FTTP Installation A Total Disaster

Hi

I’m sharing my woes in the hope someone can help:

On the 1 of December 2022, a Bt Openreach tech installed my ONT. However, since then, I have had no access to the Internet. Zen has accepted that this situation is unacceptable and has also acknowledged and escalated my complaint regarding this matter. However they say that everything is working as it should be at their end and at the exchange. This was the response of one of their fault managers (addressing my complaint regarding the failed installation):
“I do apologize that this is still ongoing. I have submitted a complaint now for review and with regards to the latest update from Openreach, their network team had advised this was a potential zen issue with our exchange equipment, this was checked over on Friday before close of play and returned to Openreach as cleared as our equipment is fully functioning and there are no errors detected when leaving our optics.

I have spoken to Openreach again this morning to request that this be sent back to their DCoE team immediately and that they investigate fully before any further actions take place as faults like this can be incredibly hard to find and resolve due to the type of service in place.

I have asked for this to be dealt with ASAP and Openreach advised the team looking into this will resume on Monday when they are back in and we should have a full update by 07/12/22. again we will do everything we can to get this resolved and will keep pushing for someone to look into this sooner if possible.”

Even though the Openreach tech who carried out the install had a great deal of trouble splicing the cable at Customer Service Point (CSP) - it kept snapping - and he admitted he was struggling and had little experience with fibre installations of this type, the Openreach engineer who came to investigate the following day, firmly stated that as my ONT is showing solid green lights under the following: LAN, PON and Power, there is no way that this could be a hardware problem and refused to replace or reconnect the fibre optic cable. Instead, he advised me to request that Zen carries out a “cease and re provide”. Zen however have said that this is something that only Openreach can carry out and would only be done as a last resort.

I chose Zen because of their excellent reputation - however, I am left with a sour taste in my mouth and am deeply regretting it.

PS. The Fritzbox 7530 that Zen supplied is showing two solid green lights. However, when the diagnostic test is run, returns the following error: “The ISP is not responding to PPPoE packets.”

Edited by kam67 (Sat 03-Dec-22 19:34:14)

Personally, the replacing of the ONT would have been the first point of call if all the lights were on and nothing being received.

Sounds like the 2nd Openreach engineer just wanted to get the hell out of there.

Would of taken no time at all to connect a new ONT and test before saying it needed to go back to Zen.

Was it a OR engineer or 3rd party contractor?

Hi Breyer,

Thank you for your response - sorry I omitted to mention that the ONT was replaced. Alas, it did not resolve the issue.

What particularly worries me is the lack of certainty and pessimism that underlines the fault manager’s response - specifically in this phrase : “faults like this can be incredibly hard to find and resolve due to the type of service in place.” It leaves wondering if I will either have to terminate my contract, or be stuck in this limbo indefinitely.

This situation (total lack of internet access) and the lack of a definite or (even estimated) ETA is becoming incredibly and increasingly distressing for my family and I.

Edited by kam67 (Sat 03-Dec-22 19:57:58)

If there's a PON light then the fault is either that your ONT hasn't been handed off to Zen and instead has gone to another provider, or the fault is with Zen. The physical network is working at that point.

Thanks jpm - if it has been given to another provider, what would it take to rectify the matter? Would a “cease and reprovide” resolve the issue? Would going with another provider fix it?

Does anything happen if you plug a laptop into the ONT? You could try changing your PPPoE username in your router to bt_test_user@startup_domain with no password - I have no idea if this works on FTTP and chances are Zen have put you on their own network rather than using BT Wholesale but it's worth a try.

Thanks for the suggestion - will try when next at home (may be a few days when next have access).

What about going for another isp but using the same fibre connection (the same hardware - including the ONT)? Would that help?

I received the following email from the fault manager this evening - holding out the promise of a potential fix. I’m next in the property tomorrow morning, when I will follow the instructions given and retest - so fingers! :

“We have heard back from openreach to advise an engineer went out externally yesterday evening and was able to move your services to a new pair within the network and have asked us to reach out and request that the ONT unit is reset (there is a reset button located on the unit) and once that is done to reset the router and go through a manual setup and this should bring your services back online.

I understand that you had questions about the length of time this has taken and that we did previously advise that issues like the one seen can be hard to find and repair and I want to assure you that openreach are fully trained to find and resolve faults of this nature and after a senior engineer was sent yesterday to perform move in connectors, they have been able to get a solid light level with no warnings or failures showing and have requested us to retest this service with you.

Should you have any further issues after the ONT and router have been reset and configured, we will be able to send the case back over to them and request an escalation to be put in place to have the area manager informed of the issue and openreach re deployed to look into and resolve any further issues if needed.”


P.S. As for resetting the ONT, have not been able to find clear instructions. I am clear that the reset button on the side of the Openreach modem needs to be pressed. But not sure as to how long and until which pattern of lights is displayed. Would be grateful for some guidance.

"...an engineer went out externally yesterday evening and was able to move your services to a new pair within the network"

God bless. There is no copper and no 'pair'. Old habits (and fault commentary scripts) must die hard eh 🤣

TRANSLATION: the engineer probably just moved your drop cable connection to another port on the CBT on the pole or chamber near your house.

