Not many people want FTTP

According to Ofcom "only" 25% of folk take FTTP when its available. I had the impression from hereabouts that 25% was well in excess of expectation.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59683884

I think it's partly down to a lack of advertising unlike FTTC where stickers are put on the cabinets. There isn't an easy way to know that FTTP is live unless you regularly check checkers and/or have registered interest, which most people don't do.

What makes me cringe, is that the report is using GB/s not Gb/s!

Edited by Grimers (Fri 17-Dec-21 12:20:13)

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

According to Ofcom "only" 25% of folk take FTTP when its available. I had the impression from hereabouts that 25% was well in excess of expectation.

Not a surprise, as the general public (whom don't know about this forum) would assume it would cost more than existing service. Not aware you can order (on BTwholesale at least) the cheaper services and just get the speed you're paying for.

Also have to take into account that many people will still be in contract and most of those on FTTC will be happy with their speed so won't change just for the sake of it.

Areas with slow ADSL speeds see much higher take-up. Some places closer to 80%

Partly BT's own fault for calling FTTC Fibre, why change to FTTP when you are told you have Fibre already. In our local area which is 100% ADSL with an OR van a regular visitor to fix the lines, then everyone you speak to wants FTTP when it arrives next year.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

...most of those on FTTC will be happy with their speed so won't change just for the sake of it.

Very true, I think the only mass market consumer drive for faster speeds will be software (especially game) updates. If it 'works' for video conferencing, TV streaming etc. there is little reason to pay more.

On FTTP, 80/20 will actually be 80/20, which is perfectly serviceable for a few people on average use.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Also have to take into account that many people will still be in contract and most of those on FTTC will be happy with their speed so won't change just for the sake of it.

Areas with slow ADSL speeds see much higher take-up. Some places closer to 80%

I think this will be key for many built up areas, most will likely have a fast enough FTTC service so won't upgrade. While it's probably cheaper for Openreach to rollout in towns/cities, I think it will probably take longer to get a return than in areas where speeds are relatively poor.

At some point in the future, I think ISPs will just not offer FTTC services if FTTP is available - this will ensure customers are moved across to more reliable connections.

Pretty sloppy excuse for journalism.

…anyway. To early to look at meaningful conversion rates, barely 1/6th of premises passed by OR. VMO2 won’t get going on FTTP until at least the next half of the decade and CityFibre only passed 1M premises…allegedly 🤣

It depends on several things.

For those getting between 40/10 and 80/20 on FTTC with a stable line, then that's good enough for most people. Only a small minority of people want "ultrafast" and are prepared to pay for it.

However in places which are a long way from the cabinet, and can get only very slow FTTC or even ADSL only, then the take-up of FTTP will be higher.

In some places there's a copper "stop sell" which is forcing people over to FTTP - although small at the moment, it will become more significant over time.

However there's one other major factor here, which is the altnets undercutting Openreach. An altnet's business plan is not to mop up the ultrafast demand (of which there is little), but to undercut. If they can supply a service at 50p per month cheaper than the competition, then a sizeable proportion will take them up.

Hence there are people moving to say Hyperoptic, or Vodafone via Cityfibre, not because it's full fibre (they don't care), but simply because it's cheap.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

It depends on several things.

For those getting between 40/10 and 80/20 on FTTC with a stable line, then that's good enough for most people. Only a small minority of people want "ultrafast" and are prepared to pay for it.

However in places which are a long way from the cabinet, and can get only very slow FTTC or even ADSL only, then the take-up of FTTP will be higher.

As this, I have friends who have choice of FTTP, but with speeds that meet their needs why bother changing. Around where I live we where BDUK funded due to poor speeds, there is around 33 to 50% take up (a rough guess from observing poles) but then nearly all the properties are privately rented which might hold back some from ordering.

In reply to a post by burble:

As this, I have friends who have choice of FTTP, but with speeds that meet their needs why bother changing.

Because eventually there will be a "Stop Sell" on their serving exchange, so will need to move over anyway.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Also have to take into account that many people will still be in contract and most of those on FTTC will be happy with their speed so won't change just for the sake of it.

True, but I know a lot of people whom pay for 80/20 and receive 40/10 or 40/5 and would really like faster uplink for home working. Even 40/20 would be good for them. FTTP would solve that instantly.

Most normal non-techy people don't really need more than 50mbit say. Anything faster makes no real difference for browsing.

It'll need specific use cases to prompt a lot of them - like fttp being needed to get tv over internet say. Or with my parents the other week, I setup cloud backup, and it literally took two weeks of uploading on their [censored] adsl2 connection. They're overloaded with options too - cable, bt fttp, cityfibre fttp.

Edited by arfster (Fri 17-Dec-21 13:57:43)

There may also be another factor here and that is having the hassle of an engineer visit and possibly having equipment mounted on the wall.

In my own case I'd have probably gone firstly to FTTC had I been able to get it as that would have been enough having gone from a 4 Meg ADSL connection.

FTTP or ADSL were the only options at the time (as OR didn't roll out FTTC because they had rolled out FTTP)

I'd have probably FTTC because it weould have been a case of placing the order and it going live on a certain day, like ADSL so no need to book days off work etc.

My hand was forced when it looked like I might have to work from home due to weather in early December and my connection started to flap.


Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't go back and all the OR engineer that came to do the install was great bit I did obviously have to book time off to be at home.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I know a lot of people whom pay for 80/20 and receive 40/10 or 40/5 and would really like faster uplink for home working.

I didn't know we'd met!
But this is me, paying for 80/20 to get < goes and checks > 46/13. By the time I get FTTP I think my need for a decent upload speed will have disappeared.

I got direct mail from BT and Sky about a month or two after I had my FTTP installed. Some people will be on contracts too so might not want to upgrade until that ends, or not want to upgrade with their existing provider..

john

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

I didn't know we'd met!
But this is me, paying for 80/20 to get < goes and checks > 46/13. By the time I get FTTP I think my need for a decent upload speed will have disappeared.

My old 80/20 gave me 50/8 to start with, but degraded to 40/2 and I left in 2019 to go to VM, now getting 200/20 but with random disconnections - still better for home working. Would prefer FTTP but no sign in this town.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Not a surprise, as the general public (whom don't know about this forum) would assume it would cost more than existing service. Not aware you can order (on BTwholesale at least) the cheaper services and just get the speed you're paying for.

Until the wholesale cost reductions actually feed through to ISP offerings to customers most people will be uninterested in migrating. If the service is adequate for their needs they aren't going to voluntarily pay more, only those with poor speed/reliability FTTC/ADSL service, a genuine need or wanting bragging rights.

For example Zen only appear to offer 100/18, 300/47, 500/70 & 900/100 options for FTTP (likely the wholesale 110/20, 330/50, 550/75 & 1000/115 products), nothing to match 40/10 or 80/20 on FTTC, so it would be around 27% price increase moving from 40/10 FTTC to FTTP.

Same here! But, without that mail, not many people would know.

BT consumer sell FTTC and FTTP at identical prices, and you have a choice of 40/10, 55/10 or 80/20. If you're looking for the cheapest price, then you wouldn't be going with Zen anyway.

80/20 and 115/20 are priced identically at wholesale IIRC, so I think Zen have chosen to do the obvious thing which is to provide 115/20 only.

I'm currently on FttC 80/20 and get 80/20 which has been stable for years.
Pings in games are 7ms so i have no real reason to upgrade as it does everything I need.

I will be moving to FttP (400/400 initially) next year though as it is approx. the same price and I can lose the home phone which wasn't an option in my current contract.

It was very difficult to get 30% of properties to sign up to Gigaclear when the alternative was was sub 2mbps ADSL. In those days web pages were probably less complex and therefore faster to load than modern ones.

At another location I have 40/10 VDSL, The 10 is more like 6, but even so I do not want to pay more for FTTP but I would not object to having it for the same price which at the moment is supplied by Plusnet for just under £20 pm after they agreed to a price match with Vodafone.

