Power cuts - a different take

In the event of power cuts, will xDSL lines still provide signal to the router?

Assuming the property has a battery backup, and the router is powered up.
With POTS we knew the line was 'always on' for voice calls.

But will ADSL or FTTC connections work?

ADSL is exchange based so will continue to run until the exchange UPS/Generator provision is expended.

FTTC will run until the batteries in the cabinet are exhausted.

Thanks PhilipSmith72,
good to have confirmation before setting up plans.

In reply to a post by clyde123:

With POTS we knew the line was 'always on' for voice calls.

Until the exchange betteries ran down and te local diesel generator ran out of fuel.

In reply to a post by PhilipSmith72:

ADSL is exchange based so will continue to run until the exchange UPS/Generator provision is expended.

FTTC will run until the batteries in the cabinet are exhausted.

Or the home backup, as that is what keeps the router on for FTTC.

The OP also seems to me to be referring to VOIP/Digital Voice: ("With POTS we knew the line was 'always on' for voice calls"). Therefore the phone would also rely on the home backup. As it will for FTTP/H.

In reply to a post by PhilipSmith72:

ADSL is exchange based so will continue to run until the exchange UPS/Generator provision is expended.

FTTC will run until the batteries in the cabinet are exhausted.

Not sure all exchanges (especially some of the smaller ones) will have diesel backup. The bigger handover exchanges serving FTTP ought to have the longest autonomy.

The batteries in FTTC cabinets may only be good for 5 or 6 hours. Perhaps a lot less if they’re aged / not in great condition.

("With POTS we knew the line was 'always on' for voice calls").

I took that to mean ‘standard exchange based telephony’ Bob.

POTS Plain Old Telephone Service

Yes, so did I. But the fact the OP mentioned it as "in the past" suggested to me that they are either not still on it or are asking about when they aren't after 2025 .

Pheasant

All the exchanges have backup generators. There are a couple of 'exchanges' that are actually street cabinets so these will be the same as FTTC Cabs with batteries in.

The longest capacity was actually in the rural ones with a history of being cut off by bad weather.

Some generators in larger sites may be Gas so may have an issue in some circumstances,

Larger sites may have less headroom so may not be those that last the longest, they also have a history of only having short outages so are likely to have fuel supply for a shorter time.

There is also the issue that not all operators took backup supply when co-locating in BT exchanges so may not stand up during a power cut! (Risk versus cost equation may have changed recently!)

.

Thanks for the confirmation kitcat.

If we do end up having some form of extended and/or rolling blackouts this winter, it will really put whole systems to the test

Pheasant

I have been following the GB Electricity generation equation for some years tracking green energy supply versus Carbon. Since beginning of March Export to the continent has been consistently high and with Russia taking out Generation in Ukraine this has a knock-on effect right across Europe. (Max we can export is 6.3Gw)

The whole continent will suffer this winter and the last week (Ukraine) has practically made some rolling blackouts certain IF we get a blocking high causing low wind and Cold conditions.

Pick your personal choice of Pray / Hope / Wish for a consistently windy winter and we may get away with no cuts at all. (Peak wind is up 13% on 2021 but it is the average that counts up 15% and climbing). If we weren't exporting there are some periods (30 min) when we would be 100% green in GB for the first time ever. (No Coal/Oil/Gas/Bio).

I'm all up for renewables.

There must be some capacity to install renewable generation capability at exchange sites (certainly the 900 or so strategic ones that will be kept long term)?

My local exchange will run on generator for weeks before needing diesel. The ability for punters to call 999 was taken very seriously when the exchange was built and maintenance routined.

My VDSL cabinet will run on battery for around 5 hours.

The bulk fuel store at the exchange must be massive if it can run the entire exchange for weeks without needing a filll?

I have experience of running a 62 kVA standby set and that can get through 400 litres of juice in a 24 hour period - admittedly that's at full load - but even at 1/4 load its at least 100 litres a day.

The integrated fuel bunkers that CityFibre put under their FEX gensets wouldn't be more than 1000 to 2000 litres at most. Enough for a week of running I would say.

Pic of warehouse-based FEX with genset

There is some capacity possible on roofs, but many have a lot of kit already on there, (cooling, Radio, Mobiles etc) so not much space for Solar and most power issues are when it is dark. Certainly not enough to power an exchange (big exchange will have multi Mw demand). Most are in built up areas so not suitable for wind turbines.

BT tried to get Turbines on the Lizard (Goonhilly) some years ago but there were lots of complaints about ruining the view! They only got permission for some small ones.

Even the rural sites tend to be in villages and are not on the exposed places suitable for wind generation.

Pheasant

Don't know where FibreBubble's exchange is, but small exchanges (600-1000 lines) will only have a 6Kw engine so tank doesn't have to be that big. May only need 2Kw to run the whole exchange if other CPs didn't take up LLU or didn't take the resilient power. .

A few years ago they were running all the exchange engines around here 4 til 7 every night selling back to the grid.

Get ready for round two…😂

Morning Pluralist,
"The OP also seems to me to be referring to VOIP/Digital Voice: "

No, I was thinking simply about the xDSL feed.
Mentioned POTS referring back to the old days when there was almost always guaranteed a phone signal down the line even when mains electricity was down.

Really trying to get an idea of how badly (or otherwise) broadband service will be affected in the event of major power cuts this winter.

Personally I have an EO line. So I'm assuming that will still have both phone and broadband service. At least for a while.

"I took that to mean ‘standard exchange based telephony’ Bob.

POTS Plain Old Telephone Service"


Yes

"If we do end up having some form of extended and/or rolling blackouts this winter, it will really put whole systems to the test"


That could be a big contribution to the ongoing discussion around the coming changes in Openreach's traditional supply of telephone service - the "voice" part.

Some of the responses in this thread highlight big variations in availability of service in the event of major power cuts.
A difficult winter could provide a whole pile of actual data about the effects of these.
Which would point to some answers to all the questions about vulnerable people being left incommunicado.

If there is the purported 3-hour duration rolling load shedding (“blackouts” to the man on the Clapham omnibus) like this then EO copper will be fine, probably most consuming VoIP over a FTTC/VDSL too if their cabinet batteries are fitted and in decent nic. However as with those folks on FTTP they’ll need a decent premises UPS or DC power solution for the router/voice gateway (and ONT for FTTP).

Mobile comms could be a variable feast.

It's a totally unknown beast this. So much depends on the general weather severity. Maybe also to an extent how much power the UK continues to send to continental Europe.

My gut feeling is that in general UK domestic will not have extended outages, and therefore relatively minimal disruption. Although industry and vulnerable may well have more problems.

I agree that mobile comms will probably be a bigger issue. In the event of 'landline' broadband going down, lots of domestic users will try using mobile tethering and in general more mobile broadband usage.

Personally I can't decide on how much I'm happy spending for backup when the risk factor is so unknown. For sure though, I daren't let wifi for Her Indoors' ipad become unavailable.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Not sure all exchanges (especially some of the smaller ones) will have diesel backup. The bigger handover exchanges serving FTTP ought to have the longest autonomy.

I know when I did work experience with BT in mid 90s, the very small (few hundred lines) located in a very rural part of the highlands had a generator - whether it still works, and is maintained and fueled I've no idea

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

The bulk fuel store at the exchange must be massive if it can run the entire exchange for weeks without needing a filll?

I have experience of running a 62 kVA standby set and that can get through 400 litres of juice in a 24 hour period - admittedly that's at full load - but even at 1/4 load its at least 100 litres a day.

The integrated fuel bunkers that CityFibre put under their FEX gensets wouldn't be more than 1000 to 2000 litres at most. Enough for a week of running I would say.

Pic of warehouse-based FEX with genset

I guess maybe the generator isn't run continuously, just for long enough to top up batteries. I expect with LLU and all the DSL\FTTH kit there may also be load shedding after a certain period of time to eek out the fuel supply

I was quite confused by your opening post .

At the user end FTTC is VDLS2, so xDSL (maybe xDSLx) covers it. That was floating around in my mind when I read the POTS bit. What you should have said was ADSLx.

Now you say you have an EO line that simply can't have anything else. Your are still on PSTN/POTS. Unless you have switched previously to a VOIP service. And given the length of time you've been around ....

I'll let you off this, from February this year:

In reply to a post by clyde123:

Hi,
I've got a Draytek router on an FTTC connection.
....

That might be at another property if your OP was about your own line.

Yes the point of my post was to focus on some broadband service over traditional telephone lines.
My reference to POTS was intended to bring the point down to the very basic lines/service.