In reply to a post by kam67:

P.S. As for resetting the ONT, have not been able to find clear instructions. I am clear that the reset button on the side of the Openreach modem needs to be pressed. But not sure as to how long and until which pattern of lights is displayed. Would be grateful for some guidance.

Best bet is to simply pull the barrel connector power cable from the base of the ONT. Leave it for 30 seconds and then plug it back in again. Much easier than faffing around with the reset button

Thanks Pheasant - that’s very useful!

Just praying that’s done the trick - regardless of the accuracy of the script/language 😏!

P.S. It would be very revealing if the fix (hopefully!) involved reattaching/reconnecting cables at the CSP, as that where the Openreach tech seemed to be really struggling (breaking the cable several times - and in the end appeared to wrap the cables in what appeared to be a bit of cloth!)

Edited by kam67 (Sun 04-Dec-22 18:06:51)

CBT, not CSP. CBT ports are the connectorised points in the network. I still don't think it will make a difference since you had a solid green PON light, but it's possible they found a schoolboy error and have waffled a bit to make it sound more complex.

It was at the Customer Service Point (CSP) that the cable kept breaking. Isn’t that what the white box attached to outside of the wall of the house (my property) is called?

Yes but changes at the CSP don't make any sense when the report was "changed pairs in the network". As has been mentioned, the concept of a "pair" doesn't make sense either.

In reply to a post by kam67:

It was at the Customer Service Point (CSP) that the cable kept breaking. Isn’t that what the white box attached to outside of the wall of the house (my property) is called?

This is typically the result of inexperience, of the person doing the splicing; for example incorrectly preparing the fibre by being slightly too brutal with the stripper can result in the cladding of the fibre being nicked and then subsequently failing as the fibre prematurely fractures. Usually in a relatively short space of time, days or weeks.

Solution. Send out a more experienced engineer that has more than half a dozen splices to their name. Cut back the slack, and prepare the fibre correctly and re-do the splice.

OP has had consistent green light from what I can make of it. How does a fractured fibre give a green light?

I never claimed it did. I was replying to the fact that the 'cable kept breaking'.

In my view suggesting that the OP has problems with splicing at their property is unlikely and unhelpful as it suggests to the OP something local is wrong.

My hunch is this problem is somewhat further back up the line as the ONT thinks it is connected and connected to what it is supposed to be by the sounds of things.

Let's hope the 'Senior Engineer' has got to the bottom of it.

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

In my view suggesting that the OP has problems with splicing at their property is unlikely and unhelpful as it suggests to the OP something local is wrong.

My hunch is this problem is somewhat further back up the line as the ONT thinks it is connected and connected to what it is supposed to be by the sounds of things.

Let's hope the 'Senior Engineer' has got to the bottom of it.

Sure. I tend to agree - the problem could be an authentication or account issue at Zen's end. It could be backhaul related, it could be several other things.

However the OP does have concerns, as noted and quoted below. Although may not be directly related to the issue at hand. This doesn't necessarily read like good practice to me...he's raising it.

I'm trying to explain what could be the cause of that.

In reply to a post by kam67:

P.S. It would be very revealing if the fix (hopefully!) involved reattaching/reconnecting cables at the CSP, as that where the Openreach tech seemed to be really struggling (breaking the cable several times - and in the end appeared to wrap the cables in what appeared to be a bit of cloth!)

If the problem is related to a Zen issue such as authentication, what can Zen do to rectify the issue; and failing that, how likely would switching ISPs resolve the problem? Also there is still the avenue that the Openreach engineer advised going down: “Ceasing and Reproviding”. It is still unclear to me what this exactly entails. The only comment I’ve had from Zen regarding this matter is that it is a last resort and one that ultimately depends on Openreach rather than Zen. Anyone able to shed any light on this?

Edited by kam67 (Sun 04-Dec-22 23:23:52)

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

Let's hope the 'Senior Engineer' has got to the bottom of it.

Yes - I hope so too! Though can’t get rid of the feeling that sadly this nightmare isn’t over yet! Hope I’m (as often is the case) being unduly pessimistic. Have to say though that term “senior engineer” tends to set off my internal alarm system.

In reply to a post by kam67:

If the problem is related to a Zen issue such as authentication, how likely would switching ISPs resolve the problem?

Authentication is done by your ISP. So it follows your ISP. I would give Zen time to resolve the issue.

[For clarity and the avoidance of doubt - there is also ONT authentication onto the physical fibre network, the PON. This creates the end to end connection between your ONT and the OLT at the headend exchange. However this is all invisible to the end user and doesn't alter with ISP etc. If there was a problem here then the PON light on the ONT would not be solid green. This would be up to Openreach to resolve]

Thanks Pheasant - that’s helpful. In my case there is a solid green line on the PON. I do agree however that I need to give them time - especially given my contract with them states that I would be in my right to terminate without penalty only after a month had passed without my grievance being redressed. There is however still this mysterious matter of “cease and reprovide.”

Edited by kam67 (Sun 04-Dec-22 23:34:09)

In reply to a post by kam67:

If the problem is related to a Zen issue such as authentication, what can Zen do to rectify the issue; and failing that, how likely would switching ISPs resolve the problem? Also there is still the avenue that the Openreach engineer advised going down: “Ceasing and Reproviding”. It is still unclear to me what this exactly entails. The only comment I’ve had from Zen regarding this matter is that it is a last resort and one that ultimately depends on Openreach rather than Zen. Anyone able to shed any light on this?