In reply to a post by Grimers:

In reply to a post by burble:

As this, I have friends who have choice of FTTP, but with speeds that meet their needs why bother changing.

Because eventually there will be a "Stop Sell" on their serving exchange, so will need to move over anyway.

That may well be what happens in the future, but the OP is about the present and how many are (or not) moving to FTTP.

In reply to a post by burble:

In reply to a post by Grimers:

In reply to a post by burble:

As this, I have friends who have choice of FTTP, but with speeds that meet their needs why bother changing.

Because eventually there will be a "Stop Sell" on their serving exchange, so will need to move over anyway.

That may well be what happens in the future, but the OP is about the present and how many are (or not) moving to FTTP.

Stop Sell basically takes 2 forms:

1. FTTP Priority Exchange
2. WLR withdrawal (PSTN retirement)

The former is already underway, there are 134 exchange areas already under stop sell and every quarter they announce the next tranche. See here

The latter will be national, effective late 2023, but repercussions are already manifest with large ISP like BT proactively moving folks over from copper PSTN to router VoIP.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

BT consumer sell FTTC and FTTP at identical prices, and you have a choice of 40/10, 55/10 or 80/20. If you're looking for the cheapest price, then you wouldn't be going with Zen anyway.

Maybe more expensive compared to initial 12/18 month contract offers, but less expensive than many out-of-contract prices. I was using them as an example to highlight the stealth price increase which would also apply to people in stop sell areas unless they went with BT retail, I've not checked the other large ISPs to see what they offer.

80/20 and 115/20 are priced identically at wholesale IIRC, so I think Zen have chosen to do the obvious thing which is to provide 115/20 only.

AFAIK Openreach are reducing the FTTP wholesale charges to encourage takeup, if ISPs do not pass some of this on and just keep it to make extra profit it doesn't help.

They've spent so long telling people with FTTC or Cable that they already have fibre that people are rightly confused when they get a leaflet telling them they can...now get fibre!

The thing is, we're hardly paying any more for BT's Full Fibre 900 package than we were when we were on their 55/10 package.

True, but I don't see the point in delaying moving over to a service when it's going to be the only option, later on down the line.

Exactly, that's why FTTC should've never been advertised as "fibre", no wonder there's little FTTP takeup.

Edited by Grimers (Sun 19-Dec-21 13:53:43)

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, I'm not sure the naming makes much difference in practice. If the service people have today is good enough for their needs, why would they switch to a better service - especially if it means they have to pay more?

Lack of support from budget ISPs is a problem. If you're paying £22 per month for FTTC on Plusnet or Talktalk, you're going to stick. Plusnet don't offer FTTP at all, and Talktalk only offer expensive ultrafast packages without voice service. (This may change if they join up to Equinox)

It's a bit different for BT, who charge the same for FTTC and FTTP. They can easily move people over to FTTP at contract renewal time: "good news! when you renew with us, we'll upgrade you to FTTP! No extra charge, and you'll get the full speed you pay for! Blah blah blah." If there are BT customers who stay on FTTC even when FTTP is available, only BT are to blame.

no wonder there's little FTTP takeup.

I think the OP was making the opposite point: that the Ofcom-claimed FTTP takeup of 25% is higher than they expected.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Not a surprise, as the general public (whom don't know about this forum) would assume it would cost more than existing service. Not aware you can order (on BTwholesale at least) the cheaper services and just get the speed you're paying for.

Sometimes it does cost more, i am paying £23 a month at the moment for 35Mb/s with Plusnet FTTC, when zzoomm offers their FTTP, it will be £29 a month, some people are getting FTTc cheaper than that. Now is doing a 12 month contract at £21 a month, which if Plusnet don't do me a good offer I may move to.
zzoomm is supposed to come here by me in Spring next year. 150Mb/s for £29 a month, my contract with Plusnet ends next month.
34Mb/s is more than enough for me to be honest, so why pay more?

Same reason everyone isn't running out and buying electric cars right now.

Zzoom isn’t Openreach/BTwholesale so you can’t compare pricing directly with Plusnet FTTC

Of course over 50% of the country can’t or has problems charging at home. (BBC report yesterday). Using public chargers is apparently 70% more expensive.

Government needs to work on this problem!

Double the number that bought them same time last year. Nearly 20% of total vehicle sales last month were BEV…market share doubled in 12 months. Diesel is dead in the cities and petrol is dying on its feet…

https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/

I switched to Vodafone when I got my renewal notice from plusnet with the price increasing.
Didn't call to get a better price as as was getting a good deal from vodafone, took the 100Mbps package as recently got a unifi setup and the hardware I have at the moment won't go much higher and I don't need anything higher. Was getting 55Mbps down as I was on an old deal which they didn't regrade to 40 but line speed max was around 60ish. They improved the offer to 50p less than I'm paying now but for the sped increase both ways I'm happy to pay the extra for FTTP.
The 100 both ways will do me for some time, also took the opertunity to port my number to Voip as I asked for a new line from vodafone so anyone calling my "house number" actually gets my mobile or the wifes depending on who answers first, am thinking of adding an adaptor so I can get the calls on the old house phone

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Zzoom isn’t Openreach/BTwholesale so you can’t compare pricing directly with Plusnet FTTC

I never said it was openreach, I was just saying that prices are still higher for FTTH and that is why people are not going for it. zzoomm, while an alternative network is the same with higher prices than i am paying now.

Vodafone is just over £20 for 35Mb/s FTTC, but I had a fall-out with Vodafone a few years ago with their mobile phone network, also their contract is 24 months, i don't want one that long just in case i decide to go for zzoomm, apart from a couple of streets that have Openreach FDTTH for some reason, ZZoomm is the only one building a pure fibre network here

I saw on think broadband a while ago that Openreach was supposed to be building a network here, but so far nothing,
My home phone is already on Voip, I have been using sipgate for a few years now, not that I use it much to be honest and the only people that phone me on it now is Work, my brother and the NHS.
We will see what happens next year and if Zzoomm is close to coming up here, at the moment they seem to be all over the place.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

zzoomm, while an alternative network is the same with higher prices than i am paying now.

Original paragraph was incorrect and has been replaced by this italic section. Please see details in the post below

Most Altnet's only provide access to their own ISP, so less choice than Openreach or CityFibre networks. Less choice normally means higher prices.

Edited by jchamier (Mon 20-Dec-21 10:03:15)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

zzoomm, while an alternative network is the same with higher prices than i am paying now.

But if you had Openreach FTTP then the ISP should be able to move you over to the new physical connection from FTTC for the same price

Not necessarily. At wholesale Openreach FTTP is more expensive than FTTC: so the ISP has to make a commercial decision whether to offer FTTP at the same price and take a financial hit or not.

BT has decided to do so, because they own Openreach, and it's in their overall interest to get as many people onto FTTP as soon as possible. Not to mention that their base retail offering isn't particularly cheap.

Other ISPs might do so in order to take advantage of the "Equinox" offer, which requires them to meet a certain percentage of migrations to FTTP. But if they choose this route, they might decide to drop the lower levels of service completely, or price them higher than they do today.

Under the current regulated pricing GEA FTTC 40/10 is only £5.05+VAT wholesale per month, whilst FTTP 40/10 is £13.93+VAT per month. (That's just for the tail to the exchange, and doesn't include all the other ISP costs like backhaul, transit, billing, support, router etc)

References:
https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/prici...
https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/prici...

For upcoming pricing, see:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/07/openre...
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/08/openre...

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Not necessarily. At wholesale Openreach FTTP is more expensive than FTTC: so the ISP has to make a commercial decision whether to offer FTTP at the same price and take a financial hit or not.

Gotcha, thanks for the links. I was thinking BT retail obviously. What a shame.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

zzoomm, while an alternative network is the same with higher prices than i am paying now.