I have an EO line here at home with ADSL service on it - ADSL2+ .
Although I'm interested not just in my own situation, but thinking about that whole general group. There must be quite a lot of people with xDSLx as you say, whether on EO or a street cabinet.

I do have some VoIP service as well, but that's not a concern. If the broadband works, those 'lines' will work.


That other post about Draytek and FTTC concerns a different property altogether.

Considering some of the responses about generators at the exchange, is there anywhere to find out about the local exchange?
I'm assuming there is not - confidential info and all that.

It's possible that the National Grid Group (previously Western Power Distribution in my area) may provide some generator backup to exchanges if they are so obliged in certain circumstances?

In my area, a few Sundays ago, it looked like a Western Power Distribution diesel generator was perhaps feeding a FTTC cabinet. If that was the case then it was a heavy piece of kit just for a cabinet!

However the generator which was in a temporarily fenced off position adjacent to the cabinet may have been there for a completely different reason on that Sunday - it would be interesting to know...

UKPN usually wheel the trailered sets about when there’s been a local connection fault into a premises. Usually a failure on the UG joint.

For example: would a cabinet be on the same UG mains circuit as local domestic premises?

clyde123

What were you looking to find out?

Your local exchange will have backup generators, BT equipment will be on these, other operators equipment may or may not be depending on their cost decisions.

The fuel supply should last 24 hours minimum but may be longer if the exchange has a history of long power cuts.

There is no way to find out about your specific exchange unless it has an issue when a complaint may bring some info. If it has had no issue you have no reason to worry.

For must users all of this is irrelevant.

Then router goes off and so so does their internet.

The best option for most people would be to have content downloaded on an iPad or to have their Nintendo switch charged.

Failing that read a book under candle light.

I think it’s all about emergency calls rather than Nintendo switch in a blackout. But who am I to argue 🤣

Kitcat,

Trying to ascertain what might happen, what might work, and what might not. In the event of sustained power cuts.

For instance, there's no point in putting in a UPS at home for the router/internet, if there's no signal coming down the line or if it too dies after a very short time.
Same considerations for many small businesses.
If we ruled out the phone line as a reliable internet source, then it would make sense to put more effort and resources into mobile internet, maybe a good 4G router or something along those lines.
But the comments here indicate that there should - **probably** - be continuing broadband down the phone lines *in most cases* for a good few hours at least. That is helpful to know.

All this referring to the xDSLx scenario.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I think it’s all about emergency calls rather than Nintendo switch in a blackout. But who am I to argue 🤣

No hope for me, no mobile signal and Virgin Media's UPSless network (at least in my area) I can just about last an hour on UPS's and they can't even last 30 seconds.

Thought you were imminently getting Openreach FTTP?

But the comments here indicate that there should - **probably** - be continuing broadband down the phone lines *in most cases* for a good few hours at least. That is helpful to know.

All this referring to the xDSLx scenario.

It doesn't refer to your router unless, like you, the user has a UPS. No broadband of any kind other than mobile to mobile phone if the router (or even stand-alone modem) has no on-site power backup and the power to the premises fails.

The exchange power down the line won't drive a modem or modem/router. Even if the splitter passes it through, which I don't know. (Splitters do pass both phone and broadband signals to the modem, just preventing broadband frequencies to and from the phone cable).

Also of course if you are using a DECT phone system the base station would be dead in a power cut without backup power. You need an old type direct plug-in one.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Thought you were imminently getting Openreach FTTP?

At the end of contact with Virgin, I don't really want to be paying for multiple services (that and its not here just yet) my plan is leave at price rise season early next year then I can migrate across without leaving fees.

I think since I wholesale services I might be able to get it at wholesale price to the company so will look into trying to get that added a company benefit for everyone once I have been there a little longer.

In reply to a post by clyde123:

If we ruled out the phone line as a reliable internet source, then it would make sense to put more effort and resources into mobile internet, maybe a good 4G router or something along those lines.

The 4G router would also be off in a power cut. However using a charged-up mobile phone as a hotspot works well until it goes flat. I used to run my laptop + iPad + the internet connection for my smart tv that way. Obviously not the tv in a power cut.

There are of course cheap pocket-sized devices for charging mobile phones widely available.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

In reply to a post by clyde123:

If we ruled out the phone line as a reliable internet source, then it would make sense to put more effort and resources into mobile internet, maybe a good 4G router or something along those lines.

The 4G router would also be off in a power cut. However using a charged-up mobile phone as a hotspot works well until it goes flat. I used to run my laptop + iPad + the internet connection for my smart tv that way. Obviously not the tv in a power cut.

There are of course cheap pocket-sized devices for charging mobile phones widely available.

Have you not thought about keeping a few cans of petrol around and just sitting in the car with the engine running with a 12V to 230V transformer then your good to go till everyone gets this idea. Heat, electric, and better signal as the walls aren't as thick, only till the signal drops when the mast dies, then you just drive to the next one.

Clyde123

Ignoring wind related issues BTW based services from the exchange plus all OR from the Cab and FTTP Should be up for a couple of hours.

Services from the Cab are likely to be the shortest up time as the batteries will need changing out and OR will not be able to do all those in an area.

Other providers from the exchange may not stay up. I do not know what power backups FTTP Altnets use.

Many of the newer Mobile masts have batteries but I do not know how long they will last. Older ones often don't have batteries.

UPS for the router looks like the route to go but charge the mobile if you get notice of a 3 hour planned cut.

Not that, but I had certainly thought of charging phones in the car, with or without the engine running. I considered including that in my post, but it was getting too full of options and I think the (already popular) portable chargers are more realistic.

The situation would change radically of course if Putin goes through with his idea of nuking a couple of our cities, or as now in Ukraine taking out our mainstream generators by less dramatic measures .

In reply to a post by pluralist:

The situation would change radically of course if Putin goes through with his idea of nuking a couple of our cities, or as now in Ukraine taking out our mainstream generators by less dramatic measures .

If London is taken out I am close enough to be impacted so would certainly solve the issue for me.

In reply to a post by RR_The_IT_Guy:

If London is taken out I am close enough to be impacted so would certainly solve the issue for me.

I'm pretty close to Heathrow, so likewise!

In reply to a post by RR_The_IT_Guy:

In reply to a post by pluralist:

In reply to a post by clyde123:

If we ruled out the phone line as a reliable internet source, then it would make sense to put more effort and resources into mobile internet, maybe a good 4G router or something along those lines.

The 4G router would also be off in a power cut. However using a charged-up mobile phone as a hotspot works well until it goes flat. I used to run my laptop + iPad + the internet connection for my smart tv that way. Obviously not the tv in a power cut.

There are of course cheap pocket-sized devices for charging mobile phones widely available.

Have you not thought about keeping a few cans of petrol around and just sitting in the car with the engine running with a 12V to 230V transformer then your good to go till everyone gets this idea. Heat, electric, and better signal as the walls aren't as thick, only till the signal drops when the mast dies, then you just drive to the next one.

I believe you're thinking of an (DC-to-AC) inverter rather than transformer which is an AC only device.

What I would say is that if you're considering this, an inverter isn't really necessary at all. The majority of 4G/5G routers will be 12V DC input - so there's no need to waste money and energy going to AC just to rectify this straight back to DC using a plug-pack power supply - you can go direct, the voltage input tolerance of the router will be fine.

Think of it as the campervan or caravan approach. 😎

I'm 11 miles from Manchester so probably the same if that went. Or I might be unlucky and get the heavy radiation dose from the atomic detonator.

Reading the last 3/4 posts made me think I had slipped back into a 1970s school days discussion. ( Tuck your head between your legs and kiss your Bum goodbye)

The thread started off with generating shortfall power cuts not the end of the world

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

UKPN usually wheel the trailered sets about when there’s been a local connection fault into a premises. Usually a failure on the UG joint.

Location of the cabinets prior to the appearance of the diesel generator:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.8987017,-2.5013563...

A few Sundays later and the working generator is still there plus a fuel tank on another trailer. Both are located on the pavement in front of the cabinets behind a temporary fence. The middle cabinet is covered by a tarpaulin together with a smaller temporary fence surrounding it.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Reading the last 3/4 posts made me think I had slipped back into a 1970s school days discussion. ( Tuck your head between your legs and kiss your Bum goodbye)

The thread started off with generating shortfall power cuts not the end of the world

In the 1964 film Doctor Strangelove Peter Sellers almost saved the world by using a public phone box. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUAK7t3Lf8s

Edited by 4M2 (Sun 23-Oct-22 19:20:43)

The thread started with:

In the event of power cuts, will xDSL lines still provide signal to the router?

