so it starts

Had a letter from Vodafone yesterday, saying good news you can upgrade to full fibre or something like. i have never used Vodafone for broadband, i did for mobile many years ago, but it was addressed to the occupier.
I have not had any letter from any broadband provider apart from Zzoomm in the last few weeks, far too many to be honest from Zzoomm, So is this what I am going to get now leaflets and letters from different providers saying that I can get full fibre?

I've had numerous flyers for Hey!Broadband...after having the service installed.

If City Fibre have just installed optical cabling in your neighbourhood then you should expect to receive offers from other ISPs who use them.

When OpenReach FTTP came to our area we didn't have any flyers to tell us it was available - I only knew as I happened to go on the BT website to check package availability.

CityFibre and VodaFone may be more keen to try and make a recovery on their investment - the "good" news is there are fewer suppliers on CityFibre and so you aren't likely to get that many different ones through the letterbox, but no idea how aggressive CityFibre ISPs are at marketing.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

If City Fibre have just installed optical cabling in your neighbourhood then you should expect to receive offers from other ISPs who use them.

Not city fibre, we have Openreach fibre and Zzoomm. Zzoomm have been the one for flyers, I must be having one every couple of days, they also had someone call round, but I was at work.
Just seems to be wasting paper, I have enough from the T.V licensing, had another yesterday as well

In reply to a post by ian72:

CityFibre and VodaFone may be more keen to try and make a recovery on their investment

They certainly are. When CityFibre cabling was installed here recently we got a number of offers - even a couple of Vodaphone people going from house to house. I guess it makes sense for them to target advertising at such areas, particularly when BT full fibre isn't available.

Just waiting for my BT contract to run our before I switch.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Had a letter from Vodafone yesterday, saying good news you can upgrade to full fibre or something like.

Totally normal for some to be sent out (e.g. Vodafone, Sky) after Openreach FTTP infrastructure gone live in a new area. Like all others crud that comes through the door you have a choice, either read or bin (or alternatively post about it on a forum).

In reply to a post by ian72:

When OpenReach FTTP came to our area we didn't have any flyers to tell us it was available - I only knew as I happened to go on the BT website to check package availability.

CityFibre and VodaFone may be more keen to try and make a recovery on their investment - the "good" news is there are fewer suppliers on CityFibre and so you aren't likely to get that many different ones through the letterbox, but no idea how aggressive CityFibre ISPs are at marketing.

Vodafone will be over Openreach FTTP here as we don't have city fibre, so no investment here, it will be openreach that have done the investment, and Zzoomm for their network
We will see how many we get in the next few weeks and from whom, I am surprised I have got nothing from my own broadband provider yet.

Vodafone seems very random, it is not really a provider most people would link with broadband, not that I would ever have a service from them again.

Ian

That has changed now, we had flyers from Sky before the CBTs went up (Rest of the area was complete) and have had ones from BT, Sky (again) Vodaphone and a couple of smaller players since the availability went live. All generic to the occupier deliver to all via postal service.

If the flyer was posted to you, there's little you can do about it (except be glad that Vodafone wasted some money on the postage).

If the flyer was delivered by Royal Mail as part of an unaddressed "door to door" drop, it's possible to opt out. You have to renew it every two years.
https://personal.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/deta...
https://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/files/D2D-Op...

If it was delivered by some other company, you're stuck. There's the "Your Choice" opt-out scheme: how it works is you register with the DMA and then they forward your personal details to all the local spamming companies in your area. That doesn't sound like a great option to me.

Solution: keep recycling bin next to front door; place directly from doormat into bin; move on with your life.

In reply to a post by ian72:

When OpenReach FTTP came to our area we didn't have any flyers to tell us it was available - I only knew as I happened to go on the BT website to check package availability.

With our BDUK FTTP, the only reason we knew it was coming was that gf found surveyor leaning on our bin, apparently the BT customers where contacted after it was deployed, everyone else it was by word of mouth, some never knew for couple of years!

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Had a letter from Vodafone yesterday, saying good news you can upgrade to full fibre or something like. i have never used Vodafone for broadband, i did for mobile many years ago, but it was addressed to the occupier.

The post office deliver these "occupier" letters, pretty much as a revenue stream. They also deliver leaflets for pizza, other restaurants and double glazing. I recycle the lot!

In reply to a post by burble:

With our BDUK FTTP, the only reason we knew it was coming was that gf found surveyor leaning on our bin, apparently the BT customers where contacted after it was deployed, everyone else it was by word of mouth, some never knew for couple of years!

I knew about Zzoomm, but I did not know about openreach until I checked for some reason.
There is a openreach van outside my place now, well outside next door, they must be having fibre, which don't shock me, they have to have something before other people. I thought Openreach would have removed the original copper cable since it is not used any more, so another cable on the pole going outside my window.

The Vodafone letter is a bit iffy, they say that their fibre is faster than BT, but you look at it carefully, and they are using FTTC as an example., so people who have no idea about the difference between FTTP and FTTC will think that BT FTTp is slower than Vodafone, even if it uses the same tech.

24 month contract again, providers really need to lower those contracts and not stick the price up for doing so, still makes me laugh at the download speed guarantee of 50Mb/s, if I was paying for fibre and for 100Mb/s, I would expect a better guarantee than that, but people will just suck in the propaganda.18Mb/s upload, that is pretty poor to be honest

Royal Mail deliver the post they are given to deliver. You can put those flyers into the recycling bin if they are something you're not interested in.

In reply to a post by jpm:

Royal Mail deliver the post they are given to deliver. You can put those flyers into the recycling bin if they are something you're not interested in.

Not, if they have my address on they go into the normal bin,

Companies need return on their investment …. relying on word of mouth just isn’t good enough.

I got an OpenReach flyer about 3 months after I had gone live

In reply to a post by bedrock:

I got an OpenReach flyer about 3 months after I had gone live

Interesting you say that, I was given an Openreach flyer by someone who was FTTP enabled back in 2019 although to date I have never heard anyone else say they have got one elsewhere.

Interesting, wasnt aware of this although I wonder how well it works in practice, and the implications noted on the page about missing things like council planning permission letters.

That's to scare you off.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

That's to scare you off.

So those kind of letters still arrive?

If it's important and directly relevant - like a planning application in your neighbour's property - then it will be addressed to you personally, and will be delivered.

If the council is doing a general leaflet drop - "we are consulting on the urban plan for your district", that sort of thing - then you might miss it. But there are other ways to find out when this sort of stuff happens.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Companies need return on their investment …. relying on word of mouth just isn’t good enough.

i don't have a problem with a leaflet, but i have had a load from Zzoomm, granted only one from any provider on Openreach at the moment.

In reply to a post by bedrock:

I got an OpenReach flyer about 3 months after I had gone live

That is a bit strange since Openreach is a network provider and not a broadband provider.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

That is a bit strange since Openreach is a network provider and not a broadband provider.

Not strange at all: Openreach has a big vested interest in shifting customers over from copper to fibre, as soon as fibre is available. Fibre has a lower fault rate, and in the long term they'll want to retire the copper network.

Having said that, right now they don't seem to have enough installation engineers to keep up with demand - although this problem likely varies between areas.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Not strange at all: Openreach has a big vested interest in shifting customers over from copper to fibre, as soon as fibre is available. Fibre has a lower fault rate, and in the long term they'll want to retire the copper network.

I wonder how they do this since that can't advertise individual providers. When FTTC came here, they put notices on them saying Fibre broadband is here which is what is confusing some people now as a lot of people think we already have fibre, after all Openreach posted notices on their cabinets telling us it is.

You say that they have a vested interest in shifting people from copper to fibre and this is the problem I have and why I admit I go on a bit. I am fine as I am, and I feel like it is another corporation/company/government department that is telling us what to do.

A few years ago I wanted Fibre here and said I go onto it as soon as I could, and don't get me wrong, I am glad it is here for people who want it. One of the things that have put me off is the amount of people that seems to be having more problems with this so-called superfast technology than I have with this old technology. A thread on the Zen forum here and others, posts on facebook and posts on other forums. What I have is working, could do with a better router, but it is working.

Having said that, right now they don't seem to have enough installation engineers to keep up with demand - although this problem likely varies between areas.

Well it did not take my next door neighbour long to get theirs installed, but the bloke was here for a while, and I was surprised that it was only one person, I thought someone climbing a pole would need someone with him just in case of an accident.
i have noticed that the cable Openreach uses is thicker than Zzoomm, i thought maybe because it has copper in it as well, if they are getting rid of copper that would not be the case and the old cable is still there, I think they should remove cables that are not in use.

I don't know how long it took for my brother to get Fibre as I don't know when it was available down there.

The other problem with having fibre is here is that would need to move the network around and have an Ethernet cable going around the living room.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Not strange at all: Openreach has a big vested interest in shifting customers over from copper to fibre, as soon as fibre is available. Fibre has a lower fault rate, and in the long term they'll want to retire the copper network.

I wonder how they do this since that can't advertise individual providers.

Sigh. By putting a leaflet through your door saying "FTTP is now available in your area - contact your ISP to upgrade".

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

You say that they have a vested interest in shifting people from copper to fibre and this is the problem I have and why I admit I go on a bit. I am fine as I am, and I feel like it is another corporation/company/government department that is telling us what to do.

Nestlé have a vested interest in selling Kit Kats. Hence they may put a leaflet through your door saying "Have a break - have a Kit Kat". This is just how the world we live in works. You can choose to ignore the message.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

i have noticed that the cable Openreach uses is thicker than Zzoomm, i thought maybe because it has copper in it as well, if they are getting rid of copper that would not be the case and the old cable is still there, I think they should remove cables that are not in use.

It might be a hybrid cable, or it might just be a thicker/stronger cable.

Unless you're in a "stop sell" area, the owner of the property could decide to switch back to copper at any time - or could request both copper and fibre to be active. Or the property could be sold tomorrow, to someone who decides they want copper service.

It would be very expensive for Openreach to have to resupply copper after removing it, so it makes sense to keep both options available for the time being. The difference in cost between the two types of cable is pennies; the cost of sending another engineer out to resupply copper would be hundreds of pounds.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

The other problem with having fibre is here is that would need to move the network around and have an Ethernet cable going around the living room.

We already know that you have your own personal reasons for not wanting FTTP - you don't need to keep reminding us. Try to remember that not everyone has the same criteria as you.

As we all know, its only a matter of time before everyone who has Openreach FTTP available to them will be forced over (or to an altnet) due to a stop-sell, so best be ahead of the game rather than bringing up the rear.

Actually, this was back in the 2019 timeframe for me also

In reply to a post by bedrock:

this was back in the 2019 timeframe for me also

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Sigh. By putting a leaflet through your door saying "FTTP is now available in your area - contact your ISP to upgrade".

Yes, they could do it that way, but I would have thought they would not be allowed to, after is that now an unfair advantage due to their size?

Nestlé have a vested interest in selling Kit Kats. Hence they may put a leaflet through your door saying "Have a break - have a Kit Kat". This is just how the world we live in works. You can choose to ignore the message.

But Nestlé will not try to force people to buy a kitkat

It might be a hybrid cable, or it might just be a thicker/stronger cable.

Unless you're in a "stop sell" area, the owner of the property could decide to switch back to copper at any time - or could request both copper and fibre to be active. Or the property could be sold tomorrow, to someone who decides they want copper service.

It would be very expensive for Openreach to have to resupply copper after removing it, so it makes sense to keep both options available for the time being. The difference in cost between the two types of cable is pennies; the cost of sending another engineer out to resupply copper would be hundreds of pounds.

