DLM setting level too low after "fault"

Had my BT Infinity 2 officially enabled yesterday but thought I'd plug in the Smart Hub (Home hub 6) early hours Sunday morning to try my luck and low and behold, it connected at 46Mbps - much lower than the 68 to 80 estimate and even the 54MBps guaranteed minimum but since the offcial activation date wasn't until the next day I didn't think much of it and went to bed assuming it'd be correct at some point the next day.

Completely out of the blue, 2 OpenReach engineers knocked on my door yesterday morning saying there's a fault on my line resulting in their servers always showing me as dropping the connection. They then proceeded to fit a new faceplate and went on their merry way. However I was still syncing at 46Mbps; the engineer said he was surprised I could connect at all but made no mention of the slow speed.

Fast forward to the day after, which is obviously today, and the speed is now 45Mbps, it hasn't moved up; in fact it's dropped 1Mbps, probably as I rebooted the router a couple of times during the day?

Anyway, I was now worried the DLM has "settled" on this lower speed so I called BT and they advise to turn off the router and turn it back on after half an hour, which will apparently force a retrain of the line. I did this some 5 hours ago and I'm still connecting at 45Mbps, I've not rebooted since tho as that seems to make the connects lose a few Kbps.

My line stats look pretty good to me, but I'm not really up on VDSL:
DSL uptime:
0 Days, 4 Hours 47 Minutes 41 Seconds

Data rate:
14.27 kbps / 44.71 kbps

Maximum data rate:
14273 / 44709

Noise margin:
6.1 / 6.4

Line attenuation:
16.5

It looks like the 45Mbps is an artificial cap? Those stats to me suggest the line is capable of much more?

Does turning the modem off for half hour force a retrain?

Should I wait a couple of days or speak to them again tomorrow?

Edited by deleted (Tue 23-Aug-16 22:27:28)

If the attenuation is right, you probably can get more - and the estimate of 68-80 seems to match that.

However, with only 6dB of noise margin, your line is running as fast as it can right now. The sync speeds and noise margins don't suggest an artificial cap.

If there is more to be gained out of the line, then there would have to be a fault with the copper somewhere. However, I'm not really au-fait with trying to debug a line via the HHx devices, so someone else might offer help...

Ah, I didn't think that's how the Noise Margin worked when it's capped? I figured it'd always sync at the cabinet at 6dB then the cap is implemented after that? Like it'd sync at 60Mbps at the cabinet but DLM thinks this is too fast due to previous errors so reports a max attainable of 45Mbps to the router?

I just found it a coincidence my actual speed is exactly the highest attainable.

Also, BT tested my line both this morning (the engineer) and remotely and found no fault (after changing the faceplate).

I'm confused now haha

EDIT: A noisy line would increase the Noise Margin wouldn't it? For example, max attainable would report, say, 70Mbps at 6dB but the NM would be increased to, say, 9dB resulting in a connection of, again only an example, 50Mbps.

I may have this all wrong lol

Edited by deleted (Tue 23-Aug-16 23:09:32)

Have you tested into the test socket to rule out internal wiring/setup as being the cause of the low speeds?

I got the same speeds using the faulty and the new faceplate, not sure if that makes a difference? The speeds are also the same with and without a filter and/or a phone connected.

The faceplate on now is brand new and fitted by a BT engineer yesterday morning.

But no, I haven't tried that as yet. You think that might help?

There's one way to find out

lol true.

It's slightly better:

Data rate:
17.85 kbps / 49.51 kbps

Maximum data rate:
17850 / 50369

Noise margin:
6.1 / 6.3

Line attenuation:
16.1

You need an engineer visit. However you're unlikely to get one without waiting the 10 mythical days.

Hey, I came from ADSL, 50Mb is magical to me

I'll contact them tomorrow. If it is a fault the annoying thing is there was an engineer here yesterday morning and he said it tested fine. Odd.

This increase could just be the DLM that I apparently "reset" some 6 hours ago, no?

I'll leave it and see if it increases overnight.

Best way to think of it, noise margin is effectively how much noise the line can tolerate before it drops out.