Original paragraph was incorrect and has been replaced by this italic section. Please see details in the post below

Most Altnet's only provide access to their own ISP, so less choice than Openreach or CityFibre networks. Less choice normally means higher prices.

Yes, zzoomm will only provide access to their own ISP, but someone somewhere, I think it was on Facebook told me that in the future they may allow other ISPs to use it.

We will see what happens next year.

I think your FTTC prices are the ones that sit on top of WLR - to do a comparison you'd need to use the SoGEA list

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/prici...

SoGEA 80/20 is £206.40/year, FTTP 80/20 is £209.28/year. So there's a cost difference but it's almost a rounding error.

Even though that's a slightly weird way to put it, you do have a point!

Edited by Grimers (Mon 20-Dec-21 17:47:09)

Oh yes, you're right. I thought it was suspiciously low.

So FTTC 40/10 is £12.23 per month, while FTTP is £13.93. In the cut-throat low-end ISP world of Talktalk, Plusnet and Vodafone, a £1.70(+VAT) price differential is still quite significant.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

According to Ofcom "only" 25% of folk take FTTP when its available. I had the impression from hereabouts that 25% was well in excess of expectation.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59683884

Plenty of people see no need for more, and especially if it costs more.

People on sites like this aren't that representative of the norm.

I have customers on ADSL still and they still think that's sufficient for them despite having other options. Personally I couldn't live with it, but plenty can and see no issue.

In reply to a post by Grimers:

Exactly, that's why FTTC should've never been advertised as "fibre", no wonder there's little FTTP takeup.

That isn't why the take up isn't that high.

Other factors like:

(a) Major providers didn't even do FTTP until recently and still are often half-baked
(b) A lot of people don't need/want/care for more speed
(c) Cost

are more important. The name whilst confusing at times doesn't factor in any significant way.

Strangely I have just upgraded my bb service from BT 150/30service to their 500/75 service and it has cost me only an extra £3.40 a month. Do i need the extra speed? probably not but for that price why not?

In reply to a post by threelegs:

Strangely I have just upgraded my bb service from BT 150/30service to their 500/75 service and it has cost me only an extra £3.40 a month. Do i need the extra speed? probably not but for that price why not?

The real question is, was you paying too much for the 150 or did you get the 500 for a real good price?

i got a big continuing discount on the original service over two years ago because they screwed up the order about 4 times and ended up paying £34.99 rising to £36.56 and i have now got 500 for £39.99 including landline and their new payg phone package. ok the phone calls out are expensive but outgoing calls we will use mobiles and just use the landline for incoming and 0800 calls. will go voip soon though.

In reply to a post by threelegs:

Strangely I have just upgraded my bb service from BT 150/30service to their 500/75 service and it has cost me only an extra £3.40 a month. Do i need the extra speed? probably not but for that price why not?

Because that's £40.80 a year someone would be spending potentially for nothing, even ignoring that BT will stick in an annual increase on everyone so will be more than that as time goes by.

If someone is more than happy with 150/30 and it does what they need, paying any amount more for more speed they don't need doesn't represent good value to you, but it's a great deal to BT...

In reply to a post by threelegs:

i got a big continuing discount on the original service over two years ago because they screwed up the order about 4 times and ended up paying £34.99 rising to £36.56 and i have now got 500 for £39.99 including landline and their new payg phone package. ok the phone calls out are expensive but outgoing calls we will use mobiles and just use the landline for incoming and 0800 calls. will go voip soon though.

You realise 0800 is free on UK mobiles too??

yes

In reply to a post by therioman:

That isn't why the take up isn't that high.

Other factors like:

(a) Major providers didn't even do FTTP until recently and still are often half-baked
(b) A lot of people don't need/want/care for more speed
(c) Cost

are more important. The name whilst confusing at times doesn't factor in any significant way.

Speed and cost, yep, correct there. A lot of people don't need the extra speed, so why would they pay more for it?

I have 36Mb/s and to be honest it is fine, it does everything I need from it, even watching 4K stuff. Downloading large files is fine, sometimes they take a little while, but then I know people who is on higher speed connections than me and say the same thing, because a lot of sites get congested, so can not deliver the speed required.
As for cost, i am not going to pay more for something I don't need, sure if it is only 2-3 Quid extra a month then maybe.

If plusnet can't give me a good deal next year then I may look elsewhere, like now, they seem to have a good price and only a 12 month contract.

I would say it's significant, if people think they already have "fibre" then they aren't going to order FTTP.

In reply to a post by Grimers:

I would say it's significant, if people think they already have "fibre" then they aren't going to order FTTP.

People are interested in experience more than naming outside of the geek and tech centric types - your average consumer couldn't give a toss what you call the service or how it is delivered, what they care about is whether it works and if the price is right for them. You can call it super-dooper-internet-ultrasuperfast-glassy-fibre-pro-premium but what they want to know is "will netflix work fine on it" and "how much is it".

If the current service works for the user and gives them what they want and the price is right for them, they have no incentive to get more. It really is as simple as that. I know people would love to pretend there is a case for FTTP everywhere and everyone wants gigabit, but that isn't true - it just isn't that binary a decision.

In reply to a post by therioman:

You can call it super-dooper-internet-ultrasuperfast-glassy-fibre-pro-premium

I think it could catch on

You do have a lot of good points, I was just trying to say if they get an advert through the door saying that fibre is available to them, they may be like, "But I've already got it?"

Agreed!

In reply to a post by Grimers:

You do have a lot of good points, I was just trying to say if they get an advert through the door saying that fibre is available to them, they may be like, "But I've already got it?"

And they do, I have spoken to different people around here about the new fibre network coming here and a lot of them say i already have fibre, sometimes take a bit of explaining that they don't. Sometimes it is just easier to say, but this new one is faster, a lot faster . then most come back with that they don't need anything faster.

In reply to a post by therioman:

In reply to a post by Grimers:

I would say it's significant, if people think they already have "fibre" then they aren't going to order FTTP.

People are interested in experience more than naming outside of the geek and tech centric types - your average consumer couldn't give a toss what you call the service or how it is delivered, what they care about is whether it works and if the price is right for them. You can call it super-dooper-internet-ultrasuperfast-glassy-fibre-pro-premium but what they want to know is "will netflix work fine on it" and "how much is it".

If the current service works for the user and gives them what they want and the price is right for them, they have no incentive to get more. It really is as simple as that. I know people would love to pretend there is a case for FTTP everywhere and everyone wants gigabit, but that isn't true - it just isn't that binary a decision.

Completely agree, but would add to your list of ‘what they want to knows’ that the wifi coverage is unfaltering and covers every millimetre of their home.

I manage perfectly well with the ~43Mbps that I get but the best selling point for my money would be stability and reliability. Target people on a long line like me and that would be a winner.

Exactly! This is why I don't understand why OR are not focussing on long VDSL and ADSL-only lines, as in many cases, especially around here, they're deploying to/enabling areas that already have decent VDSL speeds, first. There are many places around here that desperately need FTTP but could be waiting months/years for it to arrive, whereas here where we already had a decent FTTC speed, have had FTTP for 3 months. I guess a lot of it comes down to cost and/or ease of deployment, but I'm sure OR would get a lot more return if they prioritised slower areas.

Edited by Grimers (Tue 21-Dec-21 13:45:30)

In reply to a post by therioman:

In reply to a post by threelegs:

Strangely I have just upgraded my bb service from BT 150/30service to their 500/75 service and it has cost me only an extra £3.40 a month. Do i need the extra speed? probably not but for that price why not?

Because that's £40.80 a year someone would be spending potentially for nothing, even ignoring that BT will stick in an annual increase on everyone so will be more than that as time goes by.