Still seems a bit strange if they are getting rid of copper, I thought they would want to make it difficult for people to go back to Copper and a if it is s hybrid, then why is the original copper cable still up?
If we get more people having fibre from this pole it is going to look awful, have enough cables going past my bedroom window as it

We already know that you have your own personal reasons for not wanting FTTP - you don't need to keep reminding us. Try to remember that not everyone has the same criteria as you.

Granted, but lets see how much pushing my provider will do.

In reply to a post by dect:

As we all know, its only a matter of time before everyone who has Openreach FTTP available to them will be forced over (or to an altnet) due to a stop-sell, so best be ahead of the game rather than bringing up the rear.

This is the problem I have, getting fed up with being pushed into things i don't want or need.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

This is the problem I have, getting fed up with being pushed into things i don't want or need.

You may not want at the moment but you may be in a copper stop sell exchange area or soon to be as the copper network is being retired where FTTP Full Fibre is available.

https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/retiring-t...

Still seems a bit strange if they are getting rid of copper, I thought they would want to make it difficult for people to go back to Copper and a if it is s hybrid, then why is the original copper cable still up?

What is being ‘got rid of’ first will E sides and exchanges. Copper D sides, cabinets and their associated DSLAMs will be around a good while longer yet.

Leaving a copper pair to a property may well save the company money in the future, not having to put one back when different services are requested.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

getting fed up with being pushed into things i don't want or need.

Its 1 flyer from 1 Openreach ISP, I think you're just being rebellious, just like all the other things you complain about on a day to day basis.

Merry Christmas Adrian, and please don't complain that your employer is forcing you to have Christmas day off work 😎🤣

Edited by deleted (Sat 24-Dec-22 22:22:51)

In reply to a post by cymru123:

You may not want at the moment but you may be in a copper stop sell exchange area or soon to be as the copper network is being retired where FTTP Full Fibre is available.

https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/retiring-t...

According to the BT broadband availability checker I am not in a FTTP Priority Exchange area or a WLR Withdrawal area, according to the article you linked to which I have seen before it needs 75%, There are a lot of houses connected to our exchange and one of the larger estates don't have FTTP yet, so could be a while before we get the 75%. I am surprised that we are done first, I thought they would want to do the larger estate first, unless they think we are more likely to want FTTp here as this is supposed to be the more well off side of the city. It is complete rubbish, There are people on the breadline this side just like there are people who are well off on the other side.

I was going to wait until my contract is over to decide what to do, but i am having second thoughts, maybe I will just recontract with Plusnet, they have a 12-month contract which is a good price, it will take me to December next year

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

What is being ‘got rid of’ first will E sides and exchanges. Copper D sides, cabinets and their associated DSLAMs will be around a good while longer yet.

Leaving a copper pair to a property may well save the company money in the future, not having to put one back when different services are requested.

But if there is fibre available here, then surly if the property change owners, they will still go for fibre. If I was moving into a new house, I would go for FTTp if it was available and the price was right. I am not against FTTP apart from the switching of the old phone system, I think that is stupid, not it makes any difference to me as I don't use my landline, I have VoIP and have done so for years.

In reply to a post by dect:

Its 1 flyer from 1 Openreach ISP, I think you're just being rebellious, just like all the other things you complain about on a day to day basis.

But it won't be one flyer, I have not had one yet, but with ZZoomm here as well openreach will want to reach out to as many people as they can and will no doubt I will have multiple flyers, as I have said I already had one from Vodafone who I have never used for broadband. I am surprised that Plusnet have not got in touch.
Zzoomm must have put 5 through my door in the last 4 weeks, plus a visit.

Merry Christmas Adrian, and please don't complain that your employer is forcing you to have Christmas day off work 😎🤣

Merry Christmas type thing to you as well, I don't celebrate it myself, just a normal day for me as for time off work, this is my normal day off, so no extra days for me, well there is, but it is added to my holidays.
Back to it Tomorrow not that I feel like it I have had that bug that have been going around for a few weeks. Never mind, I have a week off on the 15th and at least now it will slow down a bit, well it should do as people should not have any money to spend.

Oh yeah, I don't mind my Employer forcing me to have a day off, I really don't

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by dect:

Merry Christmas Adrian

I don't celebrate it myself, just a normal day for me

Sorry, didn't realise, no offence meant.

But if there is fibre available here, then surEly if the property change owners, they will still go for fibre.

No, people seem to want choice, want it all cheap as chips, or just don’t want to upgrade even if they can. 😉 One size does NOT fit all

I have no wish to go fibre. It will have to be very cheap to persuade me to move. I suspect I am not alone.

In reply to a post by dect:

Sorry, didn't realise, no offence meant.


LOL, don't apologise, no offence taken, Just got no interest in it, working in retail don't help

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

No, people seem to want choice, want it all cheap as chips, or just don’t want to upgrade even if they can. 😉 One size does NOT fit all

But Fibre from some providers is the same price as FTTC, unless they go for now broadband, where the FTTC package seems to be one of the cheapest around at £21 a month. It is not price that is the problem for me, as I could go for Plusnet fibre at the same speed and slightly cheaper than I am on now. It is a hassle, but once Fibre is installed, it is only a new ONT.

But i agree, one size don't fit all, even if the telecoms company think it does.

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

I have no wish to go fibre. It will have to be very cheap to persuade me to move. I suspect I am not alone.

No, you are not alone, but how cheap is cheap? Plusnet has 74Mb/s for £26, they do a slower one as well but they don't put that on their site, I presume that is just for their customers changing from FTTC. i want to spend as little as possible, Popped up to see my brother yesterday they have just had 400Mb/s fibre installed by BT, it is pretty impressive, I connected my phone and things happened superfast, well sometimes, depending on where I was in the house and they have these mesh networking. I would not pay the amount they are paying, i did tell them they canmove the router if they wanted to so that made them happy as they have Ethernet on their computers, but now they have to use Wi-fi on them as the router is not in a good place.

The other half have Gigaclear, now that is super fast but again pretty expensive, but she has little choice in the matter.

I just can't doing with the hassle, my brother had hassle when they put the splice in the wrong place and someone had to go back to sort it and also sort out a problem on the pole.
My FTTc is working fine, Maybe if I was still having the problem I was having a few years agao i would think about FTTP.

but how cheap is cheap

Fibre offers me nothing I want to do that I can't do already and has more unreliable telephony in my area of frequent power cuts. So in order for me to have some Kellys muppet lashing it around my house it will have to be under £20.

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

but how cheap is cheap

Fibre offers me nothing I want to do that I can't do already and has more unreliable telephony in my area of frequent power cuts. So in order for me to have some Kellys muppet lashing it around my house it will have to be under £20.

Things may have been better under a previous Labour administration (we'll let others argue that point) but I'm not sure they would be better under any future Labour administration when its supporters are actively pursuing a race to the bottom.

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

I have no wish to go fibre. It will have to be very cheap to persuade me to move. I suspect I am not alone.

Then do nothing until you are contacted by your provider saying the copper service is being withdrawn. This could be a while away.

Yep

Although, for some large providers, "do nothing" can be a very expensive option as they hike you up to out-of-contract pricing. You could be better off switching now to a provider that doesn't do that.

I imagine that eventually Openreach *will* be allowed to force the stragglers off copper services, in a similar way to forced PSTN withdrawal, but that hasn't been mooted yet.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I imagine that eventually Openreach *will* be allowed to force the stragglers off copper services, in a similar way to forced PSTN withdrawal, but that hasn't been mooted yet.

It already happens today in a copper stop sell exchange area.
What happens is if FTTP is available and in a copper stop sell exchange then providers will only have FTTP products available to offer customers.
Also providers would need to migrate existing customers over to FTTP. Openreach have also increased prices to their copper based products.

Any copper based product would be rejected by Openreach.

Also to note if FTTP is available then the policy is FTTP products take a priority so providers may deliver the broadband service over FTTP for the same price.

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

Fibre offers me nothing I want to do that I can't do already and has more unreliable telephony in my area of frequent power cuts. So in order for me to have some Kellys muppet lashing it around my house it will have to be under £20.

I agree with you, I can do everything I need to do with the service I have and going by the way Talk Talk's experiment went we are not the only one. Talk Talk sent emails/letters to people saying they will be upgraded for free and a few people was not happy.
I know to some folks it may seem strange that there are people who are not interested in being put onto fibre, but sometimes if something works, why change it comes to mind.
You are right about the landline part, and some people may not the like the idea of their landline being connected to their router, after all it is another thing to go wrong, and we all know that broadband is not as reliable as the old telephone system, so many things to go wrong. As I have said before, makes no difference to me, I have been VoIP for years now.

Do you live in an open reach fibre area? Sadly, I do and I am still shocked that Openreach have put fibre here, but then in another way I am not, after all they seem to follow Alt networks around as if they are scared of losing out.
If I am at some point forced to change to Fibre then I would prefer to go with a Alt network, the problem is I don't want to pay £33 a month for a silly speed I don't need. If zzoomm done a slower speed at a cheaper price, I would prefer tjhat.

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

Fibre offers me nothing I want to do that I can't do already and has more unreliable telephony in my area of frequent power cuts.

The move to Digital Voice/VoIP/Internet calls is being done to all be that if you are on full fibre, fibre to the cabinet or on ADSLx.

From September 2023 a nationwide stop sell of traditional landline phone services comes into force meaning you will only be offered a Internet based voice service if you want to keep your home phone service and existing customers will be moved onto this in mass batches.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Although, for some large providers, "do nothing" can be a very expensive option as they hike you up to out-of-contract pricing. You could be better off switching now to a provider that doesn't do that.


I imagine that eventually Openreach *will* be allowed to force the stragglers off copper services, in a similar way to forced PSTN withdrawal, but that hasn't been mooted yet.

Force people to change by making their old service more expensive, that should be made illegal.
I could go for another contract with Plusnet for another 18 months, keep me on FTTC until June 2024, Plusnet have a small problem when trying to get people to FTTP as they don't offer a digital voice service, if I was with one of the other providers that offers a digital voice service, things may be different.

My sister-in-law was bombarded with stuff from BT pushing them to change once FTTP was available there, but BT have digital voice, my sister-in-law did not go for digital voice, decided to get rid of their landline, the fact that the landline is still working is a bit strange, but I presume at some point it will get cut off.

If I go to different providers now as a new customer, then they offer me FTTP, most it is possible to bypass it with a bit of mucking around, but some like BT will not allow me to even look at FTTC once I put my postcode in. Talk Talk give me FTTC only for some reason, so their database is not updated, not that I would ever use Talk Talk. Sky offers both FTTC and FTTP.

If I go to plusnet as a new customer they will offer both, but the strange this is the lowest FTTP they offer is 74Mb/s and yet as a customer they will offer me a 36Mb/s FTTP connection.

I am sure as time goes on, it may be more difficult to stay on FTTC if I change to a new provider, Now broadband only seem to offer FTTC services, so I am not sure what will happen there.

As I have said before, providers need to get away from the 24-month thing and not put prices up sky-high for short contracts, and changing providers is one of the problems with FTTP, unless a new provider just sends out a new ONT as well as a router, people will need someone to install a new ONT all the time

In reply to a post by cymru123:

It already happens today in a copper stop sell exchange area.
What happens is if FTTP is available and in a copper stop sell exchange then providers will only have FTTP products available to offer customers.
Also providers would need to migrate existing customers over to FTTP. Openreach have also increased prices to their copper based products.

Any copper based product would be rejected by Openreach.

Also to note if FTTP is available then the policy is FTTP products take a priority so providers may deliver the broadband service over FTTP for the same price.

