Plus.net dead?

Hi

Since early this morning our connection has dropped and wont connect.

The customer service line just rings and rings (just got a service annoucement saying something is broken (using another connection!))

The most telling thing though:
http://www.plus.net/support/broadband/network/broadband_bandwidth_usage.shtml

On the last chart - both the red and black lines have hit ZERO at about 8am today - suggesting that Plus.net have dropped all their customers.

Anyone else having problems?

Mine was working fine until I came to work at 7.55am

Just got this (yay Nildram still works!)
- -
Service: Internet Connectivity
Posted: Thu, Aug 17 2006 at 08:20:46
Subject: Connectivity problems (ref 34669) - NEW

We are currently investigating a problem with connectivity to some of our London services at Telehouse. This may be causing problems with broadband connectivity along with access to servers such as email and usenet.We will post a further update here when we have more definitive information on the problem and its impact.
- -

Sounds like a biggie to me...

http://usertools.plus.net/status/archive/1155799246.htm has just been raised.

Network problems for Metronet users as well...(well, I'm aware of at least two users on different exchanges!)

TTL expired in transit.

You would hope pretty much everything in Telehouse has a redundant hot-swap on standby, seeing as its so important and all...

Plus.net dont really seem any more reliable than any other ISP I have used. In fact I am sure some might have something to say about that... But lets try to focus on the current outage here.

Glad it's not just me with zero connection! It went off about 0810.. The free dialup number doesn't work either!

And now:

Service: Internet Connectivity
Posted: Thu, Aug 17 2006 at 08:59:00
Subject: onnectivity problems (ref 34669) - Update
Our engineers are currently working on an issue effecting several of our services located in London. This is believed to be due to a power issue that may be effecting other companies, rather than just ourselves. This data centre is used to house part of our ADSL platform, meaning that a large number of customers may currently be without internet access and will have problems when they attempt to reconnect. There are also issues with the mysql, ccgi, and two of the caching DNS servers that are used to perform DSN lookups by customers. Part of the email platform is also located here, which means that some customers might experience problems when attempting to send email or access the webmail platform. This also means that our telephone support line is unavailable, and customers attempting to contact us via phone will hear it continue to ring rather than being answered by the phone system.
- -

I like that last bit - they arent even answering the phone, and you cant raise a ticket as your connection is down, and the backup dial up is down. Eggs and basket anyone?

Good job I setup my users with a completely different dialup account...

great redundancy huh?!

My PlusNet connection is still working fine. My router has been connected continuously for days though which might have something to do with it.

I lost my connection around 8:10 this morning as well. I recently signed up to Plus Net after being unceremoniously dumped by E7 so am a little disgruntled. Hopefully the problem will have been resolved by the time I return home.

Power issue at Telehouse North.

What happened to the good old UPS, power generator, etc??

My connection was working fine this morning until it dropped. In fact, the adsl connection is still working, it is only Plus Net that isn't responding (error 718 - computer not responding)

Jenny

The graph here - http://www.plus.net/support/broadband/network/broadband_bandwidth_usage.shtml - shows that 50,000 users are still connected (red line), but ZERO customers are "online and downloading" (black line). I guess its possible that some portion/gateway is online still - but going from those stats it looks like every PN customer is hosed.

Its odd that PN claim "other telehouse customers" are having problems too - like anyone might actually care that other companies might not have generators or UPS systems either... Yes, Telehouse might have a problem, but should PN have better backup considering thats what they always claim differentiates them?

Also see - http://portal.plus.net/supportpages.html?a=212 - calls gone off the chart and the queue stats stopped updating at 08:33... What a co-incidence!

Something else to pass the time - from a year ago - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/30/telehouse_power_failure/

Its been 2 hours now.

Edited by plusnet_fan (Thu 17-Aug-06 10:09:57)

I've not had any problems so far this morning (/touches woood, hastily), so it's certainly not "everyone".

T.

My internet was dead this morning too

I would bet on "the majority"!

It'll be a extra-special 2 years ahead of every other ISP UPS system mate, it'll be in place but knowing plusnet no-one will know how to use the damn thing.

"I guess its possible that some portion/gateway is online still - but going from those stats it looks like every PN customer is hosed."

It seems PN have partially lost power in both of their suites in Telehouse North. I can see two out of three ERX's offline. All the core routing equipment is online though. I would guess the stats are hosed too. Knowing the power layout of the suites concerned it seems an odd outage. I guess the commando sockets affected lead back to the same Telehouse kit.

"Its odd that PN claim "other telehouse customers" are having problems too - like anyone might actually care that other companies might not have generators or UPS systems either"

It gives an idea of the scale of the problem if other folks are affected. Telehouse provide UPS backup. I imagine PN will be discussing why it hasn't kicked in.

TT

Well of course it's coincidental to see a massive increase in call volume when there's a major outage!!! Nothing even remotely surprising about that. The same would be expected of any other ISP, company, organisation, in fact anyone with a call centre that provides a service.

Good to see the call centre heaving with staff then eh........

http://www.plus.net/webcams/

From what I've read they say 'may' not 'are' experiencing problems, other Telehouse residents that is.

Andrew

Dont become a victim of your success!

Take a look at the basics guys.

First Mail boxes go missing (No redundancy/poor backup)
Now a power outage which takes out both support line and broadband connection!

It may not be down to you that the power has failed but there are plenty of other companies using tele house that seem to be ok. What have they got that you have not?

This should be a wakeup call or the only Redundancy you will be talking about is the 'p**s poor minimum capped @

From PUG thread:


August 17, 2006, 10:25:02 AM
Customers should now have more joy in connecting. We have by passed a radius issue and we are now seeing 3 BT Centrals as full as well as all LLU Customer having the ability to connect.

Simon Day
Network Improvement Consultant
PlusNet Plc

In reply to:

---

I like that last bit - they arent even answering the phone, and you cant raise a ticket as your connection is down, and the backup dial up is down

---

It got worse. By the time I rang them (~09:15) it didn't even ring; just ~30secs of silence then a continuous tone. On one occassion I did get a BT(?) message "this number is temporarily unavailable. Please try later".

IIRC doesn't their phone system use VoIP and, when it was introduced came in for a lot of flak about this very situation but someone from PN said that they had this covered with an alternative system?

I believe these customers may be back up and running now

Andrew

Seems it went down in stages then. According to the logs on my mail server, the last time it connected to PN was 07:27 (it checks every 3 minutes).

Both suites are in the same room and I would imagine they are fed by the same Telehouse kit. Only two or three other Telehouse customers may be affected, if the outage is only confined to that room. LINX and Netscalibur have presence in there and one other I can't quite remember.

TT

Looks like us BT-loopers are coming back online now too...

Thats almost 3 hours of no ADSL, dialup backup or phone - or option to call PN support I think.

Bye bye bye...PlusNet!

They turned the phones off?! Great service!

All back on here as of 5 mins ago

But "may" infers "are" in this context. And you could claim that any point in time that anything "may" affect others. It doesnt give an indication of the scale, as I (and probably many others) have no idea of the size of Telehouse.

We have heard tales of woe in the way PN have UPS configured in the past at their HQ, so it doesnt seem surprising that the UPS arent setup for full redundancy in Telehouse either.

Its nice to see they have resorted to consultants too.

We couldn't even connect on dialup to do a mail pull from the smtp autoturn server.
If things don't pickup in the next few months then I'll definately pull the plug on our 2 business accounts. We need a reliable service and simply put Plusnet don't fit this profile anymore.

Shoddy service !!

I've looked around some ADSL providers and don't see anything.

The fact I am posting this tells me that the whole of telehouse docklands has not gone down, its where our servers are. Telehouse has several UK locations, so its not 100% clear if we are talking about Docklands or another Telehouse building.

Power in Data Centres is often an issue during the hottest weather, so to get problems when its a bit cooler is a surprise.

Andrew

Our servers in Telehouse North were not affected either.

I imagine the fuse in the 4 Way probably went.

Their service is truly shocking.. either they are incompetent or have the worst luck in the business, either way I'm outa here once my first year is up.

Still cant connect via pop3 but at least I can now brows the web.