If someone is more than happy with 150/30 and it does what they need, paying any amount more for more speed they don't need doesn't represent good value to you, but it's a great deal to BT...

but my £3.40 a month increase is probably less than people spend to get a coffee in costalot/star bucks and they justify that to themselves perhaps every day ( i never buy coffee out at those places). so my increase is cheap and if i want to and can afford it that is my perogative

In reply to a post by Grimers:

There are many places around here that desperately need FTTP but could be waiting months/years for it to arrive, whereas here where we already had a decent FTTC speed, have had FTTP for 3 months. I guess a lot of it comes down to cost and/or ease of deployment, but I'm sure OR would get a lot more return if they prioritised slower areas.

The trouble is, there's very little return to Openreach for migrating people from FTTC to FTTP. They only receive an extra £1.70 per month at wholesale (that's for 40/10), plus a bit more from the small proportion of people who upgrade to Ultrafast. Any further benefit will only accrue way in the future, when they can shut down the copper network.

Therefore, they focus on the places where installation is cheapest. Then they can defer the big expenditure as long as possible, most likely with cap in hand to government.

Their second priority is areas covered by VM and altnets, since losing customers from FTTC costs them real money.

Yes FTTP is a (pretty big) jigsaw part of their long term transformation change to ‘All IP’ - the savings from which will be in the long term enormous as they allude in every quarterly results report….
- Openreach get out of voice provision entirely with the retirement of PSTN (WLR withdrawal) nationally at the end of 2025
- reduce their exchange estate to 1/5 of it current size over the next two decades
- in tandem retire the bulk of the FTTC / copper estate as FTTP becomes the predominant delivery technology for IP over the next decade

Right now their absolute focus is to accelerate the build FTTP as fast as possible, reduce the cost of build and grow the customer FTTP connections equally as fast as possible.

In reply to a post by Grimers:

Even though that's a slightly weird way to put it, you do have a point!

Came to mind as I was buying an EV at the time. Revelation for those EV zealots that totally missed the concept of an analogy.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Yes FTTP is a (pretty big) jigsaw part of their long term transformation change to ‘All IP’ - the savings from which will be in the long term enormous as they allude in every quarterly results report….
- Openreach get out of voice provision entirely with the retirement of PSTN (WLR withdrawal) nationally at the end of 2025
- reduce their exchange estate to 1/5 of it current size over the next two decades
- in tandem retire the bulk of the FTTC / copper estate as FTTP becomes the predominant delivery technology for IP over the next decade

Right now their absolute focus is to accelerate the build FTTP as fast as possible, reduce the cost of build and grow the customer FTTP connections equally as fast as possible.

Please explain how FTTC doesn't allow retiring of WLR, reduction of exchange estate and removal of the bulk of the exchange-side copper, with a reminder that recovery of copper appears to be unviable.

What’s with the Fin thing in your signature?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baHsoEAAMZU

😂

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Yes FTTP is a (pretty big) jigsaw part of their long term transformation change to ‘All IP’ - the savings from which will be in the long term enormous as they allude in every quarterly results report….
- Openreach get out of voice provision entirely with the retirement of PSTN (WLR withdrawal) nationally at the end of 2025
- reduce their exchange estate to 1/5 of it current size over the next two decades
- in tandem retire the bulk of the FTTC / copper estate as FTTP becomes the predominant delivery technology for IP over the next decade

Right now their absolute focus is to accelerate the build FTTP as fast as possible, reduce the cost of build and grow the customer FTTP connections equally as fast as possible.

Please explain how FTTC doesn't allow retiring of WLR, reduction of exchange estate and removal of the bulk of the exchange-side copper, with a reminder that recovery of copper appears to be unviable.

I don’t recall saying thatl. I just listed off three quite well known things that in aggregate massively reduce their run cost.

Whether they see fit to rip the copper out of the ground when the time comes….[censored] knows. Once your retire WLR and you’ve got three quarters of the country on FTTP, serving broadband from 90k odd street cabinets seems a little futile.

It’s what was often written at the end of French ‘arty’ films.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

It’s what was often written at the end of French ‘arty’ films.

https://grammarhow.com/fin-end/

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

It’s what was often written at the end of French ‘arty’ films.

https://grammarhow.com/fin-end/

Followed the link. There's several 'it's' where "its" should be to give any credence to the site as an authority.

And it has triggered my apostrophe OCD.

I think there are probably 3 main reasons people are slow to choose FTTP

1. As mentioned before there is confusion on what FTTP is. I know multiple people who bought an FTTC connection and thought it was FTTP. My neighbour when I told him dropped Sky FTTC and signed up to VM. I suspect many won't know the difference between full fibre or fibre to the cabinet, so there is no incentive to change.

2. ISP's selling products that are FTTC seem to be reluctant to undercut those products in favour of promoting FTTP products. So there is no general advertising of FTTP products unless its available in a specific area.

3. As pointed out by some posters on the thread, as long as people can do what they want to do on their current service without any quality of service issues then they won't see any reason to even look up faster connections. They will likely only look at the speed difference and not realise the overall quality of service. I bet many think they are getting the top speed on their FTTC connections, as I doubt they look up what speed they are getting.

In reply to a post by Grimers:

True, but I don't see the point in delaying moving over to a service when it's going to be the only option, later on down the line.

I doubt most people have any idea that it will be the only option 'later on down the line'.

In reply to a post by bowdon:

I think there are probably 3 main reasons people are slow to choose FTTP

1. As mentioned before there is confusion on what FTTP is. I know multiple people who bought an FTTC connection and thought it was FTTP. My neighbour when I told him dropped Sky FTTC and signed up to VM. I suspect many won't know the difference between full fibre or fibre to the cabinet, so there is no incentive to change.

2. ISP's selling products that are FTTC seem to be reluctant to undercut those products in favour of promoting FTTP products. So there is no general advertising of FTTP products unless its available in a specific area.

3. As pointed out by some posters on the thread, as long as people can do what they want to do on their current service without any quality of service issues then they won't see any reason to even look up faster connections. They will likely only look at the speed difference and not realise the overall quality of service. I bet many think they are getting the top speed on their FTTC connections, as I doubt they look up what speed they are getting.

Well said.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

It’s what was often written at the end of French ‘arty’ films.

Carl's previous strapline in his sig was "Building better networks, not just faster ones."

Maybe all those networks are now 'fin'? Dunno.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Dunno.

I'll guess it just means the end of the post. Since you can switch off sig blocks in the forum settings, I suspect a lot of viewers give up with sig blocks given some are extensive.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Dunno.

I'll guess it just means the end of the post. Since you can switch off sig blocks in the forum settings, I suspect a lot of viewers give up with sig blocks given some are extensive.

I would have though that was self evident

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I would have though that was self evident

But that's not funny is it

Must admit I never laughed out loud the first time I saw it. Nor the umpteenth time. I just find the whole sig thing a bit dunno, naff.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I just find the whole sig thing a bit dunno, naff.

I assume you've turned the display of them off for your profile then?

Good shout. Switched them off.

As an advocate for full fibre, it's sad to see some being put off from getting it once available in their area due to poor reviews and reports of bad customer service and frequent long outages. An example that has come up recently having spoken to a few people from different parts of the UK is Gigaclear. Local communities having been put off after bad experiences with trying to get in installed to complaints about lots of outages and bad customer service.

this is what happens when a pluckly little altnet (giagclear) vs Nasty big BT - becomes an established funded player with millions thrown at it -- you have deal with all the stuff that the nasty BT (as viewed by some has had to do) . ie deliver, what you said you would, you deliveryour BDUK milestone and premises (each month every month (otherwise you dont get paid) and make sure you keep and build your network base (none of these are easy -- confused by why some though this was)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Good shout. Switched them off.

A useful place for live BQMs. Which are often helpful for diagnostics.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

A useful place for live BQMs. Which are often helpful for diagnostics.

Especially on Virgin Media DOCSIS which is incredibly variable. Basically all I have in my sig.

