BT Push Out All the Dates Again

BT have pushed out all the dates yet again. Allthose that had a date of September have now been puched back to September(Thats the majority of them. THose with a date of Decvcember have been puched out to March.

They have alrease relesed the names of a 193 new exchanges that are scheduled to get FTTC sometime

ALL THOSE - which you contradict by saying MAJORITY.

Which is it?

Better to be on the list, rather than have no idea if you are getting a USC satellite or FTTC.

"Allthose".
"that had a date of September have now been puched pushed back to September".

He might mean the majority of those that have dates.

"Some dates have been pushed back" perhaps? NSS...

ALL. It is preety clear. Those that had already been enabled would not have a Spetember date as they would have gone from the list

In that sense yes, those left on the list would have got pushed back.

But your post gives the impression to the passing reader, that Openreach failed to enable any of the exchanges it had plans to enable by end of September.

The information is far from perfect, but it is still better than no information. Do keep pushing for better levels of information.

You appear to be suggesting that no more enablements will be done in September. Are they taking the next week off?

The reality at current rates of progress is that most of those that BT give a date of December for will not be enabled by December at best they might do between 40% & 50% of them. This means the rest will be pushed out to June. This in turn will push out the March ones to September. The March list is quite short so look realistic to complete in that Quarter

BT have very little chance of doing any of the future Exchanges in 2013 meaning about 80% will go out to 2014

Typically they release a few exchanges on a weekly basis. THey may or may not realese a few more before month end. Personally I think it is unlikely as they released a few yesturday

I presume you listen to a lot of Crystal Castles in a dark room

(meant in jest)

What a joke BT is becomimg. Wonder what their excuses are this time. They are taking on more and more contracts to supply FTTC and yet they can not complete what they have already started.
My new FTTC Cab has been installed now for 2 months complete with power supply and yet has been moved back from September to December.
I was told by a BT engineer that the exchange work had been completed some time ago.
Whats the point of releasing the roll out of new exchanges now.

They seem to announce them in weekly batches. Best place I've seen is the Openreach twitter feed. 5 exchanges yesterday, 24 last week (though it covered 2 weeks).

Those dates are based on the actual progrees BT is making which is actually slowing down further. THe majority of exchanhges they had planned to enable in September were not enabled and the long term trend is that they are falling further behind as are BDUK. THe likelyhood of the government target being hit is now remote

Whats the point of releasing the roll out of new exchanges now.

Err, because there are thousands of people working on the rollout, in a highly parallel fashion?

Having a contractor sitting twiddling his thumbs in Edinburgh isn't going to make a rollout in Worthing go any faster or slower.

It's funny how BT become a joke to someone when it's *their* cabinet that stalls - regardless of the fact that the people involved then move on to install somewhere else while the foul-ups get sorted out.

The national roll-out isn't just about managing the planned rollout, and getting all the civil & electrical engineering work to the right place at the right time. It is also about managing the numerous foul-ups that occur on the way - which will be numerous.

I'm not saying they're perfect - and they don't help themselves with the way this quarterly delay makes them appear. But there are usually reasons behind the individual delays.

Ok, But what is the point of announcing new exchanges, better to complete and try to catch up with what they have already started

Because the rollout is ongoing, no point in stopping to catch up to a plan. Better to keep going and change the plan.

In reply to a post by aavid60:

Ok, But what is the point of announcing new exchanges, better to complete and try to catch up with what they have already started

Because BT think that they can get more revenue by continuing the roll-out to further exchanges?

Remember - this is a commercial venture funded by OpenReach. Nobody is forcing BT OR to do any of this work, they can plan it how they want, no government money is being invested so we cannot, really, complain.

Would you really prefer that they made no further plans for further exchanges until all the ones "delayed" were "caught up" - I would hope not.

Whether it should be done this way is another matter of course.

They are though not individual delays but mass delays. Most of the echanges that wer suppossed to go live in September (Probably already the 3rd push back) are now out to December and the December ones to March. Strangly the 2013 future exchanges have staid put but with not a hop in hell of BT achieving that

Bassically BT come up with a list of exxhanges put a random date against them and then push them out every 3 months

Yes by allmeans announce them but don't put some totaaly unrelasttic date against them. These exchanges will not be enabled in 2013. That pure fiction by BT

They are not change the plan though they just just change to another random date

If you work like that you are likly to go bankrupt. The work that has been carried out by contractors needs to be paid. By not completing work that has been started will not make then any money.
At the moment it would appear that they look like idiots and could not manage a you know what -----------------------

BT use a random Project Management. Youcome up with a list of exchanges and then just put a date 3 months out for them to be enabled. They then enable a few of the equanges each quarter and push the rest out another 3 months. You contuinue the same process each quarter.

In the real world of course you would expect about 98% to be completed to the published times scales with only a few pushed out due to major unexpected issues but BT are not in the real world. In the real world a Project manager that kept doing what BT do would be fired.

I think we can expect some of the newly announced exchanges to be live in 2013 but some of the existing planned ones not to be.

Some of the newly announced exchanges will be small, in areas of the country that are reasonably well advanced with the plans.

BT have really got themselves into a corner by making dates available and then pushing them out by three months at a time rather than changing the dates to more or less fit their current plans which, we would hope, are more detailed and more accurate than the dates on the BTW number checker which certainly isnt winning BT any friends.

Come on then pretty infographic time?

Too often people moan about the delays, but result is it actually means the 3 cabinets that are in their area

I dont think so. BT are prertty much working through the list by the phases and just pusing everything out a quarter when they miss it. It is very unlikely any of the new 2013 exchanges will go live in 2013at best a few might golive in Q4 2013

So lets ask our visitors what they would prefer, and put that to Openreach, rather than just the opinion of two or three of us

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

In the real world a Project manager that kept doing what BT do would be fired.

And if BT sacked their project managers would we know?

Without sight of their plans and, crucially, their cost model we cannot how they are performing against them.

If they are running within budget for the work that has been done I am sure the senior management will be reasonably happy.

Project managers have both planned dates and costs to meet. It is no use delivering to plan if you are way over budget.

This is a roll-out funded by BT OR as a commecrcial venture. We have no say.

Most people prefer realistic date estimates rather than fiction.

If you have a proper project plan with timescales it is not unreasable to expect 90% plus exchanges to ne enabled within that timesacale the fact that BT are not indicates it is not a plan at all but just a list of exchanges which they attach a date to 3 months in the future knowing that in most cases they will not met that date
and when they mis it push them out 3 months and then another 3 months

Basically theyare working throughthe list of excchanges in Phase order but the dates are pretty meaningless

Project Managers are in the real world expected to meed project dates and yes they also have to deliver to budgets and in most cases slipping dates pushes up costs as well as upsetting your customers

In reply to a post by aavid60:

If you work like that you are likly to go bankrupt. The work that has been carried out by contractors needs to be paid. By not completing work that has been started will not make then any money.
At the moment it would appear that they look like idiots and could not manage a you know what -----------------------

You fail in the assumption that a "single contractor" can do all the work in order for a cabinet to be enabled - whereas the reality is there are teams for blowing fibre, teams for installing the cabinet, teams for linstalling the cards in the cabinets, teams for linking the cab back at the exchange, etc. Once a team has completed its work, it moves to the next job and the cabinet waits for the next team.

In any plan unless everything is on time, either dates get moved or the project gets de-scoped. In this case, the dates have moved. Perhaps you would prefer the project to be de-scoped?

Of course things move around but the job of a prpojecct manage is to manage it and keepthe project on time and on budget. You cannot use those excuse to continually mis the targets. Many exchanges have gone back 12 months not one or two

To all those that shout about dates moving and rubbish, why dont you move to a town that does not have a date and then you wont have to stress out at dates being pushed back.
I have gone from September 30th to sometime in December and i dont care.
All i care about is that i will get it at some point.
No one wants to hear yur rants, Just move on and get on with your life

Some of us would like a decent connection speed and would like a more reliable broadband conection. it is not a case (I will will get some time in the future).
If you do not like what you are reading then at least you have the off button

You are referring to a perfect world where everything is on time and on budget. In reality, those two constraints are mutually exclusive especially where there are many unknown factors such as planning permission, contractor availability, 3rd party issues. In the real world, plans change. In this case, the dates have been moved out.

So what?

. . . . and on a brighter note
Bracknell exchange WAS due for Dec 2012. It's now accepting orders - not for many cabs, but it's coming along OK.

The problem is, most people will stop monitoring and contributing once their FTTC is connected, whereas the unhappy ones stay on and vent their frustrations. Otherwise, I think the discussion would be more balanced.

I think the publishing of target 'hoped for' dates is OK, as long as we can all recognise that that's what they are.
BT OR have no motive for delay, but they don't have control over all aspects (planning, electrical connections etc.) and they can never know about blockages in the ducting until they try to lay the fibre.

I know it's very frustrating (I'm still waiting after an initial expected date of Dec 2010), but they can't do it all at once. We just have to accept that we're all in a queue, and it's one that we have no way of jumping.

Do we know when exchanges get put into their rollout plans?
The OR Superfast Fibre Broadband checker shows an exchange near me as "Not currently in rollout plans" but our Streetworks Section (I work for a highway authority) has received notices and plans showing proposed street cabinets for an area served by that exchange which supposedly is not in the rollout.

Exchanges, as a whole, get put into the plans at irregular intervals - perhaps 3 or 4 times a year - when BT announce a new batch.

This week, they added 193. Back in June it was 98 exchanges, 73 in March and 114 last September.

Each batch then becomes a new "phase", but it seems that the installation doesn't go in the order of the phases. I recall that some of those announced a year ago were installed immediately, ahead of many exchanges already on the list, while some of them went onto the 2013 list and still haven't been touched.

Then, even when an exchange goes live, some of its cabinets get delayed while (as we know) some never get done.