The damn thing has been down since before 8.30 am this morning. Can't even
access via dial up. The first 2 hours each morning are our busiest time and
we can't be contacted AGAIN. The [censored] web site is down so people can't
even access our phone number
Anyone recommend an alternative unlimited access that also provides hosting?

Now come on - be fair - I am sure they would have had a redundany hot-swap standby 13 amp fuse...

Newnet have recently introduced some interesting business deals which I'm looking closely at in light of todays problems.

too be fair. if it was telhouse its not exactly plusnets fault.

This would have to be the first major service outage that i can remember that wasnt their fault.

Not exaclty having alot of luck :/

To be fair though - I dont think it is the major Telehouse outage that they are making out. Nobody I have spoken to so far today who has kit there has heard *anything* about an outage.

I'm not experiencing any problems here.

Oh, that's right I'm on Nildram

The outage appeared to have affected one room at Telehouse North. Within one room are a number of suites which are occupied by different providers. PN have two suites in that particular room which is why they're seeing major problems.

TT

but why does a problem with 1 room affect the whole network? Most networks have rescilliant WAN centres - in different parts of the country.

If there is a power problem then the kit should be run on two independant supplies, like the WAN centre at my work place. UPS A & UPS B feeds into a Generator then Generator out...this is amateur...

Not exaclty having alot of luck :/
-----
The more I practice, the luckier I get.
:Gary Player

Simon

"either they are incompetent or have the worst luck in the business"

you got it right first guess.

Network Improvement Consultant eh.........................*rolls eyes*

I'm not experiencing any problems here either and I am on PlusNet. They do have 2 sites for termination and only one of them is down.

It would have been one of the new 2 year ahead of other ISP's special nano-technology created superconducting 13amp fuses though, and to think theres no manual in sight!

Edited by buggerlugz (Thu 17-Aug-06 12:23:22)

I have experienced no problems at all today, so not all PlusNet customers were hosed.

Anyone recommend an alternative unlimited access that also provides hosting?

Zen

maybe plusnet's techs actually did some work recently on plusnets suite in telehouse?

so much for plusnet being 2 years ahead of the competition. I'm yet to here of any redundant systems that plusnet actually has in place when their own network falls over.

Amateur should be plusnets new name, the lack of service provision this ISP shows its customers is appalling.

I think people would be surprised at how many providers both service and content do run with similar risks, and by and large don't see this level of problem through luck mainly.

Andrew

http://usertools.plus.net/status/archive/1155813173.htm
- -
Connectivity problems (ref 34669) - Update
Internet Connectivity
Posted on: Thursday 17 August 2006, 12:12
This is an update to the previous post regarding the recent power outage at Telehouse North. The previous update can be found here:

http://usertools.plus.net/status/archive/1155805932.htm

At 7.50am, there was a power outage at Telehouse North, affecting a number of their server suites. This resulted in two of our BT Central's, our RADIUS servers, CGI Servers and some other services to fail. As a result, half of the customers that we had connected at this time lost their connection to the internet. Because our RADIUS servers were down, we were unable to accept any new connections.

At 10am, RADIUS was restored allowing all of our LLU customers to reconnect, and a number of our customers supplied over the BT network were also able to reconnect. At this time we reached the session limit on our remaining BT Central's (there is a limit in the number of simultaneous connections that each BT Central Pipe can support).

At approximately 11am we were able to revert to our backup telephone system, which is allowing our customers to call the Customer Support Centre, although the Interactive Voice Response (IVR) will not be operational.

We are aware that customers are unable to access their CGI space, webmail, or the 0808 and 0845 backup dialup services. Email for those using email clients such as Outlook Express will continue to work.

We are also aware that the Broadband Bandwidth Graphs are reporting inaccurate data, as the equipment that supplies this information is stored at Telehouse North and has also been affected.

We are continuing to work with the engineers at Telehouse North, and they are supplying us with half hourly updates, and we shall continue to update our customers in regards to the further restoration of our broadband connectivity, CGI, webmail and dialup services.

Kind Regards,
James Bailey
Customer Comms Co-Ordinator
- -

<cough> Still a few services to bring back then...

From PUG forum:

Reply #30 on: August 17, 2006, 12:30:48 PM

Yep, the friend who asked for the MAC code went down, then up for an hour, back down again.

Beggars belief that they don't even have a UPS so that maintence can happen without downtime. Obviously relying on the DC's UPSes, I'd assume, which in my experience is always a mistake (ask Dreamhost).

The funniest bit is that their backup dialup system is also down.

Info via the PUG forum (pcsni):

Claranet- also affected- state that "Telehouse have now identified the cause of the failure to be a phase supply having burned through........."

http://www.claranet.co.uk/servicestatus/claranet.php

any chance plusnet will give all users a months free subscription due to the constant disconnections ?

Mine has been down since 7:40 this morning and still cant get connected

i signed up to the email alerts from the plusnet usergroup and the amount of emails you get regarding problems is huge !

dont think i will ever go down the IP phone route and that doesnt work half the time either

What about the back up dial up thats knackered aswell

It went dead here at 12.30 - just came back two minutes ago. ADSL signal was OK, but just no connection to servers at all.

So for 5 hours of lost service you want 30 days free? That's rather inflationary

I presume they have lost a phase from the three phase supply that feeds that particular suite.Lets hope it is a switchgear failure rather than a cable burning out.

Anyone else unable to get thru to their support lines?

Its just a dead number here....

Tried from 3 diff landlines and 2 mobiles with no joy.

Nope if the fuse in the 4 way goes as a PlusNet engineer you have only a few options open to you.

A) Wrap some Tin Foil around the Fuse and plug it in ( Nobody will know )
B) Put a 5A Fuse in and then state you are adding another 4way ( plugged into the first) for redundancy.
C) Cut the plug off and do the "Poke the bare wires over the two bottom holes and plug something else in" trick.

ROFL!!!!

Love it! hahahah

We are deffinately leaving ASAP cos tbh we are one of the unlucky LLU failures and since then its been slower than [censored] dialup at times with 2-3 drop outs per day and when they first swapped us over the arseholes made a stupid error then blamed bt saying the exchange was broke....

til I saw 2 engineers coming out the exchange and asked them!

It took 10 days for them to get us back on, finally admitting one of their numpties...er... support (HAHAHAHA ) guys had failed to turn on VC-Mux!!!!!!!!!!

Sod em, they used to be great, best in the business IMO but since the merger with Tiscalli and the LLU upgrade (ROFL) they are absolutely shocking!

Poor old PlusNet, they really are the John Prescott of the ISP fraternity.

An unreliable ISP effectively takes up the line, inhibiting consumers from using another service on that line, that delivers good service, so I don't think money could easily compensate for that, bearing in mind the economics of residential broadband.

That was part of my reasoning for not waiting for Plusnet to sort itself out, and for paying a little more to join Newnet.

I figured, what's the point in paying line rental to BT and having a

Tony Blair will fix it when he returns from his holiday?

I can see some similarities, but John Prescott makes less cockups than Plusnet.

quote

We are aware that customers are unable to access their CGI space, webmail, or the 0808 and 0845 backup dialup services

unquote

firstly, my connection has been off since last friday...and now even the back-up connection they offered is down.....wonderful!!!

I wish you would go away , you have nothing constructive to give this forum

Because of you and others, plusnet customers have lost its reps on this forum . As your not a customer of plusnet , it would not affect you in the slightest. As i am it affects me, im annoyed that you still take cheap pot shots at an ISP that you never used and an ISP that has done nothing to you . Some might find that a bit weird, that you have this vendetta and obsession. I know i certainly do.

You have nothing but a detrimental affect on this forum and something should of been done about you a long time ago .

"Because of you and others, plusnet customers have lost its reps on this forum"

Without getting personal, I wish you would stop saying this because we know this to be untrue. PN left because of many reasons and those reasons have been debated to death on here. If they want to come back then so be it but please don't blame people for their departure. They left and it is fact. Why they left is not really worthy a debate any more because, as I said, it has been done to death.

Furthermore, they are still present on their own forum for help if needed.

But the internet wouldn't be the internet without people posting meaningless one-liners, failed witicisms and general nothingness. Plus you can skim past his posts until you find one that's useful or fulfilling. A bit like what you should have done with this post, I suppose.

Always makes me smile that. Why those that want to use the forum should ignore those who have no need to post in it, rather than those who have no need should not post...