In reply to a post by Fastman3:

this is what happens when a pluckly little altnet (giagclear) vs Nasty big BT - becomes an established funded player with millions thrown at it -- you have deal with all the stuff that the nasty BT (as viewed by some has had to do) . ie deliver, what you said you would, you deliveryour BDUK milestone and premises (each month every month (otherwise you dont get paid) and make sure you keep and build your network base (none of these are easy -- confused by why some though this was)

Competition is a good thing, even when it's not good in particular instances, the overall net benefit to all parties is positive and hard to argue against.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

According to Ofcom "only" 25% of folk take FTTP when its available. I had the impression from hereabouts that 25% was well in excess of expectation.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59683884

BBC need i go on further?

I guess it doesn't help when OR don't properly update address records, so some addresses still have FTTC and FTTP available, and some as they should, only have FTTP available.

In reply to a post by cymru123:

As an advocate for full fibre, it's sad to see some being put off from getting it once available in their area due to poor reviews and reports of bad customer service and frequent long outages. An example that has come up recently having spoken to a few people from different parts of the UK is Gigaclear. Local communities having been put off after bad experiences with trying to get in installed to complaints about lots of outages and bad customer service.

There have been posts on social media about Zzoomm here taking a long time to install their service3, and some people having no internet because of it or have to use mobile.

This is one of my worries, I don't really want to pay £35 a month for any longer than a couple of months for Plusnet which is what I would be doing as I would be out of contract by then.

What's your Three signal like?

SIM-only £10pm for six months then £20. Tethering allowed. I have had that for years now in my phone, and grab the latest deal following minimum term expiry.

Or 4G home broadband at £11:50 plus a TV, rising to £23. Or with a claimed better router at £13 then £26. I have the cheaper one at a previous offer price of £18. Again, that was an upgrade from the original I got a few years ago.

That was a pretty strange conversation to read but entertaining. Thank you!

EDIT: Truth be told I can't remember myself why I set it but either way it's now gone.

Edited by CarlTSpeak (Mon 27-Dec-21 11:47:25)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

According to Ofcom "only" 25% of folk take FTTP when its available. I had the impression from hereabouts that 25% was well in excess of expectation.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59683884

BBC need i go on further?

Given it is just reporting the data from the Ofcom report on takeup of FTTP might be a plan?

Yeah it was good for a giggle. 👍

Given that the most vociferous critics of the BBC seem to live on the Rabid Right or the Lunatic Left there is probably a case to be made that the BBC normally manages to provide balanced coverage.

Edited by GonePostal (Mon 27-Dec-21 12:42:39)

My ‘giggle’ comment above was in relation to the tangent I started related to Carl’s mystery signature and ensuing sub-thread blah blah. Nothing to do with the beeb etc. Just for clarity.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

That was a pretty strange conversation to read but entertaining. Thank you!

EDIT: Truth be told I can't remember myself why I set it but either way it's now gone.

Errr, no .

You may have turned off seeing sigs, in Display references, but you haven't removed the "Fin" in your sig text box in Personal information. It's still displaying.

Edit: On second thoughts, maybe it's still there because you removed it after posting, then edited to say you had done. That doesn't remove it from an original post, just future ones.

Edited by pluralist (Tue 28-Dec-21 00:17:35)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

My ‘giggle’ comment above was in relation to the tangent I started related to Carl’s mystery signature and ensuing sub-thread blah blah. Nothing to do with the beeb etc. Just for clarity.

Replying from the Flat view so obviously didn't pick the right branch of the tree. Sorry if there has been any confusion.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Given that the most vociferous critics of the BBC seem to live on the Rabid Right or the Lunatic Left there is probably a case to be made that the BBC normally manages to provide balanced coverage.

😂 🙄

I do want FTTP but with 80/20 FTTP (reason: no more DLM ever)

Present as post was written before change then, per tag, edited indeed.

Tad quick to try and quibble.

Edited by CarlTSpeak (Tue 28-Dec-21 13:42:32)

Can't wait to get off my ECI cab... finally 1gb symmetrical fttp coming q1 2022 thanks to Netomnia.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

you haven't removed the "Fin" in your sig text box in Personal information. It's still displaying.

I hope only the site owners can see other people's entries in the Personal Information section.
If not Seb & John have a vulnerability that needs closing.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

Tad quick to try and quibble.

That was unnecessary, seeing as I had already corrected myself .

I was not quibbling in the first place. I was (I hope clearly) suggesting you may have made a small but understandable error, and supplying help.

In reply to a post by choppersrock:

Can't wait to get off my ECI cab... finally 1gb symmetrical fttp coming q1 2022 thanks to Netomnia.

I'm glad you said the name of that company, I hadn't heard of them till now, and turns out they are in process of rolling out to my postcode in St Neots too.
Sent some messages today and they told me they are using openreach PIA and some direct buried amongst other methods, they said it depends on the building and its different for each street they cover.

Any further news on the Openreach build in your area? Recall you had correspondence with them which you were quite excited about at the time.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

I do want FTTP but with 80/20 FTTP (reason: no more DLM ever)

I don't know why you have such a problem with DLM, with FTTC it is far better than it was with ADSL, I don't have any problem with it and I am on a long line from the cabinet.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

What's your Three signal like?

SIM-only £10pm for six months then £20. Tethering allowed. I have had that for years now in my phone, and grab the latest deal following minimum term expiry.

Or 4G home broadband at £11:50 plus a TV, rising to £23. Or with a claimed better router at £13 then £26. I have the cheaper one at a previous offer price of £18. Again, that was an upgrade from the original I got a few years ago.

Three signal is pretty good, I use smarty on my phone which is free.
the home broadband from three is not avaiulable here, which is a bit strange since thier mobile signal is here, I get "We're on our way, We're busy expanding our network to connect more homes." when I put my postcode into their website.

I think tethering would be a pain in the neck.

Now broadband offers 12 months at a good price, I may just go with them for 12 months. We will see.

In reply to a post by choppersrock:

Can't wait to get off my ECI cab... finally 1gb symmetrical fttp coming q1 2022 thanks to Netomnia.

I got off an ECI cab, and it's continual banding that lasted for months on end, back in April thanks to an Openreach retro-build.

Having been expecting FTTP our small community in Scotland was dismayed to find the project cancelled (DSSB) for various reasons. We resorted to a Community Fibre Partnership and 37 of the 41 properties eligible pledged vouchers making it fully funded. It then took Openreach almost a full year to deliver but two weeks ago we got the message that orders could now be placed. We co-ordinated the ordering and over 30 were placed over the one weekend. Openreach engineers did a good job and 21 connections went live, many on Christmas Eve itself. Don't tell me that people don't want FTTP! I am expecting a 100% take up of those who pledged by early January. The missing 4 from those eligible don't have or need any broadband service for various reasons. The CFP is a slow process with poor communications from Openreach but the guys who do the actual work are very good and helpful. The connections are mainly overhead from poles with a few underground ducts. One property, way off road, needed over 800m of new overhead fibre. Full marks to the guys that put in a lot of effort getting people connected in time for Christmas.

That sounds like you checked the 5G availability. Not the 4G .

We recently got 5G, which works on my phone as long as I'm on the mast side of the house. Downstream over 500Mbps, but upstream dreadful. Between 2 and 5.

4G is fine, as per my sig, which is why I suggested it.

I live in an area which had an FTTP infill around 12 months ago. The take up has been poor even though the FTTC speeds are around 25-30Mbps.

A lot of people don't care how fast it is, as long as it is reliable and will only upgrade when their ISP suggest it to them or it is cheaper.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by adslmax:

I do want FTTP but with 80/20 FTTP (reason: no more DLM ever)

I don't know why you have such a problem with DLM, with FTTC it is far better than it was with ADSL, I don't have any problem with it and I am on a long line from the cabinet.

My FTTC was banded twice in the last 7 years with Plusnet but once resetted by an engineer after a fault was fixed and other one was remote resetted by Plusnet requested to Openreach. Was banded twice at 74Meg instead of 80Meg.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Any further news on the Openreach build in your area? Recall you had correspondence with them which you were quite excited about at the time.