The latest batch came with the statement "We have now announced the bulk of the exchanges we will be deploying fibre to under our own steam but we are keen to go even further with the help of BDUK [Broadband Delivery UK] funding"

Some areas are served by neighbouring exchanges, so might get missed from the exchange level announcements.

Or you are in an area where BT has the BDUK contract, and the planning is starting to get underway, believe this may be slowly starting, but not in an overtly public manner.

While Openreach have not done all those that were planned for Sep 2012 it is not as Black as you are painting. The twitter list misses some exchanges , Llandaff doesn't show on twitter but is in the list for accepting orders as are others.

I have kept spreadsheets from various dates and the reality is on 27/06/2012 Openreach has 171 exchanges planned for Sep 2012 ( none for June). 153 for Dec 2012.

By 02/08/12 they had enabled 19.
By 03/09/12 a further 29
by today 25/09/12 a further 63
Total 111, 98 show on the original 'coming soon' list as Sep 2012 and 11 show as Dec 2012 and 2 were not on the list at all!

so 73 of the Sep 2012 were not completed to date, but 13 are ahead of the list.
So 58% competed as of today but I would count these again next monday to get the accurate count. Also 7% of Dec are already complete in advance so someone should be happy somewhere!

I am surprised with all the rain that they have got that far and expect some more by next monday.

Thanks, thinking about it, it may be the latter BDUK/Welsh Government funding maybe. I am told by our Streetworks chaps that BT have fixed several meetings with them to discuss works relating to digging up roads for 'bringing in fibre ducts' to some parts of the Island (Anglesey).

So, my exchange was announced as enabled on the openreach twitter, yet the date was moved from september>december on the linecheckers.

I'm confused right now. ( Phoned BT and ofc, indian call center - perhaps an indian in a uk call center, who told me to check on openreach.com - so helpful ).

And of course, the openreach map shows my exchange as accepting orders.

sigh.

Edited by deleted (Tue 25-Sep-12 17:48:11)

BT and the Government have made a commitment to a date. If it is clear that they are fulying badly behind schedule then it is right that this issue is raised. THe same issue also applies with BDUK

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

ALL THOSE - which you contradict by saying MAJORITY.

Which is it?

Better to be on the list, rather than have no idea if you are getting a USC satellite or FTTC.

Well the list is meaningless in that it's subject to change. Cabinets can be added, removed and delayed as Openreach see fit.

In my own area my last two addresses are both 2 years late, one in a conservation area which received planning permission over a year ago, another not in a conservation area and Openreach make excuses which are simply not true as to why it hasn't been built.

I'm puzzled by this post, Andrew, the lack of information from Openreach and the indifference to the timescales they set out is unacceptable. Why the criticism of the poster and the very Openreach-like attitude that people should be grateful they're on the far from fixed list at all?

For Openreach to simply provide a new date every 3 months 7 or 8 times with the disclaimer that things are provisional isn't acceptable however you look at it.

End 2010
July 2011
Dec 2011
Jun 2012
Sep 2012
Dec 2012


Will almost certainly get pushed out further, since they've not done any of the fibrework between cabinets, or with my cab even installed it yet.

Edited by arfster (Tue 25-Sep-12 18:58:48)

In reply to a post by Gryffes:

So, my exchange was announced as enabled on the openreach twitter, yet the date was moved from september>december on the linecheckers.

I'm confused right now. ( Phoned BT and ofc, indian call center - perhaps an indian in a uk call center, who told me to check on openreach.com - so helpful ).

And of course, the openreach map shows my exchange as accepting orders.

sigh.

same here

In reply to a post by Gryffes:

So, my exchange was announced as enabled on the openreach twitter, yet the date was moved from september>december on the linecheckers.

I guess that means the exchange work is done, and some cabinets are live ...... but just not yours yet.

sigh....

there is light at then end of the tunnel. Just had mine installed today.

Dont forget the power connectivity that is not done by Openreach

Possible delays while getting clearance for roadworks etc

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

The latest batch came with the statement "We have now announced the bulk of the exchanges we will be deploying fibre to under our own steam but we are keen to go even further with the help of BDUK [Broadband Delivery UK] funding"

It strikes me that if the above is true then in some areas BT's fibre 'rollout' is going to be very threadbare indeed. When I put my postcode in to the Openreach site it shows 21 exchanges in this area: 2 have dates for fibre (one has already had its date pushed back), 3 have a vague 'end of 2013' timescale, and the remaining 16 get nothing.

Overall, Openreach have only ever committed to make FTTx available to 66% of UK homes by end of 2014, so the vast majority of exchanges wont be covered by the commercial deployment.

Edited by deleted (Tue 25-Sep-12 20:23:40)

The (BT self-funded) rollout amounts to 66% of population, but this is the densest part of the population on the biggest exchanges. So when you just look at the exchange count alone, it does indeed look threadbare.

Even when BDUK-funding is added (assuming it all goes to BT), so that coverage reaches 90% of the UK population, it probably still only hits 40% of the exchanges!

Source: Ofcom's market definitions:

Market 3: 1,540 exchanges, covering 77.6% of UK premises
Market 2: 660 exchanges, covering 10.0%
Market 1: 3,389 exchanges, covering 11.7%

If BDUK funding converts all of the market 3 and market 2 exchanges, we'd hit 88% population coverage, but only 39% exchange coverage (2,200 out of 5,589)

That's pretty dismal for the remainder then .

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

If BDUK funding converts all of the market 3 and market 2 exchanges, we'd hit 88% population coverage

Does that assume that every cabinet on those exchanges is enabled?

Otherwise the real %-age population coverage is likely to be somewhat lower.

Openreach does not need to enable every exchange for FTTC, so you will find many small exchange's will likely be covered in the BDUK projects and the fibre will go back to the larger exchange nearby.

Eventually most of the smaller exchanges will be shut down and sold off as they will no longer be needed.

Also counting the current number of exchanges via the 3 rollout plan lists

1205 exchanges live
247 Coming Soon
335 Future exchanges

Total:1787 exchanges so far in the rollout including the recent ones announced.

Edited by deleted (Tue 25-Sep-12 23:08:58)

In reply to a post by billford:

Does that assume that every cabinet on those exchanges is enabled?

Otherwise the real %-age population coverage is likely to be somewhat lower.

Yes - That "assumption" of using just the market 2 and 3 exchanges to make 88% would require every cabinet to be converted *and* that everyone on those cabinets would be within the (approx) 1500-2000 metre range to get the numbers to add up.

But the BDUK target is 90%, so if we assume that not everyone on a market 2/3 cabinet is capable of being covered, then *some* market 1 coverage must be happening too.

My personal assumption, though, is that getting to the 90% coverage is going to require some additional technology tactics on top of the existing one. I'm expecting BT to need to deploy smaller FTTC cabinets, further out in the network. This would be needed for people with small cabinets covering few premises. It may also be needed further out in the network than the existing cabinets, so as to reduce the D-side length.

Even with this, we need a solution for those with exchange-direct lines too.

If BT are going to continue with the existing size of FTTC cabinets, existing limitations (only putting FTTC cabinets where there are existing PCPs, and only allowing VDSL2 from a cabinet), then a lot of market 1 exchanges will need doing too.

That's one reason to look at the technology that will be chosen for Surrey. As this county is going for near-on 100% SFBB, it'll be interesting to see what adaptations are made to the existing tactics.

You're right that BT don't need to actually enable the exchange in the building as it exists right now.

However, as far as the consumers are concerned, their "exchange is enabled" as soon as the service is available within the exchange area. Even if things are wired differently behind the scenes, I think it is fair to count the exchanges as consumers see them.

I do agree that the smaller ones will be shut down gradually, as fibre backhaul makes the distances irrelevant, and can allow for concentration to happen in the joint boxes under our feet. In fact, ADSL probably gave them a longer lease of life, with the requirement of housing equipment physically close to the consumer.

Good point on counting the exchanges in the existing rollout though... If BT are right, and that is the bulk of their 67% coverage, then we're already up to 250 exchanges beyond "just" market 3 - which itself covers 77% population.

I reckon that means that when we hit that 67% target, BT will have left around 15% uncovered in those 1787 exchanges. And that suggests that around 2/3 of BDUK money will go to infill cabinets, and 1/3 to new exchanges.

Other posters have looked deeper into areas and finding that it is a mixture of positive and negative. Have never denied that Openreach is not pushing back some dates.

Was really asking a poster who has a tendency to post with little actual information to back up comments to provide some information, even if just the 3 or 4 exchanges in their own area.

Current poll running will add some weight to the pestering I do of Openreach on cabinet info. Still does not stop devils advocate posts at times.
Plenty of other projects have had dates slip or never announced dates. Where do I start?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Plenty of other projects have had dates slip or never announced dates. Where do I start?

That is an irresistible question!

How about your own task list?

My take on this ,is that BT will show an exchange as "accepting orders" when only 1 FTTC cab is live ,
This from a customer view point is wrong, as it makes it look as if Openreach have enabled all FTTC cabs , then there is the lack of information in the public domain inc Isp's , As to which FTTC cabs will go live and when ,

Not that I'm that bothered about FTTC but i know people who are,

The roll out dates mean very little ,

Edited by tommy45 (Wed 26-Sep-12 03:18:19)

It was often said, a year ago, that BT would set the exchange live when a minimum of 10 cabinets were ready (and, of course, the exchange itself was done).

I've no idea if this was actually true back then, nor if it remains the case.

I do agree that there ends up a large grey area, after an exchange is announced, when the "missing" cabinets get completed. You have no idea whether your cabinet is "just" planned for a few weeks later, has hit some (extended) delays, is planned for another year or two, or will never be done.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

It was often said, a year ago, that BT would set the exchange live when a minimum of 10 cabinets were ready (and, of course, the exchange itself was done).

That seems to be a myth, propagated by people quoting an original uncorroborated source.

