Why advertise in Mb, when it should be MB!

I was watching a BBC news article today about the speed of broadband and saw a snipped form this website (which I never knew existed) thinking to myself that yes, there is a problem, but no its not the speed. You see its the way in which its measured that confuses me... who the hell knows what a Megabit (Mb) is??

I don't know anybody who measures a file in Kb or Mb, they all do so in Mb e.g. "its a 2 meg file" i.e. its a 2MB file. So, when ISPs say that the connection is 8Mb, they don't mean MB, they mean its actually 1MB!

How the hell is this allowed to go on?!

ref: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12618350

Storage is measured in Bytes, bandwidth / throughput is measured in bits. Just the way it has always been.

So when an ISP says 8Mb they do indeed mean 8Mbps.

If you are talking about a rate then its Mega bits per second
If its a file size then its Mega Bytes per second.

Do people get confused between pounds and pence?

Because transmission speeds have always been measured in kilobits/second (or before that "baud"), which in the days of 1200kbps maximum made sense.

Data file sizes have always been measured in bytes, as one byte holds one character. To measure it in bits would be meaningless.

You have clearly seen download sites giving you the byte speed. That is because they are dealing in data bytes when carrying out the task of downloading an n-MegaByte file, but for specifying the connection speed of your modem to the exchange that's pointless, as no data bytes are being carried. Just empty packets if you aren't doing anything.

No it isn't, storage is quoted in BIG bold letters on the front of a product in GBs:


http://tinyurl.com/6aepfsz

-or-

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bmOq1EqfL.jpg

Its always the same, MB and GB, not Mb and Gb. People don't say hmmm lets divide everything by eight! The way it works is if you ask anybody at work or at home how big x file is they'll tell you in MB or GB, never anything else (unless its <MB and then the d/l speed does not matter).

In reply to a post by tide:

No it isn't, storage is quoted in BIG bold letters on the front of a product in GBs:

That's what he said.

People do get confused, all the time, with MB and Mb, I used to work in a call centre for a broadband company and they always got that confused. Its always the same with you tech types, you think everything is so uncomplicated.

People easily get confused, the very news article mentioned that people don't even realise the adverts mean "up to"... how are they going to know what Mb or MB are?! when 1MB is 8Mb, its a joke.

All people know is that the computer says xMB and that's what they measure things in, every day.

In reply to a post by tide:

People do get confused, all the time, with MB and Mb, I used to work in a call centre for a broadband company and they always got that confused. Its always the same with you tech types, you think everything is so uncomplicated.

People easily get confused, the very news article mentioned that people don't even realise the adverts mean "up to"... how are they going to know what Mb or MB are?! when 1MB is 8Mb, its a joke.

All people know is that the computer says xMB and that's what they measure things in, every day.

Really, storage is measured in Bytes and transmission is measured in bits.

So what you want people to do is then understand that 1MB is 8MB, then to do loads of maths when they're downloading a file online which states itself as 25MB.

people are used to GB and MB and expect to download in that same measurement, the old way was dominated by tekkies, not now.

That is what they may have been trying to say but they were seeming to get themselves confused by the end with wrong usage of b and B.

And I don't care if people say MB or Mb they are wrong either way if referring to a speed. Stick to Mbps and avoid confusion.

Edited by gomezz (Wed 02-Mar-11 21:00:21)

Where does the computer say xMB, any wireless connection speeds reported by the OS are in Mega bits per second.

So your proprosal means rewriting to OS to comply with UK rules.

NOTE: I am not saying people don't get confused, but that is the job of the ISP to explain the new fangled technology. Most people once explained do manage to get along.

Do people understand APR?

That's right, knowledge is power.

Are you not listening, the past means nothing. Its all in MB or GB now, nothing else. Only tekkies dominate the advertising. People do not realise that 8Mb is 1MB, then they get confused. Imagine asking someone to work out how fast a 25Mb line was, well they'd have to divide that by eight; so that's 3.125... so that 3MB... well why not just say so.

All files online are in MB and so it makes sense to measure that way too.

Windows 7 - reports both MB for files, and for things like network connections reports these in Mega bits per second.
Or do you deny that, the same linux, osx and any other OS.

I don't know what APR means, but I don't get into debt or have a house (i.e. Mortgage), but look at this:

http://cl.ly/1n0e0K0W1j3c101p1A0v


What's that Scotch Mist!

From the Wiki article. Note that a Byte is not necessarily 8 bits, even now.

The byte (pronounced /&#712;ba&#618;t/), is a unit of digital information in computing and telecommunications, that most commonly consists of eight bits. Historically, a byte was the number of bits used to encode a single character of text in a computer and it is for this reason the basic addressable element in many computer architectures.

The size of the byte has historically been hardware dependent and no definitive standards exist that mandate the size.

Though quite how you pronouce it the way described ... .

In reply to a post by tide:

the past means nothing. Its all in MB or GB now, nothing else.

Only in your head. The rest of the world knows what's what.

When measuring data storage it is measured in bytes as this is traditionally the basic size of a single stored character. It is worth stating at this point that the 8 bit byte is a convention and not a standard.

When measuring data transmission you measure in bits, as the bits transmitted do not map directly to the stored bytes. You may be transmitting control bits and storage bits. And then is the fact that a byte is not a fixed, unambiguous size.

And I even used to work with systems with mixed-length bytes.

I have not said that computers do not report files in terms of KB, MB or GB.
Computers use both MB and Mbps, using the correct one in the correct place.
Go have a look at the the speed that the ethernet card on the computer is saying it is operating at.

People do get confused, and misuse them, but generally easily spotted and once you explain the case of the B (b) is important then people get the idea.

Are you really that numb headed at your work station that you think people know 1MB is 8Mb, that people do maths to figure something out when they shouldn't need to. The general public, and myself for some time, do not realise the value of a capitalisation.