Funny you say that, one of the "Infrastructure Solutions Executive Level Complaints Team" called me at 12:30 PM today to update me.

They emailed me a summary it says

Hello Ryan,

Thanks for taking the time to speak to me before, I really appreciate your time.

I just wanted to drop you a quick email to summarise our call. I would like to just start out by again offering my apologies you had to email Clive again about our Fibre plans.

Good News
I’ve checked with my colleagues your property and Number (a different road in the other end of town checking for someone else) Road is in our plans to be upgraded to full fibre broadband (Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) technology). FTTP will give you ultrafast speeds by providing a direct fibre connection between our exchange and your home. So this means once it’s up and running you’ll be to use multiple devices to work from home, stream TV or surf the web all with no drop in quality.

Over the course of the next few months we’ll be starting the work to survey your area and looking to start building in June 2022. When FTTP is ready to be ordered, we’ll update our website to reflect this. You will then just need to place an order with a Service Provider (SP) that sells FTTP products. A list of which SPs sell FTTP can also be found on our website.

If everything goes as planned and we don’t come across any glitches, FTTP could be available by September 2022.

Need Anything Else?
As agreed, I’ll now close things here, but if you need anything further relating to this or our plans for your area please contact me.

Finally, you’ll receive a survey following the closure of this case, it’s about how I’ve dealt with this for you.



All the best and take care,

Name
Infrastructure Solutions Executive Level Complaints Team
Openreach

In our conversation they also told me that spine and fibre works were being down by john henry group and that final installs for individual properties would consist of a first visit by a Kelly Networks engineer then a openreach engineer for the cable pull.

Let me know if you have any further questions, but it's all promising.

Edited by RR_The_IT_Guy (Wed 29-Dec-21 14:44:00)

I also got an email from Netomnia this morning at 10AM

Name (Netomnia)
29 Dec 2021, 10:03 GMT

Good morning,
Thank you for your recent contact with Netomnia.
Currently, our build within this area is still within the design stages. We will work to complete and finalize our design. When this has been done, our dedicated team will build the spine of the network within your area. When the spine has been built we can begin to offer a suggested go live date for your community as we are able to calculate the remaining timescale for the infrastructure build.
Please be advised these dates may not be available until the beginning to middle of next year, 2022.
As our build progresses we will keep the community informed by providing dates and having signage displayed in and around the community.
Please feel free to contact us over the coming months with any further questions or queries about our build, we will do our utmost to assist you.


Kind regards,
Name
Customer Account Manager

Sounds like you have a little ‘race’ now between OR and Netomnia as to who will be ready for service first. Place your bets 😎

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Sounds like you have a little ‘race’ now between OR and Netomnia as to who will be ready for service first. Place your bets 😎

I bet openreach, not only because I know when they are estimating but also because I have seen John Henry group running draw rope and seen that there is some road closures planned in the year.
I was told I'm getting one of the senior fibre teams for my patch or at least that's what the project manager has on the systems. (I think i met one of them on an FTTP deployment nearby as he said he was on my area soon.

They said some of the other part of st neots i enquired about is getting some of the newer guys
I will be keeping tracks of both parts of St Neots anyway as FTTP is definitely needed at one, sub 30Mbps connection on OR and gigabit Virgin (not that i would advise the person to even touch their coax) (they already have it and it's working on 120Mbps on their M100 however expensive for what it is).

I sure hope get the FTTP on or ahead of schedule as I won't be with virgin from May till i can get some FTTP in place I'll be with the cheapest one month 80/20 FTTC plan.

I personally would have prefered cityfibre over Netomnia but any symmetric FTTP provider is still awesome especially when i heard that Netomnia supports XGS PON and sells up to 10 gig.

I just hope that Netomnia are not digging roads and are using openreach PIA at least at last mile if nothing else as it will cause problems if they need to bring fibre down my drive, three houses shared blocked paved drive, the only way to me is via Virgin Media or openreach ducting.

This does not shock me, OR decided to fibre up remote farms and country lanes then decided nah we dont need to do the massive village bang in the middle of both ends. So they served 5 houses instead of a whole village and your talking 0.25 of a mile either end. I contact OR and asked they said they will finish the rest by 2026. So when they are doing stuff like that is any wonder people cba with the hype.

Lucky you to have FTTP soon next September 2022 but I bet it will pushed back dates if there are blocked duct etc.

Edited by adslmax (Wed 29-Dec-21 17:46:13)

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Lucky you to have FTTP soon next September 2022 but I bet it will pushed back dates if there are blocked duct etc.

As i was saying, John henry group have been roping ducts to my estate and finished a month ago now.

There were no blocked ducts a month ago on the route they will take as other fibre has been pulled past towards rural Cambridgeshire villages. The last openreach guys said to me, it's not a case of blocked ducts in my area, it's more a case of congested ones, after looking down I saw why he said it, he then continued to say, that they could just about get the microduct in but it's a squeeze as there's lots of copper.
I'm not that concerned of in the local estate either, particularly since someone had copper re pull and it was done in a day.

I can only hope that there are no issues, but anything is possible, I know my OR ducting is clear as the Virgin Media guy decided to pull on my OR line then couldn't get it back in so cut it at duct level so I am effectively now only connected to one network until OR decide to either join two cables together or pull a line. Its not a concern yet however when I leave VM it will be a big problem for a few days.

Edited by RR_The_IT_Guy (Wed 29-Dec-21 18:15:24)

In reply to a post by mintminty59:

OR decided to fibre up remote farms and country lanes

Highly likely to be the most needy for better broadband in the area.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

That sounds like you checked the 5G availability. Not the 4G .

We recently got 5G, which works on my phone as long as I'm on the mast side of the house. Downstream over 500Mbps, but upstream dreadful. Between 2 and 5.

4G is fine, as per my sig, which is why I suggested it.

I went back just in case after seeing your post, but nope, still not available even 4G, which is very strange, I can have their portable hotspot thing, this is the text below the "we can't give you what you ask for noticed "


In the meantime, why not try Mobile Broadband?
Stay Connected on the move with MiFi
and Unlimited data.

4G is fine here, in fact, the speed tests on my phone using 4G is better than the speed tests on my FTTC connection.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

My FTTC was banded twice in the last 7 years with Plusnet but once resetted by an engineer after a fault was fixed and other one was remote resetted by Plusnet requested to Openreach. Was banded twice at 74Meg instead of 80Meg.

oh no, a whole 5Mb/s, that must have been hard for you. I have no idea what you would do if you had to cope with my speed or with someone I know that is lucky if they get 5Mb/s

In reply to a post by pluralist:

We recently got 5G, which works on my phone as long as I'm on the mast side of the house. Downstream over 500Mbps, but upstream dreadful. Between 2 and 5.

This video might help explain what is going on there. https://youtu.be/KzDTZDnLXxY

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

4G is fine here, in fact, the speed tests on my phone using 4G is better than the speed tests on my FTTC connection.

Which network? I have 4G from all four networks in my flat (EE, Vodafone, Three and O2) but they are dramatically different in usability.

I get these speeds typically, but they all can vary up and down dramatically. Unlike my Virgin Media connection which is pretty much 200/20 all the time.

EE = 200 Mbps download, 50 Mbps upload
Three = 40 Mbps download, 10 Mbps upload
Vodafone = 30 Mbps download, 5 Mbps upload
O2 = 3 Mbps download, 1 Mbps upload.

So always try all the networks using PAYG SIMs in exactly the location you need service. (Virtual networks don't count at this point, but may provide cheaper price plans).

There are two places in town where Three have deployed "poles of wonder" providing 5G coverage, one is outside Morrisons (??) and the other on a dual carriageway. Neither covering very many domestic homes.

normally I would agree, but they have above 40 Meg VDSL service here isnt to bad when you take other areas into account. They have missed out several villages along the way. I am on the Amman Valley exchange and you can see the big black spots on the maps surely it would have made sense to roll it out as they was passing (because obviously the main fibre has to pass through the area) it makes no sense. There is FTTP available 0.25 miles away and the fibre passes my front door, but my only alternative is cerbrys at a £15,000 install cost and £150 a month rental. or a potenential 5 year wait for openreach to install a split on a lampost.