A few weeks ago someone who ought to know, it may have been MrSaffron or ADSL24, maybe ANO, said one cabinet was sufficient. WHich makes a lot more sense.

What's the point of waiting until there are 10? What if there are nine, with no cash flow from the five/six-figure sum invested in the exchange and nine? Or eight, or seven, reductio ad absurbum.

This checker:

https://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/main.html

If you use the address (not postcode or phone number) it appears to show you that your cabinet will be upgraded with a tentative date. The dates are a little suspect of course. Mine still says 30th September and I'm hoping that it is true -- the last OpenReach engineer I spoke to said they were still waiting for a part.

I think people will agree that now I am full time with Seb that a lot more has come out of the thinkbroadband door.

Guessing the 10 arose from observation as it was a relatively common figure in the early days, but tracking FTTC cabs on their own would be a full time job.

Current poll is running with the view that if we get a good number I will pester Olivia Garfield to show level of concerns (if that is the result) about lack of cabinet level data.

The more people that answer the poll the better, if we get it over the 2,000 mark then it may be worth trying to push for coverage beyond our own news, and make a louder noise.

True.

What if an exchange area has less than 10 cabs in total ??

BT's information flow is dire.

The checker above says nothing for me.. yet i have a cab right outside my window.

The problem, is that Openreach are not our direct customers, but they have taken it upon themselves to give information to the public.
most of which is suspect for most of the time.

They should either make a better job of it, or not bother imho.

Edited by deleted (Wed 26-Sep-12 13:23:52)

In reply to a post by boxst:

This checker:

https://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/main.html

If you use the address (not postcode or phone number) it appears to show you that your cabinet will be upgraded with a tentative date. The dates are a little suspect of course. Mine still says 30th September and I'm hoping that it is true -- the last OpenReach engineer I spoke to said they were still waiting for a part.

If i input my address results in nothing about FTTC
Post code results in the same generic info 30th sept 12
Telephone number again results in no FTTC info the same output with regards to FTTC with other numbers ect to

The checker in a couple of areas either gives a speed estimate and date for fttc (number input) or says that it is a available there are currently 2 cabs live out of the 20 or so that they installed all have mains power some including the one situated next the the pcp i'm connected to have the the tie cables in situ (pcp>fttc ) as for the actual fibre link back to exchange is unknown it may be in place to some or all cabs it may not , that's the faceless BT group for you

All the Sptember ones that have not already been enabled have had their dates pushed out to December. It looks as if the BT wholsale Web site has not caught up with this yet.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

All the Sptember ones that have not already been enabled have had their dates pushed out to December. It looks as if the BT wholsale Web site has not caught up with this yet.

Pushed back or not the exchange is down as accepting orders , Because there are 2 out of the 20 or so cabs live, Cab dates i think used the same generic info as that on the fttc where &when site m
openreach don't give go live dates for individual fttc cabs ,

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

I think people will agree that now I am full time with Seb that a lot more has come out of the thinkbroadband door.

Where's the News Article ?

Didn't know that, but had indeed noticed things do seem to happening. In particular you seem to respond about tbMeter more rapidly.

I'll mark it down as myth, then

There *is* a good reason to wait until there is a sufficient number of cabinets done - which is that it allows you to perform local-area marketing on Fibre availability without having to turn down 90% of the interested people.

However, we already know the BTOR shoot themselves in the foot every 3 months (with the mass delay of every line), so why would we expect them to make a positive effort on this front?

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

All the Sptember ones that have not already been enabled have had their dates pushed out to December. It looks as if the BT wholsale Web site has not caught up with this yet.

Given that councils are actually involved in this upgrade of the dsl infrastructure i'm not inherently surprised that delays have occurred. Adsl is fair simpler to install in terms of that it just goes into the exchange. Vdsl involves alot more planning and a lot more 3rd parties .

Add in its BT/OR its not surprising the whole experience is a frustrating mess for some. Thats the negative the good thing is that bt is slowly moving to bigger exchanges with the dinky ones in the long term getting the chop.

Perhaps it depends on the council. Certainly where I live I was talking to the chamber of commerce and they were taking every opportunity to push OpenReach, make sure there weren't delays in the planning permission etc...

Not that it stopped the dates going from March until September, but it wasn't through the lack of trying...

They went live in September with a few cabinets and more are being upgraded, there is a constant flurry of OpenReach vans around. They just need to finish my cabinet!

Hah in my area they were trying to claim the council were blocking them from installing anything. Then I pointed out that elsewhere in this same Borough they were currently building, and were receiving planning permissions in conservation areas.

I pointed this out and the local project manager still stuck to the same story.

It's ridiculous.

in same boat, we had June then Sept, now 30th Dec live date (facepalm)

Lots of tasks are not done by BT but that is irrelevent the project should take that into account and include it in the milestones of the project plan and enage with the sub contractors to comit to those datres. You do that before you set your plan dates and time scales. The other favorite of BT is blaming thje power companies but all the power compnies have SLA and their published data shows that in 97% of cases that SLA is met so BT are bull [censored] with this

Edited by deleted (Thu 27-Sep-12 16:59:48)

Planning permisions are not an unknnown. PLanning permission is in any case only required in Conservation areas and a part of the project plan would be to identify those that are in conservation areas and to engage with the local planning department to access whethjer the provional proposals are likely to be acceptable and if so formally submit the plans. All councils have an SLA for planning permision so this is not an unknown.

So you have a committed plan before you have a plan?

Why not make the plan after everything is installed?

Do you have any idea about project plans and milestoneas. You do not just invent your own timescales which is what BT seem to do.

Perhaps the answer is two assume worst case scenario and just give an end date of 2018 for the commercial roll-out.

Do you have any idea about plans?
Have you ever experienced a project that didn't meet the end date?

BT openwound are a law to themselves , There seems to be a lack of commitment to the FTTC project, in the area that i live at least the 2 FTTC cabs that have gone live on the same exchange as me, are would you believe in situated in areas that have VM cable , they will really get a lot of interest there ,not
The amount of scheduled associated street works such as installing ducting unblocking ducting that they failed to even start never mind complete on several occasions, then theres them having to go back to some locations and put the footway back to a safe state as it was before they dug it up,
And the backwards thinking/planning of the FTTC cab rollout they had to get planning permission for only 2 cabs the company they used took ages to actually submit it to the council , and it also took the max amount of time for them to approve, but they could of been installing the other FTTC cabs whilst this was ongoing then maybe the June date may not of slipped to September backwards thinking thats BT openwound planning for ya ,

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Perhaps the answer is two assume worst case scenario and just give an end date of 2018 for the commercial roll-out.

You forget that posting in this thread are several people who either are, have been, or could walk into a job tomorrow Project Managing multi-million pound multi-site projects.

We are clearly not in a position to contradict them.

For example myself. My two largest projects were at two separate single sites, one at just over £1m and the other around £1.5m, over 30 years ago. (I wonder how much that is these days?). Completed on time and to budget.

My comments are obviously going to be regarded as ill-informed by the people criticising Openreach Project Planning.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

Lots of tasks are not done by BT but that is irrelevent the project should take that into account and include it in the milestones of the project plan and enage with the sub contractors to comit to those datres. You do that before you set your plan dates and time scales. The other favorite of BT is blaming thje power companies but all the power compnies have SLA and their published data shows that in 97% of cases that SLA is met so BT are bull [censored] with this

with my DSLAM. i managed to get number for main project manager(carrillion), he confirmed that
DSLAM had power and was certified safe and passed back to openreach,

and it still hasnt had fibre blown through, ironically around 4pm seen like 5 open reach vans parked in asda all out chatting etc, killing time, 10 guys, how much work could be done in an hour?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

For example myself. My two largest projects were at two separate single sites, one at just over £1m and the other around £1.5m, over 30 years ago. (I wonder how much that is these days?). Completed on time and to budget.

Maybe you can answer then, what happens when a project doesn't meet various milestone dates?

You are fundamentally wrong here.

Planning permission is an unknown - because you don't know whether you will get it. This can require changing the plan, multiple times.

Power is an unknown - because you don't know, when you dig up the road, whether it will work in practice. This can require changing the plan (I know - this is what delayed my specific cabinet. Three times. I watched them go off in 3 different directions in the hunt for power - at intervals of at least a month between each)

Fibre provisioning is an unknown - because you don't know, until you try, whether the duct is blocked or not. This can require changing the plan. You don't know, until you try, whether your dig is easy or hard, and whether it can even be accomplished.

Contractors are an unknown - because people make mistakes. They site cabinets in the wrong location, or dig up the wrong thing. People get sick, and don't turn up. Each requires a change in plan.

Sticking to the plan is an unknown - because it requires the weather to co-operate, and workforce to be available. It requires (for example) there to be no emergencies demanding attention elsewhere. For example, I imagine there isn't much cabinet installation going on in York or Newcastle right now.

Changing the plan adds further unknown factors. When any of these streetworks need to be re-planned, there needs to be a notice period (longer on more major roads), and there ought to be co-ordination between roadworks (to make sure they don't cause traffic jams nearby). That helps explain why a "simple" delay is never fixed the next day, and always takes another month. The fines for roadworks taking too long also help push this approach.

What can you do? Simple - make a *reasonable* plan, but expect changes to be needed to a certain percentage of the work. Make sure that the plan has room for re-work, and that the workforce are flexible to turn up anywhere at reasonably short notice, and return to previous sites.

The "now-and-next" operational planners - the one's who decide which team will work on which cabinet over the next few days - have a different need. They want the rollout to be done as efficiently (money-wise) which means they can't have workforce standing idle. If they're all planned in for the next few days, then they can't have excess time built-in "just in case" something goes wrong. The solution is to pack up, go elsewhere tomorrow, and come back a few weeks later. Very little, after all, is critical.

That is called pragmatism. It is what is needed in the real world, which isn't always perfect.