All they know is MB and GB, so why use the Mb method to explain how fast the can attain a file clearly labelled online in MBs or GBs!

In reply to a post by tide:

Are you not listening, the past means nothing. Its all in MB or GB now

I thought it was all TB now, GB are so last year.

Especially since on some computers a Byte might be 9 bits to confuse things further.

The MB and Mbps is pretty simple, perhaps if they weren't the letter b then it might be better, but in the science world people are used to ensuring units are precisely written.

In reply to a post by tide:

The general public, and myself for some time, do not realise the value of a capitalisation.

We can't be held responsible for your poor education.

I download at about 1.1MB per second, that's all I need to know. The file will only download as fast as it will, but at least the file, listed at e.g. 30MB online will then come in about 30sec. I know there are timers, but when shopping for broadband you don't easily see the Mb or MB difference, its a capitalisation that most people *will* miss.

Its just not what people expect.

Were talking about advertising here, the nation of the UK (in my case) who are not scientists. You know what the public are like, no way are they going to know what a Mb is, I don't really.

If the file is listed in MB online, then in MB when downloaded on one's computer then it makes sense to keep that measurement.

I don't know how to check my Ethernet, I use Wi-Fi, I don't know anything about. All I know is that MB is the file size online and the file size when on my computer, so why not keep that measurement when downloading.

Your the one who says stuff like that from a computer, but when as technical support you meet face to face with a user you don't dare behave like that. That's the kind of detachment you have from society, what people's needs are.

Nobody in the public domain knows the difference between Mb or MB, go outside the door tomorrow and ask them.

But you won't because your too afraid of talking to normal people.

I will say no more than ensure you add your views to the various consultations under way.

The problem is just that, the way things are shown, it makes no joined up sense at all, why a file listed in MB online, then downloaded and shown in MB on one's computer is detailed in transit as something else I do not know. Most people don't look at the speed or transfer, but that's not what I am calling for; its the advertised speed.

If the speed were to reflect the size of the object the it would make more sense. Its like buying a car, they are listed as £2,999 you get it home and your @2,999 lighter but the transaction was calculated in pence... what?!

In reply to a post by tide:

I download at about 1.1MB per second, that's all I need to know. The file will only download as fast as it will, but at least the file, listed at e.g. 30MB online will then come in about 30sec. I know there are timers, but when shopping for broadband you don't easily see the Mb or MB difference, its a capitalisation that most people *will* miss.

Its just not what people expect.

Frankly that is their problem! It's similar to mpg!

You know what, I have no idea what mpg my car does. Fuel is sold in litres not gallons. Do I have to do all that maths to work out how far I can go on a litre of fuel? OMG it just isn't right!

The fact the measurements being in different units bothers you, or other people is not the problem of the people doing the measuring. If you are that bothered go and educate yourself. In my example I don't care enough, I know I get about 50 litres in a tank and can do around 450 miles on that. so what is my mpg? doesn't bother me, and doesn't effect me greatly.

No, no, no! The confusion is right there with the use of Mb, because nobody ever sees a file in terms of its Mb value ever, they see the MB vale of the file when online or on their computer.

A file online is listed in MB, when on one's computer is listed in MB so the transfer -or rather the advertised speed (which is what this is abut)- should be listed in MB to avoid confusion!

As far as I see just becuase people dont understand what a measurement means doesnt mean it should be changed just becuase - same goes for mph and kph, most people have a good idea how far one is but not the other. Surely the problem here is a failiure of the companies advertising the products to adequetly convey the speeds of which the customer should expect.

There's no confusion. There's no need to download files just stream them.

Its going to be a sticky subject if we start talking about Europe and metric vs imperial. The issue of technology is that it is born to evolve and to evolve fast, the reason we still use Mb is because broadband is still new. But it will soon be the case that MB will be what people are looking for, when right now one's lucky to achieve 1MB per second - which doesn't sound as fantastic as the equivalent in Mb.

Streaming in what? HD, well that'll be a couple of MB a second then won't it!

You might have been top set maths at school, but you were probably bullied too. Because most people didn't think your way of thinking was right. Say what you like but there's more of them than you, so they win.

You have to change, or accommodate it.

In reply to a post by tide:

Streaming in what? HD, well that'll be a couple of MB a second then won't it!

I don't know, and it doesn't matter. If I stream a film, I'll watch it for 90 minutes or whatever the running time is, regardless of file size.

Technology does change fast, but often the underlying principles stay the same and have done for decades - if it works why fix it?

Lets not talk politics, lets keep Europe out of it please.

All I am saying is that technology moves quickly and the old dial-up is over and we all use MB now.. did you see light peak, that's not going to be measured in kbps is it. Sure its a 10Gbps transfer but the lead tekkie at Intel showed the speed gauge in the demo video at 1:16 explains things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kidmWiqKzqY


Even Intel know people measure in MBps not Gb. Its got to change, we are approaching the multiple MB speed now. If you like, we're going metric, from inches to metres (if your in the UK)

In reply to a post by tide:

people are used to GB and MB and expect to download in that same measurement, the old way was dominated by tekkies, not now.

To live in the techie world, you have to speak the lingo.

You mean there is a consultation on this? If you are referring to the truthful element of ISPs measurements in terms of actual fidelity then no, this is not the fight I am looking to win.

However if there is a consultation on the issue of MB vs Mb then please do tell me where this is.

Thanks.

Well sure, but when we get 4k video through the likes of Youtube your going to need to know.

All I am saying is that the tipping point is here, and has been for some time now, where we have MBps and can measure in that way. The size of files is routinely rounded up to MBs in value and I think its time to evolve the method of measurement in order to keep up with this.

Its is time to change.