Probably did either end to meet a local government contract or a privately funded one . It makes no difference to cost if they did the whole village now or next year, the main fibre is there now, it's the xtra splitters and CBTs that are required for the rest of the village and that will take time. The major constraint is and always will be manpower. All the time there are contracts to meet or more commercially desirable areas to cover then villages like yours will have to wait their turn for either OR or another altnet to arrive.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

oh no, a whole 5Mb/s, that must have been hard for you. I have no idea what you would do if you had to cope with my speed or with someone I know that is lucky if they get 5Mb/s

No it whole of 12Mb/s chopped off with banded on the line because of overhead speed throughput eg: 80Mb/s is 74Mb/s speed test, 74Mb/s is 68Mb/s speed test.

Edited by adslmax (Thu 30-Dec-21 02:12:34)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Which network? I have 4G from all four networks in my flat (EE, Vodafone, Three and O2) but they are dramatically different in usability.

I get these speeds typically, but they all can vary up and down dramatically. Unlike my Virgin Media connection which is pretty much 200/20 all the time.

EE = 200 Mbps download, 50 Mbps upload
Three = 40 Mbps download, 10 Mbps upload
Vodafone = 30 Mbps download, 5 Mbps upload
O2 = 3 Mbps download, 1 Mbps upload.

So always try all the networks using PAYG SIMs in exactly the location you need service. (Virtual networks don't count at this point, but may provide cheaper price plans).

There are two places in town where Three have deployed "poles of wonder" providing 5G coverage, one is outside Morrisons (??) and the other on a dual carriageway. Neither covering very many domestic homes.

I use Smarty, which is on the three network, normally it is around 45Mb/s up and down, just done a check to reply to this and it is 35 up and down, which is more or less what I get on my fixed FTTC network, well down anyway, I get 9 up on plusnet.

I am not bothered if I use a wireless network, my only problem is reliability and as long as I get enough speed for watching 4K, then I am fine.
I just don't want to pay a stupid amount, I want to try and cut down next year, as I have said in other threads, I am not sure what I am doing next year job wise, looking at finding something different.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

No it whole of 12Mb/s chopped off with banded on the line because of overhead speed throughput eg: 80Mb/s is 74Mb/s speed test, 74Mb/s is 68Mb/s speed test.

I still think you worry too much over speed, I can understand if you are paying for it then you want what you pay for it, but these days they go by the average speed, which on the higher FTTC packages is around 66Mb/s, the lower one is around 36, so I am only one Mb/s below that.

FTTP technology is better than FTTC, but for most people FTTC will be fine, My brother/sister-in-law is going to FTTP as soon as their BT contract is up. My sister-in-law is a bit worried about where the channel will go for the fibre as their drive is block paving.

i have not decided yet what I am doing, still got things to look at in my life that is more important than a faster broadband speed.

As has been said its most likely to be either a BDUK funded deployment or privately funded, the later is available to you too so may be worth getting a new FTTPoD quote if Openreach infrastructure has recently changed locally. You may want to consider a CFP if people in your village are all up for FTTP which may be a true acid test of the OP.

Edited by deleted (Thu 30-Dec-21 09:27:36)

In reply to a post by adslmax:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

oh no, a whole 5Mb/s, that must have been hard for you. I have no idea what you would do if you had to cope with my speed or with someone I know that is lucky if they get 5Mb/s

No it whole of 12Mb/s chopped off with banded on the line because of overhead speed throughput eg: 80Mb/s is 74Mb/s speed test, 74Mb/s is 68Mb/s speed test.

Max: you are double-counting. If you had a perfect line, you'd get 74Mbps on a speedtest. On your banded line, you get 68Mbps on a speedtest. Therefore you have lost 6Mbps, not 12Mbps.

Nobody I know would be able to tell the difference between 74M and 68M, except when looking at a speedtest app.

You are in an extremely lucky position: due to your location in relation to the cabinet, FTTC works at almost the maximum possible speed. Since you are on the boundary, DLM has banded you to ensure you get a reliable service without interruptions, instead of a slightly faster service but with line drops.

In short, DLM is your friend, as it's giving you the best quality of service given the copper that's available to you.

sigh

Thanks for your recent enquiry via the Openreach website about getting faster broadband.



I’ve?looked into?your enquiry and the great news is that we will have some fantastic connectivity options for your home. I can see the equipment you’re connected to is getting an upgrade. This will give you the option of ordering fibre to the premises.



Our engineering work is due to start the beginning of January 2023 and will take several months to complete. I’m sorry we can’t give you a more specific date at this time but once the work is completed you’ll be able to place an order with your chosen service provider.



We’d love to keep you up to date with our progress. To receive any future updates please go to our fibre checker, input your postcode, choose your address from the drop-down, then scroll past the availability information and complete the Gigabit Fibre form and we’ll update you once plans change. www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband.

In response to your query, the neighbour's who are getting fibre might be connected to different cabinet/distribution point.

People 500 yards up the road are apparently on a different cab so I am obviously right on the border between 2 cabs.

In reply to a post by mintminty59:

People 500 yards up the road are apparently on a different cab so I am obviously right on the border between 2 cabs.

That doesn't really mean anything. The FTTP network is completely independent from the cabinets (except that the cabinets have fibre connections to the same fibre aggregation nodes that the FTTP network uses)

It's more a question of where your property is in relation to planned splitters and CBTs.

Why the sigh? 2023 instead of 2026 is positive as its unlikely you would have got it much sooner if you'd just coughed up the money for FTTPoD or a CFP.

Edited by deleted (Thu 30-Dec-21 18:01:14)

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

i have not decided yet what I am doing, still got things to look at in my life that is more important than a faster broadband speed.

Wash your mouth out, you are on Thinkbroadband forum where squeezing out an extra bps or two is the 'be all, and end all of everything', more important than life itself. 😜

In reply to a post by burble:

Wash your mouth out, you are on Thinkbroadband forum where squeezing out an extra bps or two is the 'be all, and end all of everything', more important than life itself. 😜

LOL, well i have decided now, Plusnet sent me an offer of £22.40 a month for 18 months, so i have gone with that and stayed with plusnet.
We will see what happens with Zzoomm in the next 18 months, maybe by then they will have sorted out things and be able to offer a service quicker, because at the moment they are not doing that.
People who have been able to order are still waiting weeks after the order have been put in, they are having the same problem as other companies, with getting workers to do the job.
so i will stay with plusnet for another 18 months and see what happens, that is if I am still living here.

I decided pretty quick, I had the email and thought, yep go for it, I can't stand the mucking around and waiting.

I was happy to pay the installation charge, but not the £150 a month rental and only 330 down.

I just dont understand why they stopped that far short so close yet so far and another year to go that little bit further. So I will sub to another VDSL service for another year and re evaluate January 2023

I didnt think it resonable people 500 yards away pay nothing to install and pay £50 a month for 990 , and I have to pay £15,000 and £150 a month.

we have now received the estimate of the charges from BT. These are detailed below.

Estimated Build Cost: £15,000.00

The build charge includes the estimate for the work and materials required to deliver the service. It also includes the connection charge.

Number of premises passed for FTTP: 9

In reply to a post by mintminty59:

I didnt think it resonable people 500 yards away pay nothing to install and pay £50 a month for 990 , and I have to pay £15,000 and £150 a month.

I hope you don't mind me saying but I think you're getting too fixated on others, be positive that they are planning to upgrade you in 2023.

In reply to a post by mintminty59:

I didnt think it resonable people 500 yards away pay nothing to install and pay £50 a month for 990 , and I have to pay £15,000 and £150 a month.

It isn't reasonable. Fortunately for you you don't have to pay that. It will be installed for free.