I agree with you about the +net staff, but i think a lot of other people who used to help do not bother anymore(or so it seems).

I think you miss the point . His meaningless one liners has meant there is hardly anything useful or fulfilling here any more . He and his elk have driven away support and users that helped other users. He has done no favours to plusnet users at all , regardless if your happy with them or not .

>>Furthermore, they are still present on their own forum for help if needed.

So that makes it OK to use this forum as an excuse to keep taking the mick out of a company you have no affiliation too ?

Your post is very shallow indeed .

So what happened is none of PlusNet's making, and this could have quite feasibly happened to any ISP?

Errrrrr, we kind of like getting side-tracked here and probably one of mods is going to start locking the thread again...

Anyway, the Register have posted this statement from Telehouse..

<Quote>

Telehouse sent us the following statement:

We have a power distribution problem within the Telehouse TFM 6 room from approximateley 08:18 this morning.

One of the 2 power distribution units (PDU 2) in this room has suffered from a power failure to one of the 3 phase outputs caused by a burnt-out cable connection. Customer power connections from L1 phase are at present unavailable from this specific PDU.

We have prepared a power work-around. Unfortunately in order to bring this work-around into service we will have to isolate PDU 2 completely for a few minutes.

This action will cause the remaining 2 phases, L2 and L3, to be affected by a short duration power outage.

We plan to carry out this emergency action at 12:00 today.

This action does not affect any power supplies connected to the PDU 1 fitted in this room where duplicated power supplies are derived for certain customer power services.

</Quote>

Source URL:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/telehouse_power_problems/

Yes and then it would be them getting the flack end of the day you cant make as many mistakes as PlusNet and not expect to be treated like the Frank Spencer of the ISP world.

Go ask Steve Rawlinson for his comments... I see ComputerWeekly mentioned LINX being OK, but Clara (which is also responsible for U-Net/ Netscalibur/ FreeUK AFAIK) was also affected.

So now your turning this in to a plusnet thing

I know full well what plusnet have got up too, i am a customer after all, are you ? If i can get over it , it begs the question why cant people who have never used them cant

At the end of the day the losers are the forum users that came here for help and got help from knowledgeable people. If you think its fair game and OK , then id say thats selfish for a user of another isp to make .

Sorry ill shut up now

Just fed up with help posts and information posts been used for vendettas . Why someone has a vendetta against a company he has never used god only knows , but still he does .

Thats it from me , please continue

I don't know if you misread my post or are willing to read it in the manner it was written but I will leave it at that because I won't be allowed to post a reasonable observation, that much is clear.

Problem is we now have a thread that is almost a vendetta about a vendetta.

If I lock it who loses?

Replying to some people is actually what they enjoy, they can see the effect they have then, often better to leave well alone, report transgressions privately and let things be dealt with.

In terms of lack of people posting with problems, this may have many reasons, for one being that there are now several places to post about Plusnet, another being a slower sign-up rate than some months ago, a fair few of the problems are described here already with the answer being you need to tell PlusNet, i.e. with the LLU issues self-help is unlikely to fix it, so people don't post. That is even without going into the area of posters who should/should not post.

Andrew

...or it could be that all the other users of Plusnet are delighted with their service.

Well it's a logical explanation.

People don't normally post when they're happy with something though the same isn't true when things go wrong.. but I digress and it'll take this thread off topic!!!

Anyway, my thinking is that it looks like Plus.net were themselves the victim of this incident and there wasn't really much that they could have done short of having a duplicate backup for the service somewhere else..

In reply to:

---

short of having a duplicate backup for the service somewhere else

---

Not meaning to be pedantic (who me?), but ( ), wouldn't corporate service agreements guarantee this sort of thing, or was it only the residential services which were affected?

I know that residential services get no guarantees whatsoever (it's called money from fools), but surely even a small company can take a small allocation of cash and arrange some sort of redundancy.

"Anyway, my thinking is that it looks like Plus.net were themselves the victim of this incident and there wasn't really much that they could have done short of having a duplicate backup for the service somewhere else."

They have three suites in Telehouse Docklands. Both Telehouse North suites are located in the same room served by the same power equipment. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that the third suite should have been located in another room or floor at Telehouse. The third suite could have been located with another datacentre provider entirely. The effect of this mornings power outage would have been substantially reduced had that been the case.

TT

But they have, they have centrals terminating in THE... What I fail to understand is why they have all their radius servers in THN and why they didnt get one and shift it to THE, its only a 10 min walk across the central area and you can pick up a coffee on the way...

I was actually referring to Plus.net having a backup service of Telehouse North somewhere else so that the telphones plus other services didn't fail like they did.

I asked the same over on PUG and apparently they do but for some reason BT's config was only using the Radius in THN. The delay in using the THE Radius was caused by getting BT to amend their config. In future it should help ease Radius load as well because BT should now be using more servers for the Radius authentication.

In reply to:

---

You would hope pretty much everything in Telehouse has a redundant hot-swap on standby, seeing as its so important and all...

---

I met the building manager for Telehouse yesterday as it happens and had a long discussion about various issues (unrelated to PN I should add).. Telehouse are clued up. (We host servers in Telehouse and have never had a problem, but this doesn't mean that we've done anything better as the problems are often localised in Telehouse--which is a good thing.. Other datacentres lose power to entire floors or half the building... or even dare I say the entire building.. or have water leaks etc..

Getting redundant dual feeds in some parts of Telehouse (such as the one we're in) is not possible.. Some datacentres will give you two feeds but they aren't redundant as you will notice when things go wrong.. Also they need to weigh the costs in proportion to the benefits.. Having small problems is not a major issue in comparison to hours and hours of downtime..

This isn't to say PlusNet can't buy UPSs for their routers and DSL termination kit (we have them on our routers.. but not AG webservers for example... we rely on Telehouse's UPSs for that).. but everything needs to be in proportion to the effects it will have.. DSL customers being offline for a few hours a year (which is probably an over estimation of average effects of problems) is not a major issue.. since DSL isn't really (at least in the way PN package it) meant to be a critical service. (reference to PN could just as well be to most ISPs.. no inference on PN..)

seb

"But they have, they have centrals terminating in THE"

3 out of the 5 centrals plus the Tiscali LLU connection are in Telehouse North.

"What I fail to understand is why they have all their radius servers in THN"

They don't. IIRC, they have a cluster in each building plus a backup cluster they can utilise in Sheffield. It is possible one cluster got swamped, in which case they need to increase the processing capacity of each cluster.

TT

In reply to:

---

It is possible one cluster got swamped, in which case they need to increase the processing capacity of each cluster.

---

While I appreciate PN have around 10 times the number of customers we deal with, we look after the Radius servers for a mobile network for one of the value added products they use on it. We have around 20k customers on radius servers (two in two locations). Radius handles auth and accounting, as well as IP block assignment, much as any ISP would. And to be quite frank, the servers are P3 / 800's and I don't believe I've ever seen then run above about 5% unless we are hacking the hell out of them running reporting. While PN may well have 200k customers, theres no genius required to see that any modern commercial server would handle the load adequately...

And I also appreciate it may be an issue of 100k connections landing at once, but we've had GGSM outages with the mobile network that have caused 10k clients to appear at once. They were all authed within a couple of mins, even on these relatively shoddy servers.

Me wonders exactly what junk PN are using for Radius "Clusters"...

In reply to:

---

They don't. IIRC, they have a cluster in each building plus a backup cluster they can utilise in Sheffield. It is possible one cluster got swamped, in which case they need to increase the processing capacity of each cluster.

---

_TT_, according to Simon on PUG, they weren't getting swamped because BT weren't sending any radius requests to them due to a config error on their part. Once BT had corrected this problem then radius requests were processed by the THE radius and the remaining 'up' centrals filled up fairly quickly.

I distinctly remember telling Plusnet originally that the phone system they were setting up had a serious flaw in it's redundancy. And guess what, thats the second or third time now I've been proven correct.

Although it is extremely cunning - in an outage, they can't get overwhelmed with support because you just can't get through. It certainly solves that problem!

In reply to:

---

our RADIUS servers

---

REDUNDANCY IS WHERE? You'd think after the last radius problems Plusnet would have re-engineered the RADIUS service completely. But instead, they left it all in one physical site. Genius. Absolute genius.

