never again

Hi been with sky 2 years but never again, my router broke and they told me i have to wait 7 days for new one so got my user name and pass from the net and tried my belkin but still no joy so moving away from them now as having to use there router sucks when it breaks and you have to wit 7 days for new one

Where are you going to go ? There is very little to compare to what sky offer in the ADSL market .
BE and some packages from resellers on C&W LLU are the only unlimited options I can think of .

I got my belkin working fine. Are you sure you have all the setttings set OK

Hi could i ask what setting you used because there is not many to set

in the 2 years you were with them did you have any issues or is it simply now after 2 years of ok service you jump ship due to the free router dying and having to wait a week for another free router?
other than the weeks wait am i missing whats so bad here?

No had problems a few times now in total lost internet for over a month with the other times. and i cant see why you have to use there router and why the belkin i have wont connect

Encapsulation: PPPoA
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Multiplexing: VC
MTU: 1492

Your joking right?

Why should any customer have to wait a week to resume internet service free router or not?

The free router (obviously not really free, your paying for it somewhere) is just their to help Sky reduce support costs by having a standard platform and firmware to work on.

They should let you connect up your own kit, whether there's some waiver on support is another matter. Even if its only short term to cover issues like this, if the customer wants to go out and buy a router same day they should be allowed.

AFAIK Sky is the only ISP in the UK that does this, doesn't that tell you something?

Yes that is what mine are but still wont connect

Yes very true GMAN98 they are the only ones. and i really cant see how its my router when i have tired the belkin and that wont connect either so looks like i will be waiting until friday for new one and i bet it still wont work

Edited by deleted (Tue 03-May-11 09:28:36)

I will log in and check everything else. I remember there was something strange I had to do (but can't remember what) getting it working last time..... However I am at work at the moment.

Thanks NickyJ if you could that would be great as i could really do with getting it working i am on btfon at the mo and it costs £5 a day

When my Sky router failed in 2009 Sky were perfectly happy for me to use my router while I waited for the replacement. It was trivially simple to configure my SpeedTouch 586 to work on Sky.

The absence of any problem when using my own router was discussed in detail with Sky Support and provided the confirmation Sky required that the root cause of the problem was indeed a failed router. At no time was any comment made against the use of my router in these circumstances; in fact it was encouraged as part of the diagnostic process.

Just use your own router and get on with it.

JPL

Google is your friend

Sky BroadBand with a Belkin Router

In reply to a post by cornishweb:

Yes very true GMAN98 they are the only ones. and i really cant see how its my router when i have tired the belkin and that wont connect either so looks like i will be waiting until friday for new one and i bet it still wont work

Do you have all of the details you need? Does your old router still fire up so you can extract the username/password details? If not and Sky won't give you them over the phone your out of luck I'm afraid

In reply to a post by wanapoo:

Google is your friend

Sky BroadBand with a Belkin Router

Yep you certainly need your pppoa username/password from your router or from Sky over the phone

Hi i have my user name and pass but it just wont connect does anyone have the file with the settings on ?

The Belkin set-up wizard should auto detect the settings and all you need to do is enter the username/password.

Does it show anything on the router logs as to why its not connecting? Maybe PPPoA authentication failed or something?

all the lights go green then the connection light goes red after a few secs

What about the logs on the router, what are they saying?

Just says not connected but when sky watch as i turn the router on they say its up

Checking my sky d-link router settings, sky seem to have changed network type to MER, and VCI 40.........anyone else with this change?

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

In reply to a post by wanapoo:

Google is your friend

Sky BroadBand with a Belkin Router

Yep you certainly need your pppoa username/password from your router or from Sky over the phone

Erm, not really sure you read ALL of the details from the link. The guy who is using a Belkin Router on Sky Broadband had to change his Belkin MAC ADDRESS to match the MAC ADDRESS from the sky router as its part of the sky login details.

In reply to a post by wanapoo:

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

In reply to a post by wanapoo:

Google is your friend

Sky BroadBand with a Belkin Router

Yep you certainly need your pppoa username/password from your router or from Sky over the phone

Erm, not really sure you read ALL of the details from the link. The guy who is using a Belkin Router on Sky Broadband had to change his Belkin MAC ADDRESS to match the MAC ADDRESS from the sky router as its part of the sky login details.

