Open retch standards

One of our business broadband lines went dead yesterday. Voice was fine but we don't normally use it for that anyway.

Today it's still dead so we tried to chase it up. That took nearly an hour (the usual reason 'not the right reference number' 'we don't deal with broadband' yadda yadda yadda).

Eventually we get through to the engineer and apparently the reason it's not been fixed yet is that they don't have a spare line card at the exchange. Now okay Bicester ain't the biggest city in the country but..seriously how can you not have a spare line card?

Stupid muppets.

Edited by Andrue (Fri 19-Mar-10 12:19:04)

Sure they didn't say "spare Lion Bar"?

Line cards for the DSLAM carry a lot of ADSL lines, and exchange engineers do not always have ability to do this, question is this, is just your port or a whole line.

As for getting through to engineer - whose engineer? The broadband fault should be chased via your broadband provider.

Three months after BTO allegedly spent £10,000 renewing cables locally, my neighbour's phone is crackling again. So far, BTO have sent three blokes (I refuse to use the word engineer) out to fix it, and it's still crackling. The last bloke seemed to think that the fault was due to an overhead cable that was replaced in December 2009. Seems that TDR's are in short supply again ? I agree - they are a bunch of MUPPETS !

Openreach don't do line cards.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Line cards for the DSLAM carry a lot of ADSL lines, and exchange engineers do not always have ability to do this, question is this, is just your port or a whole line.

As for getting through to engineer - whose engineer? The broadband fault should be chased via your broadband provider.

They did. That particular line is provided by BT Broadband. It's a special dedicated line that one of our staff members needs. He'd already spoken to them twice the day before when they said they were investigating.

Anyway the line came back about half an hour ago. So total time to fix a failed business connection = 29 hours. I know there's no SLA involved but that's seems pretty pathetic to me.

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

Openreach don't do line cards.

They don't? Who does?

Whoever the kit that needs a line card belongs to.

So total time to fix a failed business connection = 29 hours.

You wouldn't see a doctor that quick.

A lot of the business lines that BT Broadband sell are just consumer services, with a VAT invoice attached.

There are SLA options available to give 4 and 8 hour response times. Often have to go to a provider other than BT Retail to find out about these options.

Did you mean to title this post "Open Retch"? is it a reflection of the service you've received?

In reply to a post by zebedeee:

Three months after BTO allegedly spent £10,000 renewing cables locally, my neighbour's phone is crackling again. So far, BTO have sent three blokes (I refuse to use the word engineer) out to fix it, and it's still crackling. The last bloke seemed to think that the fault was due to an overhead cable that was replaced in December 2009. Seems that TDR's are in short supply again ? I agree - they are a bunch of MUPPETS !

Are you running a book on how long it will be before they swap the neighbours noisy pair with yours? Given your history with BT it must be a question of when rather than if.

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

So total time to fix a failed business connection = 29 hours.

You wouldn't see a doctor that quick.

Beg to differ - but in response to patient anger and complaints to the health authority here our Group practice has introduced the novel idea of same day appointments - providing you accept whichever GP you get given. Amazing what the modern age can produce huh? But more on topic - I have not been impressed with the attitude of BT to faults, especially intermittent ones. Strange to think just 15 years ago I was so impressed with the Customer handling at BT I moved from cable. I wish I had an option to move away where I am now!

so this thread = a cp takes 29 hours to replace £100s / £1000s worth of equipment in exchange for a service with no sla. therefore the local loop operator is teh [censored]?

1. your blaming the wrong people.
2. engineers dont carry dslams etc around in their back pocket.
3. if 29 hours is too slow stop being cheap and pay for an sla or leased line.

the way some go on you think they had been waiting for an ambulance.

zeb - why dont you arrange to be onsite when the engineer calls and then you can show him how to locate the fault seeing as it is so easy?? you can even show him how to use the tdr.

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

So total time to fix a failed business connection = 29 hours.

You wouldn't see a doctor that quick.

A doctor wouldnt bill you for over a days worth of service you didnt have.....

Seriously what is it with the stupidity in BT defending on here.

In reply to a post by mattpearce79:

Did you mean to title this post "Open Retch"? is it a reflection of the service you've received?

Paying for over a days worth of service which you do not get and any messing up to your business that day plus of missing service causes would make me retch also.

Totally fair Post title IMO.

Edited by deleted (Fri 19-Mar-10 17:16:09)

If losing one component of any business means losing money, you have a backup plan, be it an alternate network connection, or insurance if a critical member of staff was to break a leg for example.

Do the electricity firms provide compensation if no power for a day?

As has been said you can buy a SLA that gives you better response, many choose not to and assume there is no need.

GP Appointments within 48 hours = 80% - source DoH GP Patient Survey.

Openreach LLU Standard Care Faults Cleared within 40 hours = 91.8% MPF and 95.2% SMPF - source Openreach KPIs week ending 7th March.

So clearly Openreach are performing better than GPs in a shorter lead time.

It is also worth mentioning that Doctor's 48 hours do not include weekends and that Openreach figures relate to cleared faults rather than appointments.

For example it would be interesting to compare Openreach repair times against NHS heart, cancer or hip repair lead times.

Do the electricity firms provide compensation if no power for a day?

Yes. You can claim £25 after 24 hours of no supply and £25 for every 12 hours after that. ( claimed quite a bit this winter.)

Edited by deleted (Fri 19-Mar-10 17:36:02)

In which case if its important take a broadband SLA that offers something similar.

Of course nothing stopping a retail provider offering compensation, but with small profit margins on broadband, gestures of good will are small.

If the fault had lasted a week with no service, I'd entertain the annoyance more, but fix in 29 hours is actually pretty good.

Retail providers do claim compo from Openreach for missed repair times.

Of course, in the OP's case there was no Openreach fault.

Edited by deleted (Fri 19-Mar-10 17:44:18)

That's most likely BT Wholesale side of things.

I was going to reply saying well doh, you trying to compare a GP minor visit with a voice outage (emergency) when you should compare with 999 response.

However last year I did ring 999 and didnt get a doctor within 29 hours so I will not argue with you on this one.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

.........

Do the electricity firms provide compensation if no power for a day?

Actually in some cases they do, also unlike BT departments if you have an appointment for someone from an eletricity company to come and do a job and they dont show you are allowed to claim for that missed appointment (I believe last time i checked the sum was £20)
The same cant be said for OPEN RETCH can it?

'Open retch' instead of 'Openreach'.

How very clever, we all laughed.

If this line is critical to your business what's the back up plan if it goes faulty?

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

'Open retch' instead of 'Openreach'.