No the reason we still use Mb is because the file system it is stored on on the web may be a 6,7,8 or 9 bit byte, and likewise the file system on your computer could be a 6,7,8 or 9 bit byte. So the transfer is measured in bits, the actual bits that are moved about.

TO use your car analogy from elsewhere in this thread, it's like buying a car, it was £2999 at the lot, you've paid £2999.

But at the shop it was a 105p pound, at home it is a 95p pound, and 299900p has been moved around to get things sorted.

So do we measure the pounds moved as the 105p pound (£2856.19 OMG you underpaid you thief!) or the 95p pound (£3156.84 OMG you've been ripped off!)?

So the values aren't as simple as you want them to be.

As I say, if it really bothers you so much educate yourself, don't moan about it.

I don't wan't to live in that world. If you knew anything about the way technology was really heading you'd know that it was to become less of a hurdle for people. The iPad is the evolution of the PC and thus has been embraced by one and all.

The tekkie world is to become smaller and less impressive, the power has shifted to those who now can use their bodies to walk and climb in woodland, while carrying a computer (like and iPad) with them for simple buy powerful (and once the preserve of the tekkie) activities and tasks.

Your time is over and thankful I am.

The iPad is the evolution of the PC and thus has been embraced by one and all.

Definitely not all

In reply to a post by tide:

Your time is over and thankful I am.

Really? Last time I checked I was only 26! Do you know somthing I dont?!

I accept what you say, but you ruined it at the end trying to put down somebody you must have realised was not going to stay so.

All download speeds are an approximation, at best, while most are just an outright eye-catching lie! There may be a few discrepancies regarding speed, but the median will never not be an issue. So it could be advertised that a connection will be 'up to' 6MB d/l while actually being 4MB+ but that the actual measurement in MB is the important bit.

Nobody likes to be pedantic and disparaging more than someone afraid of change.

Be as facetious as you like, you can't stop change.

I bet.

Surprised that nobody has pointed out that bandwidth has always been measured in cycles/sec, nowadays Hertz, and Hz is roughly parallel to bits/second... roughly equivalent to what used to be baud when I started

Kilo, mega, giga, tera, peta... just a convenience when the numbers get too big for convenience.

OMG, can't you see why Apple's simplistic approach reaps rewards.

In reply to a post by tide:

when as technical support you meet face to face with a user you don't dare behave like that. That's the kind of detachment you have from society, what people's needs are.

What makes you think I work as technical support? For one thing, I patently do not possess the necessary people skills as you may have noticed. And for another thing, me is just an 'umble van driver.

nice to see we missed the real problem.

just 3% get close to the advertised speeds and not even 1/3rd get over adsl1 speeds. Thats a severe breach of misselling in my book, "up to" should at least have a majority of people getting close to it.

Hmm, the style is familiar...

No, all advertised speeds on domestic broadband lines are an aproximation due to the nature of the technology used. However there are technologies that give consistent speeds.

My point stands. The bits moved do not equal the bits at either end. The bits moved equal the bits moved. Transfer speeds are thusly measured in bits moved per second (bps) or if lots of bits are being moved kilobits, megabits, or even gigabits moved per second (Kbps, Mbps, or Gbps respectively). The data is stored in chunks (roughly equivalent to characters) known as bytes, these bytes are typically 8 bits, but are not necessarily so. These bytes are discreet chunks (it either fills a byte or is padded to a byte¹) and so file sizes are measured in bytes (B) or if lots of chunks are used possible kibibytes mibibytes or even gibibytes (KiB, MiB or GiB respectively²)

The fact you do not like these facts does not change them!






1:Actually on modern file systems files tend to be stored in blocks, typically of 1024 bytes, and not in bytes per se, but as file sizes are so rarely less than a KiB these days that's not a huge problem.


2:Windows actually misreports file sizes. A file reporting as 10MB in Windows is actually 10MiB but let's not confuse issues further.

Exactly why I prefer the DSLZoneUK speed guesstimator, as it gives a range

I get the bottom of the range, but accept it's within the range expected for my attenuation

NB: Having just checked, http://www.dslzoneuk.net/ appears to be dead at the moment

I understand this is a problem. But my argument is that the speeds we measure in are not understood by the wider public.

In reply to a post by tide:

Lets not talk politics, lets keep Europe out of it please.

All I am saying is that technology moves quickly and the old dial-up is over and we all use MB now.. did you see light peak, that's not going to be measured in kbps is it. Sure its a 10Gbps transfer but the lead tekkie at Intel showed the speed gauge in the demo video at 1:16 explains things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kidmWiqKzqY


Even Intel know people measure in MBps not Gb. Its got to change, we are approaching the multiple MB speed now. If you like, we're going metric, from inches to metres (if your in the UK)

Unfortunately, that clip shows it exactly as we are all saying. Perhaps your attention span didn't last long enough to get to 1:50.

He showed us a file transfer speed being measured in MB per second, (768 or thereabouts?), as most such software does. He then goes on to talk, at 1:50 about the Light Peak speed being 10Gbps bi-directional, with potential to develop to 100Gbps. Also the spec stand shows 10Gbps.

You'd better email him to put him right.

Facts are not very consistent in advertising my dear boy, however such details are what they, are and they are not required. What is however is the ability to have a consistent understanding of what you download is measured in what you see on your computer.

Again, nobody knows what Mb is, not your mum or your granny or your English teacher. They all know that things are 1.2MB or 3.4GB and anything to make that all join up the better. Nothing wrong with giving an average speed of download in MB, there is no such download speed which is constant, downloads always fluctuate.

Points 1+2 mean nothing to normal people, you are not in advertising, you are not the general public, you don't see how being complex is not helpful.

Here we go with the typical tekkie with all his billy-no-mates around to prop him up because he, and they, don't live in the real world.