But a lot is not the same price, well not for new customers anyway, what providers seem to be doing is pushing people to faster more expensive FTTp service and not offering a cheaper equivalent to a FTTC service.
Plusnet is to their existing customers, I can get a 36Mb/s FTTP service from them for a squid less than what I am paying for my FTTC service, but as a new customer, the lowest speed they show is 74Mb/s, most others I have had a look at as a new customer is 145mb/s. at silly prices

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

But a lot is not the same price, well not for new customers anyway, what providers seem to be doing is pushing people to faster more expensive FTTp service and not offering a cheaper equivalent to a FTTC service.
Plusnet is to their existing customers, I can get a 36Mb/s FTTP service from them for a squid less than what I am paying for my FTTC service, but as a new customer, the lowest speed they show is 74Mb/s, most others I have had a look at as a new customer is 145mb/s. at silly prices

Pricing strategies and bandwidth tiers on offer is up to the provider. I see BT, Sky offer a 36Mbps DL package on FTTP.
Remember some providers also offer social tariffs too.

Always also worth calling up the provider to negotiate a deal.

Edited by cymru123 (Mon 26-Dec-22 21:52:34)

In reply to a post by cymru123:

Pricing strategies and bandwidth tiers on offer is up to the provider. I see BT, Sky offer a 36Mbps DL package on FTTP.
Remember some providers also offer social tariffs too.

Always also worth calling up the provider to negotiate a deal.

As I have already put, I can get Full Fibre 36 for £21.,99 from plusnet, which is my provider and Full Fibre 74 for £27.99, so going to full fibre 36 would save me around £3 from what I am paying now for a 36Mb/s FTTC connection. I doubt phoning them will make them budge on that, maybe towards the end of my contract they may, but I still have 7 months on it. 24 months contracts on all FTTP services, I don't want to sign up for that length of time. As i have said, I don't really want to go to FTTP anyway

You dont want a more reliable delivery platform for your broadband?

If its price that bothers you, low speed FTTP can be cheaper than FTTC, probably related to the lower fault rate allowing it to be sold cheaper.

Only if you move home, or request a new line. If you have an existing service, the ‘stop sell’ area doesn’t turn you off.. That’s the point.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

You dont want a more reliable delivery platform for your broadband?

If its price that bothers you, low speed FTTP can be cheaper than FTTC, probably related to the lower fault rate allowing it to be sold cheaper.

As I have said before on here, I don't have reliability problems, well not for a long time anyway, my main problem is with my router, it is rubbish. If I can find my old TP-link I am going to put that back into play with the old open reach modem.

It is not that I can't afford £30 a month or £40 a month, I can., but I don't want to, I don't even want to pay what I am paying now which is around £24, which is why I am looking at Now broadband if they keep the prices how they have got them now until June next year.

plusnet offers a 36Mb/s FTTp connection for a squid less than what I am paying now, but again as I have said before, what is the point of going through the hassle of having someone drilling holes in walls, sticking a box inside and a slice box on the out just to get the same speed? Saying that I have two holes in the wall, one where the sky cable used to go through and the other where my old wireless broadband cable went, so maybe they have no need to drill another hole.

Adrian, an honest question

What was the point of this thread?

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Only if you move home, or request a new line. If you have an existing service, the ‘stop sell’ area doesn’t turn you off.. That’s the point.

As per Openreach site a copper product stop sell means:
* you won’t be able to buy our old copper products if Full Fibre is available at your premises, this includes Gfast, Superfast Fibre and Standard Broadband.

* applies to anyone who's signing up to a new contract, whether you're switching, upgrading or re-grading.

Note the word upgrading or re-grading. This includes when you renew contracts or make changes to your contract/speed profile.

* Some communications providers may choose to impose this sooner, so you might see this reflected in their product offerings.

This means that once FTTP is available to you, your current provider may want to move you onto FTTP. Especially as Openreach have incentives to the provider for doing so e.g cheaper wholesale prices

Edited by cymru123 (Tue 27-Dec-22 09:00:58)

I have also been wondering what is the point of Adrian's spam, it's been going on for months, the same old stuff again and again.

@jchamier

In addition to my previous reply see page 4 of https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/content/dam/cpp...

Stop sell is our process to encourage use of fibre products.

For Communications Providers
End customers won’t be able to buy old copper products if full fibre is available at their premises, this includes Superfast Fibre and Standard Broadband. This applies to end customers signing up to a new contract, whether they’re switching, upgrading or re-grading.


If a product is affected by stop sell, this won’t just mean no new supply, but other activities may also be impacted.

The OP has attracted so many replies that it must be of interest to some. Surely people don't bother to post in threads they have no interest in?

In reply to a post by dect:

Adrian, an honest question

What was the point of this thread?

It started off when I had a letter from Vodafone about me being able to get fibre broadband, a company I have never used for broadband and that I had it a few days after our road had fibre. It worked out okay, there is some good info posted by others,
Just wait now to see how many more flyers I get through the door once the Christmas and New year stuff is over. That is if Royal mail don't do any more strikes

In reply to a post by Realalemadrid:

I have also been wondering what is the point of Adrian's spam, it's been going on for months, the same old stuff again and again.

I suggest you look up the meaning of spam.

You should remember that Adrian has posted in another thread "I just don't like being pushed and the more I am pushed the more I will rebel and go a different way".

If he is true to that, the more people who complain about the totally irrelevant, space-grabbing and time-wasting content that he is posting the more he is going to put them in their place by posting further content from "The Secret Diaries of Adrian Mole Zyborg47".

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

It started off when I had a letter from Vodafone about me being able to get fibre broadband, a company I have never used for broadband and that I had it a few days after our road had fibre. It worked out okay, there is some good info posted by others,
Just wait now to see how many more flyers I get through the door once the Christmas and New year stuff is over. That is if Royal mail don't do any more strikes

The way I see it is that you've hopefully now been given information and how the transition to full fibre works, the stop sell process and the priority full fibre products have over copper based products (including fibre to the cabinet services) and as a separate piece the migration to All IP and Internet based voice services.

You may not agree or like the way the providers are wanting to move customers to their full fibre products and how the product restrictions of copper based products at present but you've at least started the conversation in your own head with input from others here which in turn will hopefully prepare you for future progression on the transition to full fibre.

In reply to a post by cymru123:

You may not agree or like the way the providers are wanting to move customers to their full fibre products

To be fair to Adrian, he wasn’t complying about a company that he is a customer of but a company that he has no dealings with, and no desire to have any dealings with.

In reply to a post by cymru123:

This means that once FTTP is available to you, your current provider may want to move you onto FTTP. Especially as Openreach have incentives to the provider for doing so e.g cheaper wholesale prices

But its not available to Adrian, and the whole thread is conjecture about what his current provider may or may not do, and what he may or may not do.

I gather from what you posted if you do absolutely nothing (e.g. let automatic price rises happen) and don’t choose to “recontract” or “upgrade” then its unclear if the provider will choose to cease/ terminate the service over FTTP. For most of us (with no sign of OR FTTP in town) this is likely a way off before we find out.

Edited by jchamier (Tue 27-Dec-22 14:26:28)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by cymru123:

This means that once FTTP is available to you, your current provider may want to move you onto FTTP. Especially as Openreach have incentives to the provider for doing so e.g cheaper wholesale prices

But its not available to Adrian, and the whole thread is conjecture about what his current provider may or may not do, and what he may or may not do.

I gather from what you posted if you do absolutely nothing (e.g. let automatic price rises happen) and don’t choose to “recontract” or “upgrade” then its unclear if the provider will choose to cease/ terminate the service over FTTP. For most of us (with no sign of OR FTTP in town) this is likely a way off before we find out.

@jchamier I was just stating Openreach's expectations when Openreach Full Fibre is available and their copper product stop sell policy and expectations as the OP stated that Openreach Full Fibre is available to them and that Openreach are upgrading the area.

As for those customers in a stop sell exchange that don't switch providers, recontract or upgrade and just stay out of contract apart from the increasing costs to the customer the service provider would want to move across to a full fibre product as the cost to them would also increase and having to support a product with a reducing customer base. So there will be a tipping point where the service provider will eventually just migrate them for free a bit like what has been done for those customers still on ADSLx where a VDSLx or G.fast service is available (fibre to the cabinet).
Openreach will also be monitoring and trying to get providers and customers to move to full fibre when a stop sell is implemented in an area, as stated before by also providing providers incentives to do so.

The whole point of the Salisbury trial is to work out the best way to do mass migrations to Full Fibre and what processes and support may need to be put into place to enable this along with getting rest of Industry ready for the transition to full Fibre (FTTP). This trial ends soon where the copper network will be terminated in Salisbury. Openreach have been working and trialing out different levels of managed installs as part of this

Edited by cymru123 (Tue 27-Dec-22 15:19:41)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I gather from what you posted if you do absolutely nothing (e.g. let automatic price rises happen) and don’t choose to “recontract” or “upgrade” then its unclear if the provider will choose to cease/ terminate the service over FTTP.

BT have previously offered "free upgrades" from ADSL to FTTC (even when FTTC offers lower speeds than ADSL!) and are likely to do the same with FTTC to FTTP. But you *can* still decline.

We are still a long way from the position where a CSP says "sorry, we're going to disconnect you on date X unless you change to this new service" (*). Existing customers are *far* more profitable than new customers, so it's much better to let them continue as-is rather than lose them completely.

CSPs won't terminate service until forced to by Openreach, and that in turn will only be when OFCOM permits them to do so - and that is not on the cards yet. The day will eventually come though.

Before then, I expect there will be lots of carrot and stick - i.e. massive increases in copper pricing, combined with special offers on FTTP pricing - for the refuseniks.

(*) Except for telephony of course. The PSTN *will* be turned off in Dec 2025, and that's all been agreed. If you refuse to plug in the router that your CSP sends you, or refuse to allow an engineer access to do it for you, then your phone line will go dead.

In reply to a post by cymru123:

The whole point of the Salisbury trial is to work out the best way to do mass migrations to Full Fibre and what processes and support may need to be put into place to enable this along with getting rest of Industry ready for the transition to full Fibre (FTTP). This trial ends soon where the copper network will be terminated in Salisbury. Openreach have been working and trialing out different levels of managed installs as part of this

This will be interesting to see how it goes, and if there is much ‘pushback’ as this thread implies

In reply to a post by candlerb:

BT have previously offered "free upgrades" from ADSL to FTTC (even when FTTC offers lower speeds than ADSL!) and are likely to do the same with FTTC to FTTP. But you *can* still decline.

We are still a long way from the position where a CSP says "sorry, we're going to disconnect you on date X unless you change to this new service" (*). Existing customers are *far* more profitable than new customers, so it's much better to let them continue as-is rather than lose them completely.

CSPs won't terminate service until forced to by Openreach, and that in turn will only be when OFCOM permits them to do so - and that is not on the cards yet. The day will eventually come though.

Before then, I expect there will be lots of carrot and stick - i.e. massive increases in copper pricing, combined with special offers on FTTP pricing - for the refuseniks.

(*) Except for telephony of course. The PSTN *will* be turned off in Dec 2025, and that's all been agreed. If you refuse to plug in the router that your CSP sends you, or refuse to allow an engineer access to do it for you, then your phone line will go dead.

@candlerb I believe some OFCOM consultation on this has been done back in 2020: https://www.ofcom.org.uk/consultations-and-statement...

Hence the policy notes under Openreach's copper withdrawal https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/retiring-t...

Snippit from OFCOM

Withdrawal of copper regulation would apply two years after Openreach gives
notification that it has completed ultrafast coverage of an exchange area. Notification could be
published when or after take-up of copper services is less than 10% of relevant premises in a
completed exchange, and only where measures are put in place to support vulnerable consumers.