The target is usually 6db, this is on a good line. Here lets imagine the line drops out when the noise margin hits 1db. The line can tolerate effectively 5db of noise / interference before it drops out. Interference may be a lamp post turning on, a washing machine in your home close to the phone wiring etc.

Now let's take a problematic line. At 6db noise margin the line drops out. It continually loses connection. DLM intervenes here and sets a noise margin of say 9db or 12db.

Now at a 12db noise margin, the line can tolerate 11db of noise before dropping out.

The issue, at a higher noise margin the line syncs slower.

Now looking at your line the noise margin is 6db and is not indicating that DLM is capping the speed. It might just be the estimate you were given was off or that there is a line fault somewhere.

Certainly there is not a DLM fix that will give you 10Mbps more, as if that was the case your noise margin would be say 15db not 6db.

Ah, nice ELI5, thank you.

Looks like an engineer visit is needed then...

That's how the BT Wholesale DLM works on ADSLx, but the Openreach one on FTTC/VDSL2 does not manipulate the noise margin.

It uses higher levels of interleaving, and often G.INP on the downstream which brings the interleaving down to a very low level, then if things get really serious it uses banding, where it set maximum and minimum sync speeds.

Kitz has a useful article, but note that at the top of the page she says it is "a work in progress". This section looks pretty good to me.

Well, I've contacted them via chat and a very nice lady called me back.

She told me that's she'd "reset the line" and to wait 4 hours and reboot the router. Obviously this isn't going to do anything, and is pretty muich the same thing I've been told 3 days in a row now, so I requested an escalation.

I'm apparently going to get a call from an engineer today.

Ah interesting, will have a read

Seriously doubt the 'reset of the line' was an actual DLM reset.

Those are done by Openreach and usually only happen as part of an engineer visit

BT SIN 498 Section 2.2.1 introduces the idea but is badly written. It basically describes the banding, with no useful information, and doesn't say that it is a kind of last resort. Interleaving and G.INP are part of the normal day to day management and not mentioned there.

From the information available it seems it wouldn't do any good even if they did reset the DLM.

Quick update as I've been investigating this all day lol

I think the OpenReach engineer has faceplated the wrong socket, or used the wrong set of wires; hear me out...

In my living room there are two phone sockets, one on an outside wall and one on an internal wall. I've just moved in and we're told one is a wired link to the socket in the bedroom, as in you use a splitter from the main socket into the other one and you then have a working socket in the bedroom too. The engineer has fitted a faceplate on the internal one.

Trouble is, even when using the master socket on the new faceplate the other one is still active, i can even connect to Infinity on it; so they're linked even via the master socket. Each socket has two sets of wires, twisted together into the same connectors (pins 2 and 5) on the non faceplated one and also the bell wire (pin 3) is connected on both, if that matters.

The engineer did see the other socket but didn't open it, he just said that's not the right one, presumably as it has a fancy faceplate on it.

My guess is this:
The outside socket is the main BT one and this links directly (pins 2, 3 and 5) to the other one on the internal wall. The internal wall one then links to the bedroom so using the new master socket only disconnects the bedroom; nothing is plugged into there anyway. However using the master socket does net me a 5Mbps gain, I can�t explain this. Plugging into the outer wall socket gives me the same sync speed as if I�d not used the master socket. Saying that, the new faceplate has the new bell wire inductor installed, could be that?

Would taking out the bell wire on either/both do anything, do you think?

Edited by deleted (Wed 24-Aug-16 21:40:18)

DELETED

Edited by deleted (Wed 24-Aug-16 22:41:56)

Can you take pictures of all sockets and upload them to an image sharing site?

Also if you can include the wiring that would be great, but only on the faceplates not the back wiring.

To confirm the outside socket is actually outside of the house right?

Is it possible to follow the wiring to see where it is going? It is possibly star wired which would result in poor speeds.

To confirm, all sockets work on infinity?

Pictures coming up shortly but can confirm the "outside" one is on an outer wall (I'm in a first floor apartment tho). Images of wiring on this one will have to be the back wiring as that's all there is...

I can't trace any wires, it's all through walls but yes, infinity works on both sockets in the living room; even when taking the front plate off and using the new master socket.