In reply to:

---

At approximately 11am we were able to revert to our backup telephone system, which is allowing our customers to call the Customer Support Centre, although the Interactive Voice Response (IVR) will not be operational.

---

And the automatic failover is...?

In reply to:

---

TT_, according to Simon on PUG, they weren't getting swamped because BT weren't sending any radius requests to them due to a config error on their part. Once BT had corrected this problem then radius requests were processed by the THE radius and the remaining 'up' centrals filled up fairly quickly.

---

So either Plusnet, or BT, failed to test this setup then I guess...?

Well to be fair nobody has any need to post in it - it's not an official (or recognised PlusNet support forum) and although the negative postings may not help PlusNet users they do serve to highlight the issues for any potential customers they may visit the forum to 'test the water' before signing up.

The truth is that some people get too much amusement from poking fun at other ISP's and other people get too upset and defensive of their chosen ISP, probably out of frustration. As for lugz and others making the Plusnet staff leave - if you believe that you need your head examined.

If you have a look through the forum most of the posts are by customers with problems and poor/non existant support. Some folks just like to target the minority of naysayers and blame them - when the truth is if they weren't here the forum would still be full of PlusNet customers having problems and poor/non-existant support as that's the way Plusnet are these days.

The reason people are here poking fun is because PlusNet are an easy target. They are an easy target as they have so many serious problems of their own making.....

Anyway - why does Dusty blame the Elk - what have they done?

I wonder whether this BT configuration error has anything to do with the Good Piie / Bad Pipe problems that people have been seeing.

Reply to Dusty please mate.

As has been seen many times before low cost isp's suffering problems if not going out of business seems to prove cheap is not always the best

They weren't always a low cost ISP for business users, at one point we were paying almost

In reply to:

---

I even tried calling the Premium support line only to be told by recorded message "This service is closed" which really cheesed me off big time.

---

So you dial the 50p a minute number it answers with that recorded message ?

You got it!!

wow

I would say that is a no no charging 50p when you call then getting a recorded message to say they are closed.

More refunds on the way !!!

Surprisingly not.

http://www.icstis.org.uk/pdfs_guidelines/Guideline3.pdf

See "Out-of-hours and overflow messages"

Apparantly as in good old Plusnet fashion...its not working theres an issue!!

No surprise really.

Now that PlusNet reps aren't on ADSLg and PlusNet customers are going to PlusNet forums, the PlusNet customers who help PlusNet customers with problems have less forums to read, they can do all the helping needed in PlusNet forums.

That's my take on the reason for customers helping customers on this forum stopping.
In fact I'm thinking that if I want to post here I should change my sig, as I don't particularly want to become a target for the PlusNet bashers.

Some people don't jump from one ISP to another all the time, and some people find that overall, PlusNet is better than many other offerrings, especially if you avoided LLU before it was stopped, avaoided Max or were one of the 90% with no problems, and don't often need any customer support.

I like PlusNet's tranparency, even if the own goals are more apparent. I don't like the idea of web only support, but a well hidden phone number is better than an Indian call centre charging premium rates with no agents capable of answering technical questions. I also like included staic IPs, web space with cgi and mysql, being able to run your own server.. a lot of things that don't appeal to the mass market, and are hard to find unless you want a bit here and a bit there, plus more money for extras. In other words I prefer a bundled IP and decent web tools than bundled phones,

As I'm making general comments, on the subject of people who bought into speeds that practically nobody could deliver, didn't it seem a little strange, paying for up to 24 mb/s when only 2 mb/s was on offer? It always seemed obvious to me that those accounts were for extra peak bandwidth, no more. There I think caveat emptor applies.

Now I'm not happy with PlusNet at the moment. There are a lot of things wrong, and if things get to bad, I'll have to leave. But it's not reached that point yet and I'm willing to give them a chance. I'm certainly not kicking them while they're down and I'm sick of the vendettas here. In fact those vendettas could well be why PlusNet customers are less likely to try to help anyone here.. if anyone posts a problem that is. So far I see complaints, speculation and rumour, not customers asking for advice or help.

"I'm sick of the vendettas here"

am i reading the same forums as you, i cant see any vendettas

As I'm making general comments, on the subject of people who bought into speeds that practically nobody could deliver, didn't it seem a little strange, paying for up to 24 mb/s when only 2 mb/s was on offer? It always seemed obvious to me that those accounts were for extra peak bandwidth, no more. There I think caveat emptor applies.
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How much extra peak bandwidth did you think was obvious? I dare say that you were alone in reaching this conclusion - considering that extra bandwidth wasn't even hinted at in the product description. Only psychics and a select few PlusNet employees could possibly have got wind of it.
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So far I see complaints, speculation and rumour, not customers asking for advice or help.
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This is a discussion forum rather than an support forum exclusively. But that doesn't mean that there aren't knowledgeable and helpful people who post here. Anyone seeking help or advice gets it. But if they seek it from PlusNet staff then they have to go elsewhere. The reason for that is that PlusNet pulled their reps out of this forum claiming abuse - which remains unproven - but more likely because they were unable to answer the criticism in a forum over which they had no control. They are back in their comfort zone now but criticism continues to be part of the rich tapestry at AG. That's life.

Simon

"How much extra peak bandwidth did you think was obvious? I dare say that you were alone in reaching this conclusion"

No they were'nt

Whilst i do not think there are vendettas,its interesting to see no help for eclipse customers who are currently going through the same LLU shift(and they dont even know which supplier there going too).Maybe the people who have done a good job in helping +net customers could help these guys aswell ?

In reply to:

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As I'm making general comments, on the subject of people who bought into speeds that practically nobody could deliver, didn't it seem a little strange, paying for up to 24 mb/s when only 2 mb/s was on offer? It always seemed obvious to me that those accounts were for extra peak bandwidth, no more. There I think caveat emptor applies.

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If you do a search on here and Plusnets own forums you will see this was not the case originally , Plusnet were caught out and had to act fast so they then made these products a higher Bandwith limit , as with many other things Plusnet tried to do - Hide they sold unlimited - hide the traffic shapping etc.

They got caught !

In reply to:

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..So far I see complaints, speculation and rumour, not customers asking for advice or help.

---

I think that Plusnet "raised the heat" with comments and actions, that sought to divide between customers and ex-customers, but I think that the logic behind doing so is questionable.

Plusnet rely primarily on a referral model, rather than costly advertising, so how can a divisive approach, that seeks to separate contributors to an open forum between customers and ex-customers, and devalue the latter, be in Plusnet's own interests?

If a customer migrates their own broadband line away, should their opinion be sidelined to the extent that they become sufficiently disenchanted with Plusnet that they seek to persuade their referrals to go elsewhere aswell?

It seems to me that the success of Plusnet's business model depends heavily on goodwill, and calculating the importance of contributions by whether a person has their own ADSL line with Plusnet, doesn't fit well with the business model.

This forum is for user comments on an ISP, specifically PlusNet.

The comments of people who have left or are planning to leave are just as relevant as comments from people electing to stay.

Personally, since I moved my adsl to another provider, I haven't felt the need to comment on PlusNet in here but I do respect the right for others to do this.

This forum wasn't set up as a help desk, though there is nothing wrong with people using it as such. I suspect the lack of posts from people helping each other is because recent "events" at PlusNet have utterly overshadowed the normal noise.

Regards

Martin

If I can help any Eclipse customers I will, if I see the request and if the LLU provider is Tiscalli.
I know something about Tiscalliw problems through PlusNet, problems so great that all LLU regrades have been halted.

Tiscalli LLU gives everyone a 12dB profile with interleaving enabled, in the hope that will make problems a great deal less. But Tiscalli don't seem to be in any hurry to fix any problems on their side reported by ISPs. They are supposed to act within 5 to 7 days, but I've seen them doing nothing after 2 weeks wih no connection.

General for LLU.
Routers and modems have to be set up correctly. BT often tolerates settings of ppoe and other than d.gmy, but LLU doesn't. So anyone on LLU with probles should first check their settings.
ppoatm, g.dmt, 0, 38.
Anything else and the connection will fail or be very slow.
Also, some modem/routers aren't capable of dealing with high speeds. USB modems are probably not a good idea, and older routers may be unable to handle the speed. I'd recomment an ADSL2+ enabled router as that should be able to handle any current speds thrown at it.