The gauge says it all. All the Light Peak advertising was 10Gbps, all the talk was of 10Gbps but then when it came down to it the gauge said it all... nobody really measures in Gbps at all, not even the people at Intel. Not for their public anyway, not for a demo of the technology anyway.

*I did email them by the way, on this very issue as soon as I saw this*

Why would he have a gauge that showed in MBs what the advertising said in Gb, because of the obvious.

Listen, discussion is one thing but sarcastic comments are another. I can beat the best of them (read this thread in its entirety).

You know as well as I do this is not mIRC.

I'm always ahead on these things. It happens every time, you'll see, we will end up measuring in MB.

(Ideally I'd like not to have to measure at all, I'd like a Fibre Optic connection, but just for now lets make things make more sense)

In reply to a post by tide:

Well sure, but when we get 4k video through the likes of Youtube your going to need to know.

Why? What will drive this need?

In reply to a post by tide:

I can beat the best of them

Definitely a familiar style

4k feeds are extremely demanding, HD will then be measured in MBps.

I'll probably be shot down for saying this, but perhaps BE have the correct approach as they use "meg" which could be translated as either depending on the individual

It doesn't affect the running time though. 1 hour SD is still 1 hour HD

In reply to a post by tide:

Listen, discussion is one thing but sarcastic comments are another. I can beat the best of them (read this thread in its entirety).

You know as well as I do this is not mIRC.

Well the first personal insult seemed to come from you :- "Are you really that numb headed at your work station"
followed by:-
"That's the kind of detachment you have from society"
"you won't because your too afraid of talking to normal people"
"You might have been top set maths at school, but you were probably bullied too"
"my dear boy"
"Here we go with the typical tekkie with all his billy-no-mates around to prop him up because he, and they, don't live in the real world".

In reply to a post by tide:

Listen, discussion is one thing but sarcastic comments are another.

If I were to do sarcasm, you would notice ... or perhaps not ...

I've got everyone against me, which is nothing new, but the idea that all of you tekkies are just numb headed and unable to appreciate the need for change makes things seems desperate. It just cannot go on that Mb is used for the public, maybe in brackets after MB but not as the definition of what your going to get.

So it woks both ways.

Buffering wise it will.

Well there you go, prime example, meg, Mb, MB... its all confusing. What needs to be agreed is that MB is used, the public will not have to be retrained in anything because they don't know anyway. All they know is that the 1.2MB Word document they have will be zipped in little over a second on a 1MB line.

..well done by the way, first open minded comment to be made.

In reply to a post by tide:

The tekkie world is to become smaller and less impressive, the power has shifted to those who now can use their bodies to walk and climb in woodland, while carrying a computer (like and iPad) with them for simple buy powerful (and once the preserve of the tekkie) activities and tasks.

Heh!

Be sure not to bump into a mobile network mast when in the woods.

What do you think 'we techies' do all day? Some of us think nothing of strapping on 60lbs (that's old speak for weight) and walking around the hills for a few days. I wouldn't dream of taking a phone with me, as I'm not a worthless poser who needs the electronic Mummy wherever I go.

What do you think will happen if the techies disappear? No new PCs. No 4G and 5G and other G networks for your iWantanewtoynow! No IPv6 for all the users out there. It's not as if the stuff exists and therefore it runs. The food needs heating...you know what a cooker is, right? It's that thing the clever female (occasionally male) mages use instead of the microwave (more techie stuff).

In reply to a post by tide:

Your time is over and thankful I am.

Just getting up to speed. Be good for another 30 or 40 years before I retire. How old do you reckon 'us techies' are?

That's nothing.

The other day I downloaded a Meg at 6.5 Meg while reading my horoscope by Mystic Meg.

(Unless you're proficient in the way of 'magical techies', you won't have a clue about that)

CAP - reviewing broadband advertising - if it is a real issue with lots of problems which OCP should have noticed by now then it will recevei the attention

In reply to a post by tide:

Buffering wise it will.

It doesn't matter what you measure it in, it will either buffer or it won't. If HD buffers, I'll watch it in SD. All that is important is the streaming, not the amount of data. The only time the amount is important is if you want to store it, and storage is so cheap now for so much, that doesn't matter either.

In reply to a post by billford:

Definitely a familiar style

Hmmm.

OMG, can't you see why Apple's simplistic approach reaps rewards.

Facts are not very consistent in advertising my dear boy

Here we go with the typical tekkie with all his billy-no-mates around to prop him up because he, and they, don't live in the real world.

I've got everyone against me, which is nothing new, but the idea that all of you tekkies are just numb headed and unable to appreciate the need for change makes things seems desperate.

If I guess who do I get ten quid?

I must admit, I wish his apple comment had been in the first post. I could have saved myself a few minutes and enjoyed the long, loud laugh.

If showing the MB when down loading it is usually shown as MB/sec since it is over a time frame, and some software shows both Mbps and MB/sec the choice is the software authors.

Selling ADSL hardware as capable of 1MB/sec is not going to happen due to the international market that things are sold in, i.e. would require a world wide change

4k what? Not everyone is a TV engineer so most have no idea what 4k is

Sorry but 1080p is already 1.6Gbps and that is how media industry express it.

What speed do you think DV25 is?

kilometres obviously

e.g "I'm entering a 4k race"

In reply to a post by camieabz:

If I guess who do I get ten quid?

I don't see why not... as long you don't expect it to come from me

MB means nothing

MB/sec means something when talking about a transfer rate

Well that would be the common sense approach wouldn't it.

As soon as Apple is mentioned smug types from the tekkie crowd crow and crow, with their mangled life which is full of avoidable computer hassle. But who's making money, in the recession, hand over first while others are severely struggling.