How very clever, we all laughed.

If this line is critical to your business what's the back up plan if it goes faulty?

Considering it was an issue exchange end it would be as good as impossible for him to have a back up plan......... Infact maybe all these BT fan posts could help suggest backup plans, for the OP, seeing as on the line concerned for him ADSL was dead. If the connection is dead its dead, there isnt any mystical backup plan.

Id also love to know a backup plan for when im working at home and my ADSL goes down for a reason beyond my control and my ISPs........ Im all ears on that also.

Edited by deleted (Sat 20-Mar-10 00:28:18)

Try PAYG mobile broadband for one.

In reply to a post by wigan:

Try PAYG mobile broadband for one.

PAYG credit is only valid for a certain amount of days, you are also cut off if you dont use the service for a certain amount of days (Amount of days depends on provider 1 i know of is 90 days).

Then theres issues if you live in a mobile signal blackspot

So thats hardly a reliable backup plan.................. NEXT?

carrier pigeon...?????....

In reply to a post by djfunkdup:

carrier pigeon...?????....

LOL, Unless those shouting people should have backup plans, can name something thats reliable and you can be sure will work when your ADSL goes down that indeed maybe the best option LOL

yea i think you could be right,

plus i'm sure you would get a good deal on one esp with so many of them being retired now..

plus as far as i no they dont have stm or suffer from contention,noise or any of the other factors that wee hear about..


69 p per 100g of pigeon seed = sorted.........

Wireless by default

In reply to a post by mattpearce79:

Did you mean to title this post "Open Retch"? is it a reflection of the service you've received?

Yeah. OTOH it now transpires it's BTw who are to blame.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

zeb - why dont you arrange to be onsite when the engineer calls and then you can show him how to locate the fault seeing as it is so easy?? you can even show him how to use the tdr.

Well, I would, except.....

(a) I have my own business to run, and (unlike BT) I am fully trained in what I do, whereas most BTO blokes have trouble working out which end of a screwdriver to hold, and....

(b) It's unlikley that the BTO bloke would have a TDR on the van - it would leave no room for the lunch box and mattress. Apparently the guy turned up at my neighbour's yesterday, and he guessed at a few things which might be causing the problem, and replaced them. None of them were connect. My neighbour isn't totally despondant..... he now only has one master socket, where previously he somehow had two (?), and is now the owner of a filtered faceplate, so that he gets much higher bb sync speeds........ when the line isn't crackling.

Never mind, I suppose Open Wrench will find the line problem, when the line breaks completely !

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

'Open retch' instead of 'Openreach'.

How very clever, we all laughed.

Awww... did someone make a joke about your company ? Your company is a joke.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

If this line is critical to your business what's the back up plan if it goes faulty?

I expect he has one - I certainly have, and I've had to use them several times in the past 12 months.

Mine are :

A second ADSL line.
A dial-up modem
2 mobile phones
An Orange 3G dongle and a wall-mounted external antenna.

All (except for the dial-up modem) have had to be used at least 3 times in the last 12 months due to failure of BT's kit.

Edited by deleted (Sat 20-Mar-10 10:15:38)

3g contract or PAYG
Dialup
ADSL - contrary to your outburst, two lines may go down, but as a DSLAM (even if your exchange has a single one) will have multiple line cards the chances of both breaking is less than 100% which you seem to assert.
Satellite
Relocate important functions to another location, perhaps as simple as using web mail from a cafe in the next exchange area.

There is no single panacea, but the solution depends on what someone wants to spend mainly, i.e. how important is broadband access.

Depends on the contract that exists between your comms provider and Openreach. These are negotiable, if your comms provider does not value you enough to suggest SLA arrangements, compensation then perhaps change comms provider, or pay enough to get the personal treatment.

Baiting BT firms is all fun and games, but it achieves nothing constructive.

You hate BT that much ? eeeek.

Can we ask who you work for ... ? I am sure most companies could be classed as jokes but I am guessing if it wasn't for BT you wouldn't have an ADSL connection today.
You could say you don't have a choice.. but can you blame BT for that ?

LOL, not even an Openreach issue if its the DSLAM.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

3g contract or PAYG

Explained why PAYG mobile isnt viable, as to contract why would someone pay for a mobile dongle monthly when the other 99% of time they wont use it?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Dialup

Yeah thata work in a business lets spend the day waiting an hour for the hundred plus morning emails to download.... Ill just upload our new promotional video also....... oh errr slight snag........ ETA to do that 20 hours..... Everyone go home now.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

ADSL - contrary to your outburst, two lines may go down, but as a DSLAM (even if your exchange has a single one) will have multiple line cards the chances of both breaking is less than 100% which you seem to assert.

How does that help a business ran from home? How does it even help if the LINE concerned is the line you have ADSL on and its dead?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Satellite

Yeah we all have hundreds to spend on installing one of them and paying monthly when most of the time when ADSL is working it wont be used

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Relocate important functions to another location, perhaps as simple as using web mail from a cafe in the next exchange area.

What??? Yep ill send an employee to do that now, they can then travel back and forth over several miles handing me emails throughout the day. Mind you they will probably love that, nip out shopping while there without me knowing, take an extended lunch break, oh and ill have to find them a 50 quid to dose them up with coffee throughout the day see the cafe owner doesnt get annoyed at them just sitting there fiddling with a laptop.

Great idea, why didnt the small business man think of this years ago :rolleyes:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

There is no single panacea, but the solution depends on what someone wants to spend mainly, i.e. how important is broadband access.

So in other words there is no real emergency back up plan you can offer, the cafe idea is stupid (thats my opinion) and your other ideas involve paying money monthly for a service you wont use most of the time and in the satelite example would cost more than ADSL you regularly use.

I hope you never run a small business, you will bankrupt it inside 6 months loading the office up with tech which is a waste of money.

As i suspected it was random BT defending and nobody has a VIABLE idea for a sensible backup plan where you dont have to spend an additional wad of cash over the course of a year, on tech you wont normally use.

ALL YOUR IDEAS are only really viable if you are a large business which has hundreds free each year to spend........ For the other 99% of business in this country which is small business, it will cripple them.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Depends on the contract that exists between your comms provider and Openreach. These are negotiable, if your comms provider does not value you enough to suggest SLA arrangements, compensation then perhaps change comms provider, or pay enough to get the personal treatment.

Baiting BT firms is all fun and games, but it achieves nothing constructive.

Why should you have to do that, its law for the electricity firms to pay up if they miss an appointment or you are without power for over 24 (i think) hours. Electricity firms were your example and its clear for them the rules are indeed tougher.