The Salisbury trial will hopefully provide more information and potentially timelines but the stop sells are definitely driving towards this state

Edited by cymru123 (Tue 27-Dec-22 17:10:57)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

BT have previously offered "free upgrades" from ADSL to FTTC (even when FTTC offers lower speeds than ADSL!) and are likely to do the same with FTTC to FTTP. But you *can* still decline.

Is that BT Retail? Does sound sensible to offer people as many won’t be reading forums like this or proactively looking.

We are still a long way from the position where a CSP says "sorry, we're going to disconnect you on date X unless you change to this new service" (*). Existing customers are *far* more profitable than new customers, so it's much better to let them continue as-is rather than lose them completely.

That’s what I was thinking. It may cost a customer more money to stay and not re-contract, but each engagement with a customer is costly.

CSPs won't terminate service until forced to by Openreach, and that in turn will only be when OFCOM permits them to do so - and that is not on the cards yet. The day will eventually come though.

They will need to be able to eventually, but agreed, this isn’t yet defined.

(*) Except for telephony of course. The PSTN *will* be turned off in Dec 2025, and that's all been agreed. If you refuse to plug in the router that your CSP sends you, or refuse to allow an engineer access to do it for you, then your phone line will go dead.

Currently causing issues for friends of mine where they have different voice provider and data provider on the same copper!

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by cymru123:

The whole point of the Salisbury trial is to work out the best way to do mass migrations to Full Fibre and what processes and support may need to be put into place to enable this along with getting rest of Industry ready for the transition to full Fibre (FTTP). This trial ends soon where the copper network will be terminated in Salisbury. Openreach have been working and trialing out different levels of managed installs as part of this

This will be interesting to see how it goes, and if there is much ‘pushback’ as this thread implies

You might be interested in this research done by OFCOM as part of the trials: https://www.ofcom.org.uk/research-and-data/telecoms-...

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by candlerb:

BT have previously offered "free upgrades" from ADSL to FTTC (even when FTTC offers lower speeds than ADSL!) and are likely to do the same with FTTC to FTTP. But you *can* still decline.

Is that BT Retail?

Yes that's who I meant. There have been stories of ADSL->FTTC migrations on this forum.

Thanks for the link.

Post deleted by XGS_Is_On

In reply to a post by jchamier:

(*) Except for telephony of course. The PSTN *will* be turned off in Dec 2025, and that's all been agreed. If you refuse to plug in the router that your CSP sends you, or refuse to allow an engineer access to do it for you, then your phone line will go dead.

Currently causing issues for friends of mine where they have different voice provider and data provider on the same copper!

I guess they are in an area where FTTP is not available and they don't wish to cease xDSL on their line?

If FTTP (broadband only) was available and they had it successfully installed/activated then it would not be a problem to cease the xDSL and retain PSTN voice over copper for a while longer. However, in that scenario, I would imagine that it would not be possible to migrate the PSTN voice service to another provider after "stop sell" in September next year?

In reply to a post by Realalemadrid:

I have also been wondering what is the point of Adrian's spam, it's been going on for months, the same old stuff again and again.

Not much going on in the cesspit that is The Park perhaps. I say perhaps as I have no idea: I've no care for reading it.

ISPR comments are on exactly the same themes, equally repetitive and make it all the more confusing why they're being posted on websites devoted to broadband. Nothing personal to TBB.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

I guess they are in an area where FTTP is not available and they don't wish to cease xDSL on their line?

Correct. Alt-Net may appear during 2023 or 2024, but no sign of OR FTTP in town.

However, in that scenario, I would imagine that it would not be possible to migrate the PSTN voice service to another provider after "stop sell" in September next year?

I read elsewhere (main site, or ISPR) that the current voice provider will write to the customer saying they need to decide either to cancel FTTC broadband, or to switch voice to the broadband provider.

Doesn’t help when elderly fund the “BT phone line” and other family members fund the broadband. Of course it will be cheaper in total, just takes a while to explain the changes!

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

Not much going on in the cesspit that is The Park perhaps. I say perhaps as I have no idea: I've no care for reading it.

Park is a forum that isn’t visible to majority (including myself) so its really a closed-user-group for those that frequent.

Post deleted by 4M2

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

Not much going on in the cesspit that is The Park perhaps. I say perhaps as I have no idea: I've no care for reading it.

Got the equivalent of the sobriety coin for now being free of 'The Park' for over 4 months, had a little relapse in TTTS recently but still doing OK.

In reply to a post by cymru123:

The way I see it is that you've hopefully now been given information and how the transition to full fibre works, the stop sell process and the priority full fibre products have over copper based products (including fibre to the cabinet services) and as a separate piece the migration to All IP and Internet based voice services.

I knew about the stop sell process, I did forget that it is happening in two parts ,Voice and then copper. As I have said a few times, voice going to digital makes no odds to me, but it may and will to some people. I amy at some point even get rid of the VoiP system, I hardly use it these days, I only had it when I went to wireless broadband, so it was cheap/free for my Dad to phone me. My brother for some reason seems to phone me on it for some reason.
i realise that nothing lasts forever and that the copper system in the UK is very old, but I thought Openreach updated all the Exchanges a few years ago away from the old mechanical switching system for voice? That is how they managed to shrink our exchange down to virtually nothing and have the Traffic cops sharing part of the building

You may not agree or like the way the providers are wanting to move customers to their full fibre products and how the product restrictions of copper based products at present but you've at least started the conversation in your own head with input from others here which in turn will hopefully prepare you for future progression on the transition to full fibre.

I don't care how broadband is delivered to me, I had wireless broadband, but I felt a need for that as my old ADSL service was awful, 3Mb/s if I was lucky, sure the Wireless network was only 10, but still better, well for a while, and then they could not cope with the amount of users. My problem or problems are
(1)I don't really want people mucking around in the house, one reason why I will not have a smart meter,
(2) changing to another provider if I need to is a pain in the neck as someone have to come around again to stick an ONT in, unless they send it these days.
(3) long contracts
(4) been reading of too many people having problems with installations and thereafter of both Openreach fibre and Zzoomm, my service is working fine and have been for a long time, just need to sort out the router.
(5) higher price for no gain and with long contracts, have to put up with prices increasing and not being able to do anything about it for 2 years, 18 months is bad enough

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by cymru123:

This means that once FTTP is available to you, your current provider may want to move you onto FTTP. Especially as Openreach have incentives to the provider for doing so e.g cheaper wholesale prices

But its not available to Adrian, and the whole thread is conjecture about what his current provider may or may not do, and what he may or may not do.

I gather from what you posted if you do absolutely nothing (e.g. let automatic price rises happen) and don’t choose to “recontract” or “upgrade” then its unclear if the provider will choose to cease/ terminate the service over FTTP. For most of us (with no sign of OR FTTP in town) this is likely a way off before we find out.

What is not available to me? FTTp from open reach is available to me, it was turned on a couple of weeks ago, maybe 3, my next door neighbour have got it installed as I saw them last week doing it, and she has the tell tail sign and the splice box on her wall and the extra cable

In reply to a post by cymru123:

You might be interested in this research done by OFCOM as part of the trials: https://www.ofcom.org.uk/research-and-data/telecoms-...

This is very interesting, I noticed in it the part that says
fibre migrators had not been
aware that they needed to plug the phone into their router or that their phone was not functioning.

That have happened on FTTC, my next door neighbour the other side of those that have had Fibre, had Sky FTTC and was never told that they had to plug their phone into the router. This is the problem when information is not passed on. I ended up having to redo their extension so they could have the router where they wanted it.


Also this
Digital voice’10 suggested some form of new service, but could also be
misunderstood to mean a service they already had (e.g. cordless phone or a mobile
phone). ‘Full-fibre’ was reported to suggest ‘fast’ fibre, but again, some participants felt
that they already had ‘superfast’ broadband (FTTC), which they assumed was the same thing.


Now that was and is the fault of openreach, I remember when FTTC first came here, and we had posters on the cabinets saying fibre is here, so people are bound to believe that what they have is fibre. Most people I chatted to around that time said they were having fibre installed, they were shocked when I told them it was not fibre, but a hybrid system, some still believe they have fibre. I was chatting to someone a few weeks ago at work and they were saying about Zzoom and they thought they already had fibre, so I had to explain the difference between full fibre and FTTC. People are also getting confused about openrerach and zzoomm.


Good link, pretty interesting,

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I thought Openreach updated all the Exchanges a few years ago away from the old mechanical switching system for voice?

If by "a few years ago" you mean "in the 1980's", then yes This 40-year-old technology is obsolete, expensive to maintain, and would be incredibly expensive to replace - for a service that generates declining revenue, in the face of OTT IP-based communication.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

(2) changing to another provider if I need to is a pain in the neck as someone have to come around again to stick an ONT in, unless they send it these days.

If you are switching from Openreach to an Altnet, or from one Altnet to another Altnet, then yes you will need a new ONT. However, you will also need a new fibre connected to a different network, so this is definitely not a "self install" - nobody will send you an ONT.

If you are switching between ISPs on the same network (e.g. Openreach to Openreach, or Cityfibre to Cityfibre) then no new ONT is required. The new provider will likely ship you a router which you plug in yourself and connect to the existing ONT. That's no different to changing providers on FTTC.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

(4) been reading of too many people having problems with installations

I don't think you'll find that postings on a forum like this are representative. The vast majority are installed without hassle, and nobody bothers to post about these. Openreach's FTTP network now covers about 9 million properties, with a 27.45% take-up rate, so that's over 2 million happy customers.

Still, maybe the next house you move into will have FTTP and smart meters already installed - and then you won't have to worry about the installation hassle.

Edited by candlerb (Wed 28-Dec-22 15:12:37)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

The vast majority are installed without hassle, and nobody bothers to post about these.

Was extremely pleased with mine, even wrote in to senior management at Openreach to give the engineer some well deserved positive feedback.

How naive you are letting facts get in the way of personal, anecdotal and social media observations.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

If by "a few years ago" you mean "in the 1980's", then yes This 40-year-old technology is obsolete, expensive to maintain, and would be incredibly expensive to replace - for a service that generates declining revenue, in the face of OTT IP-based communication.

That long ago? Maybe in some exchanges, but I still remember in the late 90's the sound of the exchange in the building in what was our general post office, I am sure it was.
But then again thinking about it I had ADSL in 2000 and when it was updated to faster speeds i could not get any faster than 3Mb/s due to the cable going to the old exchange and then back on itself to the new one, so yes maybe the late 80's the exchange was changed here

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

If you are switching from Openreach to an Altnet, or from one Altnet to another Altnet, then yes you will need a new ONT. However, you will also need a new fibre connected to a different network, so this is definitely not a "self install" - nobody will send you an ONT.

If you are switching between ISPs on the same network (e.g. Openreach to Openreach, or Cityfibre to Cityfibre) then no new ONT is required. The new provider will likely ship you a router which you plug in yourself and connect to the existing ONT. That's no different to changing providers on FTTC.

I realise that switching between an Alt network and open reach network would need a different ONT and a different fibre as they are different networks after all, but I always thought that switching between different providers on the Openreach network would require a different ONT. I heard that from someone a few years ago who changed from one provider to another that someone replaced the ONT.
Oh yes, providers will still push their routers, time that was stopped and either they should ship a router that will work with all providers or tell people they have to supply their own. We had to supply our own modems in dial up days, it was ADSL that started this free modem/ Router stuff.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I don't think you'll find that postings on a forum like this are representative. The vast majority are installed without hassle, and nobody bothers to post about these. Openreach's FTTP network now covers about 9 million properties, with a 27.45% take-up rate, so that's over 2 million happy customers.