But while being pragmatic with the planning, and the operational work, the marketing department wants to be optimistic with what they are telling the public.

Do you have any idea about plans?
Have you ever experienced a project that didn't meet the end date?

Spot on. Every plan I was ever involved with had to hope that nothing went wrong.

Every plan I had to make was always squeezed (after lots of rework) to be done as fast as possible - or, as the mgmt would prefer, even faster than that. It would always be the absolute optimum way, with no slack whatsoever.

And yet, things would still go wrong, and the plans would have to adapt. They'd use the slack that wasn't there, and so go late.

Always.

The marketing department would moan. But telling the customer would always be the last thing anyone wanted to do.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Perhaps the answer is two assume worst case scenario and just give an end date of 2018 for the commercial roll-out.

I believe that to be totally wrong, this is just one Huge gravy train for contractors, not only should any date given stand but there should be penalty clauses already in place.

so they give a blanket date and run it out as ling as they like?

and hide all the failaments!

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Perhaps the answer is two assume worst case scenario and just give an end date of 2018 for the commercial roll-out.

Which would be commercial suicide from the marketing side. They need everyone to believe it is just around the corner, so they don't just give up and go to Virgin.

At least that's how marketers think. I'm an engineer, and I'd prefer the plain truth... and that appears to be closer to what Openreach is giving us now - if you go via email.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Perhaps the answer is two assume worst case scenario and just give an end date of 2018 for the commercial roll-out.

Which would be commercial suicide from the marketing side. They need everyone to believe it is just around the corner, so they don't just give up and go to Virgin.

At least that's how marketers think. I'm an engineer, and I'd prefer the plain truth... and that appears to be closer to what Openreach is giving us now - if you go via email.

Shame that VM cable isn't available to more people it's foot print is small in comparison to BT 's Maybe if there was better competition Openwound would be inclined to get it's finger out and do some graft for once , As it is so up it's self because it's complacent , and why should the government fund a private company to roll out Fibre , basically catch up with other European countries , if that private company has allowed it's infrastructure to become outdated, this FTTC rollout should of been completed at least 10yrs ago

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Plenty of other projects have had dates slip or never announced dates. Where do I start?

Very true, not that many have had a series of placeholder dates.

I suspect people would far rather Openreach provide a date and if they don't achieve it then provide a realistic alternative date rather than simply pushing back to the next placeholder, rinsing and repeating ad infinitum.

No data is better than misleading data.

I can't comment that much on other areas but certainly in my own the management of the project is a farce. The PM seems to have no idea what's going on. This isn't a small area or a single town, it's 6 exchanges covering over 100,000 premises.

No plan should be based on the hope that nothin goes wrong if it does it is very poor planning indeed. All plans also should include some contingency

You seem to work to the same strange planning sysytem that BT use. Belive it or not thousands of far more difficult and complet projects are delivered to plan and timescale and budget by other companies so why does BT find the reasonably simple task of installing the Cabinets abd exchange equipment so difficult that many are 2 years behind sechedule?

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

No plan should be based on the hope that nothin goes wrong if it does it is very poor planning indeed. All plans also should include some contingency

Have you ever experienced a project that didn't meet the end date? What happened?

Most commmercial projects have penalty clauses that kick in if you miss them

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

why does BT find the reasonably simple task of installing the Cabinets abd exchange equipment so difficult that many are 2 years behind sechedule?

Because it's not simple.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

Most commmercial projects have penalty clauses that kick in if you miss them

But what happens to the plan?

BT would certainly react far more quickly if there were competion as if BT failed to deliver a compeitor would be taking business from them but as it has no competition it is actually in its best interest to drag its heels

A new date is negotiated with the client

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

A new date is negotiated with the client

That's right, the dates get pushed out.

milestones are more often then not internal key dates. In some cases they may be milestones that the cutomer requirs you to meet. Usually there are no penalty clauses on cutomer agreed milstones but there can be. Milestones can also be used for staged payments so if you dont hit the milestone you may not get paid untill you do

Do you work for BT. as I have never heard of such total rubbish. So you are saying you have no Plan. You have no timescales and you have no budget.?

Of course, an alternative is for the project to be de-scoped.

DEscoped for what reason you have already said BT's plans are not worth he papper they are written onm an according to you you cannot plan the timescales or the budget?

Care to expain how BT have concluded some exchanges are viable and some are not and how they managed to work out how much subsidy they needed or are you suggesting they just keepgoing back to BDUK for more funding when they run out of money.

Also care to explain how BY have comited tothe Government target or did they just say Yes to the date without having a clue as to whether they can meet it?

De-scoping would be the alternative to pushing the dates out. Any cabs that look like they won't meet their date are removed from the project. Would you prefer that?

Active cabinets were not allowed until 2009 and the seperation of Openreach caused problems in 2006 that took some time to recover from and big customers like TalkTalk and Sky have been keen to exploit LLU for the revenue from phone services and BT Group has shareholders who may not share the same optimism as some do with regards to fibre

Of course I wont mention the various projects Ive written software for, where the software was a key but small component, or where in other cases the deadline could not actually be moved

BT has not committed to the government target date, it has committed to end its commercial roll-out and some BDUK projects if you read their plans have milestones in 2015 but continue beyond then

As for exchange viable, accountant sits in office works out cost per cabinet, and lines per cabinet and sees if the project software gives it a yeah or hey

BT meeting the BDUK targets is very much down to whether the BDUK can get EU state aid approval at this time, that is the biggest delay there. Also note the proposed change in planning rules, if planning was not a delaying factor why bother with this change that may become legislation in 2013.

Openreach mess up, but the roll-out is carrying on, and I know some are webbed to the belief it will fail and we will all be doomed to have ADSL only for the next three decades

Question really is whether the people doing the work were idle or busy installing cabinets elsewhere.

Or like once the flood waters subside they might have to be repairing telephone lines that have failed, or repair FTTC cabs that got flooded, rather than install more new hardware.

Just because once does not see activity it does not mean the people doing the work are not busy elsewhere.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

BT would certainly react far more quickly if there were competion as if BT failed to deliver a compeitor would be taking business from them but as it has no competition it is actually in its best interest to drag its heels

Virgin Media would consider themselves competition.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Question really is whether the people doing the work were idle or busy installing cabinets elsewhere.

Or like once the flood waters subside they might have to be repairing telephone lines that have failed, or repair FTTC cabs that got flooded, rather than install more new hardware.

Just because once does not see activity it does not mean the people doing the work are not busy elsewhere.

Of course, this could well be the case, But when openreach AKA BT Refuse to be transparent to us the End user /bill payer /customer and the CP's /Isp's What do they expect us to think ? The reason they are getting slated is because they are far too worried or paranoid about a non existent competitor ,who may roll out their infrastructure before them, We just dont know , and as such are unable to make plans ect , i for one wont be going the FTTC route ,i'll wait until they start offering Fiber on demand (fttp) at reasonable rates or i can buy such from a cp/isp
Or they give isp's the same levels of control over their settings that are available via LLU currently

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

Most commmercial projects have penalty clauses that kick in if you miss them

Very few round my was seem to have penalty clauses. There was a gas main replacement project a few years ago to replace a mile or so of pipe scheduled to last 18 weeks, the work was finally completed after 43 weeks.

The contractors even pulled the entire team off the job for 4 weeks to work on another job 30 miles away.

So all the exchanges that have been booted another 3 months forward, does it mean, even tho cabs etc are in place they don't intend to make them live, just move on to yet another area?

Just means a chance they might be finished in the next 3 months, but no firm date available yet

Most of what is needed is being deployed and used now in Cornwall

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Just means a chance they might be finished in the next 3 months, but no firm date available yet

Over six months ago now, when we were meant to be live in June, Kinda wish I had "NEVER" heard nothng about FTTC ,just a complete waste of time.

All might be pretty clear but its also wrong

Mine was due September and is now accepting orders

In reply to a post by omgFTTC:

Over six months ago now, when we were meant to be live in June, Kinda wish I had "NEVER" heard nothng about FTTC ,just a complete waste of time.

only 6 months???

FTTC first appeared in my neighbourhood in end of 2010. Neighbours not half a street away have been able to order for nearly 20months longer than me.

The date for my cabinet was pushed back and back and back and back until I finally saw works near the PCP in July - and I was able to order and was installed last week. Apparently massive issues locating the FTTC cabinet next to my PCP - I didn't get the details, but it was the only one missed in a large area.

Over half the town couldn't get ADSL (some got 256kbps, many nothing) so BT's customers were losing out to Virgin Media - so I suspect that's why this town had FTTC appear in 2010.

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

Mine was due September and is now accepting orders

Likewise mine said Sept 30th, but on August 26th it went "live"

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

Do you work for BT.

Not one bit in the slightest.

I've worked on some very large, long, technology projects that require good planning by good project managers. But you can't plan for everything, and plans need to be adapted - possibly easily, and possibly with large impact.

as I have never heard of such total rubbish. So you are saying you have no Plan. You have no timescales and you have no budget.?

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that there was no plan, nor that there was no timetable, nor that there was no budget.

In fact I specifically said that the plans had to work efficiently (ie cost-effectively, within budget), but that they had to be adaptable. You even pointed out that having a plan without contingency was stupid - so perhaps it shouldn't be hard for you to believe that BT's plan is built around contingency.

One way to handle contingency is to overstaff, and throw money at any problems to keep to the deadlines - money which we can really ill-afford at this time. Another way to deal with problems is to just let those problem cabinets be pushed-out in time, and let the efficiently-staffed teams come back later.

All I am saying is that I think BT are running the project to favour being in-budget more than they are favouring the meeting of deadlines for *some* of the individual cabinets.

And to do that, I absolutely think they not only have a plan - but that they have a *very* good grasp on it. I believe that the plan takes account of the unknown factors that I listed (or at least it takes account of the fact that these factors *will* appear somewhere) and I believe that they accept that a portion of cabinets will be delayed because of it.