I wrote my original reply above and then noticed you edited your post. My reply above still stands, however I would just reiterate that any authentication issues are with Zen to resolve wholly and solely. If there are further problem with the provisioning then again that is in the remit of Zen to resolve and you should give them time to work through the issue, where appropriate and necessary they will revert to Openreach.

Pulling the trigger on Zen right now probably isn't the best move. Let them try and resolve it.

How would I be certain that they are investigating the issue of authentication and related problems? Is ceasing and reproviding related to this?

You can’t. You simply have to wait.

Authentication and account issues are Zen internal matter. Anything to do with ceasing and re-providing the service on the physical network, is an order and business between Zen and Openreach. Again unless they explicitly tell you this is happening you can’t be certain of it.

In reply to a post by kam67:

... regardless of the accuracy of the script/language 😏!

That's putting it mildly! (My underlining)

There's no suggestion that Openreach mentioned a senior engineer. That's part of the talking-down style demonstrated below of the reply from Zen.

"I understand that you had questions about the length of time this has taken and that we did previously advise that issues like the one seen can be hard to find and repair" (So this Zen person is just quoting from their previous reply by someone else).

"and I want to assure you that openreach are fully trained to find and resolve faults of this nature ..." (That's what is expected from Openreach. It should be a given!)

"... and after a senior engineer was sent yesterday to perform move in connectors," (That could be unpleasant to clean up).

"... they have been able to get a solid light level with no warnings or failures showing and have requested us to retest this service with you". Surely that was also the case right at the start? As made clear by what you described at a couple of places in your opening post. Openreach previously suggested a Zen problem.

In reply to a post by kam67:

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

Let's hope the 'Senior Engineer' has got to the bottom of it.

Yes - I hope so too! Though can’t get rid of the feeling that sadly this nightmare isn’t over yet! Hope I’m (as often is the case) being unduly pessimistic. Have to say though that term “senior engineer” tends to set off my internal alarm system.

The word "senior" seems to have been introduced by Zen unless you missed it out in what you posted , which was that Openreach sent an engineer out who had moved a connection. As for ... have asked us to reach out and request that the ONT unit is reset", that is modern gobbledegook! In clear English it would be have requested we ask you to reset the ONT.

Unfortunately I’m still without internet access after the senior engineer’s visit and following the advice to reset the ONT and the Fritzbox.

This was my response to the Fault Manager:

Hi


I’ve followed your suggestions - resetting the ONT and the Fritzbox - and unfortunately neither has helped and I’m still without internet access.

This is extremely disheartening.

What is the next step? Can you alert escalate this further please?


I look forward to hearing from you ASAP

A nice man who seemed to be taking my troubles seriously (Gavin) - has reassured me that Zen will continue to work on my issue which he believes is on Zen’s side (by which he meant Zen at the exchange). He did reiterate that a cease and reprovide would be carried out but only as a last option.

Edited by kam67 (Mon 05-Dec-22 10:54:44)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

You can’t. You simply have to wait.

Authentication and account issues are Zen internal matter. Anything to do with ceasing and re-providing the service on the physical network, is an order and business between Zen and Openreach. Again unless they explicitly tell you this is happening you can’t be certain of it.

I thought that auth was ISP and a different layer ,to the physical hardware side, but earlier this year my FTTC service stopped authing Had sync but no auth, Engineer was sent by zen, and he tried a different modem /router same result, So he rang DoCE and did a lift and shift of port in the fftc cab and it worked again,

My response to Zen telling us to wait till tomorrow for an update from Openreach:

Dear Zen,

To be told that we have to wait for yet another day is not good enough.
  
My family and I are really at the end of our tether. 

This is proving to be by far the worst experience we have had from any ISP in over 22 years.

In his email yesterday, S said he would escalate my complaint and bring it to the attention of the Openreach area manager. Is this being done?

We have on several occasions about the option of cease and provide - which is what the Openreach technician who came on the 2/12/2022 advised.

Is this being looked at?

Edited by kam67 (Mon 05-Dec-22 14:32:08)

On a side note - Gavin, who was very helpful, tried using a test username on the Fritzbox but this did not help. If I understood correctly, this rules out this being an authentication issue?

It rules out the issue being with Zen's authentication. It could still be the case that your ONT has been provisioned onto the wrong ISP.

If you're desperate for a connection then it might be worth phoning Aquiss and seeing what they can do if given the ONT serial number - they might be able to get you on same-day.

In reply to a post by jpm:

It rules out the issue being with Zen's authentication. It could still be the case that your ONT has been provisioned onto the wrong ISP.

If you're desperate for a connection then it might be worth phoning Aquiss and seeing what they can do if given the ONT serial number - they might be able to get you on same-day.

Martin over at Aquiss would certainly be the guy to talk to regarding the OP's predicament

Thanks for the tip. I’m desperate enough to try any reasonable avenues at this juncture.
Is Martin a senior rep of Aquiss? Would it help if I posted this on the Aquiss sub forum:

I am writing to you to bring attention to the extremely upsetting situation my family (my partner Susan and two year old twins Rowan and Phoenix and I) have been in since our broadband service was installed by Zen (using BT OpenReach) almost a week ago (1/12/2022).