Even my sister-in-law had a small problem, first they put the splice box in the wrong place and then connection was lost on the second day, so when the Openreach bloke went back to sort out the connection problem, he moved the splice box to where it should have been.

Who say all these 2 million people are happy?

I was watching a video today of a fibre being spliced, it is amazing how they do that, I know it is a machine, but that tiny thin fibre looks so fragile, and it is amazing how much data is sent down there., it is interesting

Still, maybe the next house you move into will have FTTP and smart meters already installed - and then you won't have to worry about the installation hassle.

I have been here for over 24 years, so unless the other half buy a house in the city, and we decide to move in together which I can't see happening I expect to be here for a while longer

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I thought Openreach updated all the Exchanges a few years ago away from the old mechanical switching system for voice?

If by "a few years ago" you mean "in the 1980's", then yes This 40-year-old technology is obsolete, expensive to maintain, and would be incredibly expensive to replace - for a service that generates declining revenue, in the face of OTT IP-based communication.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

(2) changing to another provider if I need to is a pain in the neck as someone have to come around again to stick an ONT in, unless they send it these days.

If you are switching from Openreach to an Altnet, or from one Altnet to another Altnet, then yes you will need a new ONT. However, you will also need a new fibre connected to a different network, so this is definitely not a "self install" - nobody will send you an ONT.

If you are switching between ISPs on the same network (e.g. Openreach to Openreach, or Cityfibre to Cityfibre) then no new ONT is required. The new provider will likely ship you a router which you plug in yourself and connect to the existing ONT. That's no different to changing providers on FTTC.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

(4) been reading of too many people having problems with installations

I don't think you'll find that postings on a forum like this are representative. The vast majority are installed without hassle, and nobody bothers to post about these. Openreach's FTTP network now covers about 9 million properties, with a 27.45% take-up rate, so that's over 2 million happy customers.

Still, maybe the next house you move into will have FTTP and smart meters already installed - and then you won't have to worry about the installation hassle.

A very comprehensive response to a tiresome thread spoilt only be your penultimate paragraph. Of the 34 houses on my estate covered by the gigabyte voucher scheme, only for one was the service installed and operational with a single visit of an engineer. It was often at least two visits and in one case it was a staggering 14 visits over a nine month period before that eureka moment of three green lights.

I don't jump onto TBB to report such issues but I did escalate a situation when a Kelly engineer said "I don't get paid enough to carry out an installation that will take many hours to do". When an OR engineer came to do the install, he had to call for help and indeed the pair of them struggle for four hours to route the fibre cable. It was an excellent tidy install that required compliments to Openreach.

It becomes much more complicated where the installation requires cables to be run in communal hallways, which clearly would be visually unacceptable. Agreeing alternative routing is very time consuming. It introduces delays that go beyond contract expiry dates with ISPs that residents have. If you want to leave your ISP for pastures new, this becomes problematical. Certainly there is always an overlap of dual provisioning of services which is an unwelcomed expense. Does that make for a happy customer?

They go to use their landline and find it isn't working which opens up a new can of worms of what they should have done to retain their cherished held number, they had for decades, and can't understand why it cannot be reactivated for them. (Wasn't told about connecting the phone to the router instead of the master socket). They may have an excellent broadband connection, but most unhappy happy that they have been forced to accept a brand new telephone number. Instead of being enthralled with the wonders of Ultrafast broadband, it has been a big disappointment for them.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

one case it was a staggering 14 visits over a nine month period before that eureka moment of three green lights.

Was this your's by any chance? I vaguely remember someone saying about a long running full fibre connection issue to a brand new property that hadn't been completed when the CFP was being organised and never had a copper service registered to the new property although it did to a site office on the same plot of land. I may be thinking of someone else?

This sounds like the best approach to sorting out the stranglers

Openreach Trial New FTTP Option for Copper Lines with Complex Faults

When I had my strange sync problem and Plusnet got Openreach here, it was a Kelly engineer I had first and to be honest he did not seem to be that interested, saying well I don't know what is wrong, as it is working as it is leave it be. The second and third call-outs were Openreach engineers, and they were more interested in the problem and went back and forwards to the cabinet and even got the manhole up on the pavement. Granted they came to the same conclusion as the Kelly bloke, but at least they took more time. The last one that came said he has never seen a fault like it before, as even his equipment would not sync at the cabinet or in my home and yet an old Huawei was the only thing that would.
Somehow over the months it was sorted, I don't know when, but when I connected the router directly about 8 months or so after it worked fine.

So while I am not a fan of Openreach, the engineers I had here from them were good, they even re-crimped the cables in the junction box in the house, the old box where phones used to be wired in directly, before we could plug them in

In reply to a post by dect:

This sounds like the best approach to sorting out the stranglers

Openreach Trial New FTTP Option for Copper Lines with Complex Faults

What happens to the people who don't have a problem? It has been a long time since I had a problem with my broadband, well, on the openreach side anyway. Routers are my problem at the moment.

i do see a couple of things with this idea,
(1) Openreach may call everything a complex repair, even if it is not just to get people onto Fibre
(2) they could, I am not saying they will, but they could make faults happen just to get people to change.

It is a business after all, and they do things to make people jump, I work in a supermarket and I see what they do to get people to use Scan and shop and stuff like that

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by dect:

This sounds like the best approach to sorting out the stranglers

Openreach Trial New FTTP Option for Copper Lines with Complex Faults

What happens to the people who don't have a problem?

I think he was implying (jokingly) that there might be some extra "degradation" with the copper in those areas. A bit more water ingress into the joints than normal; intermittent faults which mysteriously appear and disappear; the neighbours who already have FTTP start using some very old TV sets; that sort of thing.

In reply to a post by dect:

This sounds like the best approach to sorting out the stranglers

Walk on by? Something better change? Let me down easy? No mercy? Down in the sewer? Nuclear device?

There seem to be no end of possible options there.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

one case it was a staggering 14 visits over a nine month period before that eureka moment of three green lights.

Was this your's by any chance? I vaguely remember someone saying about a long running full fibre connection issue to a brand new property that hadn't been completed when the CFP was being organised and never had a copper service registered to the new property although it did to a site office on the same plot of land. I may be thinking of someone else?

Yep, I was involved in that one. Frustratingly I could see from day one what was required and feed all the information to the ISP but sadly the info never seemed to reach the guys who were assigned to get the service in. When it finally dawned on Openreach what was actually needed, it was a model of efficiency for a non-standard installation.

In reply to a post by dect:

This sounds like the best approach to sorting out the stranglers

Openreach Trial New FTTP Option for Copper Lines with Complex Faults

Sorry guys I did mean stragglers

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

It is a business after all

Spot on, lets hope people remember that.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I think he was implying (jokingly) that there might be some extra "degradation" with the copper in those areas. A bit more water ingress into the joints than normal; intermittent faults which mysteriously appear and disappear; the neighbours who already have FTTP start using some very old TV sets; that sort of thing.

That is what I more or less said above.
(1) Openreach may call everything a complex repair, even if it is not just to get people onto Fibre
(2) they could, I am not saying they will, but they could make faults happen just to get people to change.


i doubt very much if many people will be using a old TV and I don't know why you think that would make a difference, i had a CRT TV when we had ADSl and it did not affect the broadband.

But i would not be surprised if all of a sudden I started having problems with my broadband, we will wait and see.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

It is a business after all

Spot on, lets hope people remember that.

Still don't mean that we have to do what they want,supermarkets have been trying to get me to use scan and shop and self scans and have their loyalty card, which I refuse to do. Granted i do use self scans if I only have a couple of items. My energy company have tried to push smart meters onto me, again I refuse, but to be fair to Octopus they have not pushed too hard, yet.

The same with Openreach my provider, I will change to Fibre when I ready, not when they want me to.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I will change to Fibre when I ready, not when they want me to.

Hopefully they will discontinue their copper services for those who have Openreach full fibre available and then leave it up to the customer to decide what they want to do.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

i doubt very much if many people will be using a old TV and I don't know why you think that would make a difference

Then you must have missed the story I was alluding to:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/09/18-mon...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54239180

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

i doubt very much if many people will be using a old TV and I don't know why you think that would make a difference

Then you must have missed the story I was alluding to:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/09/18-mon...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54239180

Was such a great story and just shows how electrical interference can effect the copper based network.

In reply to a post by dect:

Hopefully they will discontinue their copper services for those who have Openreach full fibre available and then leave it up to the customer to decide what they want to do.

I doubt that will happen for a while and if they do, it may send people to another network if there is one available, i have read that openreach is mindful that it may happen.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Then you must have missed the story I was alluding to:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/09/18-mon...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54239180

Good grief, I am surprised it cause that much of a problem, the TV must have had a fault, as I said i have an old CRT set and it never caused a problem, with ADSl, I don't know if it will with VDSL as the TV was taken out of service a long time ago, to be honest it should be dumped, it is up here in the way along with my old Plasma.
Christmas Tree Lights, yes, we had problems a few years ago with a neighbour across the road when ever they switch their lights on outside the house a few people lost sync , it took a few days before the problem was sourced. My service did not lose sync, but it did slow down.

They have different lights now as there have been no problems for the last 3 years, still amazes me that people have the outside of their houses lit up with these lights considering the price of electric theses day

The topic is headed "so it starts". When is it going to finish?

When people stop posting?

Footfall shows it to be one of the recent topics provoking most interest.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

When people stop posting?

Footfall shows it to be one of the recent topics provoking most interest.

LOL.


Ok, I had a look at some broadband switch sites just to be nosy and see what is available, some only show FTTC connections, while others do show FTTP and FTTC. I would have thought they would all show FTTP connections

I also notice Talk Talk, show only FTTC for my area, not that I would ever go with Talk Talk, but just nosy.

Just being nosy at what is available, Now broadband seems to be the best for what I want at a decent price at the moment, but that could change in 7 months.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

The topic is headed "so it starts". When is it going to finish?

Totally agree but you know what its like over Xmas and New Year, [censored] all on the TV so will watch any old [censored], well this is the same.

I do wish it would finish, I don't think I have ever seen such a load of repetitive, regurgitated rubbish, not just on TBB but also other forums ( or is it fora?)

Edited by Realalemadrid (Fri 30-Dec-22 19:31:26)

Why do so many people keep this thread going by posting that they want it to end?

In reply to a post by dect:

Totally agree but you know what its like over Xmas and New Year, [censored] all on the TV so will watch any old [censored], well this is the same.

I did ask a genuine question, but people seem intent on carrying on with why the thread is still going.

I will ask it again, why is it that some providers and broadband switching sites still don't offer FTTp for this area? I don't mean Now broadband as they don't do fibre, but others that do.

Also, something else i thought about, the CBT on the poles, what happens if they run out of ports on it or have they put one on that will serve all people from that pole and since we have Openreach and zzoomm from that same pole is there two CBT on the pole one for each provider? There certainly seems to me than one thing on the top of the pole.

These are genuine questions, while I may not be interested in getting fibre at the moment, I do find the technology amazing, all that data going down one tiny glass tube.

And all your genuine questions have already been answered elsewhere on this Forum. You can probably find the answers if you use the Search facility.

Edited by GonePostal (Sat 31-Dec-22 01:53:28)

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

And all your genuine questions have already been answered elsewhere on this Forum. You can probably find the answers if you use the Search facility.

I doubt those two have, but fine, I will do a duck duck go search online, it doesn't bother me.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

And all your genuine questions have already been answered elsewhere on this Forum. You can probably find the answers if you use the Search facility.

I doubt those two have, but fine, I will do a duck duck go search online, it doesn't bother me.