And BT must be doing something right with the *overall* timetable & deadlines. They've changed the plans so they finish in 2014 instead of 2015. And now they're adapting those plans to include the BDUK-funded extras in the 2013-2014 timescales too.

Frankly, if you think you've never heard such rubbish, you need to re-think.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

You are fundamentally wrong here.

Planning permission is an unknown - because you don't know whether you will get it. This can require changing the plan, multiple times.

Power is an unknown - because ....

An excellent post. Which has of course been effectively ignored by the experts I referred to earlier.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Most of what is needed is being deployed and used now in Cornwall

Good point - I've not checked out the Cornish stuff recently. It all seemed to be so sloooow.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

For example myself. My two largest projects were at two separate single sites, one at just over £1m and the other around £1.5m, over 30 years ago. (I wonder how much that is these days?). Completed on time and to budget.

Maybe you can answer then, what happens when a project doesn't meet various milestone dates?

Too hypothetical a question.

My post was merely poking fun at the few who seem to think that their possible knowledge of the user manual for elementary project planning software, and/or organising an office move for 30 people from one place to another, ensuring all the desks and their drawers get to the right place and group calling systems are successfully set up, means they have the slightest idea.

See WWWombat's very good post, listing just some major events that can interfere with even a superb plan that has not been devised incorporating 500% slippage possibility in every path. Itself something that would render the project unviable.

From the published BT results, at the strategic level the coverage and company financial targets seem to be being reasonably well adhered to. That implies brilliant top level project management, and hell for the poor lower level managers who have to redeploy teams of their own and sub-contractors' staff to entirely different areas at less than 24 hours notice because it is not feasible for them to wait a week doing nothing whilst something happens allowing them to do three consecutive half days to enable four specific cabinets on time.

As MrSaffron said. The solution is not to give any date other than the end of 2018 for completion of currently planned deployments.

I accept there could be improvements in the information given to the end user base. The trouble with that is that the more detailed the information that is given, the more changes will also inevitably occur. This giving an even worse impression than now. Catch 22.

Don't think I'm being all-BT-fanboy here though...

Let me be the first to say that I find the information flow from Openreach (about their plans for individual cabinets) to be terrible.

And that their behaviour in making mass push-backs to all remaining dates every quarter is a shocking kick-in-the-teeth to their customers and a shot-in-the-foot to themselves.

But I'm not saying that their planning is bad, or that their handling of contingencies is bad. Or that they're making bad choices about how, where and when to compete with Virgin.

No - what I am saying they are bad at is in keeping the public informed in a decent way.

On here, we *ought* to be the best advocates for fibre-based broadband that you can find in the UK. Instead we're reduced to bickering about the quality of the planning that is otherwise totally hidden from us.

They have done fibre on demand trials
Exchange only lines
Varying sizes of cabinets
Overheard FTTP in tight town streets with poles housing 32 way fibre splitters

They have the advantage of being able to concentrate on their area and some freedom to do things. Some 10,000 homes/businesses with FTTP passed and >1000 connected.

Was interesting being taken around, and also driving myself to the bits you don't get shown and seeing FTTC cabs in many places.

So what did they do for the exchange-only lines? Use fibre-on-demand as the solution?

I just look on the Cornish SFBB website, which suggests that the EO solution is different from FTTP (it gets a different colour in their jigsaw animation) but doesn't hint at what the solution actually is.

I did wonder if it would be a bonded-copper solution, but even that gets a tangential reference to being used in the sparse areas.

And how small did the cabinets go?

Put a new cabinet in place, was an area with long lines too. Covered this solution to EO in news a couple of months ago

Planning permisionis not an Unknow.If you are ina Conservationarea you no youneed planning permision and council planning departments have SLA's sothe timescale is not unknown

Providing power is a known. Power companies have anSLA so aagain that is not unknow. Providing power to cabinitss is so straight forward in 99% of cases it is a joke if BT use this as an excuse foer delays. If there are power delays in99% of cases it is because BT forgate to put inan order in a the required timescales tothe utility companies.Ican assue you Power companies know where their cables are..

AllProjects have plans and some contingency toallow for the unknows. Most commercial projects finish tothe time scale and tobudget. BT is cuurently completing less than 50% to timescales with many being over 12 months late. THat is unaccptable to any sane person. Would you be happy if some one said it would say take 2 days to instasllsay a central heating boiler and it ended uptaking 2 months?Ithink not. Nor would you wear the lame excuses that they were weaaiting for a partor a electrtician

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

Most commercial projects finish tothe time scale and tobudget.

Nonsense.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

Planning permisionis not an Unknow.If you are ina Conservationarea you no youneed planning permision and council planning departments have SLA's sothe timescale is not unknown

Providing power is a known. Power companies have anSLA so aagain that is not unknow. Providing power to cabinitss is so straight forward in 99% of cases it is a joke if BT use this as an excuse foer delays. If there are power delays in99% of cases it is because BT forgate to put inan order in a the required timescales tothe utility companies.Ican assue you Power companies know where their cables are..

Once again you show no idea of what yu are talking about.

Piower suppliers SLA are only on URGENT power issues as in power cuts or live lines in dangerous situations.

Non-urgent or routine matters have no such SLA.

I had out mains supply box leaking tar out of it as it was a common insulator in the 50's when the house was built and even though it was making a mess etc UK power networks took six weeks to send somebody around and then in the end it was a sub contractor.

Our cabinets were something similar with a 3 month wait from cabinet going in and again sub contractors doing the job.

The problem is that BT went to the power network companies said they were planning this level of work, the power companies either just nodded their heads expecting them to scale back or just underestimated what they were being told.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

Planning permisionis not an Unknow.If you are ina Conservationarea you no youneed planning permision and council planning departments have SLA's sothe timescale is not unknown

Nonsense. The council may have an SLA to respond (they probably call it a target though, as there isn't really a contract), but they're not forced to respond with a YES. It can take more time than expected - to the extent that BT have given up in some locations.

Beyond full planning permission, the council have other responsibilities - including control of the highways. The council can request changes to cabinet siting based on the impact to roads (eg where the pavement is narrow, or the site is too close to the road, or blocks sight-lines). Again, I've heard of cases where refusal from the highways dept causes significant problems (cos there's nowhere left to put the cabinet). I was just reading about a cabinet that got located in a churchyard because the roads were unsuitable.

Every cabinet has to go through this process, and most sail through because of the right amount of pre-planning & co-ordination. But some don't - and our whole disagreement is based on these few - there are unknowns in here. Not fully unknown, but sufficient to build the system around coping with those unknowns. There are no guarantees.

Providing power is a known. Power companies have anSLA so aagain that is not unknow. Providing power to cabinitss is so straight forward in 99% of cases it is a joke if BT use this as an excuse foer delays.

Nonsense. Again power companies may have an SLA to respond, but that doesn't mean that power work can be automatically assumed to go right. And of course, the companies can resort to a "force majeure" clause in the event of workforce being needed elsewhere. No guarantees.

My cabinet is a prime example. It is sitting next to a lit roadsign, but that power source obviously wasn't good enough. The first roadworks to install power presumably established this. 2 months later, new roadworks went across the street & over to near a lampost. Obviously still not good enough. A month later, further roadworks went along the path (in the other direction to the original ones). Within 2 weeks, cabinet was made available - the last in the area.

Again - most work reasonably, but some don't.

How many? I doubt you are right that 99% are straightforward, which smacks of a guess to me. My exchange has 43 cabinets, with not all being converted, so even a single problem here amounts to at least 2.5% - yet my cabinet wasn't the only one delayed by power. My personal guess would be that the figure is nearer 10-20%.

If there are power delays in99% of cases it is because BT forgate to put inan order in a the required timescales tothe utility companies.

I think you are exaggerating a little to suggest that "there are power delays in 99% of cases."

It is ludicrous to believe that, in a nationwide rollout involving 2,000 exchanges and over 40,000 cabinets, BT regularly "forget" to put in an order for power. Poppycock.

But I bet it happens to a few.

Ican assue you Power companies know where their cables are..

And I can assure you that they don't know the state of them all.

This is the real world. Things go wrong. The plans come unstuck in places. The system is designed to get over it - without throwing money at it - at the expense of delaying some cabinets. Live with it.

Remember bob is right an BT cannot plan its way out of a paper bag, which is why no-one can ever make a telephone call or use the internet in this country.

One one hand we Bod arguing his side, and others trying to not say BT is a paragon of virtue, but is perhaps doing better than the disaster some portray and it becoming a verbal spar with very little or no data to back things up.

Yes a lot of exchanges slipped, but what is less obvious is whether in the same period more cabs were added to other areas, certainly some posters have mentioned infill going on in some areas.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

AllProjects have plans and some contingency toallow for the unknows. Most commercial projects finish tothe time scale and tobudget. BT is cuurently completing less than 50% to timescales with many being over 12 months late. THat is unaccptable to any sane person. Would you be happy if some one said it would say take 2 days to instasllsay a central heating boiler and it ended uptaking 2 months?Ithink not. Nor would you wear the lame excuses that they were weaaiting for a partor a electrtician

Why do you spout such absolute rubbish when it is clear that you know absolutely nothing about project management. No doubt you'll be back at the end of December posting the same twaddle when BT extend all outstanding provisional dates again, and then at the end of next March.

If you've got something sensible to contribute please share it but otherwise I would suggest stepping back from your keyboard.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

BT is cuurently completing less than 50% to timescales with many being over 12 months late.

The source of these statistics?

One problem you have is that all the timescales for individual exchanges and individual cabinets are heavily specified with get-out clauses that indicate things may change. Those clauses are there because of a very specific reason - things *do* change. Did you see the story that BT halted work in Kensington & Chelsea because the council rejected most of the planning requests?

The only real timescale that they can currently be held accountable against is whether they reach 67% coverage by the end of 2014.