(You've now got two identical posts. Deleting either would help us . Click the Edit button and that gives you a delete option as well as a change one).

I was about to post similarly to ukhardy07, whose post wasn't there when I started reading yours. As he says, we need photos, I suggest of each socket assembled, and of the backs of the removable faceplates where the wires are attached. Make sure it's clear which back of faceplate goes with which assembled pic.

http://imgur.com/a/TVa2U

Sorry, I thought I'd replied to the wrong one.

I'll delete this one...

Your picture of the standard faceplate with the 2 3 and 5 connections, if I'm not mistaken. The middle one with the orange is number 3 is it? If so, and if not go to whichever is "3". Gently remove the one on connection 3. Do not cut it.

Then see what speed you get once you reassemble that.

The fancy (MK?) socket I know little about. So need to know what the connector numbers are. Nothing obviously corresponds with the standard master faceplate, which worries me a bit. But with luck it doesn't matter.

I'm still not clear about

In my living room there are two phone sockets, one on an outside wall and one on an internal wall. I've just moved in and we're told one is a wired link to the socket in the bedroom, as in you use a splitter from the main socket into the other one and you then have a working socket in the bedroom too. The engineer has fitted a faceplate on the internal one.

Trouble is, even when using the master socket on the new faceplate the other one is still active, i can even connect to Infinity on it; so they're linked even via the master socket. Each socket has two sets of wires, twisted together into the same connectors (pins 2 and 5) on the non faceplated one and also the bell wire (pin 3) is connected on both, if that matters.

Particularly the "you use a splitter from the main socket into the other one". A cable? From which socket of the splitter to where?

Does the bedroom one work when you have the pictured faceplate removed? Like when you took the photo? (Just checking a phone plugged into gets a dial tone or not is enough to check, if you have a landline phone).

A picture of the inside of the bedroom one might help, but if it's one of the fancy ones please tell us the pin number of each colour.

I've just had a thought. This "external" one, you mean outdoors? Is it like the one in this picture once the lid is closed? Grey, with no actual socket?

No, it looks like it does on that first picture, that is the actual socket.

It's basically a fancy version of this: http://www.socketworld.co.uk/ekmps/shops/socketworld...


Next to it is one of these: http://cdn.toolstation.com/images/141020-UK/800/1471...

It's not outdoors, no, it's just on an external wall but it's indoors.

The bedroom one is simply one of these: http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/images/phone/LJU3_front_f...

"Particularly the "you use a splitter from the main socket into the other one". A cable? From which socket of the splitter to where?

Does the bedroom one work when you have the pictured faceplate removed? Like when you took the photo? (Just checking a phone plugged into gets a dial tone or not is enough to check, if you have a landline phone)."

Ignore the splitter bit, that's what we were told about the TV and I had assumed the phone would be the same, but I think the phone line to the bedroom is hardwired, not splitter needed. I can't test this at minute tho as other half in bed already.

"Your picture of the standard faceplate with the 2 3 and 5 connections, if I'm not mistaken. The middle one with the orange is number 3 is it? If so, and if not go to whichever is "3". Gently remove the one on connection 3. Do not cut it.

Then see what speed you get once you reassemble that."

Wouldn't that be the same as just using the master socket though? I had assumed I'd need to remove the bell wire from the other socket?

Edited by deleted (Thu 25-Aug-16 00:13:22)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The fancy (MK?) socket I know little about. So need to know what the connector numbers are. Nothing obviously corresponds with the standard master faceplate, which worries me a bit. But with luck it doesn't matter.

It does match up really, 2 and 5 are the blues and 3 is bell; it's wired correctly.

Edited by deleted (Thu 25-Aug-16 00:12:43)

The "standard faceplate" that you have the dangly filter plugged into is the master faceplate. The socket that faceplate plugs into is an NTE5(A) master. Do you think the fancy one is the master?

Did the engineer fit the whole assembly your dangly filter is plugged into?

You now add to the questions . Does either the fancy one or the bedroom one work with that NTE5A faceplate unplugged, as in your photo.