Yes but I'm saying you certainly NEED the pppoa details, did you read my post?

Hi i just changed mine to 40 and now all the lights are green but still no internet and still says not connected ? and can i ask what MUR is

Hi just added my MAC addy but it asks for a user name does anyone know what i put because it wont except the sky one ?

@Cornishweb.

As per your other post where you said you already have your login name and password. Where did you actually get them from?

Hi i got them off a link on the sky user forums had to put my MAC code in and serial

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

The Belkin set-up wizard should auto detect the settings and all you need to do is enter the username/password.

Does it show anything on the router logs as to why its not connecting? Maybe PPPoA authentication failed or something?

@GMAN, Yes I read your post, but have you read your own post?

Can you tell me what you did to get your login name and password from your sky router please.

Edited by deleted (Tue 03-May-11 13:27:35)

@Wanapoo Hi i got them off a link on the sky user forums had to put my MAC code in and serial

Can you do it again HERE

Hi that's the site i got it from the first time

can you plug the sky router in and look in the menu's to see if Sky may have change either the serial or mac code during a software update.

It might be worth double checking that digits like 0 and 1 haven't been mixed up with letters such as o and l and that case is correct.

How do i log on to the sky router again i have forgot ?

Someone else will have to answer that as I've no idea!

Ok on now but where do i find the serial and MAC code ?

In reply to a post by wanapoo:

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

The Belkin set-up wizard should auto detect the settings and all you need to do is enter the username/password.

Does it show anything on the router logs as to why its not connecting? Maybe PPPoA authentication failed or something?

@GMAN, Yes I read your post, but have you read your own post?

I have... and that is usually all you need to do. Do you need to do even more reading Mr argumentative?

Skyuser is the best place to read up on this:-

http://www.skyuser.co.uk/forum/extracting-sky-router...

http://www.skyuser.co.uk/forum/extracting-sky-router...

Been on sky user forums got no help

Its a shame your using a Belkin because unlike other decent routers they don't have a syslog you can access from the menu, that would tell you straight away if its a problem with your PPPoA username/password

Just tried changing the user name from numbers to letters and the connection is still green which means i am connected its driving me mad

I would expect your Internet light to be green anyway, that just means it has sync'd ok to the exchange, it doesn't reflect the next stages (RADIUS authentication)

In reply to a post by cornishweb:

Hi i just changed mine to 40 and now all the lights are green but still no internet and still says not connected ? and can i ask what MUR is

MER is MAC Encapsulated Routing, Sky customers connected to their new Alcatel isams have been switched from using PPPoA to MER on a different virtual circuit by recent router firmware updates.

Even if your Sky router now uses MER, it is still possible to connect using PPPoA using VPI= 0 and VCI= 38.

ok thanks

Do you know if the firmware update and migration to MER is only for MPF customers, or MPF and SMPF customers? I'm on SMPF and I'm still on D-Link firmware 1.11 and PPPoA, and it's been months since the 2.04 rollout started.

The firmware update would be for all d-links, it apparently does fix a few bugs as well as add support for MER. The rollout does seem very slow though, maybe sky were expecting problems. Currently at least, sky are only using MER on their new "ISAMs" (which I gather is Alcatels brand name for an MSAN). As a SMPF customer, you could be on either set of hardware, although they'd presumably favour easynet's DSLAMs, if there was one with an available port at your exchange when your ADSL was taken over by Sky.

In reply to a post by AbandonShip:

As a SMPF customer, you could be on either set of hardware, although they'd presumably favour easynet's DSLAMs, if there was one with an available port at your exchange when your ADSL was taken over by Sky.

First hop after the router is *.isp.sky.com.

I think you must be on one of the new isams then.
I'm on an ex-easynet dslam, and my gateway is **.**.uk.easynet.net, and the detailed ADSL stats indicate that the dslam's chipset (CO vendor) is globspan. I think the new hardware uses a broadcom chipset.

Edited by AbandonShip (Tue 03-May-11 22:28:45)

only adsl isp

virgin media have started locking people into using hubs and superhubs with the predicted complaints.