Since that date, we have had no access to the internet whatsoever. What’s worse, we have been left in limbo - not knowing whether the issue will ever be rectified by Zen and/or Openreach.

We chose Zen because of its outstanding reputation for customer care, yet ironically, this is proving to be by far the worst experience we have had from any ISP in over 22 years.

I’m not denying that real steps have been taken by Zen and Openreach in response to our issue (checking connections, replacing and resetting routers and modems etc.) yet so far not enough to identify, let alone fix the problem.

Every time we have requested an ETA, we have been met with an adamant refusal to provide us with any reassurance whatsoever that the problem will be resolved at all, let alone within a specific time frame.

One potential fix suggested by the last Openreach engineer who visited is “Cease and Reprovide;” However, according to several members of the Zen team , this has so far been resisted by the team at Zen - for reasons that are up till now unclear to us.

We have lodged a formal complaint with regards to the above horrible predicament we have been left in - so far with apparently little effect.

We are at a loss as how best to proceed; feeling utterly impotent and voiceless.

We have also been left wondering whether we have become hapless victims of the very success which attracted us (and we suspect many others, far more than Zen can comfortably digest perhaps) to Zen in the first place.

This whole episode has caused us so much uncertainty and distress at a particularly stressful juncture in our lives - in the midst of moving from London to a house in Sunbury On Thames (the latter being where Zen is supposed to be providing the Fibre broadband service) while bringing up our two year old twins in virtual isolation, in the aftermath of the pandemic and a series of family deaths.

I don't think any of that is relevant to fixing your problem by trying a new ISP - phone them (Aquiss) up and talk to them and say you have an ONT serial number and they will have your business if they can do a same-day activation.

Edited by jpm (Mon 05-Dec-22 21:28:11)

The human dimension is always relevant - particularly where it comes to the true meaning of customer care and the client-centred approach which Zen prides itself on.

I just meant it's loads of information that Aquiss don't need to know and won't help them answer your question - which is whether they can do a same-day activation when given an ONT serial number.

Will definitely try what you suggest in any case!

In reply to a post by kam67:

Thanks for the tip. I’m desperate enough to try any reasonable avenues at this juncture.
Is Martin a senior rep of Aquiss?

Martin Pitt is the managing director of Aquiss Limited. As jpm suggests initially a call to Aquiss would be the best first move.

Really sorry to hear about your family problems but please try to be patient and I'm sure things can be sorted out.

Thanks 4M2 - will definitely give it a try (calling Aquiss). It would be an immense relief simply to know that the issue will not eternally haunt me and is ISP related. Perhaps not surprisingly, those at Zen have suggested that the problem is likely to be hard baked and not going to go away by getting rid of them. Time will tell, I guess!

That's a bit of a wild claim. They're not covering themselves with glory here, if it's on their network then they could have connected to their switch in the exchange and watched you plug and unplug your router from the ONT and seen the MAC address come up and narrowed the problem down right away. It seems like they're no better than a bunch of script followers now.

I was watching an Openreach video on YouTube last night about fibre broadband and it was unbelievable how complex and numerous the connections are to eventually reach an end user's ONT. Even the the last connection to a premises can carry data for 32 other end users and from that an individual end user's data has to be authorized to feed the router.

Don't lose heart it can be fixed!

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Don't lose heart it can be fixed!

Thank you - hope so!

I'm very weary of Zen's authentication setup. Twice they broke it when migrating me Zen -> BTW and then BTW -> Zen, both times I had to call up to get service restored, until they did "something" to their authentication servers I couldn't log in, authentication would fail. All felt like it was held together with sticky tape, wet string and human intervention.

Not saying this is the issue the OP is having, but it's possible.

I wonder if the OP is on Zen's own network, or BTW?

Edited by jimbof (Tue 06-Dec-22 11:33:24)

Hi jimbof,

Zen is saying authentication is not the problem as the fault is still there even when employing a test username.

I’m really close to pulling the trigger and trying my luck with another ISP, but my partner thinks that’s letting Zen off the hook too easily -
and that we should not let up the pressure yet in insisting they deliver on their side of the bargain.

All I know is that this beginning to really affect my mental health - the whole thing is becoming quite nightmarish.

You can't do same day activations on active lines.
It would be a migration with a minimum 10 working days to transfer ISP.

You need to give Zen time to fix this, especially if the issue exists with Openreach.
If it's an Openreach fibre miss match for example then no provider can serve you till OR fix it.

You could end up giving whoever you are trying to help a whopping great bill for breaking contract.

It hasn't been a week since installation. You need to give Zen time to get this resolved.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

It hasn't been a week since installation. You need to give Zen time to get this resolved.

I would be willing to patiently await resolution if Zen were giving me hope that this is fixable within a reasonable time frame. Instead their whole attitude has been one full of extreme ambiguity and uncertainty.

Edited by kam67 (Tue 06-Dec-22 12:55:02)

Fair enough. I found it useful to use a laptop to try and log in, as that gave a bit more detail that the router, and seemed to show actual authentication failures where the username / password was being rejected.

I also found by searching around some details of some old BT test accounts that I could actually log into and end up on some weird BT test network.