The wire I asked you to remove is the ring/bell wire, which in your installation isn't needed, but almost always causes a lot of interference with broadband. But it might be needed by the next occupant (unlikely but possible), which is why I said not to cut it. It may need reconnection after you have left.

Asking you to check whether either of the other two sockets work at all with the NTE5A faceplate unplugged is checking for "star wiring". Star wiring can be even more damaging to broadband than the ring wire.

Everyone else here would want you to do what I ask if they were talking to you. Though a few may know the connector numbers in the fancy socket. If you want help you need to supply the information asked for and do the tests requested. So far you haven't supplied all the photos ukhardy and I asked for and seem to be trying to second-guess us.

The only guaranteed thing you need to do is remove the wire I said to. That might help a lot. But it might not, if you have star wiring or some other wire colours are what we call "split pairs". Which is why I want to know the colours in each pin number of the fancy and bedroom sockets. And how you connect the NTE5a to the fancy.

Right. Your latest post wasn't there when I started on mine .

So what needs to be connected to make the bedroom one work?

I think I'm getting to what is going on .

I think maybe the fancy socket is a master, and the NTE5A I hope has its "master" circuitry disabled. But I would only expect a single set of wires in the bedroom.

Remove the Pin 3 bell wire in all three sockets, to make sure there is no way it is connected to the phone line itself.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The "standard faceplate" that you have the dangly filter plugged into is the master faceplate. The socket that faceplate plugs into is an NTE5(A) master. Do you think the fancy one is the master?

That's what I'm leaning towards, yes. I think this OpenReach one actually connects to the bedroom via the Faceplate but I can't check that till tomorrow.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Did the engineer fit the whole assembly your dangly filter is plugged into?

Yes

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

You now add to the questions . Does either the fancy one or the bedroom one work with that NTE5A faceplate unplugged, as in your photo.

Fancy one, yes. I can even get infinity on it with the faceplate off. This implies this has the main BT line coming in and couples directly to the new master socket, which is obviously wrong. Bedroom, can't check yet.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The wire I asked you to remove is the ring/bell wire, which in your installation isn't needed, but almost always causes a lot of interference with broadband. But it might be needed by the next occupant (unlikely but possible), which is why I said not to cut it. It may need reconnection after you have left.

That's my next thing to try.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Asking you to check whether either of the other two sockets work at all with the NTE5A faceplate unplugged is checking for "star wiring". Star wiring can be even more damaging to broadband than the ring wire.

Everyone else here would want you to do what I ask if they were talking to you. Though a few may know the connector numbers in the fancy socket. If you want help you need to supply the information asked for and do the tests requested. So far you haven't supplied all the photos ukhardy and I asked for and seem to be trying to second-guess us.

I'm just stating what I think might be the issue, I'm not second guessing or saying it's correct, hence why I'm asking on here, as I don't know. I thought I had supplied the info required, sorry. Which ones am I missing?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The only guaranteed thing you need to do is remove the wire I said to. That might help a lot. But it might not, if you have star wiring or some other wire colours are what we call "split pairs". Which is why I want to know the colours in each pin number of the fancy and bedroom sockets. And how you connect the NTE5a to the fancy.

Bell wire coming out shortly. Not sure if http://imgur.com/6k4L6Tj constitutes star wiring?

Colours in the fancy socket are in the same places as the other one, the 2 blues to 2 and 5 and orange to 3, sorry if I wasn't clear on this before but the colours are the same.

The numbers of the fancy one go:

C W C
6 5 4

C B O
1 2 3

Key:
C = Clear
W = White with blue stripe
B = Solid Blue
O = Orange Bell wire

Not sure if that helps?

Edited by deleted (Thu 25-Aug-16 00:47:58)

Have you seen my 00:35 post? It might have been while you were writing this one.

We can probably forget about star wiring. The ring wire in the fancy is probably the critical one.

Two masters is bad, but I expect the engineer has disabled the circuitry in the NTE5A. Just working as an extension. Odd that an extension socket wasn't used, but who knows.

Remove all T3 (orange). The bedroom one probably doesn't matter, but do it. The fact nothing is plugged into it is irrelevant - the wire just works like an aerial connected to the master.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Have you seen my 00:35 post? It might have been while you were writing this one.