In reply to a post by cornishweb:

Hi been with sky 2 years but never again, my router broke and they told me i have to wait 7 days for new one so got my user name and pass from the net and tried my belkin but still no joy so moving away from them now as having to use there router sucks when it breaks and you have to wit 7 days for new one

7 days is a bit long, they should send one right away, certainly since they supply the router in the first place.
But then Bt can takes ages as well, I have known people wait for a week to get a router from BT.


My ISp don't supply a router, I using my old speedtouch, but I have also got a Netgear for a spare. Always have a spare router, it save s a lot of problems.


I don't think that Sky taking 7 days is a excuse to leave them mind you.

Been 7 days now still no router and i do have my own router and got my user name and pass from the net because sky don't give you that either. but it wont work i have tired everything so i now think its not my router that is faulty ?. and i think 7 days is a joke to wait for a router its 2011 not 1911

Try the Sky router again, see if you can get some line stats from it.

New router come today and works must be a setting that stops my belkin from working.but i am still leaving sky because if it happens again i will have to wait another 7 days

Get your new username and password and try the Belkin again.

Might do after but to be honest cant see the point when i am leaving sky

To prove the Belkin is fine and it was an account issue, or not.

Yep

Virgin are having a rough ride, loads of complaints about the Superhub and now Xbox Live, PSN and PC Online gaming all virtually unplayable for weeks and still unplayable for most because of their new traffic management policy !

@BatBoy yes will give it a try and see if it works but there could of been a setting that i missed

Edited by deleted (Thu 05-May-11 20:50:33)

Probably not going to happen again though for a few years is it?

In the mean time you could investigate why the Belkin would not work.

Unless you have Be/o2 on your exchange you would be foolish to leave Sky. Sky value for money are pretty much unbeatable.

Just realised this is wrong

VPI/VCI: 0/40

And I remembered the other thing I had to change was the DNS server address. I had to change it to 90.207.238.97 I think that was the change that got mine working.

In reply to a post by cornishweb:

New router come today and works must be a setting that stops my belkin from working.but i am still leaving sky because if it happens again i will have to wait another 7 days

Yeah I don't blame you! Any company that won't drop everything and put you before their other customers doesn't deserve your business.

In reply to a post by Finguz:

In reply to a post by cornishweb:

New router come today and works must be a setting that stops my belkin from working.but i am still leaving sky because if it happens again i will have to wait another 7 days

Yeah I don't blame you! Any company that won't drop everything and put you before their other customers doesn't deserve your business.

Think that is a little unfair Finguz. The requirement from Sky in Ts&Cs to use their router causes major problems if that router has to be replaced for any reason - an unusable Internet connection for a week just because you are tied into their router (at least as far as Ts&Cs go) is a difficult pill to swallow. The OP is entitled to consider that requirement significant and enough to trigger a move to another ISP.

I'm with Sky and I signed up knowing full well that they required me to use their kit. Nobody forced me to sign up and nobody forced the OP either. If he now is complaining about it, perhaps next time he shouldn't be so hasty to sign his life away?

You may feel my post was unfair but I don't see it. He knew what to expect so he has nothing to [censored] about, especially as he now has his second free router

If the lack of internet was an issue he could have bought a dongle and then flogged it on the bay or thought ahead and not signed up with Sky.

Either way, I have no sympathy whatsoever. Nor would I expect any if I had been so hasty. People need to learn to be responsible for all their decisions, not only the ones that make them look good.

Edited by Finguz (Fri 06-May-11 17:04:40)

Its not free and like most people I doubt he's read the small print, in fact unless you know where your looking its hard to even find the relevant bit that covers this

I'm with the OP, its rubbish service having to wait X days for replacement. They should let you use your own router and certainly be willing to provide the info to let you do it especially when their kit fails.

Remember the OP's issue is a result of failed Sky kit, does it say anywhere in the T&C's it will take up to 7 days to get a replacement? I doubt it

BT supply the Homehub but your able to use your own kit, that's the way it should be and how all other ADSL ISP's do it

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

BT supply the Homehub but your able to use your own kit, that's the way it should be and how all other ADSL ISP's do it

Agreed. All these locked routers will be destined for the local landfill once the customer leaves Sky, surely can't be good for the environment and something the EU should pressure. It's worse than O2 in my opinion, at least O2 take them back when the customer leaves them, but Sky don't want them back and leave it up to the consumer to bin.