Getting BT to pay up for a missed appointment let alone messing up your braodband for over a day is like trying to get blood out of a stone by hitting it with a wet sponge.

if you are a large business which has hundreds free each year to spend

oooh, not hundreds a year to spend. I am in awe of your view of a large business.

You can't have it both ways, either a) you're a small business running on the cheap on a residential broadband connection with no backup, no SLA etc or b) you're a substantial business with a lot to lose.

If you're so small and cheapskate to do a) then you aren't losing a whole lot of anything if it goes wrong. If you're b) acting like a) then you've made your bed so lay in it.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

LOL, not even an Openreach issue if its the DSLAM.

Who is responsible for BT owned equipment in BT exchanges, green boxes etc then?

Maybe im wrong on this but when the OP said line card i assumed that is BT equipment, which is serviced by Openreach.

I may be missing something though, BT have so many departments to make the game pass the buck more fun.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

if you are a large business which has hundreds free each year to spend

oooh, not hundreds a year to spend. I am in awe of your view of a large business.

No you are just in awe of not comprehending small business doesnt have money to waste.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

You can't have it both ways, either a) you're a small business running on the cheap on a residential broadband connection with no backup, no SLA etc or b) you're a substantial business with a lot to lose.

No idea what you are talking about, My business subs to a business service from an ISP.... Wouldnt make a blind bit of difference if it was a residential or a business package for the problem that occured though...... Part at exchange dead, no new bit available.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

If you're so small and cheapskate to do a) then you aren't losing a whole lot of anything if it goes wrong. If you're b) acting like a) then you've made your bed so lay in it.

Its not about being cheap, its about wasting money, you have never ran a business have you?

Openreach do not do DSL, with the exception of the VDSL cabinets, they do the copper lines. All exchange DSL switches, DSLAMs / MSANs, 21CN kit, etc, are all serviced by BT Wholesale.

Openreach, again apart from VDSL, don't do active anything. They service copper and fibre, they hand off the copper to other operators to terminate on DSLAMs and voice kit and the fibre they terminate and hand over to customers.

If you want to complain about the various departments Ofcom are your people - the reason there are so many is due to requirements for equivalence of access into Openreach.

In reply to a post by CARPETBURN:

Id also love to know a backup plan for when im working at home and my ADSL goes down for a reason beyond my control and my ISPs........ Im all ears on that also.

In my case said backup consists of Virgin Media's cable service.

Even if that were to go wrong at the same time as my DSL I can tether my 3G phone.

Another option is to order ADSL on two lines either from two different LLU operators or an LLU operator and BT Wholesale.

Edited by deleted (Sat 20-Mar-10 13:42:14)

in reality SLA's usually dont garuantuee anything other than financial compensation when it goes wrong. Even then it tends to be underwhelming.

is there such thing as 3G payg? so only pay when use it no monthly fees.

could be handy especially as my router supports 3g as auto fallback if the adsl goes down.

In reply to a post by Pgre:

You hate BT that much ? eeeek.

Yes, I do. And if you had your business and life disrupted by a problem which took 5 months to resolve, with about 30 engineer visits, and which was only resolved in the end by switching to an LLU connection, you would be bitter too. In the end, BT walked away from the problem, because they didn't have a clue what was causing it. I was so angry that I switched from BT Wholesale to a LLU product, and suddenly the problem was no longer there. During those 5 months I was told a pack of lies by BTO employees at every level in the business, right up to management.

In reply to a post by Pgre:

Can we ask who you work for ... ? I am sure most companies could be classed as jokes but I am guessing if it wasn't for BT you wouldn't have an ADSL connection today.
You could say you don't have a choice.. but can you blame BT for that ?

I work for my own limited company, which you would not have heard of, because it is very small. Most companies can't be classed as jokes, because they are nowhere near as bad as BT.

I know of very few other companies where......

Staff are so poorly trained
Communication between divisions is so poor
Record keeping is so lax
There is such a drive to screw the last penny from the customer
There is such a lack of reinvestment in plant

Did you not see the programmes on TV where BT charged customers to fix faults on its own wiring ? The engineer that attended my neighbour's property yesterday would not have been wanting to mess about with cabling that had only just been installed 3 months before, if there was some sort of record-keeping system in place.

Edited by deleted (Sat 20-Mar-10 14:25:38)

In reply to a post by yarwell:

if you are a large business which has hundreds free each year to spend

oooh, not hundreds a year to spend. I am in awe of your view of a large business.

You can't have it both ways, either a) you're a small business running on the cheap on a residential broadband connection with no backup, no SLA etc or b) you're a substantial business with a lot to lose.

If you're so small and cheapskate to do a) then you aren't losing a whole lot of anything if it goes wrong. If you're b) acting like a) then you've made your bed so lay in it.

It's small businesses that are going to get this country out of the recession, so that sort of attitude is not very helpful to anyone.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

Openreach do not do DSL, with the exception of the VDSL cabinets, they do the copper lines. All exchange DSL switches, DSLAMs / MSANs, 21CN kit, etc, are all serviced by BT Wholesale.

Thank you for that information

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by CARPETBURN:

Id also love to know a backup plan for when im working at home and my ADSL goes down for a reason beyond my control and my ISPs........ Im all ears on that also.

In my case said backup consists of Virgin Media's cable service.

Even if that were to go wrong at the same time as my DSL I can tether my 3G phone.

Another option is to order ADSL on two lines either from two different LLU operators or an LLU operator and BT Wholesale.

Why is Virgin Cable your backup service? Doesnt it run faster than your ADSL?

Oh and again hardly reliabe backup plan considering they only cover around 50% of the country.

Edited by deleted (Sat 20-Mar-10 14:51:37)

In reply to a post by zebedeee:

In reply to a post by yarwell:

if you are a large business which has hundreds free each year to spend

oooh, not hundreds a year to spend. I am in awe of your view of a large business.

You can't have it both ways, either a) you're a small business running on the cheap on a residential broadband connection with no backup, no SLA etc or b) you're a substantial business with a lot to lose.

If you're so small and cheapskate to do a) then you aren't losing a whole lot of anything if it goes wrong. If you're b) acting like a) then you've made your bed so lay in it.

It's small businesses that are going to get this country out of the recession, so that sort of attitude is not very helpful to anyone.

Exactly and his ideas, would kill small business not allow it to flourish.
Small business doesnt have money to waste paying for services that will only be rarely used.

Very early startups ran from home which in some cases will go on to do very well and help the country as a whole certainly do not have money to waste.