Not that any of that will really tell you much. As others have suggested, there are a whole class of faults you could imagine that might be quite hard to figure out involving your connection not actually being what is arriving at your house...

I have been using a windows laptop connected to the Fritzbox (which is obviously connected in turn to the ONT via ethernet). As expected it consistently fails the internet test - stating that the ISP is refusing PPoE packets.

We have just bought the house - which makes this apparently fatal flaw all the more upsetting. To my partner’s horror, I have even contemplated selling the house, so hopeless has the broadband situation been.

Do you have wired ethernet on your laptop?
If so, I'm surprised Zen haven't suggested to you to try to connect to the ONT directly with the Windows laptop and set up a PPPoE connection from the Windows Dialup stuff.

PS I shouldn't stress so much over it, this isn't going to be unsolvable. Moving house is stressful enough I know, but this will get resolved. In most areas if this is causing a big problem you could always pick up a cheap mobile hotspot + SIM to tide you over for a few days, maybe see if Zen will help out with the cost.

Edited by jimbof (Tue 06-Dec-22 13:59:20)

Thanks again for your help jimbof (and everyone else who is kindly providing ongoing support on this thread).

Someone (sorry forget if it was you or someone else in this thread) previously has suggested plugging in the laptop to the ONT. How do you set up a PPoE connection via Windows Dial Up? It’s been so many years since I last tried that, that I have forgotten.

+1.

But reading between the lines (and perhaps not given the “open letter” diatribe to Aquiss) respectfully I think the OP needs to step away from this for at least 48 hours…for the sake of their own mental well-being! 😎

This is a broadband connection. They go wrong. Activations and migrations [censored] up. I won’t into launch my own six-month long saga getting a relatively straightforward new circuit installed.

If anything, if the OP can’t leave this be, then devote one’s energy to a workable backup internet solution. FTTP is not infallible.

The following is a concise guide. There's not much to it.
https://www.tp-link.com/uk/support/faq/921/
Actually I think the above might be out of date post one of the recent W10 updates. The following video should help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_8qdB_KNHY

I'd definitely consider spending some of the energy just getting an alternative connection setup though if the unavailability of internet is a big problem. If you get good mobile signal, it might only cost you a month's service or so.

Edited by jimbof (Tue 06-Dec-22 14:27:45)

In reply to a post by kam67:

We have just bought the house - which makes this apparently fatal flaw all the more upsetting. To my partner’s horror, I have even contemplated selling the house, so hopeless has the broadband situation been.

This isn't a productive line of thinking. Take a break from things for a few days, turn on your mobile hotspot.

Remember you are owed compensation for every day past the install date that Zen are unable to get your service working:
https://www.zen.co.uk/help-support/auto-compensation...

Appreciate your level headed think, jpm. And of course you are right. Just as a matter of interest, which mobile routers/devices would you recommend?

Yes - and of course you are right ,Pheasant: I’m in danger of getting too obsessive and heated about all of this. After all, it is only broadband. Hard to see the wood for the trees sometimes…

Edited by kam67 (Wed 07-Dec-22 01:19:52)

Three are offering their services on a "30 day money back guarantee" so you could just buy that fully intending to cancel the contract. Otherwise just use your phone as a hotspot, the Zen compensation will pay for any data bundles you need.

Thanks!

I received this email from Zen support this morning:

“I have good news! Openreach have advised they have fixed a routing issue on their network and your service should now be working.

I can see your connection isn't online so we'll need to look at factory resetting your router once more so this can call in and connect with all the right settings. Please use the guide below on how to reset the router...

https://www.edpnet.be/en/support/installation-and-us...

Please let me know if this works. I look forward to your reply.”


However if this had fixed the issue, my router would most likely be online without the need for resetting. In any case, I will travel from London down to the property and reset the router in the hope that this has worked against the odds.

My company had the same problem with an FTTP connection through Zen (Wholesale in this case). I witnessed some truly daft conversations between the Openreach tech and the "Digital Centre of Excellence." After weeks of equally daft explanations and visits from Zen and Openreach, the good folks on this forum suggested insisting on a "cease and reprovide". We did that, despite unhappiness with the idea at Zen (perhaps it costs them money) and the problem was solved. Suggest you do likewise.

That’s really helpful to know ajseeds - I suspect Zen will also have to resort to a “cease and reprovide” in the end. Would going another isp have the same effect?

@kam67. As noted in various posts above, you will be in contract with Zen, be wary of thinking you can break, without Zen being in agreement…

Martin Pitt has responded to your other post here. His words:

Zen however need to get you to a position to either resolve this or a contract between parties dissolved so you can move on.

If Zen refuses going down the route (forgive the pun!) of “cease and reprovide”, I will pay the penalty if needs be and end my contract with them as my health can’t take much more of this.

Below is my message to one of the Zen Fault Managers:

We Just need to be reassured Zen will go down this route of “cease and reprovide” if by the end of today, our connection is still not online. As our nerves and our healthy cannot take much more of this.

I’m 80% this will sadly indeed be the case and this rerouting will prove to be yet another false dawn! We will know for sure as soon as I arrive at the property and reset the Fritzbox (hopefully in an hour from now).

Kind regards

Edited by kam67 (Wed 07-Dec-22 12:30:49)

No worries. Deep breaths and carry on. Remember you're not in the house yet, so you have time to sort this.