Why use duck duck go when the Forum has its own dedicated search facility? That is where the exact questions you put have already been answered many times.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I will ask it again, why is it that some providers and broadband switching sites still don't offer FTTp for this area? I don't mean Now broadband as they don't do fibre, but others that do.

As for comparison sites, I tend to find they take some time to update when a new provider or offering becomes available. Also comparison sites don't really do an specific property availablity check so they won't know about any providers product restrictions or product priorities for the said property.

As for some providers not yet showing full fibre product offerings to you, this depends on whether that provider is signed up to provide such broadband products over the infrastructure providers full fibre network in that area/headend exchange. It may take some time for providers to then be able to offer you such products if it's in their portfolio.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Also, something else i thought about, the CBT on the poles, what happens if they run out of ports on it or have they put one on that will serve all people from that pole and since we have Openreach and zzoomm from that same pole is there two CBT on the pole one for each provider? There certainly seems to me than one thing on the top of the pole.

Different full fibre infrastructure providers will use their own CBTs or connection points. If capacity is then full then an incremental build is done and another CBT installed on the pole depending on space.

In reply to a post by cymru123:

Thank you for the rply and I have had a look with Duck Duck and have found some answers from different site, mainly ISP review

As for comparison sites, I tend to find they take some time to update when a new provider or offering becomes available. Also comparison sites don't really do an specific property availablity check so they won't know about any providers product restrictions or product priorities for the said property.

some will ask for the property number, others don't

As for some providers not yet showing full fibre product offerings to you, this depends on whether that provider is signed up to provide such broadband products over the infrastructure providers full fibre network in that area/headend exchange. It may take some time for providers to then be able to offer you such products if it's in their portfolio.

I know some don't offer FTTP like now broadband, but even Talk Talk don't offer me FTTP, not that I would go with Talk Talk, but I was just being nosy, so I thought it may have been something to do with their database not being updated, I presume the Christmas holidays and stuff like that would slow things down a bit, like it does with most things. Still impressed with how quick Vodafone got a leaflet to me., they were really quick on the ball.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Different full fibre infrastructure providers will use their own CBTs or connection points. If capacity is then full then an incremental build is done and another CBT installed on the pole depending on space.

I thought there would be two CBT on the pole, but I don't remember seeing two, but there must be, I will have a better look tomorrow if I remember. It was dark going to work and dark coming home, so I could not see anything today.
i have come up with something in my search that it is possible to run out of connectors on a CBT, but they will normally put a CBT on that is large enough to handle all users on that pole. I think there are about 9 users on the pole my line is connected to.

I had a look at a video of this FTTP route from the exchange and it seems it uses the same fibre that is used for FTTC a certain way and then split off, that is the Openreach version not the Alt network. Seems to be a lot of splicing involved and not one long bit of fibre which I thought it may be.
As I have said before i think the technology is amazing, certainly for Openreach, since they are normally behind in many things, but their network is not as good as the Alt network that is here.

As i have said before i am in no rush to go FTTP, but if I did, I would like to go to the Alt network we have, the problem is 24-month contract and I don't need the speed they have, if they had a lower speed like say 74Mb/s and lowered to price to suit then that would be better.

As I said thanks for the reply, i do find it amazing how much data can be sent down a thin tube of glass

You have a good evening if you are celebrating the new year and have a great new year.

Adrian

Have you ever researched logorrhea?

i do find it amazing how much data can be sent down a thin tube of glass

It isn’t a a tube, it is solid

Mostly. But there is also hollow core fibre - with higher performance…

https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2020/11/hollow-co...

Microsoft recently bought Lumenisity the spinoff formed from the Uni of Southampton research team to commercialise the product:

https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2022/12/09/microsof...

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

i do find it amazing how much data can be sent down a thin tube of glass

It isn’t a a tube, it is solid

That is true, it is a strand of glass fibre.

I had a look at the pole this morning and there are two CBTs on it, One with conection points sticking out, I think that must be the BT one and one rectangle one which I presume is the Zzoomm one, I presume tit is a different make

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Mostly. But there is also hollow core fibre - with higher performance…

https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2020/11/hollow-co...

Microsoft recently bought Lumenisity the spinoff formed from the Uni of Southampton research team to commercialise the product:

https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2022/12/09/microsof...

I remember hearing about that and yes it had to be Microsoft that buys it.

Openreach dimension an area on the basis of a CBT port per SDU ( single dwelling unit ) , and in the main replicate the ‘demand’ placed on the copper infrastructure, so using a simple overhead service ( telegraph poles ) example,
A pole at the head of a cul-de-sac , services 12 SDU with ‘copper’ , then a 12 port CBT will suffice, if there were 14 SDU , a 12 and a 4 port CBT would be needed , if it were 8 SDU it would still be a 12 port CBT as although 8 port CBT are available, policy would be to use a 12 port and not intentionally max out an 8 port, if it were 7 SDU an 8 port is OK., there is always at least one spare CBT port on 4 or 8 way , a 12 port CBT , where the demand is exactly 12 is the only exception to this rule.

Other operators don’t necessarily have the same ‘universal service’ outlook, so if they had a certain size network to play with , using the same example , they could provide their equivalent of an 8 port , even though the potential demand is 12 , safe in the knowledge they are unlikely to ever get 100% take up , and even if they did get 8 customers on the CBT , any order from a potential 9th customer, they can simply refuse connection, something BT ( using OR ) as the USO provider cannot do, that’s not to say Alt Nets don’t dimension their networks for 100% of addresses, just that they don’t have to if it doesn’t fit in with any overall network size, OR network will always be ‘big enough’ to satisfy any demand , although if an area was dimensioned , built , and then someone builds a block of flats , that demand couldn’t be ‘serviced’ , but would be a ‘newsite’ anyway and picked up under that policy

Edited by Iniltous (Sun 01-Jan-23 10:01:17)

Thanks for the info Iniltous, there are around ten house served by the pole outside my house, three of them already on Fibre, one BT and the other others Zzoomm, might be four, but I can't see where I am.


I would be surprised if ZZoomm did not make sure they had enough capacity on the CBT, but with Openreach Fibre here as well, I doubt Zzoomm or openreach will get to full capacity on their CBTs.

i must admit I thought more people would have gone for FTTP when it went live, but then I suppose some like me are still under contract and Openreach FTTP have only been going for a few weeks. Maybe once the Holidays are over, people may start changing. Depends how pushy their providers are. Looking at what Wi-fi is available on my phone I notice there is a mixture of mainly BT, but also Sky and a Talk Talk, which is new as I have never seen a Talk Talk Wi-fi show up around here before.
The two Zzoom router show up which surprises me as I have heard the wi-fi on their router is awful and yet the one is across the road and the other is two doors down.

No flats up this road, there is in the next road down, little two stories flats.

We will see what happens in the next few months, I have half a year to decide what to do, but as I have said before I need to sort out the network first, I have a week off work in a couple of weeks I will take the TV extension sockets off and see if I can past a cable down there, the TV coax will have to stay there as the house is rented, but I can change the sockets if need be, just put them back on if/when I move. Social housing are a bit more forgiving than private landlords, that is how I could have a smart thermostat installed.

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

if there were 14 SDU, a 12 and a 4 port CBT would be needed, if it were 8 SDU it would still be a 12 port CBT as although 8 port CBT are available, policy would be to use a 12 port and not intentionally max out an 8 port, if it were 7 SDU an 8 port is OK., there is always at least one spare CBT port on 4 or 8 way, a 12 port CBT, where the demand is exactly 12 is the only exception to this rule.

Thanks for explaining, It accounts for the size of CBT I got which was previously a mystery.

In reply to a post by dect:

Thanks for explaining, It accounts for the size of CBT I got which was previously a mystery.

so this thread does have its uses

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

so this thread does have its uses

I'm glad I got something interesting out of 120+ posts in this thread during the xmas and New Year shutdown

We have had Brsk in the area, for the last 6 weeks, putting up the necessary fibre cables for FTTP. One knock on the door and presented with a flyer and another flyer through the letterbox a couple of weeks later. Not sure how anyone could be notified otherwise. I think I'll march down to Papa Johns and Domino's and demand they stop putting flyers in our letterbox.

No other FTTP supplier available as yet.

You have a choice for your own connections and that seems good.

Brsk are asking £22/m for a 100/100 connection but I'm happy paying £34 for 40/10 inc evening and weekend calls. I couldn't do with the hassle of saving money.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

We have had Brsk in the area, for the last 6 weeks, putting up the necessary fibre cables for FTTP. One knock on the door and presented with a flyer and another flyer through the letterbox a couple of weeks later. Not sure how anyone could be notified otherwise. I think I'll march down to Papa Johns and Domino's and demand they stop putting flyers in our letterbox.

No other FTTP supplier available as yet.

You have a choice for your own connections and that seems good.

Brsk are asking £22/m for a 100/100 connection but I'm happy paying £34 for 40/10 inc evening and weekend calls. I couldn't do with the hassle of saving money.

I don't have a problem with leaflets as long as it is not a load, Zzoomm have sent a few over the last few weeks I don't need a leaflet from then every week saying Zzoomm is available, I flipping know it is. they also sent someone around, but I was at work, total waste of time sending people around in the daytime unless they are trying to get the housewife that stays at home to sign up.
i know that is a bit sexist, but you know what I mean

i also realise that people move, and they may want to tell the new people that Fibre is available, but not one a week.

As for the leaflet from vodafone it was just a, I don't know, a light-hearted thing, it seemed very quick and from a company that have never sent any leaflet here since I lived here. Also most leaflets don't have my address on it, i had one today through the post from dominoes, well I think that is who it was from as soon as I saw pizza I chucked it in the bin,

I like choice and it is good that we have choice, but my choice is to stay where I am, at least until the middle of the year.

£22 for 100/100 is very good, but if i change to FTTP I am not saying money, unless I go for plusnet 36Mb/s FTTp and that is £21.99, so a saving at the moment of £2.59 a month, so is it really worth the hassle of getting fibre installed with the same speed I get now for a saving of £2.59 a month? I can save that in other ways, like having one less pint a month, That is a price of a pint in Spoons around here, £3 a pint if i go to a local pub that brews their own beer.


If I went to a higher speed, lets say Plusnet's Full Fibre 74, that will cost me £27.99, so no money saved there at all.
If i wait until my contract was over I could go to Zzoomm, 150/150 at £33 a month, again no money saved but a higher speed I don't really need.


So you saying "I'm happy paying £34 for 40/10 inc evening and weekend calls. I couldn't do with the hassle of saving money." is just trying to wind me up because If you change to BRSK you save a fair bit of money and get a faster speed. If I change, I save a piddly amount for the same speed and hassle of having Fibre installed.
See the difference?

But like you I don't need the faster speed. I only moved to FTTC during covid restrictions as the upload was terrible for video calls.

The £22 doesn't include a landline or evening/weekend calls.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

But like you I don't need the faster speed. I only moved to FTTC during covid restrictions as the upload was terrible for video calls.

The £22 doesn't include a landline or evening/weekend calls.

I presume you mean you moved to FTTP, not FTTC.

If the faster FTTC speed was available to me I don't think I would have bothered unless the price was ok,
I have to admit I was downloading some games yesterday and it was taking a long time and affected Disney+ streaming, I thought then maybe it would be nice to have better broadband, but then I just read instread. It is only once in a blue moon I have that problem and the only reason I downloaded a game is that I had a problem with it crashing, so I thought maybe it was corrupted so reinstalled it from steam.

But that did not put me in the mind to get FTTP, I could have waited until went to bed and got the computer to do it while I was asleep

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

If the faster FTTC speed was available to me I don't think I would have bothered unless the price was ok,

Many of my colleagues before the pandemic were on ADSL2+ with say 16 to 18 Mbps download, and under 1 Mbps upload. This was all they needed to remote work with email etc, but once we all started video calling during the pandemic, many upgraded to FTTC, often the 40/10 wholesale product, giving somewhere around 35 Mbps download, and somewhere from 3 to 8 Mbps upload depending on quality of copper and distance.