Hes too busy defending BT and has never ran a business to understand that just a few hundred pounds when you start can be the difference between survival and death.

Edited by deleted (Sat 20-Mar-10 14:52:50)

Understand why you don't like them now .. Thanks


FYI I did have an issue that lasted for about a year. Kept getting line issues etc. Had lots of engineer visits. First name basis with some of them intact.
But we react to things in different ways I guess.

On the business side of things. I know of many companies like that in many of the points.
Sky is one...
Virgin media another.
Certain energy suppliers I have dealt with.
Some banks.
Look at AT&T in the us
Etc

I'd say they tend to be larger organisations where it's much harder to train and manage stuff collectively. Not always the case. I know of smaller companies who would sell thier own grandparents.

So I don't disagree BT are not perfect.
I just wouldn't want to hate something that much.

I was just thinking .. What happens when we need a back up to the water supply
I better find a local lake. And a windfarm for the electric.

I guess it shows how important some view their Internet connection though.

This is why businesses pay good money for dedicated lines/connections and then the sla's to go with them.

Why do I pay for insurance everymonth when 99% of the time I won't need it.

That's what a back up is. Insurance. It costs money though.

but we do have a TDR its on the HAWK tester

but it does not always show were the fault is and thats a FACT

hes right, all companies want profits but BT are extremely agressive in the process.

last time I had a gas guy come round, I had to sign off his work, he also had records of previous visits and no 2 hour limit.

sky are nowhere near as agressive, is evident in that they invest in their broadband backhaul proactively and are to be fair the leaders of uk tv, first with a proper hd tv service as an example.

I would put BT on par with banks yes, thats nothing to be proud off.

the us isp's have a far better record than BT, they not perfect but their quality standards are higher.

Just wondering about talk talk.. we can't really say they aren't aggressive.. ?
I have not yet had BT almost making me stay or move to them with the same tactics as Talk Talk.

But again... issues with many companies just don't think BT is really any worse... everyone wants profits and if your a publicly traded company thats really all that matters (sad I know but its capitalism!)

RE: Sky... They don't really have any competition really... since unless your in a VM area you don't have much choice I guess.
You could say that about BT.. but not so much so now with the LLU's.

Lets hope the FTTC roll out continues around the county quickly so those on the forums here who had had issues get some better connections.

In reply to a post by Pgre:

Why do I pay for insurance everymonth when 99% of the time I won't need it.

That's what a back up is. Insurance. It costs money though.

What insurance are you refering to?

Car insurance... house insurance.. etc.. any insurance really.

...and yet my personal experiences of my last 2 BT outages were a 3 and 4 day wait while BT denied there was a fault on my line which mysteriously fixed itself on the day an engineer visit was scheduled, and on 1 occasion after an engineer called me - allegedly from the exchange - to ask if I was home in order for him to visit. In addition, despite a complete rewire internally and experimenting with both an Internal ADSLcard and several routersmy line has always suffered random drops which are of no concern to BT(whoever). I still have no idea what it was that caused the outages.. strange attitude this, pretty much any other professional will tell you "what the problem was" - even if they know you are not capable of fixing it. It seems that doesnt apply with BT these days - quite a change from the first ADSL issue I had several years ago when a very helpful BT engineer told me that a simple gel crimp had broken my service - progress... gotta love it!

I wish I had an alternative to the BTw local loop, but in my location they have a monopoly on fixed lines and seem content to offer a hit and miss service to a captive audience

Just My Opinion (Based on personal experience).... YMMV

In reply to a post by Pgre:

I guess it shows how important some view their Internet connection though.

Oh I think you will find it important soon enough, when the government force you to use it in all your dealings with them.

looking at their recent behaviour and customer feedback they look far less agressive to me than BT.

Why is it always Openreach that is sent to customers premises when an ADSL fault is logged?

I expect he's using it just because you have a backup doesn't mean you don't then worry about fixing the primary.

running on the backup your service is now "at risk" because should the worst happen to the backup you're screwed so the idea being get the damn thing fixed ASAP.

I hate BT that much too I as the field engineer that I was had to resolve many problems caused by BT over the years many of which saw me dragged out on Saturdays to explain to someone why they could not accept credit/debit cards in their shop or why £50,000 worth of transactions could not poll to the bank or why links exchange would not connect meaning lab results were not transferred from the lab to the gp

If it's THAT critical you have a router with a USB port on it that takes a 3G dongle and on loss of sync auto failsover to that, expensive router and you've got to maintain some form of contract for the dongle but that's your answer (if you can get a signal of course)

In reply to a post by Pgre:

Car insurance... house insurance.. etc.. any insurance really.

Then thats nothing like having to have a back up solution if your ADSL goes down.

Car Insurance the law says you have to have that for starters so no choice and rightly so, if you hit someone on the road they shouldnt have to pay for your bad driving.

Home Insurance is to protect your home should damage occur (or if you are talking contents if some thief or similar nicks things) again thats hardly comparable to having to have an alternative method to connect to the interent because a company provides you with a days worth of faulty service.

Both items you mention are to protect others and property i fail to see the connection between that and having to pay for alternative broadband connection methods due to a company having faults at an exchange, leaving you without service which you pay for.

If someone burns the exchange to the ground LLU and BTW won't help, but then again that's fairly rare....

It's perfectly reliable if you have signal which you'd check before committing if it's for business you won't be going mobile with it so fairly easy to check whether its feasible PAYG would not be the option I would choose for that very reason but there are some good contract deals available and if your link means that much to you it's cheaper than a leased line with SLA

Thats why it's a backup ffs, it's not perfect but it's better than nothing, if you can't understand why someone would pay a small amount of money for a dongle contract for the backup then you obviously have never run your own business.

It's like having contents insurance you still lose everything you had so why bother with it in the first place

It's called an analogy you know it's a bit like....

3g backup would be like an insurance policy, I really shouldn't feed the troll so I shall stop now suffice to say you are labouring your flawed point, you clearly have no real understanding of the matter

indeed

but if they did they'd be the best line cards in the world

who says they replaced anything probably just moved his line and kicked someone else off who may complain less

Thats where being a quality highly trained engineer comes in isn't it?

Yes you can same day appointment or you could go to A+E and be seen inside 3 hours

lecky you can have a generator, health insurance is relatively cheap and unlike BT you can buy it from anyone.