Incidentally Sky have admitted the wireless on their latest router is complete pants, so for many customers they are unable to have a stable wireless connection with Sky's supplied router: http://helpforum.sky.com/t5/Broadband-Technical-Issu...

P.S. "a small number of customers" is a misprint, it is in fact "a great many customers".

Never thought of it like that to be honest, yeah I mean I'm sure there's a way to hack them and put your own firmware on if you do enough googling but how many "average" customers would do that, your right... probably straight in the landfill

LOL!!

Of course its free! People pay £15 per month at the most for truly unlimited 24/7, the damn router is free.

The environment has nothing to do with someone whining about having no internet either, you can do better than that.

Also, if you don't read the smallprint, you have it coming

Edit: This has jack to do with BT. Sky's terms and conditions make it abundantly clear that you have to use their router, BT is a different ISP. If you don't like the rule, you don't sign up with Sky.

It's not rocket science.

Edited by Finguz (Sat 07-May-11 10:51:13)

But surely we can all agree it would be a good thing if Sky would allow people to use their own routers.

@Finguz only pay sky £7.50 a month and yes its my fault i should never of joined them in the first place, and will never join any again where you have to use there router, i just think you should be allowed to use your own if you want to.

Nothing in life is free, surely you know that? Your paying for the router with your monthly charge.

And I ask again, does it say "A replacement router will take 7 days+ to send to you in the event of a failure" ?

so whats the options open to you now to get a similar service, two times the price, 3 per month? within a couple of months you could have paid for routers over and over.

i realise you would like to have the ability to use your own kit, but for paying a fraction of the monthly cost (for a like for like service) you have to take a bit of the bad with the good?

Ok Mr sky fanboy , sky will indeed try and charge you for a new router . You can normally fight this and get it for free but this will delay the already unacceptably long replace time .

It's important that this router replacement failing are posted about , so people can be made aware of the facts , as there is nothing in the term and conditions to say about how long sky take to replace there routers .

I will admit that I'm not with sky for many reasons but there having to use there own router , only being one of them and telling people to read there terms when unhappy about replacement time , is so weak it is on the side of ridiculous .

I'm confident if you where in the same situation , you also would be unhappy at losing internet for 7 days , when we all know there are 24 hour parcel services .

I don't take the full sky service , as in I only take there satellite tv .

This has let me get a half price deal for the last two years from sky , so having my phone and broadband with TalkTalk and television with sky works out allot cheaper for me , because of the £30 a month discount I get from sky on there tv service , that I would not be able to negotiate if my phone and broadband where also with them .

So its not always the smartest thing to tie everything up with one company IMHO .

Yeah, that's another odd thing. After 12 months if the router breaks you have to buy another router from Sky because you are not permitted to use any other. Nice little earner!

Tell me what percentage of his £7.50 per month goes towards the router? If he's only there for 12 months they will make £90 out of him, so it's either a free router or free internet for 12 months

£90 quid and people think it's something to complain about when he had to wait a week for his second free router. When he leaves at the end of the contract Sky will have lost money [censored]!

Edited by Finguz (Sun 08-May-11 17:00:58)

LOL not at all, but complaining about waiting a week for a free router is just nonsense regardless of ISP.

A friend has been with Sky for 4 years and has just got a free upgrade to Sky's new wireless N router, making a total of 5 free routers in 4 years.

What were you saying about having to buy another from them?

Edit: I never told him to read anything. I said people who don't read terms and conditions wave their right to whine I'm afraid. If you can't be bothered to see what you just signed 12 months of your life away for, is that my fault, or Sky's or BT maybe?

Edit: The OP has happily admitted it was his fault, so if he can see it, maybe you should too?

Edited by Finguz (Sun 08-May-11 17:00:28)

Well they obviously will loose him as a customer because of this, so... it can't be a good thing can it?

How much do you actually think it costs Sky per Netgear router it probably costs more to send them to the customer than what they pay for them.

Nothing is free, you pay for everything somewhere.

I might be missing something here. You do not have to have Sky TV to keep their phone & BB service.

Correct

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

Well they obviously will loose him as a customer because of this, so... it can't be a good thing can it?

How much do you actually think it costs Sky per Netgear router it probably costs more to send them to the customer than what they pay for them.

Nothing is free, you pay for everything somewhere.