Assuming the property has a battery backup, and the router is powered up.
With POTS we knew the line was 'always on' for voice calls.

But will ADSL or FTTC connections work?

Re the first sentence/question: Yes, they always have done. With the caveats about the Openreach infrastructure backups that have now been discussed to death. With very informative input from yourself .

If those backups involved fail nothing works.

"Assuming the router is powered up". Answer, no need to assume that. ADSLx and VDSL2 are always on. Even if the router is not powered up they are still present at its input port.

"With POTS ...". It still is.

"But will ...". See first answer above,

The OP we now know is on an EO line on ADSL2+ with a backup power supply. Stuff that has been talked about umpteen times since ADSL and later FTTC were introduced.

He has been on this forum for over fourteen years so surely must have seen all that, but even if we accept he had forgotten it then a simple question asking about his setup would have been quickly and easily answered like that.

The first and last sentences of the opening post are basically duplicates, and in my opinion suggested VOIP might be in the setup. It is. But in addition to the PSTN, not replacing it so not relevant.

As for your sentence in parentheses, I have never heard or seen it before. I don't think it was necessary.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

As for your sentence in parentheses, I have never heard or seen it before.

In the days of the Cold War it was the usual advice about what to do if you heard that nuclear missiles were on their way.

Power supply fault to the cabinet so its running on a generator until the DNO restore the AC supply

In reply to a post by witchunt:

Power supply fault to the cabinet so its running on a generator until the DNO restore the AC supply

It does seem like that but because of the security fencing it's impossible to see how things are setup electrically. Also I don't know how long the generator has been continuously running since I only pass that spot on occasional Sundays.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Reading the last 3/4 posts made me think I had slipped back into a 1970s school days discussion. ( Tuck your head between your legs and kiss your Bum goodbye)

We're doomed Mr Mainwaring

I always thought it was Mannering but google says it Mainwaring

Edited by deleted (Sun 23-Oct-22 22:47:42)

In reply to a post by dect:

I always thought it was Mannering but google says it Mainwaring

Don't try Featherstonehaugh .

(Well - do try it before googling it)

You may be surprised how small the serious impact area of a nuclear explosion is - there is a "fun" tool at nuclearscrecy.com that I've spent quite a few hours playing around with.
I live quite close to Bristol, but a 50kt strike there would only rattle our windows, and depending on whether it is an air-burst or not even the worst-case radiation fallout probably wouldn't reach us as the prevailing wind would take it in the other direction.

The question is, does that site talk about atom bombs or hydrogen bombs. AIUI modern strategic nuclear weapons have hydrogen bomb warheads, measure in megatons of explosive power, not kilotons.

Kts are more applicable to the battlefield tactical weapons being worried about in the Ukraine war.

... the explosive power of the weapons mounted on strategic missiles usually ranges from 100 kilotons to 1.5 megatons. Thermonuclear bombs can be made small enough (a few feet long) to fit in the warheads of intercontinental ballistic missiles

A lot more information on another site, such as:

... approximately 35 percent of the energy of a nuclear blast is released in the form of thermal radiation. Since thermal radiation travels at approximately the speed of light, the first thing that will hit you is a flash of blinding light and heat.

The light itself is enough to cause something called flash blindness – a usually temporary form of vision loss that can last a few minutes.

The AsapSCIENCE video considers a 1 megaton bomb, which is 80 times larger than the bomb detonated over Hiroshima, but much smaller than many modern nuclear weapons.

For a bomb that size, people up to 21 km (13 miles) away would experience flash blindness on a clear day, and people up to 85 km (52.8 miles) away would be temporarily blinded on a clear night.

Heat is an issue for those closer to the blast. Mild, first-degree burns can occur up to 11 km (6.8 miles) away, and third-degree burns – the kind that destroy and blister skin tissue – could affect anyone up to 8 km (5 miles) away. Third-degree burns that cover more than 24 percent of the body would likely be fatal if people don't receive medical care immediately.
...
Within a 6-km (3.7-mile) radius of a 1-megaton bomb, blast waves would produce 180 metric tons of force on the walls of all two-story buildings, and wind speeds of 255 km/h (158 mph). In a 1-km (0.6-mile) radius, the peak pressure is four times that amount, and wind speeds can reach 756 km/h (470 mph).

Technically, humans can withstand that much pressure, but most people would be killed by falling buildings.

I very much doubt that your prevailing wind would be important even a few more miles away .

AIUI modern strategic nuclear weapons have hydrogen bomb warheads, measure in megatons of explosive power, not kilotons.

Kts are more applicable to the battlefield tactical weapons being worried about in the Ukraine war.

Yes, 50kt is towards the top of a tactical nuke yield, and the very bottom for a strategic nuke. However, even for a 5Mt blast, I'd be outside the 3rd degree burn radius. However, I don't think even Bristol would be enough of a target for a 5Mt bomb - Russia only has about 1500 warheads available at short notice, so they'd have to be picky.

I very much doubt that your prevailing wind would be important even a few more miles away wink.

Actually, it depends on the altitude of the detonation. For maximum damage radius an air-burst is best, and produces relatively little radioactive fallout - while a ground burst produces the maximum fallout.

Anyway, the size of my UPS would be relatively unimportant!

My original post was about being 11 miles from Manchester. Even if I survived a strike there, my social life revolves mainly around the classical music and theatre venues there. Also the BBC Philharmonic based in the Media Centre in Salford would go, as that Centre would not exist and the Lowry Theatre and Art Gallery next to it with the largest collection of Lowry paintings in the world would be devastated.

Edited by pluralist (Mon 24-Oct-22 22:01:05)

In reply to a post by pluralist:

My original post was about being 11 miles from Manchester. Even if I survived a strike there, my social life revolves mainly around the classical music and theatre venues there. Also the BBC Philharmonic based in the Media Centre in Salford would go, as that Centre would not exist and the Lowry Theatre and Art Gallery next to it with the largest collection of Lowry paintings in the world would be devastated.

That would be a disaster but to be fair I wouldn't be upset to see Man Utd go 😎🤣

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by pluralist:

My original post was about being 11 miles from Manchester. Even if I survived a strike there, my social life revolves mainly around the classical music and theatre venues there. Also the BBC Philharmonic based in the Media Centre in Salford would go, as that Centre would not exist and the Lowry Theatre and Art Gallery next to it with the largest collection of Lowry paintings in the world would be devastated.

That would be a disaster but to be fair I wouldn't be upset to see Man Utd go 😎🤣

Although the majority of their fan-base would not be physically affected.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Thought you were imminently getting Openreach FTTP?

Good news, as of today, I got a call from a project manager at Openreach, the fibre is live for areas passed from my Aggregation node, they are sorting my street out between today and the 27th for finalising checks before going live. They advised of a few days to weeks of delays for database updates.

Can't lie I am ecstatic best news all day, especially after non stop calls about exchange not working (because Microsoft services were down) (DNS related on the statement our Microsoft account manager gave)

Hey that's good news about the FTTP. Sounds like not long now and you will have an alternative to VM02

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

A few years ago they were running all the exchange engines around here 4 til 7 every night selling back to the grid.

Was mentioned in results call.

Lowth also said that BT has held talks with the government over potentially using the thousands of back-up generators it has at its exchanges across the UK, which are designed to kick-in if there are power disruptions, for wider use to help cope with potential nationwide rolling black outs this winter.

“We have had conversations about whether we can help the government over peak energy demand [this winter] by pro-actively using [our] back up power to help cope with demand at peaks,” he said. “We will do what we can to manage the overall UK energy position.”

BT operates 6,000 exchanges across the UK, each of which has a backup generator in case of disruption to power supplies.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/03/bt-...

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Hey that's good news about the FTTP. Sounds like not long now and you will have an alternative to VM02

\\\\\\\\\\\\guess what I saw on wholesale checker this morning!!
You guessed it, its here

Happy days. 👍 It’s great to have an alternative.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Happy days. 👍 It’s great to have an alternative.

It is, especially since I work at a company that can wholesale at cost price to Openreach and currently they are asking about company benefits so might try ang get them to do a broadband at cost price scheme.

When my cabinet lost mains power the batteries tended to last about a 3rd of the day before needing to be swapped.