I don't know the exact timing but yes you do get compo if your lecky is off for a period of time

often nor does BT

as has been said several times an SLA means nothing apart from some money if they don't hit it and more often than not it does not reflect the money lost unless you're talking about paying a huge sum of money for the SLA in the first place

LMAO you want to compare OR to heart ops ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!

did you ask for the coastguard rather than an ambulance

In reply to a post by Rich44:

Thats why it's a backup ffs, it's not perfect but it's better than nothing, if you can't understand why someone would pay a small amount of money for a dongle contract for the backup then you obviously have never run your own business.

I run a business and have an alternative method to connect to the internet which doesnt involve any part of BT, Virgin or a Mobile phone company, and for where i work its free should your primary internet access go down (or should i say included in a price for something i have to pay anyway)...... Lets see if brainiacs can work that out LOL

In reply to a post by Rich44:

It's like having contents insurance you still lose everything you had so why bother with it in the first place

Its nothing like contents insurance, contents insurance you pay and things get replaced, so the item you had and lost gets for want of a better word refunded to you...... BT on the other hand you pay, what you pay for dies..... you pay while its dead and are at their mercy as to when its fixed.

Having a backup connection may indeed get you online, but you never get back what you lost.

Thats like saying have insurance, leave your door open for thieves and use the insurance for the sake of having it.

You dont intentionally set fire to your TV, or let thieves into your home, but you are saying in the case of the internet have a backup for when things go wrong, and continue to pay the company which isnt providing...... You dont use insurance and give to thieves also do you?

In reply to a post by Rich44:

LMAO you want to compare OR to heart ops ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!

Thats fair Open Reach and many other areas of the BT empire do need a pace maker.

Openreach own the network from the end user to the exchange.

Fact is. Openreach outperform GPs week after week after week.

Fact is Openreach clear more faults in 40 hours than GP's can even appoint in 48 hours.

Pretty shocking really. If you are waiting for a phone line repair and a referral to a cancer specialist - you could die waiting with a working phoneline.

Edited by deleted (Sun 21-Mar-10 01:36:33)

Tbh my biggest complaint about the issue wasn't the actual outage. The colleague who uses it can always switch to the main office connection as long as he warns us first.

My complaint is really the amount of faffing around and the fact that every time he called to check progress it took fifteen minutes to track down someone who was aware of the fault. It was only on the second day (within an hour of the fault being fixed as it turned out) that he was told it was a line card fault and that a spare wasn't available.

At one point he was even told an engineer would be sent out (although I couldn't see the point given the nature of the fault). The engineer never did turn up.

So basically for the first day he was given the impression it would soon be fixed. Then at the last minute as it were he was suddenly told it would take longer.

What /should/ have happened is that the first time he called he should have been informed it was a serious exchange fault and that it would take a day or so to fix. Instead he was led to believe that would be fixed in a few hours and then had his time wasted when he tried to track progress.

This is a far cry from the kind of support I experienced a decade ago when I had a business line. Recent issues residential users have reported with home faults is also different from what I experienced several years ago. BT support seems to have gone badly downhill these days.

Edited by Andrue (Sun 21-Mar-10 08:34:59)

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

Fact is. Openreach outperform GPs week after week after week.

The fact is that if Openpreach guys put as many hours in as the average GP, we would have a comms network which would be the envy of the world. How dare you even compare Openreach to a profession which takes five years at university, and another three years in training ? You guys are not even First Aiders !

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

Fact is Openreach clear more faults in 40 hours than GP's can even appoint in 48 hours.

Pretty shocking really. If you are waiting for a phone line repair and a referral to a cancer specialist - you could die waiting with a working phoneline.

What a twonk. If GP's used the same techniques as Openwreck, people would not need cancer specialists, because they would probably all be dead before they reached their 5th birthday ! Medicine is rather more complicated than finding breaks in a piece of wire.

Edited by deleted (Sun 21-Mar-10 10:20:27)

Because the broadband ISP has to get 'someone' to look at the fault... why not get 'someone' who can check everything from premises, via the pair to the CP's equipment in the exchange ?

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

.......

Fact is Openreach clear more faults in 40 hours than GP's can even appoint in 48 hours.

I think the numerous forum posts from the past and waiting on repairs, installs and missed appointments would see that different.

Whos figures are you using for these FACTS, Openreaches own I BET?

indeed, things go wrong, happens to all telecom companies.

the problem is how the fault resolution process works.

In reply to a post by CARPETBURN:

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

Openreach do not do DSL, with the exception of the VDSL cabinets, they do the copper lines. All exchange DSL switches, DSLAMs / MSANs, 21CN kit, etc, are all serviced by BT Wholesale.

Thank you for that information

Ah I should mention with the obvious exception of LLU kit.

Openreach provide the power for the LLU and Wholesale along with the fibre for the backhauls but that's where their involvement ends.

This was one of the regulatory concessions for NGA / FTTC - allowing Openreach to operate 'active' equipment for the first time, previously it was all media converters such as fibre NTEs, passive copper loops, etc.

In reply to a post by Rich44:

Why is it always Openreach that is sent to customers premises when an ADSL fault is logged?

Because by then Wholesale shouldl have checked the MSAN / DSLAM and reported that there's no fault on it leaving just the bit in between that and the customer equipment, the Openreach maintained copper plant.

In reply to a post by CARPETBURN:

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by CARPETBURN:

Id also love to know a backup plan for when im working at home and my ADSL goes down for a reason beyond my control and my ISPs........ Im all ears on that also.

In my case said backup consists of Virgin Media's cable service.

Even if that were to go wrong at the same time as my DSL I can tether my 3G phone.

Another option is to order ADSL on two lines either from two different LLU operators or an LLU operator and BT Wholesale.

Why is Virgin Cable your backup service? Doesnt it run faster than your ADSL?

Oh and again hardly reliabe backup plan considering they only cover around 50% of the country.

It's perfectly stable for my needs and the option of LLU and BT Wholesale is available to between 80 and 90%.

The cable is faster yes but I only really use it as backup and if anything really really large needs downloading. It's a backup due to a few service issues.

In reply to a post by Rich44:

If someone burns the exchange to the ground LLU and BTW won't help, but then again that's fairly rare....

Yes well that would also take out any BT tailed leased line. Have to draw a line at some point between robustness and convenience. If concerned about events as unlikely as that one would be purchasing two leased lines from two separate operators such as BT and Virgin Media using diverse fibre routes one leaving via the north of the building and one via the south and neither running down the same or neighbouring ducting at any point.

But then again if there was a nuclear strike none of that would matter anyway...
As you say.. there is always a point that the line gets drawn... and usually more money means it takes longer for the line to be drawn.

In reply to a post by Pgre:

Just wondering about talk talk.. we can't really say they aren't aggressive.. ?
I have not yet had BT almost making me stay or move to them with the same tactics as Talk Talk.