A week is not an unreasonable amount of time to resolve a problem such as this. I know that may sound harsh and possibly unpalatable, but wanted to lend a sense of perspective.

As suggested you can pickup a 4/5G home broadband router from Three on next day delivery, that would be a pretty decent solution to tide you over. If it's not good you you have a 30 day money back guarantee.

https://www.three.co.uk/store/broadband/home-broadband

Thanks, Pheasant - appreciate your groundedness/levelheadedness. I need as much “calm” and deep breathing as I can get 😰

Really appreciate the support from yourself and the rest of those who have been contributing!

Dear Zen

As I feared, resetting the Fritzbox was useless as was trying to connect to the ONT directly via a single Ethernet cable with the help of a member of your support team .

This is simply not good enough.

Can we please go down the “cease and reprovide“ avenue, given all other potential solutions appear to have been exhausted?


Edit: After a chat with Martin of Aquiss - I’ve learnt that I can’t go with any other ISP till Zen agree to cease my contract and release me.

Edited by kam67 (Wed 07-Dec-22 15:49:23)

In reply to a post by kam67:

That’s really helpful to know ajseeds - I suspect Zen will also have to resort to a “cease and reprovide” in the end. Would going another isp have the same effect?

It might.
Going to another ISP would take a minimum of 10 working days though as technically you have an active service/contract with Zen.
That's 14 days from the day you place the order.
A cease and reprovide will be considerably quicker than that.

You need to forget that same day activation was mentioned above. It's only relevant if you have an ONT with a free port and only if Openreach actually have your fibres routing handled correctly. They clearly don't.

Same day activations are really for people who have used FTTP previously, where the ONT has already worked, or for pre-commissioned new builds where the ONT is active and ready when you move in. Though in the new build scenario issues like yours often pop up as service has never been supplied to that ONT before.
They aren't really suitable for abandoning a failed installation halfway through.

You are going to have to go through motions with Zen to correct this. Openreach so far are unable to identify your circuit and hand it off to Zen.
Others providers don't have some magic that can fix this and will almost certainly have the same problem.

Unless you and Zen come to an agreement to break your contract and walk away I can't see any way that you could order a service from another provider without a minimum 14 day lead time (migration) or potentially longer if an appointment needed booked for a new service (e.g a 4 port ONT install).

If my reading of the OFCOM compensation scheme is correct then your are entitled to £5.25 per day that your activation is delayed, including the installation day.
You will only be entitled to that if you allow Zen to fix it or both parties agree to terminate and they agree to compensate at the same time.

Buy a 4G SIM, use a hotspot or sign up to a temporary mobile broadband contract until it gets resolved.
99% of the time this will be fixed before you could get another service activated.

I'm pleased to read that you got definitive advice from Martin Pitt. Now you know for certain how to proceed with your broadband issues - good luck!

The latest from Zen’s fault managers is that they will be seeking an expedited cease and reprovide from Openreach’s managers. According to Zen, if the request is granted, we might be online by the end of the week or the beginning of next. Here’s hoping!

Also good to have some sort of broadband backup if it's financially viable...

I would agree that it's best as an interim measure to go for mobile data. I lost my FTTC service a few weeks ago (turned out to be a corroded NTE5C backplate). I found the best solution was to link my Android phone to my Draytek router: phone USB C -> USB-C to USB-A adapter. -> Ethernet adapter -> Draytek LAN port 4 (not WAN port). On the phone tap Hotspot & tethering and enable USB tethering. On the Draytek configure WAN2 as a fall back service.

I was using my normal GiffGaff SIM, I see they now give 20GB data and unlimited calls/texts for £10 per month. They don't do a data only SIM. Bigger data plans are available but 20GB should be fine if you avoid streaming. They use the O2 network.

The only downside to this solution for me was that I had to leave the phone next to my router in the garage where I have all my network equipment. Had the outage been more than a few days I would have bought a cheap phone. The alternative was a USB Wifi dongle in my main PC linked to my phone but that only provided access for the main PC whereas linking to the modem/router gave network access to the whole house and all my home automation systems.

I hope you have a resolution soon. Today internet access is almost as important as electricity, gas and water.

Today internet access is almost as important as electricity, gas and water.

Agreed Alan. It’s the fourth utility in many ways now.

I've stuck a little Zyxel 4G router in the attic, which I have configured as a fallback WAN on my Ubiquiti router. The fallback works great, taking over usually within fractions of a second (often people watching streaming in the house don't even notice it when I've tested). Get a little email / phone notification too to let me know the failover has happened. The Zyxel I have isn't very fast, I might look to upgrade it to something that supports the faster classes of comms later.
It's well worth having for the piece of mind if it doesn't stretch the finances too much.

Agreed. That’s a very neat solution. 👍

I think moving to another ISP would cause more opportunities for error, to say nothing of contractual complexity.
Simplest thing to do is to tell Zen to order an immediate cease and reprovide or cancel your contract and refund any monies paid. Then either problem is solved or you start with a new provider.

Yes you are right - still waiting to hear if Openreach have agreed to Zen’s request for an expedited cease and reprovide.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Agreed. That’s a very neat solution. 👍

But not of much use to those of us who need t'internet to have wi-fi calling due to poor mobile signals.