We're on FTTC at a rural exchange in Somerset which has survived short power cuts in the past (to our battery-backed modem). During yesterday morning's planned power cut (tree works) though the cabinet failed after just two minutes! This FTTC cabinet happens to be just outside the local exchange which continued to deliver analogue telephony on generator power for the duration. Assuming batteries are still there in the cabinet it is clear they are not necessarily checked and maintained... Interestingly, our ISP (a good one) said this sort of problem doesn't fit any of the categories they can use to contact Openreach other than as a line fault which could take a couple of weeks to action. They said they assumed or at least hoped Opnreach have processes in place to notice and act on this sort of problem. I fear Openreach may not be ready to manage this when analogue telephony comes to an end.
For me all was not lost - I spent the morning (in a warm coat) in our local village hall with a battery and inverter enjoying their broadband from Truespeed.

The Openreach FTTC cabs usually have monitoring on the equipment, batteries and I believe also when the doors are open.

As to how they respond to the metrics and alarms from their monitoring is another question.

The loss of power will raise an alert in the NOC and they will arrange a power trained tech to investigate the cause , which could batteries or associated hardware . This will usually be within 2 hours of the failure.

This is the problem I have at the moment in both Central London and Rural Oxfordshire. In London we have a choice of (i) FTTC (fails around 45mins after power goes, based on last local power cut), (ii) Virgin Media (fails immediately on power cut), (iii) G.Network FTTP- fibre goes to a cabinet with limited battery back-up. How long iit can stay up not known. (iv) 4G Mobile (nominal 2 hour battery back-up). I used to have an ADSL line to the local TE, which has maintained power, but that was switched by the ISP to FTTC a couple of years ago. In Oxfordshire there is (i) ADSL, which I keep, although data rate is low, as the exchange has maintained power and has been fine for the power cuts experienced so far. (ii) FTTC (same limit as London), (iii) FTTP from Gigaclear (same limit as London) (iv) 4G Mobile (nominal 2 hour back-up), (v) Wireless Broadband (no back-up). So no solution that will operate for longer than a couple of hours in an area power cut unless Openreach decide to put in FTTP, which given what has already been deployed is unlikely before copper is removed.

In reply to a post by cymru123:

The Openreach FTTC cabs usually have monitoring on the equipment, batteries and I believe also when the doors are open.

As to how they respond to the metrics and alarms from their monitoring is another question.

From experience they seem to be somewhat indifferent. I know of two FTTC cabs which have faulty batteries and no sign of fixes:

#1 A rural location has an immediate failure as a modem on a UPS looses sync as soon as the power fails. Given the location has no mobile coverage on any network having access to communications is rather important. First spotted during storm Arwen, there were subsequently four full day planned power outages for the network to be upgraded during spring/summer 2022 and a couple more long weather-related outages December 2022.

#2 Small city suburbs, the power is usually pretty reliable but there have been a few long brownouts / complete dopouts of several seconds over the last year. Again a modem on a UPS looses sync, it seems to take somewhere between one and two minutes to reestablish connectivity with the DSLAM rebooting, DSL training and PPPoE starting.

As others have said there doesn't seem to be any mechanism to report this.

https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/when-to-g...
Id suggest reporting it as a damage issue.

In reply to a post by clyde123:

In the event of power cuts, will xDSL lines still provide signal to the router?

Assuming the property has a battery backup, and the router is powered up.
With POTS we knew the line was 'always on' for voice calls.

But will ADSL or FTTC connections work?

Forgive me here but as a domestic user even SME, why are you so reliant on the internet? Same goes for the black mirror devices that rely on 5 soon to be 6g ? My generation relied on neither and we thrived

In reply to a post by tommy45:

In reply to a post by clyde123:

In the event of power cuts, will xDSL lines still provide signal to the router?

Assuming the property has a battery backup, and the router is powered up.
With POTS we knew the line was 'always on' for voice calls.

But will ADSL or FTTC connections work?

Forgive me here but as a domestic user even SME, why are you so reliant on the internet? Same goes for the black mirror devices that rely on 5 soon to be 6g ? My generation relied on neither and we thrived

Fairly soonish (OK end 2025) everyone will be reliant for internet to even make phone calls.

Internet connectivity really is the 4th utility of the modern age.

Edited by Pheasant (Sun 29-Jan-23 22:23:56)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Forgive me here but as a domestic user even SME, why are you so reliant on the internet? Same goes for the black mirror devices that rely on 5 soon to be 6g ? My generation relied on neither and we thrived

Interesting you making above statement while tapping on a electronic keyboard which back in the day would have been alien to most people but is very normal now. 😎

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Forgive me here but as a domestic user even SME, why are you so reliant on the internet? Same goes for the black mirror devices that rely on 5 soon to be 6g ? My generation relied on neither and we thrived

Different times, but I kind of agree, I see people that are on their phones all the time, certainly the younger generation, even in the pub yesterday, I used mine twice, just to find out some info about something we were talking about, so a smartphone is great for that.

If my broadband went down, I would do something else or read, sure if it was down for a day or so it would be annoying, because as I said above different times. People miss so much when they have their head stuck in their phones.

I appreciate that this thread is focused on domestic uses, but the same infrastructure supports business users, who have alarms and telemetry which currently are carried on internet, backed-up by GSM and special protocols over copper. The withdrawal of copper is a major concern in areas where Openreach FTTP is not available.

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Forgive me here but as a domestic user even SME, why are you so reliant on the internet? Same goes for the black mirror devices that rely on 5 soon to be 6g ? My generation relied on neither and we thrived

These days lots of everyday functions expect internet - recently my neighbour's burglar alarm went off due to a power cut (it assumes some external interference). The only way to silence the alarm is using a WiFi connection, which of course wasn't working due to the power cut.
I also know someone with an electrically operated garage door - with no way to operate it in a power cut (he can still get his bicycle out through the side door though even if he can't use his car).
Electricity and the internet are now so ubiquitous that when designing things no thought is given to the possibility of not having them.

Those are poorly designed products then - in the case of the garage door opener it would be simple to have buttons for local control and a mechanical override to enable it to be released from the inside if power were to fail to the motor.

Same with the alarm - there's all these startup companies selling DIY alarm systems that insurers barely classify as alarms, but an LTE backup is the minimum that should be expected from new systems, as well as full functionality locally for arming and disarming the system that doesn't require any communication with a server.

Although I've never been forced to use it, there is a long handle next to my garage door control box. It can be connected to the drive motor at the end of the door 'roller blind' and allows manual opening and closing.

Apart from anything else compliant home security system external alarms will switch themselves off 20 minutes after activation.

In reply to a post by ajseeds:

I appreciate that this thread is focused on domestic uses, but the same infrastructure supports business users, who have alarms and telemetry which currently are carried on internet, backed-up by GSM and special protocols over copper. The withdrawal of copper is a major concern in areas where Openreach FTTP is not available.

At this stage - is it really? Like anyone that is THIS reliant on telecoms in a professional capacity or even passing sense, will have known that PSTN will be switched off at the end of 2025.

Don't conflate PSTN removal with copper removal/retirement - the latter could be decades away. They are not the same and are not really inextricably linked. Openreach are not taking out copper universally in under 2 years time.

Anyhow I'm curious what are these "special protocols" that you speak of?

Lots of people out there do wrongly entwine the PSTN switch off and copper retirement.

Same with the alarm - there's all these startup companies selling DIY alarm systems that insurers barely classify as alarms, but an LTE backup is the minimum that should be expected from new systems, as well as full functionality locally for arming and disarming the system that doesn't require any communication with a server.

Actually the alarm is an industrial alarm (it isn't a residential building) from a major supplier. I'm not sure it needs communication with a server, but it does expect to be managed from am App on a smartphone/tablet.
I agree it is bad design - but unfortunately it is now common to assume electricity and broadband/WiFi are always available.

If it is industrial then it should have a back-up battery capable of fully powering the system for 12 or 24 hours depending on grade. And which manufacturer provides alarms with NO keypad?

Despite being rather reliant on broadband for work in our distributed tech. company I agree nothing very bad would happen if I was disconnected for a day or two and the book/walk/see some friends options would keep me happy. I am more concerned by the combined possibility of a power cut and loss of 'life-line' telephony, either in an emergency or for those who will increasingly become dependent on telecommunications for care of one sort or another. If there was evidence that operators really took their responsibilities seriously and addressed maintenance problems with batteries or offered services that pro-actively alerted care-providers then maybe we'd just be left with the residual risk of two bad things happening at once which is maybe acceptable. As it is there seems to be a more significant gap.
There's no mobile service here, incidentally, (and we're not alone) or at least not without a brisk walk up the road (with a broken leg/concussion/ailment of your choice...).

"Don't conflate PSTN removal with copper removal/retirement - the latter could be decades away. They are not the same and are not really inextricably linked. Openreach are not taking out copper universally in under 2 years time.