We can probably forget about star wiring. The ring wire in the fancy is probably the critical one.

Two masters is bad, but I expect the engineer has disabled the circuitry in the NTE5A. Just working as an extension. Odd that an extension socket wasn't used, but who knows.

Ah, missed that one, sorry.

I get a horrible feeling he set the new one as master as he didn't seem interested in the other one. Maybe as it had the TV connector on it too? He maybe thought that couldn't possible be a master socket? Pure speculation tho.

I've just thought of something that could be confusing you .

You say you have just moved in. Did you have FTTC at your previous place with the interstitial filter behind the faceplate, and the DSL socket vertically above the phone socket?

That setup does (normally) stop you using extension sockets for the FTTC. Your layout doesn't. It's that other interstitial one that knocks out the extensions and only lets them have phone service.

AIUI two masters is rarely a major problem. Just not a good idea. With luck the ring wire disconnections will help, and only takes a few seconds to try. Also of course, daytime connecting is expected to be faster than night-time.

Any idea what was in place of the NTE5A when you moved in? One like the bedroom?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I've just thought of something that could be confusing you .

You say you have just moved in. Did you have FTTC at your previous place with the interstitial filter behind the faceplate, and the DSL socket vertically above the phone socket?

That setup does (normally) stop you using extension sockets for the FTTC. Your layout doesn't. It's that other interstitial one that knocks out the extensions and only lets them have phone service.

This is my first experience with fibre

Old place just had a standard phone socket, although I was just about next door to exchange so I got full 20Mbps from ADSL2

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

AIUI two masters is rarely a major problem. Just not a good idea. With luck the ring wire disconnections will help, and only takes a few seconds to try. Also of course, daytime connecting is expected to be faster than night-time.

Any idea what was in place of the NTE5A when you moved in? One like the bedroom?

It was like the fancy one but without the TV bit.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

AIUI two masters is rarely a major problem. Just not a good idea. With luck the ring wire disconnections will help, and only takes a few seconds to try. Also of course, daytime connecting is expected to be faster than night-time.

Any idea what was in place of the NTE5A when you moved in? One like the bedroom?

Well, I managed to sneak into bedroom so all 3 bell wires are now off, no improvement

I was convinced that'd help too!

Here's what we have:

Data rate:
18.21 kbps / 50.57 kbps

Maximum data rate:
18212 / 50568

Noise margin:
6 / 6.3

Line attenuation:
15.9

Surely those are Mbps not kbps? (All posts containing speeds). The max ones being kbps.

You are up from 44.71 to 50.57. That's over 10%. Still not what we expect.

What does this checker say for the two VDSL2 lines? Just copy and pasted the two lines, we don't need it pretty.

lol yeah, I noticed it should say Mbps. I copied and pasted those straight from the user stats.

Here's the results of that website:

VDSL Range A (Clean) 80 63.9 20 20 -- Available -- -- VDSL Range B (Impacted) 68.5 35.5 20 10.9

So you are in the middle of the Impacted. Which suggests something still isn't right. I'm wondering what spec the actual cabling is, and where the incoming BT line enters the building. Plus how it gets from there to the apartment.

The engineer's comment suggests to me there is something dodgy. Why should he be surprised you get a connection at all?

Is it a "new" building or a converted one?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

So you are in the middle of the Impacted. Which suggests something still isn't right. I'm wondering what spec the actual cabling is, and where the incoming BT line enters the building. Plus how it gets from there to the apartment.

The engineer's comment suggests to me there is something dodgy. Why should he be surprised you get a connection at all?

Is it a "new" building or a converted one?

It's quite new, built in 2003.

I think his comment was referring to the old faceplate. He didn't know where the main BT line entered the apartment, I know that much; he didn't comment that to us but said something along the lines of "this doesn't look right" to his colleague. I only overheard tho, so can't be sure.

EDIT: built in 2003, not 2013

Edited by deleted (Thu 25-Aug-16 09:24:07)

I might be getting somewhere with BT, finally.

