powered off I bet you can't access the superhub web interface.

Good news everyone!

The engineer from a contractor's firm (MJ Quinn) showed up at 9am. Connected his little box to my socket and he proposed to move the master away from the weirdly positioned original so that it can be closer to where I want the modem.

He came back after about 40 minutes, installed the socket and plugged in the modem.

I ran a speedtest and it provided results of about 38/8 Mbit. Estimated speeds were 54/17 Mbit so I am a little bit unhappy at the moment, especially after the engineer showed me his tablet and that the line tested for 60/20 Mbit.

Here's the Pingtest.

So as of right now, I've unplugged the temporary Virgin Media SuperHub along with my Netgear WNDR3700 that was plugged in to it, I managed to test the WiFi range of the Sky router and it seems a bit better than my own router, which is a pleasant surprise.


The Sky router shows the following:

Modem Status Connected
DownStream Connection Speed 40000
UpStream Connection Speed 10000

Edited by Saltank (Mon 07-Jan-13 12:32:22)

In reply to a post by Saltank:

I ran a speedtest and it provided results of about 38/8 Mbit. Estimated speeds were 54/17 Mbit so I am a little bit unhappy at the moment, especially after the engineer showed me his tablet and that the line tested for 60/20 Mbit.

The speed test is normal for the 40/10 product or did you order Sky Fibre Pro. If you did, Sky alway provision on on 40/10 and upgrade to 80/20 a few days later.

In reply to a post by simon194:

In reply to a post by Saltank:

I ran a speedtest and it provided results of about 38/8 Mbit. Estimated speeds were 54/17 Mbit so I am a little bit unhappy at the moment, especially after the engineer showed me his tablet and that the line tested for 60/20 Mbit.

The speed test is normal for the 40/10 product or did you order Sky Fibre Pro. If you did, Sky alway provision on on 40/10 and upgrade to 80/20 a few days later.

It's been a few days and it's still the same 40/10.
Will be calling Sky as soon as I've a bit of time. So far I'm very happy with the reliability.

In reply to a post by Saltank:

It's been a few days and it's still the same 40/10.
Will be calling Sky as soon as I've a bit of time. So far I'm very happy with the reliability.

Mine switched to 80/20 at midnight on the Saturday after the install. The install was Tuesday 18 Dec and it switched on 22nd. If I recall at my last place when I upgraded to 80/20 the switch took place at the weekend.

It's probably a Sky thing.

Edited by simon194 (Wed 09-Jan-13 11:00:54)

Here is my Ping Monitor.

I'm noticing that latency is exactly 2x more than an IDNet line in the area. I wonder and hope this is temporary.

In reply to a post by Saltank:

Here is my Ping Monitor.

I'm noticing that latency is exactly 2x more than an IDNet line in the area. I wonder and hope this is temporary.

I have the same latency. It's sort of the norm when interleaving kicks in.

Here's mine.

also depends on node/POP proximity, idnet may have had a more local node which means better routing whilst sky may not.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

also depends on node/POP proximity, idnet may have had a more local node which means better routing whilst sky may not.

Yes, the IDNet is very close to the cabinet (there's one across the road from the building, 50m, but that's not it), which is apparently around the block and I'd say it's something like 100-150m? I get regular 74/16Mbit there.

The Sky one is tested for 60/20 according to the engineers iPad, as of yet I'm still on the 40/10 profile. It's definitely a little bit further away from the cabinet.

Here's mine with interleaving on, although I'm not with Sky.

I finally called them today. They said there's a line on my fault (ha ha ha) and they're sending an engineer out tomorrow to "reset your profile".

Seems like it's something they could easily do on their end, but, we'll wait and see I suppose.

Engineer came bang on time.

After a long phone call he discovered that my wire was plugged in to the wrong port, so someone else was syncing to my 80/20 profile!
He's gone to the cabinet to correct the wiring and hopefully I should be on the right profile soon.

I wonder if Sky will provide any credit for the half a month of this error existing

I wonder it these other people will now complain about the sudden loss of speed they never paid for

What's the price difference?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

What's the price difference?

The difference is £10 pm between the SFU and SFUP.

After a short wait (and some odd problems with the Sky Hub) I was up and running, at a much higher sync than the estimated 54Mbit.

The other people were probably paying for 40/10 and getting 80/20. So said the engineer.
Well after nearly two months since original installation day, I'm finally "up and running".

Only the lack of customisation on the Sky Hub invites me to connect my own router back up, as I can't use my own DNS servers but am forced to use Sky's.

DownStream Connection Speed 75145
UpStream Connection Speed 20000

Edited by Saltank (Thu 24-Jan-13 00:53:37)

Isn't it great?

28 Nov - Failed install.
7 Jan - Totally wrong but successful install.
23 Jan - Success. 28 November target achieved. (No real explanation of the 28 November fail ever received).

Are you laughing, or crying?

That's kinda odd.
If you think of the fairly low percentage of Sky FTTC customers per cab, in relationship to all the BT Wholesale based ones. The chances of the installer getting it wrong, and by complete fluke getting another set of ties with Sky service on them ..........

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

That's kinda odd.
If you think of the fairly low percentage of Sky FTTC customers per cab, in relationship to all the BT Wholesale based ones. The chances of the installer getting it wrong, and by complete fluke getting another set of ties with Sky service on them ..........

They said that Sky has like 5-10 ports in each cab. By chance, two were side by side and one of them was mine. The contractor plugged my cable in to another port. I bet the other person (if they were actually using their connection, I was told their modem had sync so we can assume they were) were hoping their luck would never run out

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Isn't it great?

28 Nov - Failed install.
7 Jan - Totally wrong but successful install.
23 Jan - Success. 28 November target achieved. (No real explanation of the 28 November fail ever received).

Are you laughing, or crying?

Both. I'll also be enrolling for a quadruple heart bypass to ease my misery!

I am so pleased for you! You got the install done eventually hehe

The Sky Hub has great range. People complain about it and then spend £120 on a Netgear or something. Turns out the Sky Hub range beats the expensive router so often!!

It's a great bit of kit I've had it plugged in for months on end without a problem. We have 10+ devices usually connected at once too . Never needs a reboot.

Glad the sync speed is good now too. Sky have no control over sync speeds etc without getting an engineer out on fibre unfortunately. So they did the right thing.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Thu 24-Jan-13 04:46:57)

In reply to a post by Saltank:

I'll also be enrolling for a quadruple heart bypass to ease my misery!

Given your luck with Simultaneous Provides, is that wise?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Saltank:

I'll also be enrolling for a quadruple heart bypass to ease my misery!

Given your luck with Simultaneous Provides, is that wise?

BT will be left out of the loop on this one!