Anyhow I'm curious what are these "special protocols" that you speak of?"

I was referring to dial-up based telemetry, used as second back-up, when internet and GSM fail. The comms. protocols are proprietary multi-tone coding. To function they need a dial-up voice line connection and that is not available during an area power cut, once mobile has dropped out, if there is no PSTN.

When the copper is removed is not relavant to this problem. The issue is when maintained comms. service ceases to be available and that looks like 2025, unless Openreach FTTP is available.

In reply to a post by ajseeds:

I was referring to dial-up based telemetry, used as second back-up, when internet and GSM fail. The comms. protocols are proprietary multi-tone coding. To function they need a dial-up voice line connection and that is not available during an area power cut, once mobile has dropped out, if there is no PSTN.

When the copper is removed is not relavant to this problem. The issue is when maintained comms. service ceases to be available and that looks like 2025, unless Openreach FTTP is available.

I find your posts incredibly hard to understand although what you're actually trying to say is very simple.

Edit: having just done a little research I see your a Professor of Opto-electronics which accounts for the wordiness of your posts.

Edited by deleted (Tue 31-Jan-23 10:58:51)

In reply to a post by ajseeds:

I was referring to dial-up based telemetry, used as second back-up, when internet and GSM fail. The comms. protocols are proprietary multi-tone coding. To function they need a dial-up voice line connection and that is not available during an area power cut, once mobile has dropped out, if there is no PSTN.

When the copper is removed is not relavant to this problem. The issue is when maintained comms. service ceases to be available and that looks like 2025, unless Openreach FTTP is available.

Chances are if stuff works at the moment by dialling a phone number and squeaking down it then it will continue to work over VoIP - you haven't dialled a number and gotten a direct circuit to the far end for a very long time so if the tones have been within the capabilities of existing digital exchange equipment it will continue to work.

FTTP or not has no bearing on the availability of "maintained comms services" - the 'landline' element of FTTP is exactly the same as it is currently for customers on Digital Voice (or whatever your chosen ISP calls it) on SOGEA.

ajseeds

The copper is not being withdrawn where there is no FTTP.

It is PSTN that is going by the end of 2025. This just mandates a move to VOIP for voice.

Your tone calling will still work over the BT voice VOIP service IF you have designed it to the correct standards. The network will pass all the tones as voice. If you have not followed the Standards the service will fail. This was all communicated to the alarm industry prior to 2006 and tested on thousands of devices at that time. ( BT knew then that the PSTN would have to be replaced by an IP network and industry wide comms were started, if firms have not updated their products 17 years later that is purely their fault)

Edited by kitcat (Tue 31-Jan-23 12:39:38)

In reply to a post by kitcat:

ajseeds

The copper is not being withdrawn where there is no FTTP.

It is PSTN that is going by the end of 2025. This just mandates a move to VOIP for voice.

FTTC is not being withdrawn either for users on lower end packages, so it seems.
I still feel pushing people onto VoiP is without some sort of battery back up is not a good idea

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

FTTC is not being withdrawn either for users on lower end packages, so it seems.

No, it's nothing to do with "lower end packages".

In properties which have FTTP available, and which are in an area where copper stop-sell is in force, you won't be able to order FTTC for any package. Even 40/10 or 80/20 will be delivered as FTTP. Copper will no longer be available to order, nor are regrades or migration orders accepted.

In properties which *don't* have FTTP available, you can continue to take copper-based services indefinitely. But you will have to give up your PSTN+FTTC service, and switch to SOGEA (or SOGFast or SOTAP), before Dec 2025, due to the separate PSTN switch-off project.

Combining these two rollouts: if you're in an FTTP area with copper stop sell in force, but currently have a PSTN+FTTC service, you'll be able to let it roll on for now. But by Dec 2025, you'll have to change. Since SOGEA won't be an option for you, you'll have to move to FTTP - or lose your service entirely.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In properties which have FTTP available...

Apologies if I've missed this somewhere, but do all these factors apply if the FTTP is via an altnet rather than BT?

The Openreach PSTN withdrawal and copper stop-sell applies only to the Openreach network. They aren't going to withdraw SOGEA if they cannot provide you with FTTP.

Thanks 👍

With that said, I wouldn't expect any other providers to offer analogue phone lines even though technically they could. There will be lots of providers using the Openreach PSTN switch-off as cover to do their own migrations to VoIP. If you have equipment that plugs into a copper line and relies on receiving power from the telephone exchange then it's time to plan a replacement.

I've been keeping an eye open for likely possible pitfalls with stop-sells etc and not anticipating any great problems; I'm a pretty ordinary user

It's just that when I went out this morning the streets around me were infested with Gigaclear vans, so I thought I'd check the position.

The only time I am aware of where availability of a non-Openreach network is taken into account is when deciding if a property is eligible for the USO scheme, in those circumstances if you applied to BT as the USO provider they would determine that Gigaclear could serve you and your claim to be connected as a USO case would be declined.

Sorry not to be clear. "maintained communications" means that the circuit will continue to operate if there is a wide area power cut. PSTN provides that because the exchange has a battery, that is charged by a diesel generator and the design standard for exchanges was to have fuel storage on site sufficient for two week's running. Openreach FTTP connects to such exchanges and therefore should provide "maintained communications". The Altnet FTTP implementations that I have seen take the fibres to a cabinet that has only battery back-up and therefore the circuit will only stay up for a few hours. The same reliance on battery back-up without generator applies to cellular base stations and to FTTC.

So, if maintained communications is needed I think the choice is PSTN, Openreach FTTP or own-provided communications network with maintained power. When PSTN is discontinued and Openreach FTTP is not available, own-provided communications network with maintained power will be the only solution. This may provide good business for Starlink and other satcom. services.

If you have something that vital then you get a leased line and a generator with a fuel supply contract.

PSTN is not the choice because it's going away for new orders in a little over six months.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

No, it's nothing to do with "lower end packages".

In properties which have FTTP available, and which are in an area where copper stop-sell is in force, you won't be able to order FTTC for any package. Even 40/10 or 80/20 will be delivered as FTTP. Copper will no longer be available to order, nor are regrades or migration orders accepted.

In properties which *don't* have FTTP available, you can continue to take copper-based services indefinitely. But you will have to give up your PSTN+FTTC service, and switch to SOGEA (or SOGFast or SOTAP), before Dec 2025, due to the separate PSTN switch-off project.

Combining these two rollouts: if you're in an FTTP area with copper stop sell in force, but currently have a PSTN+FTTC service, you'll be able to let it roll on for now. But by Dec 2025, you'll have to change. Since SOGEA won't be an option for you, you'll have to move to FTTP - or lose your service entirely.

I have been told that stop sell of FTTC when it happens will not affect people on 40/10 FTTC,

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/06/openre...


Stop sell on PSTN is a different thing, but since I already use a VoiP system it will not affect me

There are exclusions on the 40/10 package but it's not completely exempt from the stop sell.

Existing FTTC/SOGEA customers will be allowed to remain on 40/10 or modify to 40/10 after the stop sell starts.

If you don't have FTTC though you won't be able to order 40/10 FTTC after a stop sell starts if FTTP is available.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

There are exclusions on the 40/10 package but it's not completely exempt from the stop sell.

Existing FTTC/SOGEA customers will be allowed to remain on 40/10 or modify to 40/10 after the stop sell starts.

If you don't have FTTC though you won't be able to order 40/10 FTTC after a stop sell starts if FTTP is available.

So If I want to stay with FTTC 40/10 I can do as I am an existing 40/10 user, so is everyone in this road that have broadband apart from 3 who have gone to FTTP, I also presume some of the surrounding roads as well as they are too far from the cabinet to get anything faster like I am.

Not that we have FTTC stop sell, it may be a while before it happens, saying that Openreach do seem to moving their backside a bit, maybe because they are worried that ZZoomm will take customers, amazing how quickly Openreach move when they have competition. But I still think it will be a while for a start as far as I know they got to give 12 months notice before stop sell. A lot of water will flow under the bridge in the next 12 months or so, but at the moment I am fine with what I have.,

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Not that we have stop sell, it may be a while before it happens,

I suspect outside of the trial areas (Salisbury & Mildenhall) that this will be a long way off yet with the PSTN going first taking majority of effort.

That does seem a bit odd not to have a keypad. I wonder if it's like on of my neighbours system, they've always managed it with a phone, but didn't realise that the control pad is behind a small flap under the status display unit in the hallway. They've had it for 3 years and had no idea it was there.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Not that we have stop sell, it may be a while before it happens,

I suspect outside of the trial areas (Salisbury & Mildenhall) that this will be a long way off yet with the PSTN going first taking majority of effort.