From the chat window:
Mansi: I have completed the diagnostics and I see that we need to send an engineer to fix this issue. Also, there will be no charge for this
Me: OK, what did the diagnostics say?
Me: Also, why was this not done sooner?
Me: Sorry again, tho, not your fault
Mansi: No problem. I understand your concern regarding it.
Mansi: It is related to some bridge tap and engineer needs to fix it

I don't know if there is any other cause of a bridge tap, but star wiring, which I was looking for earlier, is/does cause one or more bridge taps. Bad on ADSLx, very bad on FTTC.

Honestly the whole setup is pretty dire. RobertoS is taking you through the very same steps I would do so I will just be watching the thread progress. Seconded everything said though.

I don't know if there is any other cause of a bridge tap, but star wiring, which I was looking for earlier, is/does cause one or more bridge taps. Bad on ADSLx, very bad on FTTC.

Yes Bob, completely agree. Haven't trawled through the whole thread yet, do we have any pictures ?

Lets hope the OP get a decent Openreach bod this time.

Hiya, I took a couple of images last night: http://imgur.com/a/TVa2U

Yeah, I've removed the 3 bell wires which didn't help.

Nothing more I can from here now, I don't think.

Apart from the bell wires, which I can put back, I've not touched any wiring.

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all their help and input on this, especially Robert.

Very much appreciated.

and good luck with the engineer this time. Let us know how things go.

This may be relevant - does the line come in through overhead wire (effectively) direct to your apartment, or underground with all the others to a utility room in the basement?

It's possible the true NTE would be there if it comes underground.

Is that the only phone socket in the property? EDIT Ok its not - more pics further down page.

It is definitely not a BT Master socket.

Edited by MrSaffron (Thu 25-Aug-16 12:30:27)

The orange wire going into pin 3 on the standard Openreach faceplate lift that out of the IDC connections and the line should work better. e.g. http://www.thinkbroadband.com/faq/sections/radsl.htm...

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

and good luck with the engineer this time. Let us know how things go.

This may be relevant - does the line come in through overhead wire (effectively) direct to your apartment, or underground with all the others to a utility room in the basement?

It's possible the true NTE would be there if it comes underground.

lol thanks

I honestly have no idea, I can't see any overhead wires tho.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The orange wire going into pin 3 on the standard Openreach faceplate lift that out of the IDC connections and the line should work better. e.g. http://www.thinkbroadband.com/faq/sections/radsl.htm...

Already done buddy, I've lifted it from all 3 sockets, still no go.

And all the other sockets don't work when the test socket is exposed?

One possibility is that the DLM has reacted and is capping the connection speeds (banding) and the improvement may not be visible in terms of connection speeds. Sometimes there are clues in the full set of connection speed, attenuation and noise margin figures.

Edited by MrSaffron (Thu 25-Aug-16 12:40:26)

Noise margin is already at 6dB, so I'm guessing that's how fast this line can currently go? OpenReach quote it as a full speed line upto 80Mbps.

The other socket in the living room definitely works when the test socket is exposed, not sure about bedroom as I'd have to disconnect to test.

If any sockets other than the test socket work when the test socket is as per photo then you have wiring issues in the home left to resolve i.e. this is probably the bridge tap issue and can seriously affect VDSL2

Here's a very strange question, to try next time you feel like removing the NTE5 faceplate. I'm assuming your normal setup is router >> filter >> NTE5 faceplate.

Do not disconnect anything. Just remove the faceplate with the router still plugged into it through the filter.

Does the broadband keep working?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Here's a very strange question, to try next time you feel like removing the NTE5 faceplate. I'm assuming your normal setup is router >> filter >> NTE5 faceplate.

Do not disconnect anything. Just remove the faceplate with the router still plugged into it through the filter.

Does the broadband keep working?

Good call, and you know what, I think it will...

EDIT: Actually, no wait, I don't think it will, I think the faceplate is connected to the bedroom.

I'm using the connection at the moment so can't test but I will do later.

Edited by deleted (Thu 25-Aug-16 13:16:22)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If any sockets other than the test socket work when the test socket is as per photo then you have wiring issues in the home left to resolve i.e. this is probably the bridge tap issue and can seriously affect VDSL2

There's some serious wiring issues, that's quite clear I think.