Pssst. BT's own statistics say that the rollout is using 25 million manhours, and involves 650 planners and 4,000 engineers. Here they state that they're converting between 2,500 and 3,000 cabinets per quarter - connecting over 100,000 properties (at 2,000 per day). Do you really have the stats to say that half of them are late? You must be tracking a lot of cabinets...

The scale looks right. To reach 40,000 cabinets and 20 million properties over a 4 year project, they do indeed need to hit 2,500 cabinets and over a million properties each quarter.

On the overall timescales though...
- Last year, BT reduced their target for reaching 67% coverage from 2015 to 2014.
- 5 months ago, they announced that they'd already reached the 2012 goal of passing 10 million properties (which is 37% coverage, apparently), up from the 4 million they'd reached in February 2011.
- In February 2011, the latest announcement took the number of exchanges in the plan to 800. Today there are roughly 1800 in the plan, and 1200 are already in the "accepting orders" list.
These numbers suggest that "the big picture" is certainly moving along just fine - in fact better than fine. It suggests that they'll be able to handle the BDUK-funded work in parallel too.

With the sheer scale of some of these numbers, you really need to have some good numbers yourself to back up the poppycock that you're peddling. You do have them, don't you? You aren't entirely relying on hyperbole, right?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Remember bob is right an BT cannot plan its way out of a paper bag, which is why no-one can ever make a telephone call or use the internet in this country.

One one hand we Bod arguing his side, and others trying to not say BT is a paragon of virtue, but is perhaps doing better than the disaster some portray and it becoming a verbal spar with very little or no data to back things up.

Yes a lot of exchanges slipped, but what is less obvious is whether in the same period more cabs were added to other areas, certainly some posters have mentioned infill going on in some areas.

I agree that arguing with Bob is indeed making BT look like, as you say, a paragon of virtue. I don't believe it for one second - but I also know that most people on here just don't understand the sheer scale of a national rollout of *anything*. We don't have nationwide coverage of electricity, gas, water or sewage yet!

It is indeed hard to tell whether, in the face of delays in some cabinets (or even exchanges), BT go back and convert cabinets elsewhere. Certainly the habit of only announcing exchange availability hides the local detail, so all we are left with is to watch the big picture - the total number of cabinets converted, or the number of premises passed - and compare those to the final targets.

I think I made both points in my last post on here - that the sheer scale means monitoring 3,000 cabinets each quarter to be able to know how many are late, and that BT keep announcing the "big picture" numbers early (like reaching 10 million premises in May this year).

BT may not be perfect, but there's a blend of scale and "just ambitious enough" about this project that I do admire.
- I'd prefer full fibre, but this country (mostly on £7pm broadband bundles) isn't ready to pay for it yet. Dreams without the means.
- There's a distinct pragmatic-business-realism about the FTTC solution that is turning out to be pretty decent now (who'd have thought 80/20 would turn out so "easy" ), probably good enough for most top-end premises for a decade, and sufficient for the low-end for longer. That BT have turned it into a stepping-stone for FTTP (with fibre-on-demand) becomes an concept that will interesting to watch over the next few years. The question for any copper incumbant is certainly how to become a fibre incumbant without doing it all at once.
- I'd prefer more solutions for those in the rural areas (ie in the final 10% stuck with BDUK's 2Mbps target) - but I detect that solutions are at least being discussed, and communities being involved - which is a distinct step.

In contrast, Virgin continue to do nothing whatsoever to expand their network. In relative terms, they just seem to lack any ambition whatsoever.

Add vectoring which is in an interesting phase in Germany and another boost to 100Meg+ for FTTC

The key fact is that if all the other utilities had been left to pure commercial market, then coverage of them would be even lower. The most expensive to reach may well never be commercially viable, at least within property owners lifetime.

Facts for those who like to base their comments on them. ( yes it repeats an earlier post that people seem to have ignored)

I have kept spreadsheets from various dates and the reality is on 27/06/2012 Openreach had 171 exchanges planned for Sep 2012 ( none for June). 153 for Dec 2012.

By 02/08/12 they had enabled 19.
By 03/09/12 a further 29
By 25/09/12 a further 63
Total 111, 98 show on the June 'coming soon' list as Sep 2012 and 11 show as Dec 2012 and 2 were not on the list at all!

So 73 (42%) of the Sep 2012 were not completed to date, but 13 are ahead of the list.
Gives 58% completed as of 25/09/12 but I would count these again next monday to get the accurate count.
Also 7% of Dec are already complete in advance so someone should be happy somewhere!

Bt could fix all this banter by doing one thing. Remove all dates and then ya can argue about something else.
If you think Open reach are doing such a bad job with installing fibre to your part of the country then feel free to fund the install yourself.

That does actually bring to mind an idea: would it be viable for BTO ask people to pay for priority in the roll out?

ie, if X number of people connected to a cab are willing to stump up a few hundred quid then BTO would commit to installing FTTC (or at least starting work) there within a certain timescale.

In reply to a post by DrBC:

That does actually bring to mind an idea: would it be viable for BTO ask people to pay for priority in the roll out?

ie, if X number of people connected to a cab are willing to stump up a few hundred quid then BTO would commit to installing FTTC (or at least starting work) there within a certain timescale.

I wouldn't say so, But if they did something similar with FFTH they may be on a winner, as they are not going to dig a trench install ducting under the footpath each time a customer wants fiber on demand (FTTH) they would install one duct or use the existing ducting if present /possible , but charge the 1st customer a small fortune no doubt,

As for the info side of things there should be 2 different sets one for exchange and other for Cabs , as to give the same date for both is just head office drivel, and that is also somewhat misleading as BT have no intention of enabling all installed cabs at the same time, and by it only requiring 1 FTTC cab to be accepting orders for the exchange to be marked the same, could be seen as an attempt to make it look like they have done or doing more progress wise , To give the appearance that they are meeting their targets blah blah blah bt drivel...................

Edited by tommy45 (Fri 28-Sep-12 20:39:14)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

drivel...................

gravy train is a gravy train.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

ALL THOSE - which you contradict by saying MAJORITY.

Which is it?

Better to be on the list, rather than have no idea if you are getting a USC satellite or FTTC.

I was dec 2012 and still am dec 2012, so clearly not all.

The exact date given to me by openreach was 6 dec 2012.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Facts for those who like to base their comments on them. ( yes it repeats an earlier post that people seem to have ignored)

I have kept spreadsheets from various dates and the reality is on 27/06/2012 Openreach had 171 exchanges planned for Sep 2012 ( none for June). 153 for Dec 2012.

By 02/08/12 they had enabled 19.
By 03/09/12 a further 29
By 25/09/12 a further 63
Total 111, 98 show on the June 'coming soon' list as Sep 2012 and 11 show as Dec 2012 and 2 were not on the list at all!

So 73 (42%) of the Sep 2012 were not completed to date, but 13 are ahead of the list.
Gives 58% completed as of 25/09/12 but I would count these again next monday to get the accurate count.
Also 7% of Dec are already complete in advance so someone should be happy somewhere!

A couple of comments:

- You may need to go further back to properly comment on the state of the "September" exchanges. As you noted, some December ones moved forwards - so how many of the original September batch moved forward into June (or March)? And conversely, how many from March/June got delayed back into September?

- "Completed" is a bad word to use. Once the exchange is announced RFS, we're only halfway there ("half" being an approximation). BT say they open up the exchange once 10 cabinets are ready, which might only be a small proportion of the total. (The number 10 was recently discussed as myth, but I found the BT page that describes this)

-Counting exchanges is one thing, while counting cabinets would be better. September's exchange-count could be low because engineers spent more time completing cabinets within the June exchanges. Or it could be a high exchange count, but a low cabinet count.

Someone on here is keeping tabs on all the cabinets in the Margate area. I don't know how they're getting all the information, but it is the kind of detail needed to show actual on-the-ground progress.

But...

Don't let these comments put you off - because the more detail, the better. Counting exchanges is all we can do, and these facts are indeed useful.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

Project Managers are in the real world expected to meed project dates and yes they also have to deliver to budgets and in most cases slipping dates pushes up costs as well as upsetting your customers

your post confused me. My dec stayed as dec but my original date was sept 2012. So when you say sept do yo umean the original date?

Also bear in mind its highly probably BT have internal target dates that are more realistic but not given to the public, these are more for PR.

Gosh 3rd parties involved. Did BT not know tha. If BT were building houses none would ever be completed

SLA's only apply to non urgent work. Urgent work as it says on the label is Urgent and is given priority and normallly work starts on it ASAP

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Facts for those who like to base their comments on them. ( yes it repeats an earlier post that people seem to have ignored)

I have kept spreadsheets from various dates and the reality is on 27/06/2012 Openreach had 171 exchanges planned for Sep 2012 ( none for June). 153 for Dec 2012.

By 02/08/12 they had enabled 19.
By 03/09/12 a further 29
By 25/09/12 a further 63
Total 111, 98 show on the June 'coming soon' list as Sep 2012 and 11 show as Dec 2012 and 2 were not on the list at all!

So 73 (42%) of the Sep 2012 were not completed to date, but 13 are ahead of the list.
Gives 58% completed as of 25/09/12 but I would count these again next monday to get the accurate count.
Also 7% of Dec are already complete in advance so someone should be happy somewhere!

A couple of comments:

- You may need to go further back to properly comment on the state of the "September" exchanges. As you noted, some December ones moved forwards - so how many of the original September batch moved forward into June (or March)? And conversely, how many from March/June got delayed back into September?

- "Completed" is a bad word to use. Once the exchange is announced RFS, we're only halfway there ("half" being an approximation). BT say they open up the exchange once 10 cabinets are ready, which might only be a small proportion of the total. (The number 10 was recently discussed as myth, but I found the BT page that describes this)

-Counting exchanges is one thing, while counting cabinets would be better. September's exchange-count could be low because engineers spent more time completing cabinets within the June exchanges. Or it could be a high exchange count, but a low cabinet count.