I would not refer anyone at the moment, which is a pity for PlusNet as I had a company that was tired of the many problems and non-existant support they had on freedom2surf, especially weeks of being unable to receive email.
If I moved my broadband away I'd also try to persuade my referalls to do the same, because if something isn't good enough for me it isn't good enough for others with the same expectations.

But I was reading the PlusNet forum here when the reps were pulled out, and it seemed like everyone was having a pop at PlusNet although the majority had never been customers and were never likely to be.

Such posts as 'good, the shate price has dropped yet again' are pontless and destructive, unless the posters wanted to force the price low enough to be able to buy a large chunk of shares on the cheap. That would have been worth the risk for some.

I moved away from the forum because it had become almost impossible to sort the few genuine posts from the PlusNet bashing ones.

The increased bandwidth allowances were first announced on August 15, 2005 -- many months after the launch of the Up-to-4/8MB queue-jump products. Stewart Norriss eventually admitted that customers couldn't have known anything about the alleged increased bandwidth allowances for these 'vaporware' products prior to that date.

Simon

Comments, yes. Attacks, no.

Probably if PlusNet wasn't as transparent regarding many of their problems, if they kept quiet like other ISPs, there wouldn't be the ammunition.
I see as many, or more, complaints on other ISP forums here, but I don't see the concerted attacks by ex-customers and people who have never been customers that I see on the Plusnet forum.

Do you honestly think that, say, Tiscalli is a better ISP?

I know people with them, and they have more complaints than PlusNet, genuine complaints.
True, they haven't lost all their mail, but PlusNet was at fault by allowing people to keep all their mail on the servers. IMAP and webmail is useful for short periods, but if you want a professional dedicated online mail service you pay a specialist company to provide it. At least one other ISP just delays delivery for weeks while they sort problems out, and don't answer the complaints

Do you honestly think that, say, Tiscalli is a better ISP?

Yes I do, I'll even go as far as saying AOL is a better ISP than Plusnet too. Even Tiscalli manages to not have anywhere near as many issues as Plusnet does week on week.

Maybe there is a need for plusnet as a company to have some common sense bashed into it though? Thats the point of community forums isn't it, to voice concerns and open comments?

I suppose it depends what you want from an ISP.

Have you ever been a customer of either? I have, and BT too.
They're fine providing you want what they offer and you have no problems.
Ever tried sorting any problem out with an Indian who speaks little English, who you can't understand and he can't understand you at

PlusNet does listen to customers, more now than in the past. But that is thanks to PlusNet forums, not ex-customers and non-customers bashing away fro the sake of it.

I've always found that logical argument always wins over bashing. I may be swayed by a logical argument, but if somebody tries to change my mind by bashing me over the head, I guarantee I'll go in the opposite direction to the one the basher wants.

The same for companies. As a company director I know that boards are composed of people, and people tend to react to threats in the same way, regardless of whether they are individuals or corporate entities.

Probably if PlusNet wasn't as transparent regarding many of their problems, if they kept quiet like other ISPs, there wouldn't be the ammunition.
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Do you mean "transparent" as in when they introduced network management/throttling secretly and denied its existence for weeks?

Or "transparent" as in when they started migrating customers to Tiscali LLU without warning and with no hint that they would be locked in with no escape route?

Or "transparent" as in when they tried to claim for months that Up-to-4/8MB Premier customers knew about their mythical increased data allowances?

There are many other examples of their lack of transparency. They are selectively transparent only when it suits them.
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I see as many, or more, complaints on other ISP forums here, but I don't see the concerted attacks by ex-customers and people who have never been customers that I see on the Plusnet forum.
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PlusNet make the mistake of dismissing criticism as an attack. They use the term to hide behind when they have no substantive answer to valid criticisms. If the Tiscali forum contains less criticism/fewer complaints then I would assume that they either have fewer issues than PlusNet or fewer customers/ex-customers with complaints; or better complaints handling procedures.
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I know people with them, and they have more complaints than PlusNet, genuine complaints.
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Do you have actual data to prove that or are you basing the assumption on your friends' say-so? Have you counted the complaints in the PlusNet-controlled forums? Does it matter anyway? The noise level is more a reflection of unresolved complaints and criticisms than of the total number of issues.

Simon

Too often, PlusNet have shown themselves to be impervious to logical arguments, whether made by customers, ex-customers or non-customers. The very limited set of catalysts which do seem to work with them include:

- Ofcom intervention
- Customer churn
- Adverse publicity
- Share price slump
- Litigation

Of course, these come only after logical argument has failed.

Simon

"PlusNet does listen to customers, more now than in the past. But that is thanks to PlusNet forums, not ex-customers and non-customers bashing away fro the sake of it. "

Absolute rubbish, they have acted beacuse of other forums (this one included), they have taken on board past and present customers criticism, and have begun to act on it.

The only reason, it appears that Plusnet have done something in their own forums, is:

a) They have abandoned this forum, for reasons like PR100 has pointed out

b) To keep the lid on things, ie some topics you actually have to be a member of plusnet, and so any prospective customer, even viewing the PUG forums cannot see certain improvemnet threads as they have to have a plusnet ip to register to view- that is wrong. Only once you have registered can you see the full extent of the problems and their resolve to put thing right.

c) they have only recently, shown that they are really listening and taking on board the criticism that has been aimed at them.

Before you defend them to the hilt and insult people on here, a lot of posters are either ex customers or existing customers. I myself was with Plusnet for about 6 years

Can i ask how long you have been with them?

Comments, yes. Attacks, no.

Unfortunately, it's not easy to separate the two. That would be censorship. It's up to readers of the posts to make up their own minds what is credible and what is simply malicious.

Probably if PlusNet wasn't as transparent regarding many of their problems, if they kept quiet like other ISPs, there wouldn't be the ammunition.

It was users who blew the whistle on the one way LLU migration fiasco not PN. Maybe I'm naive but I think most ISPs would have 'fessed up to losing x GB of emails.


I see as many, or more, complaints on other ISP forums here, but I don't see the concerted attacks by ex-customers and people who have never been customers that I see on the Plusnet forum.

None of the other ISPs have implimented a swinging series of changes to terms & conditions alongside a dramatic reduction in quality of service and reduced support. Since the flotation Plusnet have pursued a policy of reducing costs, attracting mass numbers of basic service users and weeding out high bandwith users. Whether that is the best way forward is up to them but many users who had "Invested" years in PlusNet and recommended them to friends didn't just feel like leaving - they felt angry. That view has been properly reflected in a number of forums, including PlusNet's moderated areas.

Do you honestly think that, say, Tiscalli is a better ISP?

I dont know. I have no experience of Tiscali. PlusNet must like them though as they're punting a large number of their own subscribers over to Tiscali wholesale every month (without telling them first or setting up a free way out again!) The argument was made that Tiscali wholesale is a better and superior animal to the Tiscali ISP. Do you think that argument has stood the test of time?

A year or two ago I would have laughed at the idea of moving from PlusNet to BT Broadband but I have and it's great. A faster connection, no throttling of non BT newsgroups, a great Home Hub for free and when I did use their support it just worked.

I'm monitoring PlusNet because it's just possible they'll find their way back again. I think it's more likely that they'll be taken over though as they dont have the critical mass to compete with their current strategy of attracting low tech low value subscribers.

Regards

Martin

Edited by arnsbrae (Sun 20-Aug-06 14:02:29)

I think one of plusnet's main thorns in its side is when someone somewhere takes critisism personally when its directed at Plusnet as a company.

Reacting as such is completely unprofessional and utimately self-defeating.

Have you every tried talking to someone at PlusNet, I have and so far with 3 weeks of trying have never managed it.

My opinion is that Plusnet attracts additional criticism, over and above other ISPs with service problems, because they irritate people through regularly communicating a high opinion of themselves.

There is a limit to how many times people can be told how great something is, before some start testing it, to see if it stands up to scrutiny. Some of the claims Plusnet make about themselves, their products, their competitors etc, are unnecessary in my opinion, and they'd get a better reception by being more modest about themselves and their achievements.

We often discuss things from a consumer perspective, but I'm curious to know also, how other ISPs for example, regard Plusnet, when they claim to be ahead of the competition in so many respects?