But that did not put me in the mind to get FTTP, I could have waited until went to bed and got the computer to do it while I was asleep

Then when its time to turn off copper in your road, you can switch from 40/10 FTTC to 40/10 FTTP and not notice any difference

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Many of my colleagues before the pandemic were on ADSL2+ with say 16 to 18 Mbps download, and under 1 Mbps upload. This was all they needed to remote work with email etc, but once we all started video calling during the pandemic, many upgraded to FTTC, often the 40/10 wholesale product, giving somewhere around 35 Mbps download, and somewhere from 3 to 8 Mbps upload depending on quality of copper and distance.

I could not cope with ADSL speeds, certainly not the speed I had here and even if it was a bit faster, I could stream, but in lower quality, but if there are people happy with ADSL then fine.

Then when its time to turn off copper in your road, you can switch from 40/10 FTTC to 40/10 FTTP and not notice any difference

It is more of the hassle of having people here, drilling holes, running cables around and that sort of thing, also changing the network around for no gain.

No we moved from ADSL2+ (16/0.8) to VDSL (FTTC) (40/10)

As stated by another poster, ADSL was adequate but then covid struck and Zoom/Teams calls were nearly impossible due to the lack of upload speed.

You bang on about your ADSL being awful and your current setup and speed is great and you don't require anything faster.

Our ADSL was great, our current setup is a lot faster and we don't need anything faster but sometimes things change.

Other users, like you, may have had rubbish ADSL, and due to the long copper part of their line their FTTC may have been awful as well so the next step is FTTP, which usually means much faster speeds whether they require it or not. Not having copper makes abig difference.

Ah right, I see, I suppose if you are close to the exchange then ADSL could be ok depending on what you are doing, I know a household still on dial up and one household that only recently moved from dial up., I put them on a mobile network. The ones that are still on dial up will hopefully be going to FTTP soon, as they have been told it will be available at the start of this year.
I changed from ADSL to a wireless network because it promised me better quality broadband, and also I wanted to get off the openreach network at the time. Sadly it only lasted for just 3 years, i moved after my two-year contract as they could not cope with the amount of users, By that time FTTC was here, plusnet were the only ones to give me a quick appointment as it was at the time when you had to have open reach come to sort it out, now FTTC is self installed. If Allpay had managed to keep up with the amount of users and put the price down a bit for a faster speed, I may still be with them now. I had 10Mb/s, but it cost me £29 a month.

Now things are a bit different, while I am better off money wise as I have got myself out of debt, I am now more careful with it and with the way the cost of living is going up I need to look at my monthly out goings. One reason why I am getting rid of Audible, once I picked the last three books, I can keep the books once they are picked, but I don't use it a lot., then maybe Netflix as I don't use that very often either.

I am not saying I will never go for FTTP, at some point I doubt I will have a choice, just in no rush, apart from these last couple days when trying to download a game to reinstall, and it did affect my streaming I do everything i need to do on what I have now.
The problem is I reformatted the game drive, now I have to download a load of them, for some reason they are not downloading at the speed they are supposed to, so even a faster FTTP connection is not going to make a difference.

i have around 6 months before I have to make any move, I got a few other things to sort out , so changing broadband at the moment is not important.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

The problem is I reformatted the game drive, now I have to download a load of them, for some reason they are not downloading at the speed they are supposed to, so even a faster FTTP connection is not going to make a difference.

Most internet services are rate limited, to provide more users with a service at the same time. The likes of Microsoft / Google downloads are much faster as they have installed capacity for many many more concurrent users.

Also any FTTP you choose does not need to be faster than FTTC, it could just be the actual 40/10 (allowing for TCP overheads) rather than the "upto 40/10" due to the way DSL works over copper. So no longer distance issues.

I understand Openreach offer the same options, but AltNets will do whatever they believe sells. The AltNet building here are offering only one service.

I know other people who are in areas where openreach have enabled FTTP and some have said that they feel like their broadband on FTTC have slowed down since as if to push them onto FTTP, I don't feel like that have happened here, My broadband is not behaving any different now than it did before. If providers did start to use some system to slow down people's FTTC broadband there would be a bit of a stink I think, it is not impossible, we used to have traffic management years ago.

The download did speed up for a bit, so I presume there is a lot of people downloading from the steam servers.

you know what is going to come, but i will say it anyway, If i go to FTTP and stay at the same speed I am on now then what is the point in going through the hassle of having FTTP installed? Please don't say reliability as my broadband is reliable.

Plusnet have a 36Mb/s full fibre, but they only seem to offer it to existing customers, that is £21.99 a month, the slowest one they seem to offer to new customers is 75Mb/s at £23.99, but as an existing customer IF I wanted to go to 74Mb/s I would have to pay £27.99. So much for loyalty, er?

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I know other people who are in areas where openreach have enabled FTTP and some have said that they feel like their broadband on FTTC have slowed down since as if to push them onto FTTP, I don't feel like that have happened here, My broadband is not behaving any different now than it did before. If providers did start to use some system to slow down people's FTTC broadband there would be a bit of a stink I think, it is not impossible, we used to have traffic management years ago.

The download did speed up for a bit, so I presume there is a lot of people downloading from the steam servers.

you know what is going to come, but i will say it anyway, If i go to FTTP and stay at the same speed I am on now then what is the point in going through the hassle of having FTTP installed? Please don't say reliability as my broadband is reliable.

Plusnet have a 36Mb/s full fibre, but they only seem to offer it to existing customers, that is £21.99 a month, the slowest one they seem to offer to new customers is 75Mb/s at £23.99, but as an existing customer IF I wanted to go to 74Mb/s I would have to pay £27.99. So much for loyalty, er?

It's deja-vu all over again.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

It's deja-vu all over again.

I know. I think it's time to stop feeding the troll.

Bit harsh. Some people just need educating.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Some people just need educating.

Be our guest.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Bit harsh. Some people just need educating.

Educating on what? I know about FTTP, I know that it is faster, I realise that taken as a whole it is more reliable than FTTC, but then again there are plenty of people who have problems with FTTP as well. I know that at some point it will become the only thing available to order as FTTC will not be sold, but that time is not now, but it seems as if some ISPs seems to think it is.

Above I said what is the point of me changing to a FTTP service of the same speed and yet no one have said of any advantage to me, and this is the thing, if I am going to go through the hassle of having holes drilled though my walls, a box stuck inside sucking more energy, no matter how small, then it needs to benefit me, not openreach, not my neighbours, but me. Bearing in mind, as I said the reliability of my FTTC connection for me is great and that is the important side, for me.
If over people are having problems with FTTC and want to change then fine, if I was having problems with FTTC then I would think about changing.

So what are you going to educate me on?

As for other people, you know what this thread is about, if you don't like it then don't read it, simple as that.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Above I said what is the point of me changing to a FTTP service of the same speed and yet no one have said of any advantage to me,

I’m sure I’ve said this before in this thread, the benefit to YOU is:

Keeping your internet service when OR switch off copper.

Until then you can ignore FTTP from any provider.

Nobody is ever going to give you a reason that you feel is legitimate, so there's no point trying. Stay on FTTC for as long as you like, but please consider not posting about your decision every time the topic comes up, it's nearly as bad as Max constantly pasting in their FTTC stats in unrelated topics.

Eventually you will have no choice if you want to keep a fixed line connection - either whatever ISP you have for FTTC will not re-contract you on a copper service, or Openreach will withdraw it.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Some people just need educating.

Be our guest.

Pass the popcorn, dect, and cook some more.

Any idea what proportion of posts in the Fibre Broadband section in the last, say, 2 weeks have been from a single poster? I rather enjoying reading the responses, mind.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

Any idea what proportion of posts in the Fibre Broadband section in the last, say, 2 weeks have been from a single poster? I rather enjoying reading the responses, mind.

If only it was as simple as allowing someone to get it out of their system, once and for all.

The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks 😎

Edited by deleted (Sun 08-Jan-23 22:52:25)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

]
’m sure I’ve said this before in this thread, the benefit to YOU is:

Keeping your internet service when OR switch off copper.

Until then you can ignore FTTP from any provider.

I realise that at some point I will have to change and maybe better to get it over with now, well not now, but after March when the prices change. But it is the hassle that puts me off, as I have said before I don't care how my broadband gets to me, well to a certain degree, I went wireless for a while, that was different, not that anyone was really in the house for long as they just chucked the cable through a hole in the wall, on the roof yeah. I suppose that hole could be used for Fibre

Problem is, can you ignore it from any provider? I look at different providers now just to be nosy and up come FTTP, FTTC is nowhere to be seen or hidden, but normally nowhere to be seen. I think the only reason Plusnet offers me FTTC on renewal is because I have a voice service and Plusnet don't offer digital voice

In reply to a post by jpm:

Nobody is ever going to give you a reason that you feel is legitimate, so there's no point trying. Stay on FTTC for as long as you like, but please consider not posting about your decision every time the topic comes up, it's nearly as bad as Max constantly pasting in their FTTC stats in unrelated topics.

Eventually you will have no choice if you want to keep a fixed line connection - either whatever ISP you have for FTTC will not re-contract you on a copper service, or Openreach will withdraw it.

No one is going to give me a reason because there is no reason, it is no good saying I need to be educated and stop at that. Educate me.
But you can't because I have already come out with the reasons to go over to FTTP, which means i already know the reasons.

I don't like being pushed and I feel like i am being pushed to do things, not just fibre, but other things, like when shopping, pushed to use self scans and scan and shop. Pushed to use card payments even the drinks machine at work is contactless now, not that I use it. What happens when the card reaches the limit of contactless payments, and you have to put a pin in? it don't work as there is no pinpad, I have also been told that is the same on our buses as well, what a stupid idea.

Anyway, going on a bit of a ramble, I think some of this is to do with my anxiety, something which I was diagnosed with 7 years ago at 50 years old.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I know other people who are in areas where openreach have enabled FTTP and some have said that they feel like their broadband on FTTC have slowed down since as if to push them onto FTTP, I don't feel like that have happened here, My broadband is not behaving any different now than it did before. If providers did start to use some system to slow down people's FTTC broadband there would be a bit of a stink I think, it is not impossible, we used to have traffic management years ago.

I can understand your reasons for not wanting to upgrade to FTTP but the conspiracy theory stuff really is nonsensical.

Then you say you don't need educated because you know the difference between FTTC and FTTP.
I think you do need educated or you wouldn't make statements like that.

The opposite is more likely. With more people moving from FTTC to FTTP then FTTC sync speeds are likely to increase due to less crosstalk. Congestion issues on FTTC are less likely as there are less users sharing the limited bandwidth between the FTTC cabinet and the OLT.

On a technical level it would be very difficult for Openreach to do this anyway.
In many cases the FTTC cabinet connects back to the exact same OLT as the ONT does for FTTP.
It can be the same OLT, L2S, GEA Cablelink and same backhaul. It is often just a different customer VLAN running over the same hardware.

Openreach would need to design a system that checks every individual FTTC connection, see if that connection comes from a property with FTTP available and if it does slow down that connection.
All in the hope that the customer stays with Openreach and upgrades to FTTP.

What would they possibly have to gain from that? It's much more likely the customer being slowed down would simply change to another FTTC provider or changes network altogether to an Alt-Net.

Providers would sue the **** out of Openreach if they did anything even remotely close to what you're suggesting. They would also get hammered by the regulator.