BT reckon they can fix and I have it in writing it won't cost me anything so I'll just have to wait and see.

Engineer visit is next Wednesday.

Still try it .

The other socket in the living room definitely works when the test socket is exposed, not sure about bedroom as I'd have to disconnect to test.

So you still have a bridge tap issue. You need a decent Openreach cove to come and find the 'true' feed and then make the socket you require the one and only master...... Oh, and then have them do a reset.

Just seconding the advice here really. Try the socket with the faceplate removed and the modem connected, also when openreach come ensure they carry out a DLM reset else it could take weeks to improve.

I wonder if every flat is done this poorly, or whether it is just yours.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

Just seconding the advice here really. Try the socket with the faceplate removed and the modem connected, also when openreach come ensure they carry out a DLM reset else it could take weeks to improve.

I wonder if every flat is done this poorly, or whether it is just yours.

There's no dial tone on the faceplate when removed as I've just tried that but as I say I can't reconnect it up as yet.

The literature we got with our executive apartment (flat? - how dare you haha) says every room is identical, so I think they are, worryingly.

If you get a decent engineer they'll sort it out. If you got any of the engineers on this forum they'd sort you out. I am just hoping you don't get Kelly comms!

If all apartments are the same then openreach may be aware of the issues as they've likely seen it already in the others.

I mean seriously who integrates the TV antenna and the phone socket? Me personally if I see a shiny MK phone socket a small part of me begins to shrivel up inside, it usually means a nightmare ahead

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

If you get a decent engineer they'll sort it out. If you got any of the engineers on this forum they'd sort you out. I am just hoping you don't get Kelly comms!

If all apartments are the same then openreach may be aware of the issues as they've likely seen it already in the others.

I mean seriously who integrates the TV antenna and the phone socket? Me personally if I see a shiny MK phone socket a small part of me begins to shrivel up inside, it usually means a nightmare ahead

OK, I'm intrigued, what/who is Kelly comms?

EDIT: I've just Googled, and no, I don't want them but they appear to be in London and I'm in Yorkshire lol

Edited by deleted (Thu 25-Aug-16 15:52:02)

Quick question for the learned here.

Is there an easy way to refit the bell wire without a proper tool (although some might agree I qualify as that)?

Really thin screwdiver?

I don't really want those disconnected when he/she arrives, especially on the OpenReach faceplate.

Edited by deleted (Thu 25-Aug-16 15:54:50)

Having the ring wire disconnected should be of no issue to the engineer - it is very common practice in extension wiring with broadband.

I have though in the past pushed them in with a thin screwdriver but generally people would strongly recommend a "krone" tool - basic plastic ones can usually be picked up in homebase or similar in the electrical/phone accessories section for a few quid.

EDIT : Looks like I overestimated the price On Homebase for 23p for the basic plastic one.

Edited by ian72 (Thu 25-Aug-16 15:59:59)

In reply to a post by ian72:

Having the ring wire disconnected should be of no issue to the engineer - it is very common practice in extension wiring with broadband.

I have though in the past pushed them in with a thin screwdriver but generally people would strongly recommend a "krone" tool - basic plastic ones can usually be picked up in homebase or similar in the electrical/phone accessories section for a few quid.

EDIT : Looks like I overestimated the price On Homebase for 23p for the basic plastic one.

23p!!! You obviously missed the post where I said I'm from Yorkshire! haha

I'll leave it if they're not gonna be bothered, I just didn't want to be blamed for anything; apart from the bell wires I haven't touched any of the wiring.

In reply to a post by SpecChum:

I don't really want those disconnected when he/she arrives, especially on the OpenReach faceplate.

If you get an Openreach engineer who has any idea what they are doing, they will never connect the bell wire. It is not used anymore and is an historic cable.

It was used a long time ago in pulse dialing systems which are almost obsolete.

In short no problem they'll be happier with it removed.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Thu 25-Aug-16 16:48:39)

Is there an easy way to refit the bell wire without a proper tool (although some might agree I qualify as that)?