If that is the case, then why the hell is Openreach going to restrict people's broadband in Salisbury & Mildenhall if they don't change over? They say it is to do with PSTN, but it doesn't sound like it.

It will certainly not be happening here for a while, I did get a bit worried that it would happen once openreach got to 75% coverage, but not so worried now

The speed restriction (being trialled) is a warning shot before the service disappears completely. PSTN withdrawal affects any product built on top of it, WLR3+FTTC needs to change to SOGEA, only the ISP can do that. The aim of the trial is to trigger a process where the end user contacts their ISP, assuming that the ISP has already tried writing letters, sending emails and making phone calls and not had any success engaging the customer.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

If that is the case, then why the hell is Openreach going to restrict people's broadband in Salisbury & Mildenhall if they don't change over? They say it is to do with PSTN, but it doesn't sound like it.

Those towns are the full fibre (FTTP) test areas, where copper is being fully switched off, as Openreach have agreed years ago with Ofcom. Completely separate to PSTN which is voice calls.

It will certainly not be happening here for a while, I did get a bit worried that it would happen once openreach got to 75% coverage, but not so worried now

I think they’d have to get 100% coverage to do that.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

If that is the case, then why the hell is Openreach going to restrict people's broadband in Salisbury & Mildenhall if they don't change over? They say it is to do with PSTN, but it doesn't sound like it.

Those towns are the full fibre (FTTP) test areas, where copper is being fully switched off, as Openreach have agreed years ago with Ofcom. Completely separate to PSTN which is voice calls.

It will certainly not be happening here for a while, I did get a bit worried that it would happen once openreach got to 75% coverage, but not so worried now

I think they’d have to get 100% coverage to do that.

From my count there are 368 FTTP Priority Exchanges.
There are a further 280 exchanges being added to that by Feb 2023.

Once Ultrafast* coverage on these exchanges hits 75% then anyone with FTTP available can only order FTTP (the 40/10 FTTC package is excluded).
Ultrafast coverage includes G.Fast above 300Mb/s.

The salisbury trial is basically the same. It only impacts properties with FTTP available (even Salisbury won't reach 100%).

In reply to a post by ajseeds:

"Don't conflate PSTN removal with copper removal/retirement - the latter could be decades away. They are not the same and are not really inextricably linked. Openreach are not taking out copper universally in under 2 years time.

Anyhow I'm curious what are these "special protocols" that you speak of?"

I was referring to dial-up based telemetry, used as second back-up, when internet and GSM fail. The comms. protocols are proprietary multi-tone coding. To function they need a dial-up voice line connection and that is not available during an area power cut, once mobile has dropped out, if there is no PSTN.

When the copper is removed is not relavant to this problem. The issue is when maintained comms. service ceases to be available and that looks like 2025, unless Openreach FTTP is available.

Yet you previously wrote:

The withdrawal of copper is a major concern in areas where Openreach FTTP is not available.

So is or isn’t copper retirement a major concern?

Then you changed it to “maintained comms” - whatever that means as it’s not defined anywhere.

In reply to a post by jpm:

The speed restriction (being trialled) is a warning shot before the service disappears completely. PSTN withdrawal affects any product built on top of it, WLR3+FTTC needs to change to SOGEA, only the ISP can do that. The aim of the trial is to trigger a process where the end user contacts their ISP, assuming that the ISP has already tried writing letters, sending emails and making phone calls and not had any success engaging the customer.

Just openreach acting like a monopoly, and proving that my opinions are spot on about the company.

We were told that PSTN withdrawal had nothing to do with broadband, and yet it seems Openreach are acting like a child that can't have its way and throwing their toys out of the pram.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Those towns are the full fibre (FTTP) test areas, where copper is being fully switched off, as Openreach have agreed years ago with Ofcom. Completely separate to PSTN which is voice calls.

If you read the articles, you will see that this is to do with PSTN, Openreach are slowing people's broadband down because they have not changed to digital voice or an alternative, not because they have not gone to Fibre.

I think they’d have to get 100% coverage to do that.

75%, not 100%,

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

From my count there are 368 FTTP Priority Exchanges.
There are a further 280 exchanges being added to that by Feb 2023.

Once Ultrafast* coverage on these exchanges hits 75% then anyone with FTTP available can only order FTTP (the 40/10 FTTC package is excluded).
Ultrafast coverage includes G.Fast above 300Mb/s.

The salisbury trial is basically the same. It only impacts properties with FTTP available (even Salisbury won't reach 100%).

Our exchange covers the whole city, where in larger cities they may have 2 or more exchanges, I think it will take a while to get to 75%.

I found out, or I think I have found out why Openreach is excluding 40/10 and that is to give people the chance who wants the faster speed to get it, I suppose if a load of people decided they wanted FTTP at the same time, openreach would not be able to cope with the installations.


i am still surprised that a neighbour have not changed to FTTP, since they were complaining like hell about the speed of their broadband, and they said they would change as soon as FTTP came. They could be still in contract and are going with Zzoomm I suppose. They are also business people, so they may know about the price increases in March and waiting for that to happen.

I have to sort out a UPS for someone one next week to run their home phone and router, they are on FTTC, but changed providers a couple of weeks ago and now on digital voice. They said they would go up to £100, so I was thinking of this Eaton That should keep the phone and router going for a bit and also when they go for fibre; the ONT. Not that we get many power cuts here, and they are normally short-lived. Never really had much to do with UPS, I had one given me years ago, which I used for a couple of years until it went belly up.
More to do with keeping the router alive when we have flickers and where they live they seem to have a lot of flickers

I'm sure they'd be open to hearing your suggestions for how better to manage the migration.

The problem is that VOIP requires a broadband connection that works. FTTC, mobile and most Altnet FTTPs fail as soon as the cabinet/cell-site batteries are exhausted- anything from a few minutes to a couple of hours.

You say that I have not defined "maintained comms.". On 31 January I wrote ""maintained communications" means that the circuit will continue to operate if there is a wide area power cut.""

My concern is with the lack of maintained coommunications, when both ADSL to exchanges with maintained power- I'll define that, if you need it defined- and PSTN is withdrawn. When neither those, nor Openreach FTTP are available, anything that needs maintained communications will need an alternative solution. The alternative solutions that I am aware of are neither convenient nor cheap.

Has there ever been a commitment to a PSTN line remaining powered indefinitely during power outages or to the availability of the line? As far as I know there's always been a MBORC clause which is going to be the likely cause of a prolonged loss of exchange power.

What are the anticipated applications where a site must stay connected in the event of local power outage and mobile network failure for all carriers but diverse fibre such as RO2 is cost prohibitive?

In reply to a post by ajseeds:

You say that I have not defined "maintained comms.". On 31 January I wrote ""maintained communications" means that the circuit will continue to operate if there is a wide area power cut.""

My concern is with the lack of maintained coommunications, when both ADSL to exchanges with maintained power- I'll define that, if you need it defined- and PSTN is withdrawn. When neither those, nor Openreach FTTP are available, anything that needs maintained communications will need an alternative solution. The alternative solutions that I am aware of are neither convenient nor cheap.

Ah OK. It’s a definition you made up!

If the site (you noted business) needs continuous comms whilst it’s lost all power - what is this for - if it’s such a showstopper.

Have they got replicated diesel sets too? Genuine question.

In reply to a post by jpm:

Has there ever been a commitment to a PSTN line remaining powered indefinitely during power outages or to the availability of the line? As far as I know there's always been a MBORC clause which is going to be the likely cause of a prolonged loss of exchange power.

What are the anticipated applications where a site must stay connected in the event of local power outage and mobile network failure for all carriers but diverse fibre such as RO2 is cost prohibitive?

“Special” telemetry which needs a PSTN service (where the BT exchanges may or may not run for a non-specified period of time - certainly not uniform) but not special enough that a fibre (single or dual/diverse) is too cost prohibitive. I’m scratching my head…

In reply to a post by jpm:

I'm sure they'd be open to hearing your suggestions for how better to manage the migration.

They have already changed and then realised that the provider only supplied digital voice, i had no part in them changing providers, I did not even know they were doing it until they told me it was done. They have a small business, so they are worried if there is a power cut they will lose the phone and asked me if there is anything that can be done. I recommended a UPS as that seems to be the best way.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

If you read the articles, you will see that this is to do with PSTN, Openreach are slowing people's broadband down because they have not changed to digital voice or an alternative, not because they have not gone to Fibre.