But again... issues with many companies just don't think BT is really any worse... everyone wants profits and if your a publicly traded company thats really all that matters (sad I know but its capitalism!)

RE: Sky... They don't really have any competition really... since unless your in a VM area you don't have much choice I guess.
You could say that about BT.. but not so much so now with the LLU's.

Lets hope the FTTC roll out continues around the county quickly so those on the forums here who had had issues get some better connections.

Hi, there is a TV service in direct competition with Sky and Virgin, take a look at FreeSat the picture quality is outstanding with about 157 channels. I would be very worried if I was Sky or Virgin and providing a TV service.

http://www.freesat.co.uk/index.php?page=Home&PHPSESS...

http://www.which.co.uk/advice/freesat-digital-tv/fre...

http://www.joinfreesat.co.uk/

http://www.humaxdirect.co.uk/product.asp?ProdRef=100...

In reply to a post by E7er:

In reply to a post by Pgre:

Just wondering about talk talk.. we can't really say they aren't aggressive.. ?
I have not yet had BT almost making me stay or move to them with the same tactics as Talk Talk.

But again... issues with many companies just don't think BT is really any worse... everyone wants profits and if your a publicly traded company thats really all that matters (sad I know but its capitalism!)

RE: Sky... They don't really have any competition really... since unless your in a VM area you don't have much choice I guess.
You could say that about BT.. but not so much so now with the LLU's.

Lets hope the FTTC roll out continues around the county quickly so those on the forums here who had had issues get some better connections.

Hi, there is a TV service in direct competition with Sky and Virgin, take a look at FreeSat the picture quality is outstanding with about 157 channels. I would be very worried if I was Sky or Virgin and providing a TV service.

http://www.freesat.co.uk/index.php?page=Home&PHPSESS...

http://www.which.co.uk/advice/freesat-digital-tv/fre...

http://www.joinfreesat.co.uk/

http://www.humaxdirect.co.uk/product.asp?ProdRef=100...

Picture quality on Sky and freesat is identical.

In reply to a post by E7er:

Hi, there is a TV service in direct competition with Sky and Virgin, take a look at FreeSat the picture quality is outstanding with about 157 channels. I would be very worried if I was Sky or Virgin and providing a TV service.

FreeSat is not in competition with Sky or VM. Freesat is a not-for-profit service that exists solely to fill in a few not spots created by DSO (Digital Switch Over). It's just another way to access the same (slightly fewer in fact) free channels that you can view with a Sky box.

It does have some advantages but the only ones of any significance are:

* A Freesat HDR will record without a monthly subscription.
* The EPG only includes things you can watch (Freesat from Sky gives you the full Sky EPG and some people hate seeing all things they can't watch).

There are rumours of a new competitor to Sky/VM called 'Real Digital' but so far nothing concrete has been announced. Supposedly it offers a true 'smorgasbord' experience which would allow people to only pay for what they want rather than having to pick a package which usually includes things you never look at.

Freesat could have been much more but unfortunately the BBC stymied any attempt to add a CA module to the system so Freesat is restricted to FTA channels. That means there's a number of free channels it can't provide (Five was one until a special deal was struck) and almost no space available for HD content. It's a bit of a pity but to be fair Freesat never really claimed to be anything special. It's just there so that those on the secondary DTT transmitters can have more than the basic dozen channels if they wish.

Edited by Andrue (Mon 22-Mar-10 15:08:52)

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Picture quality on Sky and freesat is identical.

Not surprising really since it's the same data stream in most cases. Any variation will be down to the electronics in the box and I doubt anyone can really tell the difference between different decoder chipsets

But do they have Mythbusters for free ?
Or Lost or 24 or Flashforward..

Those are the only things I watch ?? Well Mythbusters and the other half watches the others.

Flashforward is on 5 so yes that is free

My Humax freesat box has a CAM slot

Most freesat boxes seem to put out a better picture than sky boxes HD excepted of course

In reply to a post by Rich44:

Most freesat boxes seem to put out a better picture than sky boxes HD excepted of course

Wow, you must own a lot of boxes and TV's, to enable you to compare them side by side to form that opinion !

T Mobile - don't use dongle don't pay, or pay for a day/week/month you decide.

Brainiacs also know that not all insurance will replace goods with new goods, i.e. some policies assess age of item, and replace at the value of the item, not its brand new price.

So what is this uber backup plan? That does not involve any BT at all?

So lets stop arguing and ask you this...

What should be the default fault repair time?
What should be penalty for going over that time?

Should residential be the same as business? If not, then how does an ISP know you are using it for business? i.e. force you onto their business tarriff if claiming back VAT?

Perhaps a more pro-active retail ISP would have made a difference, i.e. one where you phone them and they have access to the systems that BT Wholesale and Openreach provide, rather than having to find the right person with the right access rights etc

In reply to a post by Pgre:

But do they have Mythbusters for free ?
Or Lost or 24 or Flashforward..

Those are the only things I watch ?? Well Mythbusters and the other half watches the others.

Dunno what you are talking about......

Mythbusters (at least some episodes) is even on freeview now (channel= quest)
24 is rumoured to be coming to an end
Flashforward is free even on analogue on a channel named channel 5

The only real Pay thing in that lot for us in the UK is Lost and thats in its last season now.

In reply to a post by zebedeee:

In reply to a post by Rich44:

Most freesat boxes seem to put out a better picture than sky boxes HD excepted of course

Wow, you must own a lot of boxes and TV's, to enable you to compare them side by side to form that opinion !

Actually hes right (IN PART) older sky boxes (NON-HD ones over a year old) are 10bit digital, freesat (except the real cheap boxes) are 12bit....... DAC. Anything under 40inch TV you wont notice much difference except with snout up against the screen, larger screens though you will notice slightly less blocking to the picture.

Edited by deleted (Mon 22-Mar-10 19:25:37)

In reply to a post by Rich44:

My Humax freesat box has a CAM slot

Yeah but it's not a lot of use.

What I've heard (second hand) is that the BBC have strong objections to CAMs and for that reason there are no encrypted channels on the Freesat EPG and never will be. I think it has something to with the license fee and fears about what the CAM would mean for that.

The slot is probably disabled when the HDR is operating in Freesat mode. Unfortunately due to the way satellites operate at the moment that makes it pretty much useless in the UK. About the only commercially encrypted channels we can receive are encrypted using Sky's system. There are some dodgy ways to use a Sky card in none-Sky equipment but it's a bit of a pain.