Someone on here is keeping tabs on all the cabinets in the Margate area. I don't know how they're getting all the information, but it is the kind of detail needed to show actual on-the-ground progress.

But...

Don't let these comments put you off - because the more detail, the better. Counting exchanges is all we can do, and these facts are indeed useful.

I can confirm that the 10 FTTC cabs have to be live before the exchange is marked as accepting orders is total bull manure , The exchange is accepting orders and only 2 FTTC cabs on that exchange are live/working , The RFS dates mean very little for most, But it's once that the exchange is accepting orders but most of the FTTC cabs are not you enter the unknown, there's no info available as to when they will be live(accepting orders) apart from the same ,now incorrect RFS date that the exchange was given, Even CP's don't get updated that frequently by openwound on cabs coming online

According to BT Openreach's own 'When and where FTTC' site, my exchange is now accepting orders although the small details say from 30.09.12. However, trying to place an order via BT Openreach, another page says my order cannot be placed until 30 December.

In reply to a post by wobblyheed:

According to BT Openreach's own 'When and where FTTC' site, my exchange is now accepting orders although the small details say from 30.09.12. However, trying to place an order via BT Openreach, another page says my order cannot be placed until 30 December.

At least they gave you a estimated date, if i enter some numbers in it it just says it's not available,lol none are exchange lines all are connected to pcp's that have a FTTC cab near/next to them , ADSL checker gives either no info or same date as exchange rfs date 30th September ,lol

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

SLA's only apply to non urgent work. Urgent work as it says on the label is Urgent and is given priority and normallly work starts on it ASAP

You really have no idea... Work is urgent because it has an SLA associated with it, ie someone wants any problems fixed PDQ and is prepared to pay for that speed.

Exactly the same fault without an associated SLA isn't urgent, because nobody thinks it's important enough.

Just checked my postcode: "Your cabinet is planned to have WBC FTTC by 30th September 2012".

Guess it's being installed tomorrow then!

THat is incorrect. Most work by power companies hasd an SLA. Urgent work such as power lines coming down gets priority. It does not affect the SLA though

Possibly down to the normal BT say the exchange is accepting orders but only some cabinets areso although the exchange is technically accepting orders your cabinet may not be , it may not even be included in the Roolout. When you come down to Cabinet level it's a black art. Knowone really knows what goesa on at that level it is very hit and miss

different BT sites seem to give different answers. THe best bet is the OPENREACH one but thats far from accurate and if you are down to cabinet level it's a black art.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

different BT sites seem to give different answers. THe best bet is the OPENREACH one but thats far from accurate and if you are down to cabinet level it's a black art.

And that's where they fail on an epic scale , All the FTTC cabs that are not in service will only require the fibre link back to the exchange , Mains power is connected and commissioned the PCP link cables are in ,So for them not to be in a position to release a estimate as to when they will of carried out this final step is a stupid mistake on their part , because the work will already be planned out, and if they have any clue they will know already about the ducting side of things plus the majority of it will probably run alongside the existing main bt copper bundle that is under the road , Just another area where BT fail

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

Urgent work such as power lines coming down gets priority.

Exactly- they have a requirement to maintain the service, a Service Level Agreement (though it may also be a legal requirement, it's still an SLA).

That's what SLA stands for, it's an agreement (contract) to maintain a defined level of service, which they can't do until the power lines are repaired.

eta- and it will only be urgent if they can't maintain the service to the affected area by using a different route. If they can, they're likely to be more leisurely about the repairs.

Edited by billford (Sat 29-Sep-12 17:15:21)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

All the FTTC cabs that are not in service will only require the fibre link back to the exchange , Mains power is connected and commissioned the PCP link cables are in

Simples.

In reply to a post by tommy45:

And that's where they fail on an epic scale , All the FTTC cabs that are not in service will only require the fibre link back to the exchange , Mains power is connected and commissioned the PCP link cables are in ,So for them not to be in a position to release a estimate as to when they will of carried out this final step is a stupid mistake on their part , because the work will already be planned out, and if they have any clue they will know already about the ducting side of things plus the majority of it will probably run alongside the existing main bt copper bundle that is under the road , Just another area where BT fail

In addition to your list...

The other end of the fibre needs to be there - the fibre connection points on the way back to the exchange, the head-end exchange-based equipment, the exchange-based power, and any upgrades to the backhaul.

So, apart from the cabinet itself (which may not have equipment inside it yet), all that is needed is ... ... everything else.

Does this add anything to the discussion? Or was it just another opportunity to moan about BT? A generic, half-baked moan without one specific detail or fact included.

I guess the 11 million properties that *can* get SFBB from BT are an unlucky accident.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

In reply to a post by tommy45:

And that's where they fail on an epic scale , All the FTTC cabs that are not in service will only require the fibre link back to the exchange , Mains power is connected and commissioned the PCP link cables are in ,So for them not to be in a position to release a estimate as to when they will of carried out this final step is a stupid mistake on their part , because the work will already be planned out, and if they have any clue they will know already about the ducting side of things plus the majority of it will probably run alongside the existing main bt copper bundle that is under the road , Just another area where BT fail

In addition to your list...

The other end of the fibre needs to be there - the fibre connection points on the way back to the exchange, the head-end exchange-based equipment, the exchange-based power, and any upgrades to the backhaul.

So, apart from the cabinet itself (which may not have equipment inside it yet), all that is needed is ... ... everything else.

Does this add anything to the discussion? Or was it just another opportunity to moan about BT? A generic, half-baked moan without one specific detail or fact included.

I guess the 11 million properties that *can* get SFBB from BT are an unlucky accident.

Ah but i have inside info see, The exchange end fibre is present, hence the 2 cabs already accepting orders the fftc cabs at time of install already have all the hardware installed ,even the mains company 100amp fuse and electric meter fitted in the L H side panel So once the thing is in situ & bolted to the deck all that remains is to connect the link cables from PCP and mains power &certify that it is electrically safe I know for a fact that the majority of the FTTC cabs have the mains power connected at time of install or shortly after , then the pcp link is installed , leaving the actual fibre from exchange , this is the situation where i live , as they will have already planned when they are going to install that to the cabs and in which order !!!

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 29-Sep-12 17:46:21)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Ah but i have inside info see

So what's the problem?

Emergency repairs do not normally have much impact on normal day to day work. It is normally different teams and sub contractors. Clearly a major outage would have some impact such as if significant problems occur due to widespead flooding or storms. THis situations thoufgh are very uncommon

It will come as no consolation to you ADSL/VDSL types, but Virgin Media have had to delay many of their "double speed" fibre rollouts, some up to a year from the original dates! And I need say nothing about the "reduce all VM email domains to one or two", now probably 18 months late and with no obvious sign of a new end date.

So does that mean that very few large IT projects ever come in on time?

Why would you want to install an empty cabinnet. It is far more efficient to build the cabinets and test and commision them in a factory then all you have to do is connect them up and away you go

In reply to a post by wobblyheed:

According to BT Openreach's own 'When and where FTTC' site, my exchange is now accepting orders although the small details say from 30.09.12. However, trying to place an order via BT Openreach, another page says my order cannot be placed until 30 December.

Ummmm .

You cannot place an order via Openreach, only via an ISP. I assume therefore you mean BT (Retail) Infinity.

What happens if you try another ISP such as vivaciti, ADSL24 or Plusnet? BT Retail have been known to delay the occasional availability on their system.

In reply to a post by John_Gray:

So does that mean that very few large IT projects ever come in on time?

That's what I think. They either get de-scoped or the dates move. Although, some get cancelled which is the ultimate de-scope.

It would be madeness for BT to only install the equipment and power requirements at the exchange for only the cabnets enabled to date. Equally if they have run fibre to one cabinet it is stupid not to do the rest. BT though in my opinion are daft enough to do that. There are plenty of stories of BT starting on a cabinet and then leaving it and coming back to it several times.It must be costing them a fortune return visits are very expensive. It also probably at least partly accounts for the massive delays

In spite of what some posters think it is not rocket science and is in fact pretty straight forward to install a cabinet. THe main variable is with pulling in the fbre but BT should have pretty good recoords of their ducting and should as well be able to come up with an estimate of the number of blockages per km of line

Edited by deleted (Sat 29-Sep-12 18:51:56)

You must be very rich.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

In spite of what some posters think it is not rocket science and is in fact pretty straight forward to install a cabinet.

How many have you managed, planned and installed?

You come across as somebody who thinks he is an expert pilot because he has managed to land a plane in a Flight Sim.

On the face of it i would agree, but it is just possible that they may be dragging their heels deliberately as we are all too well aware their customer support is based overseas in India, with the recent announcement that they will be extending the cheap install offers to Isp's see Openreach announcement May be they are now also doing a bit of "Indian giving "too, After all this is BT we are talking about ,I wonder how many exchanges listed have 1 been pushed back by at least 3mths,2 have an exchange "accepting orders" but only to upto 288 lines or in my area a max of 576 lines, within areas that already have VM cable , makes you wonder what substances the person who makes these decisions is taking beforehand,
As for the planned routes that the fiber will take they am sure could have easily surveyed most of the ducting by now , it's not as if they are in any rush is it

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 29-Sep-12 20:16:29)

How many engineering projects have you managed, planned and installed?

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

In spite of what some posters think it is not rocket science and is in fact pretty straight forward to install a cabinet. THe main variable is with pulling in the fbre but BT should have pretty good recoords of their ducting and should as well be able to come up with an estimate of the number of blockages per km of line

You really don't have a clue.

Until you actually have something sensible to say why not step away from the keyboard. I've yet to see a sensible or logical post from you, instead all I see is a an obvious lack of any relevant knowledge and a lot of false information, untruths and ill-informed supposition.