And large ISPs (e.g. Plusnet, and Sky) haven't yet issued replacement "digital voice" capable routers to home users on ADSL or FTTC. I know at least two Sky customers on FTTP whom have "digital voice" capable routers but the phone is plugged into the Openreach wall port (WLR3).

This is going to take ages.... they haven't actualy started moving people.... so any idea that OR will interrupt the internet and slow it down is way way way too early. That sort of thing will be needed to get the final 2%.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

And large ISPs (e.g. Plusnet, and Sky) haven't yet issued replacement "digital voice" capable routers to home users on ADSL or FTTC. I know at least two Sky customers on FTTP whom have "digital voice" capable routers but the phone is plugged into the Openreach wall port (WLR3).

This is going to take ages.... they haven't actualy started moving people.... so any idea that OR will interrupt the internet and slow it down is way way way too early. That sort of thing will be needed to get the final 2%.

I don't think plusnet have any plans to got to digital voice, certainly not on FTTP. I have no idea how they are going to do things with FTTC as they are still advertising the service with voice. My next door neighbour changed to sky broadband last year and they are on digital voice, not that Sky told them, they only found out when the phone did not work, phoned Sky and sky told them to plug the phone into their router
I had to redo a phone extension, so they could move the router where their B T one was.


Sadly, Openreach think they can do what they like.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I don't think plusnet have any plans to got to digital voice, certainly not on FTTP. I have no idea how they are going to do things with FTTC as they are still advertising the service with voice.

A family member with PN has just re-contracted and has the new Hub 2 router which includes a “BT jack” on the back. So they are getting ready to do “digital voice” but nothing yet mentioned of course. A friend whom re-contracted just before Christmas didn’t get a new router, still on the Hub 1 and no info at all.

Sadly, Openreach think they can do what they like.

Not quite true, Ofcom are watching them like a hawk. But Ofcom can’t make Openreach keep the PSTN on ancient hardware forever. Easy loss in court, which wouldn’t be good for a regulator.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

A family member with PN has just re-contracted and has the new Hub 2 router which includes a “BT jack” on the back. So they are getting ready to do “digital voice” but nothing yet mentioned of course. A friend whom re-contracted just before Christmas didn’t get a new router, still on the Hub 1 and no info at all.

The new plusnet hub is based on one of the BT ones, with different firmware, and a different colour case, I doubt very much if the hardware will be changed, which is why the phone jack is in there. If it is used depends on if the firmware supports it or will be updated to support it, we will wait and see. The Zyxel router Plusnet sent me a while back have connections for VoIP, but they are disabled as plusnet put their own firmware on it, which is a shame as it would have been nice to be able to plug in my phones, configure it and use that instead of the Linksys pap adaptor I have.

Not quite true, Ofcom are watching them like a hawk. But Ofcom can’t make Openreach keep the PSTN on ancient hardware forever. Easy loss in court, which wouldn’t be good for a regulator.

Mmm, I have said for years, Openreach should be split from BT, to be honest I think they should go back as it was before they were privatised. Too many fingers in the pie that gets far too much money out of it, just like our energy companies to be honest, and it hits us the consumer.

People think I am against getting rid of PSTN, I am not against getting rid of it, I understand that things need to modernise. My problem is the way it has been handled, no notice to the consumer and no battery back up for people who need it and having to use a huge router for people who don't have broadband,
But the worse thing is the lack of communication, if I was not on sites like this I would never have known. A lot of people I chat to have no idea that it is going to happen.

A better job was done when we changed to that awful Frreeview rubbish and they turned off analogue TV.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Mmm, I have said for years, Openreach should be split from BT, to be honest I think they should go back as it was before they were privatised. Too many fingers in the pie that gets far too much money out of it, just like our energy companies to be honest, and it hits us the consumer.

and quite a court case between BT Group and the regulator over what happened to the pension funds. The decision to "arms length" instead of "split" was discussed in most papers.

People think I am against getting rid of PSTN, I am not against getting rid of it, I understand that things need to modernise. My problem is the way it has been handled, no notice to the consumer and no battery back up for people who need it and having to use a huge router for people who don't have broadband,

The number of people without broadband is reducing fast, and "huge router" is unlikely, it has already been mentioned of 'match box' size devices.

But the worse thing is the lack of communication, if I was not on sites like this I would never have known. A lot of people I chat to have no idea that it is going to happen.

That is where Ofcom and Openreach have required the communications provider to do the work. You should be chasing Plusnet, Sky, TalkTalk over their lack of advertising.

On this I agree, Ofcom should be centrally advertising on TV, they could even do it on the BBC as "public service" communication from the Government.

Edited by jchamier (Sat 04-Feb-23 12:45:17)

Customers haven't received communication yet because there is no need for them to do anything right now. The PSTN switch-off isn't happening outside of trial areas for over two years - there is still time for a 24-month contract signed today for WLR3+FTTC to run its full course before the switch-off deadline gets to within six months. There's also no point doing a big campaign that could cause confusion when the natural impact of stop-sell and FTTP-priority is going to do the bulk of the heavy lifting required in this migration. 1:1 discussions can happen between customers and ISPs at contract renewal time over the next two years.

We're in a situation on here where people are hearing about this change from industry forums, getting a clear understanding of what the changes are (because it's been explained multiple times), and then acting as if somehow they don't know and complaining that they haven't been told.

In reply to a post by jpm:

Customers haven't received communication yet because there is no need for them to do anything right now.

Good point, there isn't anything end users can do is there.

There's also no point doing a big campaign that could cause confusion when the natural impact of stop-sell and FTTP-priority is going to do the bulk of the heavy lifting required in this migration.

Maybe this autumns PSTN / WLR stop sell will have more impact? I was expecting that to be communicated.

We're in a situation on here where people are hearing about this change from industry forums, getting a clear understanding of what the changes are (because it's been explained multiple times), and then acting as if somehow they don't know and complaining that they haven't been told.

Forums, like the internet, have all sorts

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Maybe this autumns PSTN / WLR stop sell will have more impact? I was expecting that to be communicated.

I'm not convinced it will, I'm fairly sure the majority of customers will phone up at the end of their existing contracts to get a new deal, be asked if they need a phone line, say "no I use my mobile" and that will be that.

In reply to a post by jpm:

I'm not convinced it will, I'm fairly sure the majority of customers will phone up at the end of their existing contracts to get a new deal, be asked if they need a phone line, say "no I use my mobile" and that will be that.

My parents are fed up of their landline, they get 1 valid call a month, and 3 or 4 junk sales calls a day. They have just renewed with PN for 18 months and had no discussion on this, the "broadband" price is inclusive of phone. They may just unplug it!

As someone who gets to visit a LOT of properties and looks at what is going on … telephony over a landline is very much in decline. Even when there is a phone connected, punters freely admit they don’t use them.

I suspect this is a storm in a teacup. For a VERY large proportion of the general public it really has no issue at all.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I suspect this is a storm in a teacup.

Fully agreed, and I'm sure Ofcom have asked the questions of all the CP's and gained that insight, before agreeing to PSTN shutdown.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

As someone who gets to visit a LOT of properties and looks at what is going on … telephony over a landline is very much in decline. Even when there is a phone connected, punters freely admit they don’t use them.

I suspect this is a storm in a teacup. For a VERY large proportion of the general public it really has no issue at all.

Yep. I expect it will be the last 5% or so that will be the most difficult for various reasons, including age, cultural attachment and force of habit. Possibly geography.

Putting it bluntly; it's the older parents and relatives. Anyone under 25 doesn't know what a landline is. Most under 50 don't really care as they typically use their inclusive mobile minutes.

t's the retired / spend long periods at home, vulnerable, disabled and incapacitated that is where the time and effort will need to be expended to make sure they can still safely communicate.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Putting it bluntly; it's the older parents and relatives. Anyone under 25 doesn't know what a landline is.

I work with some 19 to 23 year olds whom tell me they have a landline (with a wired phone, no DECT) but only because its required for the broadband. Its never used.

Most under 50 don't really care as they typically use their inclusive mobile minutes.

Even those over 50

It's the retired / spend long periods at home, vulnerable, disabled and incapacitated that is where the time and effort will need to be expended to make sure they can still safely communicate.

I find the over 70s whom have kept up with technology are in the same category as the under 50s, but the over 70s whom were not into technology when they retired haven't watched the pace of change. That is the group that needs assistance.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Even those over 50

Easy tiger. I'm still flying under the radar this year, just! 😂

I find the over 70s whom have kept up with technology are in the same category as the under 50s, but the over 70s whom were not into technology when they retired haven't watched the pace of change. That is the group that needs assistance.