I don't think I know any neighbours who even know the difference between FTTC/P. They all just think they have "fibre" already.
You have had FTTP available for a few short weeks yet you've already had multiple people tell you they feel they are being slowed down in some behind the scenes push to get them to move to FTTP.

Take a step back for a minute and think about what you're actually suggesting. Technically/logistically it would be extremely difficult if not impossible for Openreach to do this, especially to do so in a way that doesn't set off alarm bells with providers and/or customers.

They have a programme in motion that has been consulted on for years with the regulator OFCOM, providers and customers that will make a move to FTTP compulsory without the need for illegally throttling the connections of paying/contracted customers.

You're posting these bizarre theories across multiple websites/forums, even going out of your way to register on kitz forum last week to post something similarly whacky.

You're heading for max territory (no offense max) with some of your postings.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

Any idea what proportion of posts in the Fibre Broadband section in the last, say, 2 weeks have been from a single poster? I rather enjoying reading the responses, mind.

If only it was as simple as allowing someone to get it out of their system, once and for all.

The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks 😎

I've just looked at the size of this thread, the content, John's most recent post and after over 20 years same as ISPR which haven't used in 2023 time for this to join it. The box of trolls, weirdos and recta that have taken root in those virtually unmoderated platforms have taken this board's SNR to below being useful. While not the cancer the ISPR comments are it's looking precancerous.

Am on Kitz if you want to get in touch, Sir. It is both moderated and has a block button.

Kitz you say. I've registered but never posted. Any good?

Already done it. Pass some of the popcorn my way.

The slow-down thing was not my saying, it was other people who said it and they did not say it was openreach doing it they think it is their ISP, but as I have said myself I doubt they would do that it would cause a stink. I also did not say they were in the same place I live, I do chat to people in other towns and cities.

But saying that, it would not shock me if at some point providers don't use some sort of tactics to get people to change over. Look at supermarkets taking manned checkouts out to push more people to selfscan or scan and shop. Companies will try anything to i push/force/nudge people to using what they want us to use, look at banks closing branches and getting rid of cash machines to push/force/nudge more people to using cards or contactless. Tesco using lower prices to push more to clubcards. Sainsburys doing the same sort of thing to get more people to use scan and shop.

Companies do these things so if a ISP, did try and slow down traffic to people still on FTTC, it should not shock me one little bit, notice i said if.

I have been reading Kitz for a while, I saw that post so thought i would reply, what is wacky about
Why? It should be up to the consumer at the end of the day. Sure if everyone in a city is on fibre and there are only a few left on FTTC then maybe I agree with you, but until that happens, people should have the choice and not be forced to move by increasing prices for FTTC or making out that there is a fault that can't be fixed.

Ok, maybe the part about the fault not able to fix is a bit, but again this is how companies work, there would be no proof that Openreach can't fix a fault.

Take the situation I was in around 5 years ago,
a few weeks after i recontracted the phone line went dead, it was fixed but for some reason the ECI modem I was using with the hub zero had stopped working, I borrowed a Huawei modem from my neighbour as they had a home hub from BT and it worked. Plusnet was in the process of sending me a new hub, so I kept my neighbour's modem connected until I go the new hub and that did not work either. So plusnet sent Openreach down here 3-4 times I think to try and sort it out, but they could not, then plusnet sent me the Zyxel , which worked for a couple of weeks and then stopped connecting, so I borrowed my neighbour modem again and until I was able to source my own Huawei modem from Ebay.

Now if FTTP was available here then and the complex repair thing was in place, do you think Openreach would have come down so many times to try and sort out the problem? Their own equipment would not sync which confused them.

I don't know what they did or when, but for the last year everything syncs again, even the old ECI modem. I thought maybe they changed the cabinet from Huawei, but I learnt on here they don't do that, so maybe they had a fault and had to replace something that sorted out my problem.
Anyway, the thing is, I doubt openreach would have bothered so much if FTTP was available here at the time.

Ofcom is a complete waste of space and if they told me the sky was blue I would have to go a look for myself.

But at the end of the day it should be up to the consumer to a certain degree, i agree that at some point we will all be on FTTP, which is what I said to my next door neighbour a few days ago, they are not going to change unless pushed because they have less reason to go for FTTP than me. they have Sky q, but they don't watch on demand stuff, to be honest I wonder why they have Sky in the first place as all they watch are the normal Tv channels most of the time and I think they have true crimes on now and again and the only other thing that is connected is an Echo dot and a tablet, plus their phones, so they won't change i doubt until they are pushed.
I would change to FTTP before then.

I agree with you about with more people moving from FTTC to FTTP then FTTC sync speeds are likely to increase, I doubt it will make any difference to me as I am on the edge of the distance from the cabinet to me of getting a pretty decent speed, I get a constant 36Mb/s, not that I am constantly test the speed, but when I do, it is always 36Mb/s. I tested it a couple of days ago when I thought something was going strange as a game downloading seemed very slow, but all was fine, so I took it that the server I was getting the files from was on a go slow.


As for Kitz, you and your buddies are safe there, the site is too old, out of date with news and is not worth bothering with

Sadly I have raised several times before the fact that this forum is no longer moderated to a level that prevents the issues you have highlighted happening. We once had Andrew doing a level of moderation but that is now a thing of the distant past.

You're a top-top bloke Carl and this forum is clearly worse off without your expert knowledge and contributions.

I did look for an ignore option the other day, that would improve things a lot

In reply to a post by jpm:

I did look for an ignore option the other day, that would improve things a lot

I believe management have a way to hide posts from selected people for you that you can request but its not something you can manage yourself sadly

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by jpm:

I did look for an ignore option the other day, that would improve things a lot

I believe management have a way to hide posts from selected people for you that you can request but its not something you can manage yourself sadly

I really cant fathom why the forum software just doesn't get upgraded...its 2023 not 1998 for heavens sake 🙈

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I really cant fathom why the forum software just doesn't get upgraded...its 2023 not 1998 for heavens sake 🙈

I think this is asked annually in Talk To The Staff. I recall previously the responses being along the lines of a) its not broken, b) we have customised lots, c) we don't do this as our main job, and d) what is the benefit to us (owners)?

I find some sites running newer software to be horrendous (e.g. SkyUser) and the threading on this board is quite useful, although many chose to ignore it, I doubt any currently-maintened forum software does threading?

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I really cant fathom why the forum software just doesn't get upgraded...its 2023 not 1998 for heavens sake 🙈

I think this is asked annually in Talk To The Staff. I recall previously the responses being along the lines of a) its not broken, b) we have customised lots, c) we don't do this as our main job, and d) what is the benefit to us (owners)?

I find some sites running newer software to be horrendous (e.g. SkyUser) and the threading on this board is quite useful, although many chose to ignore it, I doubt any currently-maintened forum software does threading?

This joint need a broom. A big one.

Clean sheet the whole shebang. If Mark can do it alone on ISPR....

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

This joint need a broom. A big one.
Clean sheet the whole shebang. If Mark can do it alone on ISPR....

Why not write [email protected] and ask the owners?

Yeah you’re right this isn’t the place for it.

I’ll write a nice, hopefully constructive email to John, Seb and that bloke with the gong…oh yeah Andrew

Will you join me - or are you satisfied with the status quo ?

I've been posting here for 20 years now and I have observed the following should it be useful

Zyborg will always reply to a reply to him.

XGS_is_on regularly leaves this and the other site and reappears with a new nick after a few weeks or months.

The owners do not and never have closely moderated the forum.

The forum is quieter now as the tech is mature.

I doubt any of this will change and so maybe it is best if users adapt themselves to the reality of the forum. .

HTH

Edited by FibreBubble (Tue 10-Jan-23 20:11:19)

20 years…who were you before FibreBubble?

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

I've been posting here for 20 years now and I have observed the following should it be useful

I've been here since March 2002 (according to my profile) and I agree with your post.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Will you join me - or are you satisfied with the status quo ?

It doesn't bother me as much I guess. I've used some forums with ignore, back to the days of NNTP readers and I see the volume in this place is way way down compared with when FTTC was being deployed, or even back to the original campaigns for ADSL in the early 2000s. Good luck on what you do

Some here don't want change, they are happy with the quagmire.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

20 years…who were you before FibreBubble?

This one for a start Linky

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

No one is going to give me a reason because there is no reason, it is no good saying I need to be educated and stop at that. Educate me.

Many years ago our house got hit by lightening. Despite not hitting the phone line it travelled down it and fried every phone, the router and the network adapter of every device connected to it. I've been counting the days until I could get fibre after that, want as few ways into the house for lightening as possible.

You also mentioned you could always leave Steam downloading overnight, except that means leaving your PC on consuming electricity for hours and you can't play that game until its done. Is your time not valuable?

Edited by alexatkin (Sun 15-Jan-23 10:53:59)

Please don't argue with him.

He doesn't *want* fibre, which you cannot deny, because that's a statement of fact about him (not about technology). Whatever reasons he gives for not wanting it are also statements about him.

Unfortunately, he also thinks that this forum is also about him, not about technology.

EDIT: to be fair to zyborg47, he doesn't come here telling other people that *they* shouldn't get FTTP or that *they* shouldn't get a smart meter or whatever. However, when someone else comes along who *does* want FTTP, he keeps repeating why *he* doesn't want FTTP, which is simply not relevant.

Edited by candlerb (Sun 15-Jan-23 10:47:47)

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

But saying that, it would not shock me if at some point providers don't use some sort of tactics to get people to change over.

But as you pointed out, they don't need to be sneaky about it.

They can outright say "we need to upgrade you to fibre" and/or increase the price of copper service. They're not even in the wrong to do that given it will cost more to maintain a copper service and the retiring of the copper network is inevitable, though probably not happening for quite some time still (at least on a national scale).

Been there and have the shirt too unfortunately. Lead in fibre won’t protect you at all I’m afraid if it’s an equipotential fault. Nearby strike.

In reply to a post by alexatkin:

But as you pointed out, they don't need to be sneaky about it.

They can outright say "we need to upgrade you to fibre" and/or increase the price of copper service. They're not even in the wrong to do that given it will cost more to maintain a copper service and the retiring of the copper network is inevitable, though probably not happening for quite some time still (at least on a national scale).

In reply to your post about lightening, the chance of lightning hitting phone cables is a chance in a million, I live on a large hill and my TV aerial is pretty high, or it used to be before it was lowered to make space for the wireless broadband unit, never been hit in the 20 years I have been here. Could it happen? maybe.

The aerial is disconnected, but the end of it is still on the window sill inside.

Ok, as for the fibre thing, at some point yes we will be forced/pushed/bribed to go to it and at that time I may already be using it, but at this moment in time I feel I don't need to change to fibre.
This is how I see it
I have 36Mb/s on FTTC, working fine, for an ok price, People say I can go for FTTP and keep the speed I am on and I know this, but my view is, why go through the hassle of having fibre installed just to keep to the same speed? If I am going to go through that rigmarole, then I may as well go for something faster and get something out of it. Then it comes back to me spending more for something I don't need.

Can you see what I am getting at?

At some point I may change or be made to change, but not yet,

18 pages of drivel posted by a troll who's being doing this for years, both here and other forums ruining thread after thread after thread with his inane diatribes.

Ludicrous that he's allowed to get away with it for so long.

In reply to a post by neo_wales:

18 pages of drivel posted by a troll who's being doing this for years, both here and other forums ruining thread after thread after thread with his inane diatribes.

Ludicrous that he's allowed to get away with it for so long.

Again, if you don't like it don't read it, I had you hidden as I got fed up with you're my son has a video card that cost more than your computer rubbish,
I thought i would check to see what you had posted
don't like it then get lost, simple as that