LOL! The guy is clearly very impatient, I don't know anybody who would leave after waiting a week for something free, do you?

Choice is always nice when compared to no choice ( I use my own router anyway ) but if it is a sticking point for you, then you shouldn't sign on the line.

I haven't noticed Sky having a lack of customers so I think the issue is being blown out of all proportion, and like I have said already, you don't have to sign up if you don't like the rules.

What's the problem?

Edit: I think the cost of the routers will be negligible, especially when you consider how cheap the broadband is for a top quality unlimited connection.

Edited by Finguz (Mon 09-May-11 09:56:39)

I dunno I wouldn't like to wait a week without net access

I only said before that you were "a little unfair" - as in I agree with what you say but do feel it is not quite as black and white as you make it.

A week without Internet can be difficult for some (and last time I did it I did get a mobile router to enable me to stay online, does cost a bit though).

And as far as free - you "could" say that the fact I would still be paying for the Internet for the week I would be waiting for a router means that I would be paying for no service - so could say that is a cost to waiting for the modem.

What Sky could do is to allow people to use their own routers but insist the Sky router is used for all support work. But there are other benefits for Sky from having a known router base.

Personally, I use the Sky router. I had a couple of days at the start waiting for the router to arrive (PS if you leave sky do NOT throw away or sell the router if you may ever go back again as they will expect you to use the router they have already provided).

But, even though I use their router it would be good to have my own to give me more control over the connection. I would almost prefer it if they gave you an ethernet modem and allowed you to plug your own router into that (that way they control the important connection part but you control what happens after that).

I may well do something similar later using a 2nd router but it would be another thing drawing power and at the moment the convenience of control is outweighs the inconvenience of more devices.

Edited by ian72 (Mon 09-May-11 14:14:10)

Well if I were the OP and looking at how much he pays, if he has a good service (apart from this 7 day waiting time) I'd look at picking up a cheap Dlink DSL2640B on eBay (Belkin's are rubbish IMO so I'd get rid of it)

Configure up the Dlink and make sure it works ok and then save it for if/when the supplied router fails again, or.. .just use the Dlink regardless it beats the pants off of the Netgear's Sky provide anyway

Indeed Gman98. I have a spare router and if mine failed I would set it up to use it whilst waiting for a new one. I can't be bothered to run foul of the sky Ts&Cs by using my own long term or I would have done so already (my previous existence with sky about 3 years ago I did use my own router).

In reply to a post by cornishweb:

Yes very true GMAN98 they are the only ones. and i really cant see how its my router when i have tired the belkin and that wont connect either so looks like i will be waiting until friday for new one and i bet it still wont work

Hi,

I have heard that Sky lock the line to the mac address of the router they supplied.
If so this might explain why otehr modems don't work.

Can you change the mac address the "new" router presents to the exchange?

I have used a speedtouch 585 the day after DLM finished, and have continued to do so for two years without any problems. Using the Sky supplied router the snr was all over the place. With the speedtouch and DMT it is very stable.

Well you can use your own router, if you don't mind ignoring their policy and you can get the login details out of the Sky router or a helpful staff member

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

I dunno I wouldn't like to wait a week without net access

Same here, I 'd go insane! Which is why I'd just pop out and buy a cheap dongle then sell it on. Although I could just use my Android

Edited by Finguz (Tue 10-May-11 12:15:17)

Hi i now have a wireless dongle which orange give me for free so when ever it happens again i wont have to pay BT open zone £5 a day but if sky had just give me a little help setting up my own router that would of been fine

Edited by deleted (Wed 11-May-11 13:12:16)

Hi i now have a wireless dongle which orange give me for free

I hope you're right. After all you seem to be unable to understand that you signed up to terms and conditions with Sky that required you to use their router. Why you expect support to set up a third party router is beyond me.

No not expect at all just think they could of helped that's all. i help people all day with web design and stuff when i don't really have to but i like to help others. but i know not everyone is like me and that's fine.

Edited by deleted (Wed 11-May-11 14:48:37)

In my mind you have every right to expect help or some good will gesture for your down time with Sky. Its ok to say use their own router T&Tcs blah blah, however waiting 7 days for a replacement is far from acceptable.

It could be worse you could have waited 7 days for another router only to find it was worse than the first one sent out.I've just hooked my Netgear up after getting the user/pass and will wait for this new firmware to arrive for the Sagem.

however waiting 7 days for a replacement is far from acceptable.