It's terrible to label, but I think we have pretty good idea of those in society that are going to need assistance here.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Easy tiger. I'm still flying under the radar this year, just! 😂

Skating along the line myself

It's terrible to label, but I think we have pretty good idea of those in society that are going to need assistance here.

My grandparents (whom left us in the early 2010's) used to explain to me how they noticed technology change from their retirement (around 1980) had sped up to an incredible pace, and it was the rate of change they found hard, not learning the individual technologies.

I suspect that is where the world turned, back then you learned complex tools and used long term. Now everyone touches on 15% or even 55% of a tool (usually software) and isn't expected to learn 100%... unlike mechanical consoles, people using software generally don't learn things by rote (press Ctrl + K + D) but we guess the approach to "save and quit" and when the icons and menus move, we adapt.

Quite a dramatic change in the learning and doing processes.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

and quite a court case between BT Group and the regulator over what happened to the pension funds. The decision to "arms length" instead of "split" was discussed in most papers.

Government are scared, I expect people in government have their fingers in that pie as well.

The number of people without broadband is reducing fast, and "huge router" is unlikely, it has already been mentioned of 'match box' size devices.

I agree that the amount of people without broadband is reducing, the problem is, people have been told they need broadband to live and they get it, even if they can't afford it.
it is one bill I want to keep as low as I can, as long as I can stream, and my smart house stuff keeps working, that is all i need, oh and my computer to play the odd game and download the odd file and browse.
This is why I have said I don't need anything faster.,

As for the small box, that is as far as I know only to connect a phone from another room to the router, just use Dect to connect your normal phone to the BT router.

That is where Ofcom and Openreach have required the communications provider to do the work. You should be chasing Plusnet, Sky, TalkTalk over their lack of advertising.

On this I agree, Ofcom should be centrally advertising on TV, they could even do it on the BBC as "public service" communication from the Government.

I don't care who does it, but it has not been done, just sticking it on TV is no good, lots of peoiple don't watch TV these days and i think that will increase

In reply to a post by jpm:

Customers haven't received communication yet because there is no need for them to do anything right now. The PSTN switch-off isn't happening outside of trial areas for over two years - there is still time for a 24-month contract signed today for WLR3+FTTC to run its full course before the switch-off deadline gets to within six months. There's also no point doing a big campaign that could cause confusion when the natural impact of stop-sell and FTTP-priority is going to do the bulk of the heavy lifting required in this migration. 1:1 discussions can happen between customers and ISPs at contract renewal time over the next two years.

We're in a situation on here where people are hearing about this change from industry forums, getting a clear understanding of what the changes are (because it's been explained multiple times), and then acting as if somehow they don't know and complaining that they haven't been told.

As far as I know, PSTN is happening this year everywhere, so even people with FTTC or even ADSL if they still have that will be pushed onto digital voice.
I know someone one who still have ADSL, they live pretty close to our exchange so they get a good speed, well good for ADSL, but still not sure what digital voice would be like on it, not that they use the phone.

I was talking to one of my brothers last night, and he is not very technical. We talked about broadband as he is on Shell broadband and told him about digital voice, he had no idea what it was and how it may affect him.
I found out he doesn't use his landline and yet he calls my VoIP phone, instead of my mobile

I have chatted to other people who know their way about things tech wise and they had no idea the phone system is changing, they know about fibre but not digital voice

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I don't care who does it, but it has not been done, just sticking it on TV is no good, lots of peoiple don't watch TV these days and i think that will increase

Market research will tell the answer to this, in the same way it advised Ofcom as to where additional support was needed for the analogue TV shutdown. As in my resposes with our tasty feathered friend, the "group" of people whom care is likely complex.

Post deleted by Malwaremike

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

I think you've got it in one.

Thanks!

Edited by jchamier (Sun 05-Feb-23 14:41:26)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Easy tiger. I'm still flying under the radar this year, just! 😂

Skating along the line myself

It's terrible to label, but I think we have pretty good idea of those in society that are going to need assistance here.

My grandparents (whom left us in the early 2010's) used to explain to me how they noticed technology change from their retirement (around 1980) had sped up to an incredible pace, and it was the rate of change they found hard, not learning the individual technologies.

I suspect that is where the world turned, back then you learned complex tools and used long term. Now everyone touches on 15% or even 55% of a tool (usually software) and isn't expected to learn 100%... unlike mechanical consoles, people using software generally don't learn things by rote (press Ctrl + K + D) but we guess the approach to "save and quit" and when the icons and menus move, we adapt.

Quite a dramatic change in the learning and doing processes.

As one who won't see 80 again never mind 70, I think you've got it in one. For example, after 24 years I 'flew' again in an Airbus simulator. I was totally lost in what appeared to be a giant video console with pilots becoming computer operators. But turn off all the systems so the aircraft returned to the controls I remember and I could 'fly' it no problem, it was like riding a bicycle.
PS to JC: well, what do you expect from an old fossil ?

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

PS to JC: well, what do you expect from an old fossil ?

This forum could do with an easier edit box, larger font would help

So to summarise, mobile, fixed wireless, cable, FTTC and Altnet FTTP will all fail for area-wide power cuts > 2 hours, less in many cases.

If a connection with the resilience to power cuts of PSTN and BT ADSL is needed only Openreach FTTP, satellite or resilient leased fibre will provide that.

Altnet ADSL may or may not be resilient to area-wide power cuts, depending on whether they paid for maintained power.

Does anyone know of any resilient solutions beyond those listed above?

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

PS to JC: well, what do you expect from an old fossil ?

I'm not far behind you and have my display preferences set to always use the Preview box, so I can make sure my posts look the way I intended before committing them to public viewing

Comes in handy for checking your links work as intended too.

Openreach FTTP still needs power at the customer premises for the ONT and router so not resilient by default.

Openreach FTTC and ADSL still need power at the customers premises for the router so not resilient by default.

I suspect satellite broadband also needs power at the customers premises so not resilient by default.

In reply to a post by dect:

Openreach FTTP still needs power at the customer premises for the ONT and router so not resilient by default.

Openreach FTTC and ADSL still need power at the customers premises for the router so not resilient by default.

I suspect satellite broadband also needs power at the customers premises so not resilient by default.

Define "resilient"! For each of the options above resilience is in the customer's hands (UPS, generator or whatever). It is up to the customer whether to add in that resilience. The customer cannot add that resilience for things beyond his/her control. The wider network may well not be resilient which will negate any measures put in place by the customer.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Define "resilient"! For each of the options above resilience is in the customer's hands (UPS, generator or whatever). It is up to the customer whether to add in that resilience. The customer cannot add that resilience for things beyond his/her control. The wider network may well not be resilient which will negate any measures put in place by the customer.

I do take your point about the difference although for me nothing compares to a traditional copper PSTN service if your looking for simplicity.

In reply to a post by dect:

]I do take your point about the difference although for me nothing compares to a traditional copper PSTN service if your looking for simplicity.

Particularly when you live in a mobile-free zone like we do!

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Particularly when you live in a mobile-free zone like we do!

Maybe that will improve, for outdoor signal (e.g. external antenna) with the Shared Rural Network project: https://srn.org.uk/

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Particularly when you live in a mobile-free zone like we do!

Maybe that will improve, for outdoor signal (e.g. external antenna) with the Shared Rural Network project: https://srn.org.uk/

A planning application is in for a mast to serve our community but it is now bogged down due to the legal departments of the County Council and mast developer becoming involved! No network has yet publicly stated that they will take capacity on the mast but we live in hope.

For the record, the County Council recently gave permission for a new mast elsewhere in the rural fastnesses of the county but only on condition that the mast has generator capacity on site so that the mast does not die in fairly short order. This is to avoid the situation where large parts of the county were devoid of communications for several days after Storm Arwen in 2021.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

A planning application is in for a mast to serve our community but it is now bogged down due to the legal departments of the County Council and mast developer becoming involved! No network has yet publicly stated that they will take capacity on the mast but we live in hope.

Keep fingers crossed. Plenty of rural areas in the South East where planning blocked masts in the 1990 - 2000 timeframe that have not seen any applications return.

For the record, the County Council recently gave permission for a new mast elsewhere in the rural fastnesses of the county but only on condition that the mast has generator capacity on site so that the mast does not die in fairly short order. This is to avoid the situation where large parts of the county were devoid of communications for several days after Storm Arwen in 2021.

Sounds very sensible given that even thousands of landline's were cut off by the falling trees after Arwen.