They have the chance to read some of the forums. People who have gained some knowledge here and understand Eclipse can help. Personally I have done some posting on the f2s support forum, of which I am also an ex-customer, about being forcible moved to LLU. f2s simply say it is our business model (until someone sues them!) and when Pipex start the same game I will be active there. But no-one can just move from forum to forum and if you know what is happeneing at Eclipse, the pass the knowledge on and encoutage them to read up the issues here to be able to apply things there.

In reply to:

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Unfortunately, it's not easy to separate the two. That would be censorship. It's up to readers of the posts to make up their own minds what is credible and what is simply malicious.

---

On other ISP forums I see a number of complaints, sometimes more than on the PlusNet forum, often about similar things. But I don't see the same kind of, what I would call malicious attacks on anyone who dares to say that PlusNet even now has some good things going for it. I stopped reading this forum shortly after the PlusNet reps were pulled out, because to me nothing constructive was being said.

In reply to:

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It was users who blew the whistle on the one way LLU migration fiasco not PN. Maybe I'm naive but I think most ISPs would have 'fessed up to losing x GB of emails.[/qoute]

I wouldn't say that anyone 'blew the whistle', but there were enough complaints and opt-outs within the PlusNet community to change things, when the situation became untenable
Both LLU and Max were a fiasco. Max because PlusNet performed mass migrations using the settings recommended by BT for very good lines, on all lines regardless of length or quality. But PlusNet did give customers the opportunity to opt out of migration to both Max and LLU in April.
A large number of customers did opt out of LLU because nobody believed that Tiscalli wholesale would be any better than retail. It was PlusNet's intention to have a number of LLU suppliers, but Tiscalli was the only one that an agreement was reached with, unfortunately.

People who opted out of LLU were LLU'd, due to the very poor communications at PlusNet. People scrambled to be put on Max regardless of their line stats, and the combination swamped PlusNet support.

In reply to:

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I dont know. I have no experience of Tiscali. PlusNet must like them though as they're punting a large number of their own subscribers over to Tiscali wholesale every month (without telling them first or setting up a free way out again!) The argument was made that Tiscali wholesale is a better and superior animal to the Tiscali ISP. Do you think that argument has stood the test of time?

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LLU regrades have been stopped completely.
Now, people have to ask for a Max regrade and have to say that they are aware that it could go wrong. LLU has been stopped. PlusNet are trying to solve their problems with Tisaclli, something I don't hold out much hope for, knowing Tiscalli's reputation, and trying to get other LLU partners. It is a great pity that only Tiscalli agreed to sell bandwidth to PlusNet. The other LLU supplier intended to do so, I think, has now agreed to supply Sky instead.

I do not like the way that PlusNet has moved this year. I think it is a disaster. This company is too small to compete with the mass market giants and does not have the large call centres to hold people's hands while they perform operations such as setting up email. IMHO PlusNet has to find a new marketing model if it is to survive. Obviously it doesn't want the very heavy users, the p2p leechers, because they are too expensive for any ISP to sustain. But there are markets that PlusNet can move into, or it could enhance what it always did so well, provide a good service to the technically knowledgeable.

High bandwidth users feel angry because they can no longer use most of the bandwidth for a very low price, but all ISPs that rely on BT have had to put caps into position. If somebody wants to use unlimited bandwidth 24/7 I don't think anyone at PlusNet would try to stop them, providing they paid for it all. Of course the cost to somebody downloading hundreds of GBs of 'linux' with p2p would be so high that a leased line would probably be more economic. The fact is that BT charges ISPs by bandwidth used, and the only way that companies such as AOL can allow that is because they have probably the largest number of customers using under a MB a month than any other ISP. In other words, the high cost of AOL to the masses subsidises the minority. But AOL is getting out of the UK market.

I used to be with BT broadband and it's terrible. The support was useless, and at premium rates always, the horrible Yahoo was encouraged as the home page, Yahoo was inescapable because it handled all the mail, the cap is less than PlusNet if you count the unlimited usage outside peak hours, and how long do you have to stay not to pay for that wonderful home hub. Also, BT tie you into a 12 month contract, so you can't leave if you don't like them. I still have a BT mailbox, but it became so full of spam when they started using Yahoo it became unusable. Maybe BT has changed now, but I don't think I'd go back. Too expensive after I've had to pay for all the extras that PlusNet provide as a part of their package. Anyway, why prefer a Home Hub to a Speedtouch router? At least other routers are well known, and that bit of gear doesn't exactly break the bank. I wonder if you can keep it and use it with another ISP if you migrate?

At least you can monitor PlusNet through their dial-up group. Leave BT and you have no access at all.

I'm hoping that PlusNet does find a way back, it has improved to some extent recently. But in the not too distant future the broadband market will have changed completely, and a large number of the present bunch of ISPs will have gone, in the same way that happened when the market moved from dialup to ADSL.

For now I'm staying with them, although as I said, I wouldn't recommend anyone to join. My only problems are slight niggles, far less than the problems I had with BT, and I can put up with that for the advantages I have, such as a fast connection

In reply to:

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Have you every tried talking to someone at PlusNet, I have and so far with 3 weeks of trying have never managed it.

---

Interesting that you mention that one, because I raised a ticket to Billing a couple of days ago and had a satisfactory response within 2 hours.

"that PlusNet even now has some good things going for it. I stopped reading this forum shortly after the PlusNet reps were pulled out, because to me nothing constructive was being said."
All isp's have something going for them(even tiscalli)
What was being said by plusnet reps before they were pulled out that was constructive?
They have said a lot of constructive statements but they can't back them up with actions
"It is a great pity that only Tiscalli agreed to sell bandwidth to PlusNet."
Or was the only wholesale supplier who would sell plusnet bandwidth for a price they excepted Tiscalli or do wholesale suppliers turn away business for no apparent reason.
"IMHO PlusNet has to find a new marketing model if it is to survive."
IMHO Plusnet has to find a new business model if it is to survive(marketing is another word for spin)

"Interesting that you mention that one, because I raised a ticket to Billing a couple of days ago and had a satisfactory response within 2 hours. "

have you read the plusnet community forums at all, as from what i can see you are the only one to get an answer that quick.

perhaps you should spend your time helping people and telling them how to get a reply as fast as that instead of inciting an arguement on here. Since Plusnet have left for pastures new the conversation on here has fairly good, topical and without bickering.

I am glad that you are happy with their level of service, however if i was still a customer i would be most disappointed. But thats the opinion of just 2 people in the whole of the UK

I raised a ticket on

Your original question 7:06pm, Tuesday 1st August 2006
CSC Agent 7:21am, Saturday 12th August 2006
Your comment 10:38am, Saturday 12th August 2006
Your comment 12:38am, Thursday 17th August 2006
Your comment 12:31pm, Friday 18th August 2006
Your comment 7:12pm, Saturday 19th August 2006
Your comment 4:03pm, Sunday 20th August 2006

And as you can see still awaiting a response.

Hence the phone calls and still nothing.

Actually I almost fainted with shock when the ticket was returned so quickly.
The normal time is over a day, but at least they are far more honest with their timing, even though it is still often out by a day or so.

I've noticed that anyone PlusNet customer who posts here, admits they are a customer, and doesn't just slag them off is attacked, or feels that they are being attacked.

So I'll follow the PlusNet reps to the PlusNet forums, where people don't attack each other. I haven't posted on here for some time because the attacks were getting to be either annoying or just plain boring. I do spend my time on the PlusNet forums, where the reps do help customers if they are able to. But the fact is that some things are out of their hands, such as fixing the disaster that is Tiscalli LLU.

This forum has become like certain Usenet forums full of trolls as far as I can see from my recent browsing. But at least there are plenty of other forums here that are reasonable, and they are the ones I read. In fact I think I'll remove my notification of PlusNet forum posts, in case I'm tempted to come back.

If any customers want to have problems solved, the best forum is PUG. If anyone is a possible customer or ex customer, the dial-up forum is available for their use. Unfortunately nobody is permitted to have a good word to say about PlusNet, which still has a large number of customers.