Aside from the ability to record stuff you'd be better off in that case buying a second hand Sky box on EBay and paying the one-off £25 to get Freesat from Sky. At least then you get a 7-day EPG and you get a few more channels.

So in simple terms:If you tell your Humax HDR to forget about Freesat you can use the CAM - but there's nothing much you can do with it unless you like 'hacking'. In Freesat mode the CAM is disabled and/or has nothing to decrypt anyway.

Edited by Andrue (Mon 22-Mar-10 19:05:53)

In reply to a post by CARPETBURN:

Actually hes right (IN PART) older sky boxes (NON-HD ones over a year old) are 10bit digital, freesat (except the real cheap boxes) are 12bit....... Anything under 40inch TV you wont notice much difference except with snout up against the screen, larger screens though you will notice slightly less blocking to the picture.

Well I never knew that. Then again all new boxes are HD boxes now anyway.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Brainiacs also know that not all insurance will replace goods with new goods, i.e. some policies assess age of item, and replace at the value of the item, not its brand new price.

So what is this uber backup plan? That does not involve any BT at all?

If they are that clever they wouldnt buy a policy like that in the first place..... If they are not going to replace your stuff no point in having it...... I spose some are happy to have their bluray player replaced by VHS though LOL

My uber backup plan as you put it, which doesnt involve any part of BT, Virgin or a Mobile phone company....... Is called Wireless, provided by the trading estate my business is located on for emergency use to businesses when their phones and internet dies at the hands of BT shambby-ness, which happens alot on the estate.

Gives up with you again...

They would not replace a blu-ray with a VHS, but e.g. a PS3 bought for £350 in 2008, will perhaps only be worth £180 now, i.e. what they think you can get a 2nd replacement. This is why some policies have 'replace with new' options.

You can use your argument of 'if they are that clever' to refer to the ADSL and failure situation. A clever business person would look at the fault repair times quoted, and decide whether acceptable or not.

Wireless to where? How do you know that BT is not providing part of the link in that chain? Happy that this works for you, but many businesses are not located on an estate that offers services like this.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

So lets stop arguing and ask you this...

What should be the default fault repair time?

That depends on the fault and if it is BT at fault......... I dont expect BT to wave a magic wand and fix a billion cables chopped in half by some trainee workman let loose with a kangoo on the pavements.

I do expect them to replace faulty bits in the exchange though (which is what the OP issue was) within 5-10 hours tops.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

What should be penalty for going over that time?

Refund for the period of service lost along with a percentage of that amount in compensation for starters...... If the consumer also pays for additional services from them which are not accesible in that time, the charges for those should also be refunded for the period they were unavailable.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Should residential be the same as business? If not, then how does an ISP know you are using it for business?

A business address for the billing might be a clue.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

i.e. force you onto their business tarriff if claiming back VAT?

For many ISPs the charge for a monthly ADSL connection be it business or residential is similarly priced nowadays, (Ill name a few which are similar in price if needed) so faults should also be fixed in similar timely fashion.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Gives up with you again...

They would not replace a blu-ray with a VHS, but e.g. a PS3 bought for £350 in 2008, will perhaps only be worth £180 now, i.e. what they think you can get a 2nd replacement. This is why some policies have 'replace with new' options.

You can use your argument of 'if they are that clever' to refer to the ADSL and failure situation. A clever business person would look at the fault repair times quoted, and decide whether acceptable or not.

Wireless to where? How do you know that BT is not providing part of the link in that chain? Happy that this works for you, but many businesses are not located on an estate that offers services like this.

Possible that BT are providing an ethernet link to the base station.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Gives up with you again...

They would not replace a blu-ray with a VHS, but e.g. a PS3 bought for £350 in 2008, will perhaps only be worth £180 now, i.e. what they think you can get a 2nd replacement. This is why some policies have 'replace with new' options.

Funny insurance policy then...... Mine goes on value of goods when you take the insurance, and you pay insurance based on that amount, not what its worth 2 years later. You couldnt buy a PS3 for £180 (unless you buy someones ebay rubbish) so they wouldnt be replacing it would they?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

You can use your argument of 'if they are that clever' to refer to the ADSL and failure situation. A clever business person would look at the fault repair times quoted, and decide whether acceptable or not.

Over 24 hours to just screw a new bit in at the exchange to me isnt acceptable, when its probably a 2 hour job tops.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Wireless to where? How do you know that BT is not providing part of the link in that chain?

The company that provides it to the estate is a small business, part of many others in a group which i believe is owned by a Hong Kong comms company (or used to be).... Theres nothing BT about them.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Happy that this works for you, but many businesses are not located on an estate that offers services like this.

Didnt i say there is no full proof backup for everyone? The system on the estate isnt perfect, its faster both download and upload wise than anything BT can offer that area but can be affected by the weather...... The other downside for some areas (heritage etc) is the outside antenna on the building even though its pretty small some would not like it.

Yep... appologies.. realised Fast Forward was on 5.
Never seen any of the new Mythbusters on freeview though.. not unless I have to wait a few years.

But from what your saying.. apart from lost...Sky is dead !
Wooo.. that will save me a few quid.

In reply to a post by Pgre:

Yep... appologies.. realised Fast Forward was on 5.
Never seen any of the new Mythbusters on freeview though.. not unless I have to wait a few years.

But from what your saying.. apart from lost...Sky is dead !
Wooo.. that will save me a few quid.

That depends on your viewing habits. Most dramas will appear on a free platform if you're prepared to wait at least six months. That's always been the case - if you exclude sport Sky has always been about watching it first rather than exclusive access to content. Of late the gap has come down though. It used to be a year to two years wait now it's down to a few months.

Still - most of what I watch is stuff that isn't available for free and a lot of it may never appear. At least half of my viewing is from the Knowledge pack and a lot of it seems never to go free. I think Quest is changing that but they are many, many series behind Discovery for things like Mythbusters.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

the us isp's have a far better record than BT, they not perfect but their quality standards are higher.

At this point I will do my usual trick of referring the gentleman to http://www.dslreports.com

In reply to a post by zebedeee:

I know of very few other companies where......

Staff are so poorly trained
Communication between divisions is so poor
Record keeping is so lax
There is such a drive to screw the last penny from the customer
There is such a lack of reinvestment in plant

Did you not see the programmes on TV where BT charged customers to fix faults on its own wiring ? The engineer that attended my neighbour's property yesterday would not have been wanting to mess about with cabling that had only just been installed 3 months before, if there was some sort of record-keeping system in place.