You are right it is really easy to install a cab. Openreach do it in two two hour visits, lots of people have watched.

1. Build the plinth.
2. Offload the cab and Bolt it down

Really simple and they do it numerous times every working day.

As everybody keeps telling you but you don't listen. The difficult part is getting everything connected. They all require different skills so are done by different people at different times.

Easy to guess how many blockages per Km but impossible to guess where they are until you find them. Each has then to be cleared before you come back again to pull or blow the fibre through the sub-duct.

You have obviously never had dealings with utility companies for new supply as these are never under SLAs, which deal with existing supply and ALWAYs come before providing new.

Many of the complaints are not to do with massive delays but with cabinets that are not planned. people are just impatient when their house cannot get what they want when they want it.

Reality is in two years since they started properly Openreach have provided FTTC to over 11m of the houses in the country and in the other 13m are a number of vocal people who want theirs today.

You just happen to be one of the most vocal who doesn't like not being first.

WWombat

I have older data, but thought I'd keep it simple using just the last 3 months.

I can look in an earlier file to see how many exchanges badged as June 2012 are not accepting orders so far. If I go back far enough there will be some not done ( South Kensington is one but that is the council fault not BT's).

It would be great to do this on cabinets but not possible unless someone has a list of all those complete, to match with the Dec list of those planned. Judging by comments on here and other places, up to 10% forecast may be discovered as too difficult to do (no 'agreed' place, uneconomic or just take too long). These are now appearing on the Openreach site so people can at least have an idea of what caused theirs to be stopped.

I am waiting till monday to see how many have actually been opened up for the July to Sep period. I do have sympathy for Openreach with the weather we have had over the summer, including last week! It is quite amazing that they have done as many as they have when everything has been under water at least once and sometimes 3/4 times. Must be difficult to dig power in when things are under two foot of water.

If you can get a new cabinet file we could see how many cabs are complete/non complete. But the leak appears to be fixed!.

One of the ISPs could do this and let us know the results, say compare Dec 11 sheet to sep 12 sheet and tell us increase in the number that are live. How many that were planned up to Phase 8a are not live yet. That may put some reality to the cab numbers.
I would not expect more than 85% completed as I believe the sheets were a forecast of what they wanted to do before they had looked at all the detail.

Good news is mine is now live.

I have Project managed projects of over £500K and with far greater complexity than the realativly simple task of installing an FTTC cabinet where some people think getting a power connection to it is a major undertaking. Let me assure you it is not. and let me assure you that power companies do have SLA's for this and average a 95% adherance to it. If BT are saying power is a major problem than the problem is with BT not the utility companies.. Perhaps if they told the utility companies in advance when and where they want the power they would not have a problem. BT';s constant slippage of the schedule must be causing the power companies major problems., THey will have the program plugged into there planning system but as BT's schedule appears to be not worth the paper its is wriiten on it how do they expect the utility companies to be able to respond to a schedule which is like quicksand. If BT say they want to have power installed to a cabinet on Station Road on the 26th June thn the power companies can do it. but if on the 25june they suddenly decided they dont want power there put want it for a cabinet 50 milesa away on the 5th July they will have problems. BT seems to have a random planning and project management system.

Try delivering major communication sytemss to a war zone. You have to get things right.. BT need to stop the endless excuses and get their project management sorted out


Some here seem to think most of the UK has been underwater this summer.m Thats fiction. THere has been flooding in some areas but these have been isolated occurances and not widespread

Once they have fibre to one cabinet in an area it becomes relative quick and easy todothe rest. THe constant report claims of BT taking several months to install one cabinet makes no sense nor do the claims that the power companies are at fault. In 99% of cases supplying power to a cabinet is a piece of cake. It is bread and butter stuff for them. THe delays are almost certainly down to BT. THey will have plugged BT's requirements into their planning system but as we know BT change the plan constantly and the power compnies will struugle to cope with a plan that changes by the day, THey cannot schedule resources on that basis. If BT sorted themselves out the rollout would be quicker, more efficient and cheaper.

Well I know that carillon connected the mains supplies at the same time as the cabs were bolted down, apart from a handful of them, they left the hole in footway until they returned and connected it,(2weeks later) all the work carried out by carillion was carried out largely according to plan, i even saw them finishing a cab install after 6pm one night,

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 29-Sep-12 23:44:31)

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

I have Project managed projects of over £500K

Really?

Judging by the level of understanding you've demonstrated in this thread (and others) I wouldn't employ you to manage the installation of a whelk stall on Southend beach.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

I have Project managed projects of over £500K and with far greater complexity than the realativly simple task of installing an FTTC cabinet

This was the interactive tutorial for which PM software?

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

I have Project managed projects of over £500K and with far greater complexity than the realativly simple task of installing an FTTC cabinet where some people think getting a power connection to it is a major undertaking. Let me assure you it is not.

LOL.

No-one has suggested that installing a single FTTC cabinet is a complex task. On the whole it is pretty easy. Getting power to a single cabinet is easy too. Dealing with one, or two, or five or ten problems with that one cabinet - easy too.

The complexity comes when you have 50,000 to do. And 2,000 exchanges to support them. The complexity comes not in the sheer numbers, but in the parallelism. The complexity comes in the scheduling. The complexity comes in the necessary adaptability needed to cope with problems (and consequent delays), and the re-scheduling to keep everything ticking over without wasting money.

Your project budget sounds impressive, but in reality it would be enough to do just 10 cabinets.

As I've said before... Some people just don't comprehend the sheer scale involved.

You've likened it to getting a plumber to fix your central heating. Unfortunately, you need to be thinking bigger. You need the plumbers to fix central heating in every house in a city the size of Reading, or a county the size of Herefordshire.

But even that is too easy - because everything is so close together - and fixing central heating is a little easy. Perhaps you need to organise the full first-fit and second-fit, all the trades, of a city the size of Reading. That's still not enough - so how about adding the fact the house needs building first. 50,000 houses - all in parallel - with everyone demanding that *their* house is done first.

Or perhaps someone told you to build Milton Keynes, in 5 years. Concrete cows optional.

If BT are saying power is a major problem than the problem is with BT not the utility companies.. Perhaps if they told the utility companies in advance when and where they want the power they would not have a problem. BT';s constant slippage of the schedule must be causing the power companies major problems.,

3 sentences, and 3 guesses.

THey will have the program plugged into there planning system but as BT's schedule appears to be not worth the paper its is wriiten on it how do they expect the utility companies to be able to respond to a schedule which is like quicksand.

Another guess.

Your, and our, experience is of the end result only - a cabinet getting delayed. You have NO idea of what is going on within BT's internal schedule, and therefore can make no conclusion about whether it is causing any problem for utility companies to respond to.

It is just as possible that the delays are perfectly well managed, and that the internal schedule gets requests through to the utility companies in perfect time. The delays could come before this (so the request to the utility is also delayed) or after this (so no impact), or in parallel with this (such as with fibre ducts blocking). Or, of course, the delays can be caused by making .

The system probably isn't perfect - but that's a guess too. At least I know when I'm making them.

BT seems to have a random planning and project management system.

Again, you're seeing the end result, and guessing as to what the cause is along the way. More than that, you are guessing that there is even a problem.

The fact is that we see delays for individual cabinets & exchanges. But we do NOT know whether that means the overall project is delayed, and we do not know if the delays are caused by bad planning.

It could be that the amount of delays (to individual parts) are fully expected within the (operational) plans, and that there is sufficient capacity to deal with the delays in the bigger picture.

It could be that the biggest cause (to our angst) is merely in the marketing information being handed out to the public. That marketing people are being too keen to label an exchange as due on X, without taking the same care that the technical people are to build in spare capacity. Or perhaps they think that, with their "exchanges may be delayed" get-out clause will actually be understood & believed.

For every delayed cabinet, you want to blame an out-of-control planning department.

I, on the other hand, think it is more appropriate to blame an overly-optimistic marketing department, who build people's expectations up too much.

I understand why the marketers WANT to build expectations up - but I think there are better ways to do it, and that they need to let people down more gently when something goes wrong.

Unfortunately, marketers trade best on people's emotions. All the information we are working from are messages from BT's marketers - and are designed to target emotions. And the rants, and illogical rages against the planners - all stem from these emotions.

I think people need to step back, stop raging against the technical people who deal with facts & problems on a day-in, day-out basis, and start raging against the marketers.

BT need to stop the endless excuses and get their project management sorted out

What excuses? I don't think I've seen BT moan. I think I've only seen them parade the adaptations they've made to improve the process. Things like the "super spade", the "conductive cement" or the "plastic base".

Try delivering major communication sytemss to a war zone. You have to get things right..

In some senses, it's a little easier. For instance, there's the whole logistics of the armed forces available to you if you encounter a problem. and there's a large focus on getting it done.

I disagree that it is always about getting it *right* - and more about getting it *done*. And then fixed later, if need be.

Need an extra container with a mobile cell transceiver? Just throw it in that C5, we'll have it there tomorrow.

In fact it is strange - because I normally see a great sense of pragmatism from any dealing with the armed forces - and you just don't see to show any of that. I would have thought you'd be rather better at understanding that problems happen, and you just deal with them as & when they come up.

Oh, and there's another thing about war zones. They just chomp through budgets while no-one is looking. The whole "just do that now, we'll sort it out later" attitude seems to apply to budget as well as operational matters - and that, of course, manages to grease things along a little faster. Perhaps that shouldn't be carried over into a domestic setting.

But again, those are my impressions & guesses, and I'm sure I'm wrong there in some ways. I will readily admit there are greater experts in those fields, and leave it to them. I *won't* assume, with zero facts, that they're all cack-handed at their job.

[Hmmm. Interestingly, I read that Camp Bastion is the same size as Reading. Perhaps we need you get you to build that...]

I understand that there are now just under 31,000 active cabs providing service