Plusnet followed the wrong business model. Hopefully, with a more discerning customer base, having shed the ones who chase the maximum bandwidth for the minimum cost, it will get back to what it once was, the best ISP around.
It's not there yet, has a very long way to go if it survives, but I've looked at the alternatives and every one of them has something that stops me moving. The only alternative I'd consider right now is cable, which is pointless as there is never likely to be cable in my road. But cable has one very big problem. Support that is probably the worst in the business.

Hi Anna

noone is attacking you and i take on board what you say, however there are 2 sides to every story

"If any customers want to have problems solved, the best forum is PUG. If anyone is a possible customer or ex customer, the dial-up forum is available for their use. Unfortunately nobody is permitted to have a good word to say about PlusNet, which still has a large number of customers. "

dont you think that is a shame, that you cant get help on their own forums or on here, one of the largest in the UK, and that you have to register and attend PUG forums?

Yes Plusnet, have made mistakes, and yes they are trying to put things right again, but people are entitled to praise, or to criticise, thats life.

Edited by soundsystem (Sun 20-Aug-06 21:52:05)

What amuses me is she agrees PN have made cockups, but thinks only customers should tell them so

well i was a customer and i have said it before and i will say it again, they have had more than

In reply to:

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Hopefully, with a more discerning customer base, having shed the ones who chase the maximum bandwidth for the minimum cost, it will get back to what it once was, the best ISP around.

---

Why would Plusnet be more attractive to discerning consumers going forward?

It seems to me that the most obvious feature of Plusnet, is that their primary residential packages- Broadband Plus and Premier- are amongst the cheapest against broadly comparable offerings from other providers, and are likely to attract a good number of customers who are swayed more by price than discerning service.

In my opinion, the Plusnet model, of being amongst the cheapest regardless of package choice, has proven unable to sustain the level of network reliability and high quality customer support, that would be attractive to the most discerning consumers.

Plusnet are primarily a budget provider, in my view, and their service more closely reflects that, than the consistently high quality of service of some other providers, who primarily attract discerning consumers who are willing to pay a little more for that quality.

edwards256 wrote..
Have you every tried talking to someone at PlusNet, I have and so far with 3 weeks of trying have never managed it.

Anna replied
Interesting that you mention that one, because I raised a ticket to Billing a couple of days ago and had a satisfactory response within 2 hours.

The question was. Have you every tried TALKING to someone at PlusNet
Did you speak to someone in billing?

Oh, Betty!

"Yes Plusnet, have made mistakes, and yes they are trying to put things right again"

INHO they are more trying to convince us that they are trying to put things right and that's a bit different from doing it. Would not one of the first things be to use their own forums again? They are just blessed with IW using the word "excited, exciting over and over again. Me thinks he is trying to convince himslef that he is excited as much as the customers.

Hi Rogn

i cant agree more, i know IW has plans for the PUG forums, however what i dont understand, for now, why not use their own forums and sort the peeps out on there first. At the end of the day the customer has gone to their forums to

1) Praise them

2) Slate them

3) Ask a question as to why their connection is poor etc.

Surely it would make sense to box everyone off on there and then rollout a larger forum exercise. I know they have plans, but imho i would start at home frst

At great risk of bringing the disbelievers out of the woodwork I posted this on the Plusnet forums on 17 Aug 2006

the original of which can be found tagged onto some other comments at http://portal.plus.net/central/forums/viewtopic.php?t=47004&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

interesting sideline:at approx 0830 my wife who shares my connection phoned me at work to tell me the connection was down I got home at 1315hrs to find the connection was still down so phoned support to find out what was going on....... made myself comfortable for a long wait and was answered with an explaination of this mornings problem within 5 minutes which was a suprise.Well done Plusnet in this instance.

edwards256, I haven't needed to talk to anyone at PlusNet for at least 18 months, Back then you were answered within a minute or two, and got good support on all questions and problems, even the technical ones.

If you have a fault, the SMS service is now operating, and somebody should test you if you leave a message. The phone system is due to be changed very soon, prompted by customer feedback.

If I can use the portal I will do rather than the phone, but it's only in the last few months that I've used it. Before that the last time was in 2004.

If you want to find out what is going on, use the portal pages, the internal forums, and especially the PUG.

Ptrobably another bit of smoke and mirrors
1. Will make PUG members feel better and be more pliable.
2. Is not used as much as their own forums so that if they offer refunds etc then fewer customers will know about it.
3. I would have thought PUG might have plans, not IW, just shows that they are in PN's pocket for me.

Obviously I hadn't tried any of them, hmm, oh yes I hadm the telepohne was the only option where I couldn't be ignored.

Wrong again, everytime through an automated system and then either use the secure portal or disconnected.

See my other thread for how long my question has been going on for.

I can admit that when I started with PlusNet the ticket system and customer service was a lot better, but then it went downhill and quickly at that. If they still worked in the old way, I wouldn't have migrated or took court action against them.

The Premier package is about

I've noticed that anyone PlusNet customer who posts here, admits they are a customer, and doesn't just slag them off is attacked, or feels that they are being attacked.
-----
I agree that would be shocking but I haven't seen it happening. Could you post links to a couple of examples?
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This forum has become like certain Usenet forums full of trolls as far as I can see from my recent browsing.
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It is certainly full of (often constructive) criticism - but that's PlusNet's responsibility. Criticism isn't the same as trolling, otherwise you would be guilty of trolling yourself when you said: "It seems as though Plus have got it wrong again, and that Tiscalli retail is beginning to look attractive."
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I think I'll remove my notification of PlusNet forum posts, in case I'm tempted to come back.
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Hopefully you will change your mind about that. Prospective new PlusNet customers who come here would appreciate your balanced viewpoint, especially as the PlusNet reps have run away. But I think you would have to accept that this isn't a dedicated PlusNet support forum, unlike the other places. General PlusNet discussions take place here, sometimes between disenchanted customers or ex-customers. That's life.
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If any customers want to have problems solved, the best forum is PUG.
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It seems strange to me that the official community support forum on the PlusNet portal isn't the best place to get problems solved. It certainly is the most logical place. But it is true that anyone with a specific CS issue to raise would be better off in the forums where PlusNet staff sometimes post.
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Unfortunately nobody is permitted to have a good word to say about PlusNet.
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That's simply not true. But there do seem to be growing numbers of complaints in all the PlusNet forums - even those where disenchanted ex-customers are excluded.

Simon

I'll reply to one part of this post, as it is relevant to customers who want help.

In reply to:

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If any customers want to have problems solved, the best forum is PUG.
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It seems strange to me that the official community support forum on the PlusNet portal isn't the best place to get problems solved. It certainly is the most logical place. But it is true that anyone with a specific CS issue to raise would be better off in the forums where PlusNet staff sometimes post.[.quote]

The official PlusNet forums are the logical place to post.
There are still plenty of complaints, but I see the company actually doing something to solve them.
CS agents can't be everywhere and if they're reading and posting on forums they're not answering tickets or the phone. So the fewer places to go if you want to bring a long-standing problem to the attention of the experienced CS people, the more chance of your problem being seen and answered.

But the official forums is where customers help other customers. Post a technical problem there, one that somebody with the knowledge may be able to sort without access to CS equipment, and you'll probably have several people doing their best to help.

Of course LLU is another story. PlusNet has problems with the supplier and if a fault is caused by Tiscalli LLU there is nothing that can be done other than pushing Tiscalli. Tiscalli won't even agree to lower SNR profiles, although 12 dB is too high for many, and Tiscalli won't remove interleaving. They also take far too long to even look at fault reports and have been known to lose them.

That's why most people opted out, and why PlusNet puts everyone back on IPStream at their own expense if they either opted out and were moved anyway, or if they've had a long time with no connection.

It's nothing to do with ex-customers. If you walk you've turned your back on that company.
Every ISP has a large number of unhappy ex-customers and I'm an unhappy ex-customer of some of them. But I've never posted on their forums saying how useless/terrible/incompetent they are.

This is also the only forum I see that is full of ex-customers and non-customers with hardly any present customers.

PlusNet could become the best ISP on the planet and the disgruntled ex-customers would still be talking as though the situation when they left was still going on.

If I started posting in the BT forum, say, complaining about all the problems I'd had with BT, which led me to leave, what point would there be in that?
BT giving at least three people the same email address was just one minor complaint and it was impossible to resolve. This was particularly bad as the other two identical addresses were businesses and orders went astray. I became very tired of forwarding business mail to these people on a regular basis.