A neat solution for @jimbof - but I don't recall saying it was a perfect solution for EVERYONE in all manner of circumstances 😅

[BTW have you tried an external router -something like a ZTE MC7010 with a parabolic dish - its amazing what you can eek out of a marginal mobile signal area.]

I totally agree - which makes our plight all the more pressing; rightly or wrongly, access to the internet (of a high quality - especially if you have gotten used to that for many years) is a necessity and no longer a luxury.

P.S. Still waiting to hear from Zen regarding the cease and reprovide 🙁.

P.P.S. I am considering getting a 5g router as my indoor 5g reception on my iPhone is very good. Still resisting this as it feels like settling for an unacceptable compromise… But perhaps as a temporary stopgap?

Sure, but I don't think there was any indication the OP doesn't have a good signal strength.
I put it in as I literally seem to have the kid & wife on the verge of breakdown if the internet goes away. Here in the city centre even slow 4G is good for 30Mbps+, so it's quite useable for a couple of screens watching streaming.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

A neat solution for @jimbof - but I don't recall saying it was a perfect solution for EVERYONE in all manner of circumstances 😅

[BTW have you tried an external router -something like a ZTE MC7010 with a parabolic dish - its amazing what you can eek out of a marginal mobile signal area.]

AFAIK it would need listed building consent, add to that being in a conservation area, I think the answer would be "you have FTTP so don't need one", doubt I'd get consent as a back up.

If any houses around you are also listed and have burglar alarm bell boxes on them then you'd have no issues getting an external 5G router if that's what you wanted.

Or sky dishes if you need the parabolic. It’s a sky dish guv honest 😂

Around here a sky dish is pretty much impossible, as for alarm box, yes we have one, it was listed with one, what 'they' haven't spotted is it's now a different box.

Got a loft? Stick in there. Then the stickybeaks are non the wiser. You’re probably going to tell me you’ve got a 19th century lead lined roof now 😎😅

Close, it's 18thC thatched plus bird wire, might not be a Faraday cage, but certainly seems to reduce rf upstairs.

In reply to a post by kam67:

Yes you are right - still waiting to hear if Openreach have agreed to Zen’s request for an expedited cease and reprovide.

Reading about your problem puts me off changing to FTTP even more so. As I have said before, HASSLE.
I hope you get it sorted soon

The bird wire might make for a good LTE mesh antenna. What's the spacing of the air gaps?


[kidding]

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by kam67:

Yes you are right - still waiting to hear if Openreach have agreed to Zen’s request for an expedited cease and reprovide.

Reading about your problem puts me off changing to FTTP even more so. As I have said before, HASSLE.
I hope you get it sorted soon

Theres no need to kick a man in the nads when he's down and depressed. C'mon man.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Theres no need to kick a man in the nads when he's down and depressed. C'mon man.

LOL, I did think of it like that, but I do hope they get it sorted soon. They seem to be taking a long time.

Today Zen has confirmed that they will be carrying out an expedited cease and reprovide. So let’s hope this is the beginning of the end/the light at the end of this whole painful saga and that it will be a happy outcome; even if it takes a while - Zen are hopeful it will be resolved by late next week.

P.S. So for those who have followed this thread - please send your good wishes!

Edited by kam67 (Fri 09-Dec-22 13:33:06)

That's good, and yes let's hope it works.

The cynic in me says it will, but not as a direct result of what Openreach do. It will presumably mean Zen have to completely reset your connection at their end. 'Nuff said?

What is Openreach’s part in the cease and reprovide procedure?

Edited by kam67 (Fri 09-Dec-22 20:18:17)

Note that Openreach is the BT Group company that provides the exchanges and the actual connection network. Within each exchange a/your connection can be connected either to BT Wholesale or the ISP's (in this case Zen) own onward/receiving backhaul to Zen's in-house routers and servers.

Lift and shift on FTTP I'm not familiar but expect it is similar in effect to on FTTC, where your connection goes through different physical ports on the Openreach and other equipment in the exchange. Or perhaps the distribution port serving your premises. I dunno!

If it goes via BT Wholesale Zen has to connect into at least one of BTW's 20 nodes to collect or send the traffic. If it goes via Zen's own backhaul, (fibre rented from some other network provider) then it tends to be far cheaper for Zen than using the BTW service.

However there is no escaping the Openreach physical connection between you the subscriber and the exchange unless one of the newer companies such as CityFibre has cabled your street. (And of course Virgin Media which has been around for decades but is a different technology). If with one of these new companies or an ISP that uses them then Openreach are not really involved in the day-to-day stuff.

I was under the impression that cease and reprovide did not involve physical changes in the (Openreach?) network - or does it?

Many years ago during my first stint on AAISP, they did a cease and reprovide to get me moved to another DSLAM vendor, both vendors operated by BTw.

But that was a long time ago, not sure if its physical now days.

With FTTP its going to be logical (soft) changes - as the "circuits" are essentially virtual changes in the Layer 2 switch and OLT configurations that carry the traffic from your ONT back to the handover point - the ISP backhaul connection at the exchange.

The question that I hardly dare ask is:
What happens if the cease and reprovide fails?
Is the only remaining option the physical reworking of the connection? Will Openreach agree to this as a last resort?