You would be paying the £15,000 for the luxury of having it quicker, or guaranteeing it will come at all in the case of some more rural properties.

I just dont understand why they stopped that far short so close yet so far

All rollouts need an end point, even if that's halfway down a street.

They are doing a combination of cherry picking the cheaper, quicker, easier properties to deploy to, and also doing entire exchanges in 1 go.
Your area is obviously the former at present and is possibly in plans to do the whole exchange in 2023.

You're fortunate to be in plans in 2023. Many areas are not planned to start their rollout until 2026. Many other areas aren't part of any rollout plan.

I know I get peoples points at least I am on some list and I should be happy the rural part I am in is getting something. Its made working from home hard but got through it.

I will just sit tight and see what happens really. They would probaby see a much higher take up if they targeted the people who have sub 10 Mbps for a long time. Instead of targeting where VM and others already have a 1 Gig service on offer.

But I know they are a business and not a charity so happy new year all.

In reply to a post by mintminty59:

They would probaby see a much higher take up if they targeted the people who have sub 10 Mbps for a long time. Instead of targeting where VM and others already have a 1 Gig service on offer.

Absolutely they would get higher take-up. But they would have almost zero return-on-investment, since the people who take FTTP would be exactly those who were on Openreach copper before: they are robbing Peter to pay Paul. The rental for 40/10 FTTP is only £1.70 per month more than 40/10 FTTC. Furthermore, the sub-10Mbps areas are also the ones most expensive to roll out FTTP to.

In areas with VM 1G service, they are able to reclaim some of the customers they have lost entirely, giving a healthy increase in revenue. At the same time these are the cheapest areas to deploy to, being the ones that VM (or its predecessors) cherry-picked. Once the cheapest areas are deployed, OR will be looking for government handouts for the remainder.

Edited by candlerb (Sat 01-Jan-22 12:23:30)

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

Please explain how FTTC doesn't allow retiring of WLR, reduction of exchange estate and removal of the bulk of the exchange-side copper, with a reminder that recovery of copper appears to be unviable.

Openreach haven’t installed enough FTTC capacity to serve every line. If the remaining lines all need ADSL to provide voice services, WLR can be retired but the exchange can’t be closed.

In reply to a post by CJ8:

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

Please explain how FTTC doesn't allow retiring of WLR, reduction of exchange estate and removal of the bulk of the exchange-side copper, with a reminder that recovery of copper appears to be unviable.

Openreach haven’t installed enough FTTC capacity to serve every line. If the remaining lines all need ADSL to provide voice services, WLR can be retired but the exchange can’t be closed.

That won't stop smaller exchanges being closed.

Openreach will eventually end up with sufficient capacity from the GEA products (FTTC, G.Fast, FTTP) to close ADSL and the smaller exchanges.

The FTTP rollout and subsequent take up takes users off the FTTC cabinets.

If in a few years the only thing preventing an exchange being closed is a few users on ADSL who have no broadband alternative you can bet that exchange will still be closed.
Either FTTC/P will be rolled out to them, FTTC capacity will be added or for some users (particularly some very rural users) alternative technologies will be used.

There will be properties that will end up with zero Openreach connectivity options that need to use a mobile phone for calls, or will need to use 4g/5g, FWA or satellite broadband to be able to make VOIP calls.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

There will be properties that will end up with zero Openreach connectivity options that need to use a mobile phone for calls, or will need to use 4g/5g, FWA or satellite broadband to be able to make VOIP calls.

I was wondering about this the other day, thinking of rural properties who do have a phone line but are never going to be connected to FTTP due to distance and or cost. If Openreach close their local exchange they'll be without a service. Maybe they could have 4G - but anyone who's ever been out on the hills knows that's not really likely. And satellite is very expensive.

But I thought BT had a Universal Service Obligation. Sure, they don't have to provide a new line 10 miles down a dirt track. But remove an existing service? Or replace it with a more expensive option?

But I think I know what will happen in the end...

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

But I thought BT had a Universal Service Obligation. Sure, they don't have to provide a new line 10 miles down a dirt track. But remove an existing service? Or replace it with a more expensive option?

But I think I know what will happen in the end...

The broadband USO already includes alternative technologies like 4G.

PSTN is being switched off in 2025. There are already remote properties who's ADSL is insufficient to make VOIP calls due to line length.
Once PSTN is switched off those properties already have no ability to make calls via Openreach.

At the end of the day it will be cheaper to subsidize satellite broadband (or an alternative wireless technology) than it would be to run FTTP to the most rural of properties.
It will also be cheaper than it is to keep entire exchanges open for the few remaining lines.
We've already seen a number of USO quotes exceed a million £.

The government also already has a significant stake in the LEO satellite company Oneweb. I'd be amazed if it isn't used to meet the broadband USO in future.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Once PSTN is switched off those properties already have no ability to make calls via Openreach.

Yes, that was my point. I'm not thinking about broadband of any kind, just the ability to make a phone call. And isn't that what the USO is about (or was about before broadband access was added)?

There is a shared rural 4G network being rolled out at the moment, which means 4G coverage over the most rural areas will increase significantly over the next few years.

At some point I would expect Ofcom would give permission to switch voice-only services to 4G where it is available. I don't know if the telephony USO even defines that it must be provided by a fixed line.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I don't know if the telephony USO even defines that it must be provided by a fixed line.

Starting at Page 47 in this very old PDF Link found via Ofcom site.

I may have missed it, but I don't see any requirement on BT to provide telephone services everywhere in the country at BT's unlimited cost. I do see that everyone should be charged the same price wherever they are in the UK for a telephony service.

“Telephony Services” means either or both a single narrowband connection at a fixed location to the Public Telephone Network and access to Publicly Available Telephone Services;

(p46)

So as far as I can tell, they're entirely at liberty to provide a fixed 4G terminal. Also of course the obligation falls on BT, not Openreach.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Also of course the obligation falls on BT, not Openreach.

Or is it on the BT Group?? Is that something that should have changed with Openreach separation, given Openreach run the PSTN today, and will be switching it off in 2025, not BT ?

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Also of course the obligation falls on BT, not Openreach.

Or is it on the BT Group?? Is that something that should have changed with Openreach separation, given Openreach run the PSTN today, and will be switching it off in 2025, not BT ?

I don't see why it should change. BT sells services to residential users, Openreach does not. BT also took the broadband USO obligation, not Openreach.

It means BT is free to use non-Openreach services (such as 4G) to supply USO.

Arguably the wording around "Public Telephony Network" might need to change in that document, given that the wired PSTN is being switched off; but in a wider sense the Public Telephony Network will still continue to exist. That is, people can still make phone calls to each other, there's a managed numbering plan etc.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I don't see why it should change. BT sells services to residential users, Openreach does not. BT also took the broadband USO obligation, not Openreach.

Like many, I find it hard to reconcile the simple "BT" with the various divisions, and the Group, and I thought it was group that was the legal entity "British Telecommunications plc".

It means BT is free to use non-Openreach services (such as 4G) to supply USO.

Makes a lot of sense, especially as they own EE.

Arguably the wording around "Public Telephony Network" might need to change in that document, given that the wired PSTN is being switched off; but in a wider sense the Public Telephony Network will still continue to exist. That is, people can still make phone calls to each other, there's a managed numbering plan etc.

I always though PTN was the integrated network including international links, mobile systems, and VoIP, so I guess the lawyers were ahead for once!

candlerb

It doesn't ., there have been lines for years that were provided over radio technologies These caused problems when people wanted ADSL as it wouldn't work and BT's (and LLU providers) order systems couldn't handle this. Caldy Island was a classic case of this. There were a couple of places that had ADSL sub muxes provided to overcome this but these had to have special OFCOM permission as LLU providers were thereby locked out.

There were quite a few smaller Scottish Islands that didn't have their own exchange and used various kinds of Mux over radio to serve them Also a few Welsh remote valleys with radio hops back to the exchange.