In fact I'd say that what BT did was illegal.

So why don't the ex-customers feel that they have a mission to warn everyone away from PlusNet? Because that is the impression I get, reading this board. I do see a few posts from PlusNet customers, and they are far more positive than the negative ex-customer postings.

An example of what annoys me, people rubbing their hands in glee because a few certificates were out of date. Those things happen sometimes to just about everyone and are easily corrected, as that one was. So why post it as though it's a good thing, same as posting never-ending streams of share prices...providing the value is dropping.. never posting any increase. That is negativity at the very least, and I could call it more than that..

<Quote>

There are still plenty of complaints, but I see the company actually doing something to solve them.
CS agents can't be everywhere and if they're reading and posting on forums they're not answering tickets or the phone.

</Quote>

I think that you'll find that the likes of James Bailey are actually paid to answer questions on these such forums under the fact that they are marketing based people and not CSC staff members.

What they do on the forums does not have any effect on the phones not being answered, this has been outlined and agreed by James in the past.

It has been confirmed by Plus.net that the fact that even the Plus.net COO is having to "put in a couple of hours" of support himself tells you how deep seated the problems at Plus.net are.

Edited by caesar_salad (Mon 21-Aug-06 09:27:25)

"But the official forums is where customers help other customers. Post a technical problem there, one that somebody with the knowledge may be able to sort without access to CS equipment, and you'll probably have several people doing their best to help. "

Its nice to know the distinction, can you tell me where it says that on either of those forums, so that customers do not go to the wong place?

Nice of other customers to "do their best". Pity that the technical people at PN can never find the time to do though.

The forums at PUG have areas where only customers can post, the portal forums are almost exclusively for customers to post, the "guest forum" is for basic questions about Pn others are blocked or locked (have no issues with that). So how many forums exclusively to PN customers do you want?

And if PN want more I guess if they offered that 3million they have to ADSL guide they could own and moderate this forum in the same sharp shooting from the hip way they do their other two.

Don't you also feel you have a duty to warn unsuspecting customers that BT operate, in your words, "illegally" ? If you know that situation I think you do, IMHO. But if all the issues have now changed and you are simply harping back, then that does not help a lot, but if you were talking about issues that were still current or new current issues and had some worthwhile knowledge of the legal position, that is valid comment.

If you read these forums, very few posts, if any, refer to past issues unless those issues are still current and some of the ex-customers on here have the detailed information about those situations and they have detailed information about newer situations. Now I think those people have a duty to new and present customers to share that.

What would be a trolling position is if they simply trolled other ISP's that they have no connection with (and never had), which is what you seem to want to be done. In other words you are encouring people on here to become trolls. But that perhaps gets them out of PN's hair, allows customers to continue in the dark about issues where PN is being lesss than open and IMHO honest about issues like selling non-products, (a court case just won on that ols potato), which is where you seem to want to put the long suffering PN customers.

Finanly, if they get some of the serious outstanding items sorted, appologise for their continuing harrassment of pr100, you might get your wish

1. If you want to stop non/ex-customers from posting here - I believe you will fail

2. The staff from PN who reply or post on any forum are from the marketing team and not technical support. Their role is damage limitation. If people could get through to support and get a proper resolution in the first instance then posts for help would be rare and not the norm. If you look at the posts asking for help they usually refer to an open ticket that hasn't been answered for over 3-4 days in most cases hence technical support is failing to resolve the issue or even deal with them..

3. I am sure some people get replied to fairly swiftly but it is not the norm and hence the concern and even outrage from existing customers.

4. You chose not to post on the BT forum, that was your choice and people are individuals and will not copy your behaviour all the time. However you are intent on imposing your wishes on everyone else when instead you should be accepting that different people will react differently. You question the motivation of those that still post here but the same could be asked of you and why you don't post on the BT forum and make others aware of the problem but people don't do this because they know it is a choice you made and respect it. Can you do the same?

5. This is a free country and people can do as they please as long as they abide by the rules, the pertinent rules in this case being those of ADSG forum posting rules.

6. The only people who have started arguments here over the last month are existing customers claiming vendettas and personal attacks. Not one has been able to show this to be the case even when asked for proof. If anything I suggest you read the PN portal and tell us that people aren't angry or even getting personal against PN.

7. Criticisms, observations and discussion of a negative nature are not personal attacks or vendettas. If a company keeps making errors or creating blunders you can hardly blame the observer and writer for stating the obvious but that is what you are doing.

8. The reason the PN fora are as busy as they are compared to others is because of the state of play. I don't have first hand knowledge of other companies but it seems that PN's customers have had and are having major difficulties in relation to service and support from their ISP and hence it is natural for more negative posts that reflect that.

9 Your claim that 90% of existing customers are happy and satisfied - can you actually prove that?

10. I am sure that there are some customers who have had no problems, no connection issues etc. with PN and I am happy for them. I don't expect them to ask for a MAC code and leave since they have no reason to.

11. Either you or someone else mentioned about Eclipse and how we should go help them with their LLU problems but I have no relationship to Eclipse and hence I won't post in that forum. I had two people contact me in relation to the legal aspect to the contract with Eclipse and I am indeed helping them but via PM.

Edited by rsharma (Mon 21-Aug-06 12:37:37)

The official PlusNet forums are the logical place to post.
There are still plenty of complaints, but I see the company actually doing something to solve them.
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As was the case here, the PN reps pick off the ticket-type complaints and do something about them. That's good PR rather than good CS because up to 95% of complainants never find their way to the forums.
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CS agents can't be everywhere and if they're reading and posting on forums they're not answering tickets or the phone.
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Not so. The reps who post in the forums are not the same agents who man the phone lines or respond to tickets.
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But the official forums is where customers help other customers. Post a technical problem there, one that somebody with the knowledge may be able to sort without access to CS equipment, and you'll probably have several people doing their best to help.
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The same is true of the unofficial forums, including this one. But it still seems illogical to me that PlusNet are telling customers to take their questions out of the official portal forum (which they own and manage) and post instead on the PUG forum which allegedly is neither owned nor managed by PlusNet.
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Of course LLU is another story. PlusNet has problems with the supplier and if a fault is caused by Tiscalli LLU there is nothing that can be done other than pushing Tiscalli.
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PlusNet have admitted that they were responsible for some of the LLU mistakes. And of course there is plenty that PlusNet can do to resolve and/or mitigate these problems -- including offering customers subscription refunds which step has belatedly been taken. And stopping the LLU migrations which has also finally happened. They should also have notified all LLU victims that they could encounter serious service problems and they should have kept to their word about giving advance notification and opt-outs to all those customers. So, despite what you say, most of the LLU mess is PlusNet's own doing.
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That's why most people opted out, and why PlusNet puts everyone back on IPStream at their own expense if they either opted out and were moved anyway, or if they've had a long time with no connection.
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Is it a fact that most people opted out? I would be grateful to see that data. My impression was that while most of the forum regulars may have opted out, the great majority of folk (95%) who don't visit the forums were not given any notice of the opt-out facility, despite PlusNet's promise to email them all in advance. And when they now complain that they weren't given the promised opt-out option and ask to be put back on IPStream, PlusNet are not helping them unless they are experiencing serious downtime. The inescapable conclusion is that PlusNet did not want people to opt out because it was profitable for PlusNet to migrate as many as possible to Tiscali LLU.

No doubt both Tiscali Wholesale and BTw have contributed to the LLU problems but only PlusNet are responsible for them to customers. No customer should be putting up with an unsatisfactory LLU experience on the false understanding that PlusNet aren't responsible for it.

Thankfully, it looks as though Ofcom have reacted to the complaints of PlusNet (and other ISP) customers and are now proposing regulations which will put a stop to PlusNet's game.

Simon

The official PlusNet forums are the logical place to post.
There are still plenty of complaints, but I see the company actually doing something to solve them.
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As was the case here, the PN reps pick off the ticket-type complaints and do something about them. That's good PR rather than good CS because up to 95% of complainants never find their way to the forums.

If 95% of complainants never find their way to forums, then why do you think this is the best place to conduct your anti plusnet campaign?? Surely there would be better avenues for you to follow in order to take plusnet to task?