Not so funny now is it, when you can't see the woods for the trees. People don't like overcomplicated routes to their destination, so this one must change.

This is not an international issue, its one which will begin in the UK, if possible, and then spread. That is my line anyway.

And its something which is regulated in every country anyway, advertising standards are such that they differ everywhere. So, here in the UK we could enforce our ISPs to show speeds in MB without request to any other country.

In reply to a post by tide:

Well that would be the common sense approach wouldn't it.

Who would be first to start advertising 4M instead of 30M? It's a numbers game and the biggest number wins.

For your reading pleasure:

http://youtube-global.blogspot.com/2010/07/whats-big...

Are we talking Metres now?

Everything is "already" until it "becomes".

So you think legislation is the key - how very European

Rubbish. Do you display icons in 32x32, no, you have them in 128x128. Nobody can use that resolution now, which means that high resolutions will be the defacto and in order to achieve those one must have a compatible connection in order to stream them.

Quite. Out of interest how far do you live from London?

In reply to a post by tide:

advertising standards are such that they differ everywhere.

We love standards, that's why we've got so many of them

That is irrelevant. National fibre optic lines are to be laid. But until then the issue of speed will continue to baffle people with irregular measurements used - one's people do not understand.

Once again, I don't know and don't care. The only use is for comparison not for measurement.

Where is the word "legislation" in any one of my replies.

No it's not. I wondered if you answer in metres or miles?

If You don't care, then the rest will not. But in your position it is for you to be just the opposite, to improve things for others so they do not have to care themselves.

Right now, nobody cares that the measurement is not joined up and misleading.

Right where you said "enforce".

In reply to a post by tide:

to improve things for others so they do not have to care themselves.

Oh gawd, a do-gooder... that fits.

Which of course I didn't.

They will only care if it's important and because they don't, it means it isn't.

You are in the wrong world if you think computing is about anything else.

Go back to sleep.

Right and the review by Ofcom about misleading speeds is nothing like what I am referring to?! Its precisely this setup of speeds in the double digits which confuses people when they think they're getting MB!!

Constructive.

In reply to a post by tide:

Which of course I didn't.

In reference to forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/3974560-re-why-advertise-in-mb-...:

So, here in the UK we could enforce our ISPs to show speeds in MB without request to any other country.

In reply to a post by tide:

Which of course I didn't.

Of course you did

In reply to a post by tide:

This is not an international issue, its one which will begin in the UK, if possible, and then spread. That is my line anyway.

And its something which is regulated in every country anyway, advertising standards are such that they differ everywhere. So, here in the UK we could enforce our ISPs to show speeds in MB without request to any other country.

In reply to a post by tide:

Right and the review by Ofcom about misleading speeds is nothing like what I am referring to?! Its precisely this setup of speeds in the double digits which confuses people when they think they're getting MB!!

Ofcom are moaning about the use of "up to"

Once again missing the point. The idea that a holiday needs to be the one time when a computer is absent from one's life proves how inundated your tech currently world is. I am talking about freedom of movement, with technical power, on the move. This all requires the advances we are just making now, so we are getting there, but that means then more time in the wild, out of the office. Something done everyday, not just a holiday.

You'll observe the shift to organic technology where the computer is hidden in clothing, closer than you think. The idea is to make things more natural, easier. You must realise this. One hurdle will be to simplify things like how we measure download speeds (or, to make them irrelevant).

Your going on about how young you are, but your talking like an old man, stuck in your chair - its just everything is done quicker and earlier these days. Have more imagination. Its funny as I'm reading this with something I did just prepare on our gas cooker, notice how I didn't reply for about an hour.

All you techies will remain, but the power you had will not, every release of software give some of it to normal people, they will inherit it all one day and you'll be in the minority scratching your heads as to how computer are meant to work.

So where is the word "legislation" like you promised?

That word was meant to come before a certain other, time for a little more homework on your part(s).

Which is in direct relation to misleading speeds advertised, which for the normal consumer will ultimately lead to the measurement used.

In reply to a post by tide:

All you techies will remain, but the power you had will not, every release of software give some of it to normal people

Who writes the software? Who designs the new hardware?

You can't enforce without legislation.

In reply to a post by tide:

That word was meant to come before a certain other

Yeah, right. Wriggle away...

time for a little more homework on your part(s).

Or a little more attention and less hysteria on your part...

In reply to a post by tide:

I was watching a BBC news article today about the speed of broadband and saw a snipped form this website (which I never knew existed) thinking to myself that yes, there is a problem, but no its not the speed. You see its the way in which its measured that confuses me... who the hell knows what a Megabit (Mb) is??

I don't know anybody who measures a file in Kb or Mb, they all do so in Mb e.g. "its a 2 meg file" i.e. its a 2MB file. So, when ISPs say that the connection is 8Mb, they don't mean MB, they mean its actually 1MB!

How the hell is this allowed to go on?!

ref: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12618350

I see your point and it would probably be simpler but at the same time, people using technology need to acquaint themselves with the relevant terminology and standards.

While this whole thread has been an interesting read...I don't see how people can't meet somewhere in the middle.

Say "(up to)* 40Mbit/sec (approx 5MB/sec)"

Not exactly taxing on anyone...just a few extra words. Meanwhile people should be better educated so that they're at least literate in the terms being discussed.

* Hopefully up to terminology dies a quick death.

In reply to a post by tide:

notice how I didn't reply for about an hour.

Weren't you around? I didn't notice.

But that's like listing inches along with millimetres. We've had enough of one, don't need it anymore. It could be that both are shown and I was the first to advocate this (in light of the response I received), but its undoubtedly an uninformed world. So, by that definition, MB will win.

After all, if its listen in MB, can't you tekkies do the math!

Right, so I didn't say it then did I.