Diversity training was very useful to us. I started in 79 on the post office and we used to take great pride in our work and training. Now the so called new starters are out on their own in just a few weeks. Most that started same time as me were about 12 months teamed up with one of the old hands who could teach you. Now we are all leaving from chasing targets and bullying.

Taking to other dept was hell you cannot talk about the job to BT side thats could be unfair!!

Record keeping was exceptionally lax did a few tapouts to get records up to date they lost it!!

Screw them for everything, if you get a line coming in that came loose charge them, the cleats were [censored]. Have dept to check you have billed them if not thay raise charge eng gets bollocking.

Reinvestment in plant was not too bad on the side I worked was uplift group still pride left, but moved on to faults wow you get told off for doing a good job NO PRIDE LEFT. Have some photos of line plant its very poor bodge it and scarper should be the name.
Ex Openriech eng

In reply to a post by Pgre:

Yep... appologies.. realised Fast Forward was on 5.
Never seen any of the new Mythbusters on freeview though.. not unless I have to wait a few years.

But from what your saying.. apart from lost...Sky is dead !
Wooo.. that will save me a few quid.

It depends what you want, but ironically its not really the BBC or ITV (as such even though they own majority share in channel 5) which are bringging us stateside programming.

Fiver and Five USA have some great series from the USA now (Fringe, Flashforward, Burn Notice, The Mentalist to name just 4) Some of them are not as bang up to date as what is being shown out in America or on Sky but when its free (ignoring the TV license) you cant really complain about having to wait a few months.

Sky of course still have some good exclusives........ I like the new show Caprica, (took a sneeky peak at that on hulu, naughty me lol) but thanks to channel 5s line up they have taken alot of what used to be sky exclusives.

Incidentally for Lost fans that miss it since it went over to Sky, theres rumours once season 6 is over with it will at some point be re-aired on Sky Three, again thats free on freeview.

As long as you can wait it seems thanks to expanding digital TV services you do get most of what you never did unless you had sky.

I used to pay for Sky but when Freeview and others started getting in on the act i cancelled my subscription services and cant say i miss it really (though not having new Simpsons episodes without it is a bit of a let down).

Sky is essential for sports fans especially footy, which im not, but other than that now IMO it doesnt offer that much, and certainly not enough to justify the cost...... Movies etc are nice but films i really like i tend to get the bluray for the best quality anyway.

Personal preference though, you pay (OR NOT as the case may be) and takes your pick.

thanks will check what they offer.

I dont see anything there thats worse than BT.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

I dont see anything there thats worse than BT.

Even if it was stateside it isnt just one company controlling the whole country like a borg hive.
So if a provider in one area is poor chances are the rest of the USA with different providers is just fine.

So, the backup is provided by a hong kong company. How do they connect the wireless base station to the Internet? Do they have their own private copper/fibre that runs from the base station (or it's central node if it is a mesh network) to an Internet POP? Do they have their own peering? Or are they doing what a number of people do which is get the wireless back to a specific location and then use BT WES/EES circuits to backhaul it?

I just love it that Comcast is good in one state, not so good in another and rubbish in yet a third state.
I wonder if its a long line issue and it goes through all states

If to always meet a 5 to 10 fault fix as standard, are you willing for monthly fees to increase to pay for all the engineers?

Or should this simply be taken out of the massive profits Openreach make? Or should BT wholesale pay?

The splitting up of BT has made fault resolution harder NOT easier

Says it all really

because that's available to everyone isn't it, ffs

The connectivity has to go somewhere how is that mast connected to the internet???

In reply to a post by CARPETBURN:

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

I dont see anything there thats worse than BT.

Even if it was stateside it isnt just one company controlling the whole country like a borg hive.
So if a provider in one area is poor chances are the rest of the USA with different providers is just fine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Bell_Operating...

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

I dont see anything there thats worse than BT.

I would suggest you look harder. Do pay special attention to Frontier and QWest. AT&T are in a similar way to BT and slightly ahead, deploying VDSL 2 and limited FTTP, Verizon have deployed a fair amount of FTTP.

Do note the almost total absence of LLU services, that the newer VDSL/FTTP networks are closed networks is also noteworthy.

Check their individual forums in more depth you'll find none of them are any better than BT and Frontier and QWest at least are hopeless.

In reply to a post by ian72:

So, the backup is provided by a hong kong company. How do they connect the wireless base station to the Internet? Do they have their own private copper/fibre that runs from the base station (or it's central node if it is a mesh network) to an Internet POP? Do they have their own peering? Or are they doing what a number of people do which is get the wireless back to a specific location and then use BT WES/EES circuits to backhaul it?

It is their own private network which serves a small area on the outskirts of London. (Thats as detailed as im going to get on the location, those that want more can send me their personal info first)
There is no BT equipment involved at all.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If to always meet a 5 to 10 fault fix as standard, are you willing for monthly fees to increase to pay for all the engineers?

Id be happy to have a minimum price set for the consumer, wouldnt bother me, im not one of the people that pay around £10 for bargain basement internet.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Or should this simply be taken out of the massive profits Openreach make? Or should BT wholesale pay?

Do both those make massive profit then?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The splitting up of BT has made fault resolution harder NOT easier

I dont see how giving a company various divisions and each division having its own job rather than arguing whos job it is makes things harder.

In reply to a post by Rich44:

because that's available to everyone isn't it, ffs

NO and that was my point there is no perfect backup plan for everyone.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by CARPETBURN:

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

I dont see anything there thats worse than BT.

Even if it was stateside it isnt just one company controlling the whole country like a borg hive.
So if a provider in one area is poor chances are the rest of the USA with different providers is just fine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Bell_Operating...

Yeah totally split up to the point new companies actually own parts now, Unlike BT who still have their name on all the divisions.

same as here really.

openreach can be great if you in a short line area. service varies dependant on where you live, seems even their approaches to faults varies from area to area.

of course there is problems.

its just my view that BT as a company is worse than those companies.

if BT had their own way, LLU would probably not exist, so the fact we have LLU I dont put down to BT's goodwill but rather thats down to ofcom.

Have you checked eg. if their engineers are limited to 2 hour slots, have no notes of the fault reported, charge when no fault is found etc.

For a PCCW network to be of any use then it must link to another network at some point, question is how?

In short you might find it is using a bit of BT kit at some point. Just because no BT shows up on a tracert this is not conclusive evidence to show no BT presence.

Ill repeat it is their own network, just as Virgins cable network is their own, there is nothing BT about it.

There are several wireless providers in this country with their own networks which do not rely on BT for anything.

Fine it is just that it is relatively rare for this to be the case, e.g. a lot of cell towers rent fibre from BT for their backhaul