Really thin screwdriver?

Hell no ! Bodge central, and adding insult to injury.

I don't really want those disconnected when he/she arrives, especially on the OpenReach faceplate.

The engineer won't be phased, they will know why you've done it.

I just didn't want to be blamed for anything;

The people at fault here are the electricians who wired the flat for starters ...

Well that and the wazzock (you ARE from Yorkshire) who attended site previously.

The people at fault here are the electricians who wired the flat for starters ...

Is it standard for a property developer to install the initial NTE5 socket? I had always assumed BT did this?

I always thought the property developers would install extensions and leave the cabling there to be connected to an NTE5 connected by openreach.

Do BT literally just terminate a dropwire cable into the property and leave it for the developer? Suely not?

EDIT: Also how an openreach engineer arrived and looked at this wiring, yet did nothing, is beyond me. They must have realized it involved work and consciously left it poorly setup IMO.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Thu 25-Aug-16 18:09:33)

Is it standard for a property developer to install the initial NTE5 socket? I had always assumed BT did this?

It varies TBH.

Also how an openreach engineer arrived and looked at this wiring, yet did nothing, is beyond me. They must have realized it involved work and consciously left it poorly setup

Completely agree, the buffoon needs 'coaching' at least.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The people at fault here are the electricians who wired the flat for starters ...

Well that and the wazzock (you ARE from Yorkshire) who attended site previously.

Wow - this thread generated a lot of replies.

I'm glad to see that a bridged tap was identified - both in the tests run on reporting a fault and in some practical tests. That ought to be easy for an engineer to fix.

Will this have been reported as an early life failure? If so, does that make it more likely that real Openreach staff will attend in place of a sub-contractor?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I just didn't want to be blamed for anything;

The people at fault here are the electricians who wired the flat for starters ...

Well that and the wazzock (you ARE from Yorkshire) who attended site previously.

The correct terminology for a wazzock from Yorkshire is: "dough-head"

Will this have been reported as an early life failure? If so, does that make it more likely that real Openreach staff will attend in place of a sub-contractor?

Round this way at least the don't use contractors for that kind of work.

It was an OpenReach engineer that came out; nice guy, spent a bit of time discussing Retro Games and his hate of DLM. Apparently most, if not all, engineers hate it and want it turning off completely.

Anyway, he identified the external wall socket as the main one but when testing this the max line speed was still only 50Mbps, so I'm already getting the max speed I can; at least I know now.

He's crimped that one up and put a Mk3 socket on the internal wall so I don't need a filter anymore.

At least now I'm getting 50Mps without having to use the master socket haha

So are you using the MK3 socket now? Sounds like he just relocated the master.

The Master is still in the same place but he tested both sockets and the speed was the same, there's was no loss on that short cable run vs directly onto end of BT's cable.

He said the problem lies between my apartment and the cabinet but he said due to the way it's wired up there's nothing they can do.

I did get the feeling there probably IS something they could do but it's far too much work just to correct one person's speed. Maybe I'm just cynical...

Edited by deleted (Wed 31-Aug-16 11:02:55)

Now I've had time to think, I might put an official complaint in actually.

I'm paying for min 54Mb and getting 50Mb.

How are you using another socket? Generally the MK3 should be the only socket which syncs up.

What did the engineer say about the bridge tap? Or hadn't they told him?

I think he means what was the Master and the engineer bypassed it and fitted another.

I hope that's what was done!!!

I asked the op if that is what happened and the op said

The Master is still in the same place but he tested both sockets and the speed was the same, there's was no loss on that short cable run vs directly onto end of BT's cable.

This suggests to me that actually the engineer did not bypass it.

OP can you confirm, does your fibre connection work on more than one socket at current?

Can you take a picture of the phone socket currently in use for fibre?

If Openreach have confirmed there's nothing more that can be done you'll be told to either like it or lump it basically (keep it as is or cease with no termination charges)

I suspect that the engineer has shifted the the NTE, hence the comment about trying the speed in both locations. Doing so will have resolved the bridge tap issue.

What bothered me more was the earlier comment about being unwilling to sort something UG 'just for this line'.