Err, yes you can, its called guidelines. I've had a belly full of legislation, but rules-to-follow should be revised in order to better harmonise with those measurements in greater use. We are talking about the public here, we are of course catering for the least informed.

You really have demonstrated your ignorance. It is of a level similar to that shown by marketing people.

The data is fed in a serial fashion one bit at a time and as such can only be bits per second, kilobits, megabits or gigabits and never Bytes. A Byte is parallel data - that is with all bits present at the same time and it is totally illogical to use a speed rating in Bytes and where do they define the number of bits in a Byte? Is it 4? 8? 12? 16? 24? 32? - 8 may be normal but the others have all been used to0.

If people want to use technology they need to accept the terminology used with that technology and not try to invent an inaccurate variant of their own.

I think your deluded, the hunt was on for my mentioning of the word "legislation", which never materialised.. certainly not from my accuser. Simply that one cannot, supposedly, enforce anything without it. Oh really, well read my latest post to them ...all about guidelines....

In reply to a post by tide:

Err, yes you can, its called guidelines.

And if someone ignores the guidelines...?

To guide is not to enforce

You really have demonstrated your ignorance.

My god, no truer words spoken. This then followed by a mathematical demonstration of what the formula to laughter is...

Honestly, open your eyes and look at the hottest trends in computing, its all about beauty and simplicity, things which just work and make sense. Mb do not have any place in the real world of broadband advertising to families so long as files are quoted on the internet in MB and on computers.

Wake up!

In reply to a post by tide:

legislation ... Simply that one cannot, supposedly, enforce anything without it.

Yup, you're getting there, just a little more thought is all you need

In reply to a post by tide:

its all about beauty and simplicity, things which just work and make sense.

Who designs them? Who makes them work?

With such tight profit margins and topical debate being as red hot as it can be with regard to misleading the public out of money companies are given guidelines so as to free them from extra red tape (your legislation) while also providing room for manoeuvre in order to compete.

In short the guidelines are there for all, if grossly overdressed then public scorn could lead to nothing but a dip in profits.

Welcome to the world of right wing society, where rules need only be drafted into guidelines so business and customers don't suffer.

And when those files are downloaded from the internet, they are done so in bits

Missing the point again, no wonder this thread is the length it is. People looking at it must think it so interesting, only to open it up to ill throughout posts.

The point was that I never mentioned legislation, and that no guidelines (attention) can be enforced without legislation. Not so, not in the free market - which is exactly where ISPs reside, even BT.

I thought I'd craft something eloquent in that previous post to you, don't know why I bothered.

Blimey, so many angles in this thread my frontal lobes have melted. All I can think of is Meg and Mog!

In reply to a post by tide:

With such tight profit margins and topical debate being as red hot as it can be with regard to misleading the public out of money companies are given guidelines so as to free them from extra red tape (your legislation) while also providing room for manoeuvre in order to compete.

In short the guidelines are there for all, if grossly overdressed then public scorn could lead to nothing but a dip in profits.

Welcome to the world of right wing society, where rules need only be drafted into guidelines so business and customers don't suffer.

The style is further confirmed

I'll stop now... checking the reaction to gentle poking with a stick has provided ample evidence.

If the guidelines are broken the competition will enforce them on those offending them. Its the market place rules, less red tape - especially on the rapidly evolving technology sector.

Who fixes it when it goes wrong?

I'm the one with a full belly right now, of my own (skilled) labour.

Increasingly dictated by normal people through iOS incase you hadn't noticed, and with greater success. Like I said you will remain, but you don't design things as much as you used to - notice how UIs are more natural, more beautiful now, its no accident.

In reply to a post by nredwood:

Who fixes it when it goes wrong?

Oh, things never go wrong in the la-la world that some people inhabit. And have inhabited for years.

Those who know how, its not like they're to disappear. But those who make them fit for the pubic are not the same anymore, this isn't the 1970s darling!

I've not had a severe crash in OS X for donkeys, can't say the same for Windows. You might use Linux but if you admit that then you admit defeat for this is a debate fr real people.

That made me laugh

My younger sister loved it, so used to watch it quite a bit

You are the misfit, that smiley face for a post icon. Its a one man struggle here, but I love it and I've not lost a single point. If you made it that far then you'll have realised that. I'm battling the forces of the blinkered status quo who can't accept change and some only all of 26 years, too sad for words.

Thanks for participating!

In reply to a post by tide:

I've not had a severe crash in OS X for donkeys, can't say the same for Windows.

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/3974559-w...

In reply to a post by tide:

As soon as Apple is mentioned smug types from the tekkie crowd crow and crow, with their mangled life which is full of avoidable computer hassle. But who's making money, in the recession, hand over first while others are severely struggling.

Not so funny now is it, when you can't see the woods for the trees. People don't like overcomplicated routes to their destination, so this one must change.

Apple = Expensive pose equipment for the most part. Fashion statement, rather than statement of intent (Apple techies aside ).

Not so funny now? What am I a MS or Intel rep now? Ooh, look at the time...March already. Soon be time for you to spring clean that bridge.

In reply to a post by tide:

But those who make them fit for the pubic are not the same anymore, this isn't the 1970s darling!

But there were a lot of pubes displayed in the 1970s.

Technically, but people are not computers. They need to know, easily, what they are getting, that can only be done by comparing to present knowledge - MB. Everything is in MB/GB/TB.

Ive et al, and he's no blinkered square.

I'm enjoying this- it's just like old times, isn't it?

You might have well written that in French it made so little sense in the language of the board.

If you times are like this then at least you know humility as this can only end in the defeat of your argument(s).

In reply to a post by tide:

If you times are like this then at least you know humility as this can only end in the defeat of your argument(s).

It never did before- all that happened was that you stopped posting

You and I are not businesses, we write the guidelines if that is your analogy.