I quite agree. However you can't expect an ISP to provide support for every router on the market. If you don't like the "must use the supplied router" don't sign up. It's quite obvious really.

Not sure the OP was asking for support on every router though?

He was asking to be able to use his own router which Sky have gone out of their way to make difficult by withholding key information and possibly using mac address restrictions to prevent it.

There's a massive difference between doing that and by saying "well.. sorry if its not our kit your own their own for support"

Every other DSL ISP manages to let others use their own kit?

does every other dsl supplier charge £7.50 p/m for a truely unlimited product ?
(we both know the answer to this!)
and this makes my earlier point - if you are wanting better support, quicker response, next day courier for routers etc, you will need to pay for it via a more expensive supplier, i think you kept trying to hammer the point (if not you apologies) that the "free" router is not free you will pay for it somewhere etc - well the same could be said of a more expensive supplier, you will pay for the ability to get a replacement router "next day"ed to your house in the monthly charge.

even if you ignore all the t+c's issues, the support for only one router etc
£7.50 p/m for no limit access (time or data) you have to accept that you are not paying for a 99.999% SLA response time product and accept if you do hit a snag, it might take a few days longer to fix

to the op?
did they get the part to you in the 7 days?
are you still going to ditch them and move - if yes may i ask to whom (how much etc)?

In reply to a post by The_Jimster:

does every other dsl supplier charge £7.50 p/m for a truely unlimited product ?

I'm not entirely sure that allowing but not supporting third party routers on their network would cost Sky any money. What is probably costing Sky money is the flood of support calls caused by Sky's latest Sagem router, which has serious problems.

Has Sky kicked anyone off for using a non Sky supplied router?

No

Sky have gone out of their way to make difficult by withholding key information and possibly using mac address restrictions to prevent it.

That clearly isn't the case. I have been using my own router for over three years without problems. I found how to extract the username and password from the supplied router, and how to set up my router without having to phone Sky. Many, many others have done the same.

In reply to a post by wingco1:

Sky have gone out of their way to make difficult by withholding key information and possibly using mac address restrictions to prevent it.

That clearly isn't the case. I have been using my own router for over three years without problems. I found how to extract the username and password from the supplied router, and how to set up my router without having to phone Sky. Many, many others have done the same.

I agree you can certainly do that, I also know of many people that have, but someone also stated (CBA looking) that they also lock down the mac address, I don't know how much truth there is in that, not much I suspect.

Either way, you had to extract your details Sky didn't offer them up to you when you asked?

It seems to be hit an miss, most Sky reps will refuse, some will tell you

In reply to a post by The_Jimster:

does every other dsl supplier charge £7.50 p/m for a truely unlimited product ?
(we both know the answer to this!)
and this makes my earlier point - if you are wanting better support, quicker response, next day courier for routers etc, you will need to pay for it via a more expensive supplier, i think you kept trying to hammer the point (if not you apologies) that the "free" router is not free you will pay for it somewhere etc - well the same could be said of a more expensive supplier, you will pay for the ability to get a replacement router "next day"ed to your house in the monthly charge.

even if you ignore all the t+c's issues, the support for only one router etc
£7.50 p/m for no limit access (time or data) you have to accept that you are not paying for a 99.999% SLA response time product and accept if you do hit a snag, it might take a few days longer to fix

to the op?
did they get the part to you in the 7 days?
are you still going to ditch them and move - if yes may i ask to whom (how much etc)?

I'm fine with all of that. I'm saying that it is not crystal clear (or not clear enough) when you sign up that:-

You have to use their router
A replacement can take up to 7 days

If those two facts stuck out like a sore ....

then I'm sure it would raise some eyebrows regardless of cost.


Anyway...... I'm convinced that this is a bit of fuss over nothing, I think the OP's Belkin isn't quite right, in terms of it being faulty or not set-up right.

I'm sure if he'd had a different model of router, another Netgear or Dlink we wouldn't still be chatting about it

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

someone also stated (CBA looking) that they also lock down the mac address, I don't know how much truth there is in that, not much I suspect.

They certainly don't lock the MAC address for PPPoA sessions, but I don't know about MER which some people have been migrated to.