Whoa tide.

Turn back, retreat!

This is my first appearance on the board. I've never been on before the last 24h period.

I feel like I've missed somthing here...

Yes, advertising standards have changed.

In reply to a post by tide:

But that's like listing inches along with millimetres. We've had enough of one, don't need it anymore. It could be that both are shown and I was the first to advocate this (in light of the response I received), but its undoubtedly an uninformed world. So, by that definition, MB will win.

After all, if its listen in MB, can't you tekkies do the math!

But that's not what you're saying.

You can say something is 25mm long or 1 inch long. It's just some of different ways of expressing the same thing - length in this instance.

But in this discussion you want to take a unit of information (bytes), in other words their size, and use this as the measurement of bandwidth or, to be simple, speed over any given time.

As I said in my other post, I see the use from a purely practical point of view but it would be shoddy to dispense with the actual "true" measuring standard.

Also note that there is no defined meaning of a "byte". We have a de-facto one but you'd need it in cement first before even entertaining the idea further.

Or we could just change everything so the size is also in bits. Eg "My connection runs at 6Mbit per second and this MP3 is 32Mbit (4MB) so it'll take me a shade over 5 seconds"

Edited by orly (Thu 03-Mar-11 00:58:02)

In reply to a post by tide:

You and I are not businesses, we write the guidelines if that is your analogy.

And who enforces these guidelines? Some organisations are big enough to ride out market forces.

In reply to a post by tide:

This is my first appearance on the board. I've never been on before the last 24h period.

Yeah, right.

Never believe everything you read on the internet.

In defence of my position I sight the future, I cannot run away from it, this session has been useful, almost exhausted of opposing points.

In reply to a post by tide:

I sight the future, I cannot run away from it,

Actually, you can - but you'd have to run very fast. Almost at the speed of light infact...

In reply to a post by huwwatkins:

I feel like I've missed somthing here...

So has everyone else.

Nobody ever reads these threads in their entirety, unless they really care. So, to recap, the issue is that normal people know MB as the measurement of a files size based on files (over 1MB) being labeled universally online and locally (on one's computer) in this manner. Thus the idea of ISPs advertising their broadband speeds in the Mb range alludes common sense, as many are caught out by the fact that 1MB is 8Mb.

That is the real misleading factor in internet advertising, brought about by the current Ofcom irritation with ISPs (fuelled no doubt by either complaints or surveys of confused customers/citizens) rather than the crux of the problem, which you have just read about.

Normal people should not have to divide anything by a factor of eight in order to understand the true advertised speed of a connection.

I pray fibre optics are round the corner.

In reply to a post by tide:

Normal people should not have to use their brain in order to understand the true advertised speed of a connection.

I pray fibre optics are round the corner.

I corrected this for you.

Why you allude to common sense eludes me.

In reply to a post by huwwatkins:

In reply to a post by tide:

Normal people should not have to use their brain in order to understand the true advertised speed of a connection.

I pray fibre optics are round the corner.

I corrected this for you.

Normal people have no idea what speed they are getting, nor do they care.

To most, sometimes the internet is fast, other times it is slow.

*Thank you you for deciphering my previous post, not the most lucid.*

Your concerns regarding the faithfulness of fact, the absolute, is well meaning but increasingly irrelevant in a network of peaks and troughs. One which caters even poorly for those best catered for, at differing times. So there can be no absolute, but as close as it can be calculated, in real world terms, it must be in a form of which people can relate to.

People are people, not computer experts. Which places the onus on you to read the small print, where I expect such details to reside. I am,now, not against, the idea of using Mbits as the measurement if that's what you want, but for most they measure in something which I doubt will be changed.

Its too far gone. Mb is the dinosaur now, that is the last tree to fell.

Believe what you want, this is what I am telling you. If you read anything more into this then I'll have to ignore your posts as a mater of course, I'm only interested in debate on this issue and debate to disgrace my argument.

Which has yet to materialise, to the degree of which it was originally intended - i.e. for the general public as an aid, and with the general public there is a lot of flexibility.

You mean like Microsoft, well then the competition commission is called in. But, alas, in the ISP arena there are no monopolies, anymore.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by huwwatkins:

In reply to a post by tide:

Normal people should not have to use their brain in order to understand the true advertised speed of a connection.

I pray fibre optics are round the corner.

I corrected this for you.

Normal people have no idea what speed they are getting, nor do they care.

To most, sometimes the internet is fast, other times it is slow.

I agree - although most of the time its more slow than fast where I am!

Common sense is all people want from advertising, the best advertising aimed to deceive will not trump that which advertises to genuinely inform.

Except in a communist environment.

In reply to a post by tide:

I'm only interested in debate on this issue

Not one of your posts has invited debate, they've simply been the statement of someone whose ego is such that his opinion is RIGHT.

Further confirmation of the style.

Edited by billford (Thu 03-Mar-11 01:10:09)

In reply to a post by tide:

Nobody ever reads these threads in their entirety, unless they really care. So, to recap, the issue is that normal people know MB as the measurement of a files size based on files (over 1MB) being labeled universally online and locally (on one's computer) in this manner. Thus the idea of ISPs advertising their broadband speeds in the Mb range alludes common sense, as many are caught out by the fact that 1MB is 8Mb.

That is the real misleading factor in internet advertising, brought about by the current Ofcom irritation with ISPs (fuelled no doubt by either complaints or surveys of confused customers/citizens) rather than the crux of the problem, which you have just read about.

Normal people should not have to divide anything by a factor of eight in order to understand the true advertised speed of a connection.

I pray fibre optics are round the corner.

But you still miss the point. The size of something is different from the speed of something else. They're completely distinct things.

That was rude.

Typical of the type of person who can probably muster less virtual Facebook friends than those in real life.

Do you really think people divide something by eight, ever. Have you ever considered people don't know that they have to.

There is a real problem with broadband advertising and nothing you have said has made it any easier, you've provided no better alternative o something which patently does not work.

Fine, but they do quote numbers. For that I correct you. Not in malice, only in fact, they do have an idea, but its the wrong one. Much like environmentalists that quote ill researched statistics of a 30% reduction in this or that, but 30% of what?!

There needs to be a base element, something to measure against that all normal people are familiar with and that sir would be the all to familiar Megabyte.

Then read, contribute and enlighten yourselves.

Not in simplistic terms, which what I see you are trying to use. In simplistic terms one would not oblige another to use divisions of eight in order to come to a result which could have been used as the value of measurement in the first place.

To make it simple, use a familiar value, work from that. Nobody is going to stop listing programs online in MB, so why not measure in that. The numbers right now are artificially high, its like measuring a building in mm.

That certainly applies to my partner, most family and friends. All normal people in the sense being discussed here

In reply to a post by tide:

That was rude.

Typical of the type of person who can probably muster less virtual Facebook friends than those in real life.

Do you really think people divide something by eight, ever. Have you ever considered people don't know that they have to.

There is a real problem with broadband advertising and nothing you have said has made it any easier, you've provided no better alternative o something which patently does not work.

Have you considered your realy easy to wind up and exceptionally rude yourself.

Edited by deleted (Thu 03-Mar-11 01:20:45)

Debate are separate ends of distinct sides of opposing views. Debate is such as to encourage the defaulting of one of those ends, I am not yet ready to concede. I am therefore in the right.

Your arguments are of a past time when computing was measured in bits, not is it in MB, this is called progress with a little help from debate.

Divide by eight WHY?

How many bits in a Byte? You can say eight but there are occurrences where a Byte has a different number.

You also mention fibre optics ... what is the data rate for those? Whatever it is, it is in Megabits or Gigabits per second.

I think my state of mind is quite sound, my persona quite flat-line. You feel compassion to yourself, of all the nerve, still I do not think anything more from you will help this debate.

In reply to a post by tide:

its like measuring a building in mm.

The standard unit for drawings of buildings (and ships) is millimetres.

To put in my pennyworth or 0.01 poundsworth, whichever units your comfortable with, after giving up reading this repetitive thread ...

It's always been that computer storage is measured in Bytes (B) but communications/transmissions are measured in bits (b).

This is because on a communication link the data travels in bits serially, one after the other, whereas in a computer the data is stored, in memory, on a disk or in the processor, in Bytes of (usually) 8 bits and these bytes are moved around the computer in parallel on 8 "wires" (or more). Also in the computer, the Byte is the smallest unit that can be addressed individually. That's bit like someone can send a letter to your house but can't address it to your kitchen and have to P.O. deliver it there .

Another point that you are confused with is when you download a 100 MByte file (as it ends up on your PC), you are actually transmitting more than 800 Mbits between the server and your PC; perhaps as much as 900 - 1000 Mbits and the speed needs to account for that. This is because there are various overheads in the transmission, like carrying the source & destination IP addys, breaking it up into packets, carrying checksums and other error correction ...

In reply to a post by tide:

, still I do not think anything more from you will help this debate.

Nor you.

In reply to a post by tide:

I think my state of mind is quite sound, my persona quite flat-line. You feel compassion to yourself, of all the nerve, still I do not think anything more from you will help this debate.

More confirmation.

Fibre optics are limitless in terms of considered data rates for domestic use, this is all about advertising for domestic use and so advertising would simply be diverted to the media services which came with the service itself. But before fibre optics will come the need for easier to understand speeds, which people can understand.

Companies have tried to measure things like MP3 album downloads, but that's going to be even less accurate than plain old MB (not that Mb right now is accurate). However if turning to a work colleague, in any environment but a technical one, the response will be a number like 12.7 then "m" and "b", some will know it to be Megabyte and some will probably think its Megabit etc... but essentially they will know a file is, so big, and then associate the advertised speeds with those.

Face it, no one really knows what Mb is in the real world and why its being advertised I do not know.

Oddly enough I did know that. But it doesn't matter how many zeros you place on the end, its only what everybody else has been saying and its no exception to the "It's always been" dogma which I ma battling against.

It has to change, because files are bigger now, the measurement has to catch up. Like I said nobody measures a house in mm (not that they ever did) but one doesn't.

I knew you'd pick up on that.

Its per component.

I have dispelled every attempt to squash a new method of understanding for the masses, good to know that people still revile at the prospect of change. Good to know its possible to rebel, even today in the 21st Century, in the 21st Century sector.

In reply to a post by tide:

Fibre optics are limitless in terms of considered data rates for domestic use, this is all about advertising for domestic use and so advertising would simply be diverted to the media services which came with the service itself. But before fibre optics will come the need for easier to understand speeds, which people can understand.

Companies have tried to measure things like MP3 album downloads, but that's going to be even less accurate than plain old MB (not that Mb right now is accurate). However if turning to a work colleague, in any environment but a technical one, the response will be a number like 12.7 then "m" and "b", some will know it to be Megabyte and some will probably think its Megabit etc... but essentially they will know a file is, so big, and then associate the advertised speeds with those.

Face it, no one really knows what Mb is in the real world and why its being advertised I do not know.

RUBBISH

Many many people know what a Mb is and in the real context of Mbps it is easy to define. If your colleagues don't know the difference between m and M then maybe they should go back to primary school and relearn their maths.

There are standards that define m, B, p, P &c along with data rates in bits per second.

In reply to a post by tide:

I knew you'd pick up on that.

Really? And after only knowing about this bbs (and hence me) for the last 24 hours?

A truly amazing learning rate...