AaaaaaaaargggH

I was talking about lift and shift .

D'oh!

Sorry was that: “Doh!” intended for me? If so, I don’t get it…. I’m aware that a “lift and shift” is a physical switch around. Are you saying that there is nothing more physical than the “cease and reprovide” (which is the equivalent of a “lift and shift”)?

The D'oh! was aimed at myself! For being so stoopid!

You have a solid green PON light, there is nothing wrong with any physical part of your link.

In reply to a post by jpm:

You have a solid green PON light, there is nothing wrong with any physical part of your link.

Truly hope so - and pray that that means “the cease and reprovide” will do the trick!

In reply to a post by pluralist:

The D'oh! was aimed at myself! For being so stoopid!

Ok okay - sorry misunderstood!

If you want to understand a little more about how FTTP is configured take a look at Openreach SIN506- Google will find it for you and it will be something to read while you wait for the cease and reprovide to be completed.
One useful thing to do, if you are at the property before then, is to note the number of the ONT; this is on a barcoded stick-on label on the front of the ONT. You can then check with Zen what ONT they are attempting to connect to and check that the number they give you is the same as the one you have on the ONT. "You get what you inspect, not what you expect." Fingers crossed that all will go well.

A cease and re provide on FTTP and a lift and shift on ADSL /VDSL are not really similar at all , as already stated , the fact that your ONT has a steady PON light lit , means the ONT and the OLT are successfully ‘talking’ to each other….on your PON there could be as many as 30 other customers, most of which won’t be using the same ISP as you , but optically they are identical to you, there is only 1 fibre from the 32/1 splitter to the OLT , the output from the OLT is visible to all ONT on the PON , but your ONT only ‘uses’ the data addressed to it , ignoring all the other traffic , ( OR tend to only go upto 30 not 32 customers ) so the OLT needs to be able to differentiate your traffic from all the other ONT traffic , and know where to hand this traffic off ( to your ISP backhaul )
All a cease and provide will achieve is to clear any existing ‘routing’ data ,within the OLT ( headend) incase it’s corrupted or was incorrectly set from the outset, and provide you with ‘new’ connection ‘data’ from scratch…obviously in the hope that the new configuration overwrite and errors , and will be OK.
There have been some implications made that Openreach have likely done something wrong , but I would contend that it’s equally likely that the error is with the ISP , if OR are handing off the ‘data’ to the logical address that the ISP has provided, but your ISP cannot get you ‘connected’ , that’s not going to be an OR problem, hopefully your cease and provide , which has no physical element, apart from potentially someone entering a few keyboard commands, will sort out the issue….if it doesn’t , I would suggest you are at the end of your journey with this particular ISP and it would be time to consider using someone else.

Edited by Iniltous (Sat 10-Dec-22 13:42:35)

kam67

There is nothing physically wrong with your connection. The cease will strip all the data out from both OR and Zen systems., The reprovide will build the data up again from scratch as if it were a new connection.

This should cure the problem. You will never know which network was the culprit they will both claim it was the other BUT neither will know either.

It takes the 10 days as this is the OFCOM mandated time for a customer to be moved (to prevent slamming) and this job goes into the same queue.

When dealing with computer systems these issues occasionally arise due to corruption in the data somewhere (electronic chaff or a missing electron) from my experience maybe 1 in 100000 transactions with maybe 5 transactions being involved in your provide. You just redo them and everything works, which can be a real frustration when you are testing an implementation as you then have to repeat the whole thing to prove to yourself that is wasn't a flaw in the design!

Thanks, Kitcat, for your thorough and clear explanation of what the process entails.
If, for some reason, I’m unlucky enough for it to fail, what would the next step be? Or would it mean, I’d be up the proverbial creak?

P.S. I have just noticed that Initous has answered my question above, and that in his opinion, in the unfortunate case of a failed cease and reprovide, the only remaining steps left open to me would be to cease with Zen and try my luck with a new provider. Thanks, Initous, for sharing your views - although would switching providers make any difference in such a scenario?

Edited by kam67 (Sat 10-Dec-22 15:02:46)

In reply to a post by ajseeds:

One useful thing to do, if you are at the property before then, is to note the number of the ONT; this is on a barcoded stick-on label on the front of the ONT. You can then check with Zen what ONT they are attempting to connect to and check that the number they give you is the same as the one you have on the ONT. "You get what you inspect, not what you expect." Fingers crossed that all will go well.

Thanks ajseeds - I do have the serial number of the ONT. It was already swapped out for a new one to rule out that being the culprit. And thank you for the crossed fingers 😊🙏🏼

P.S. If problems do arise after the cease and reprovide (and I pray that they don’t for the sake of my sanity and that of my family) I will definitely check Zen have the correct serial number.

Edited by kam67 (Sat 10-Dec-22 15:10:07)

kam67

Switching providers would do a cease of Zen and a provide with the new supplier. It would only help if Zen have an issue stuck in their config. The cease and provide they are doing at present 'should' clear any issues IF they do it correctly.

There are possibilities of really exotic faults but swapping out the ONT should already have cleared many of these.

Thanks again for your knowledgable input, kitcat.

Upon reflection, I’m aware that I’m looking for the sort of reassurance that
no one can provide alas: reassurance that it will all turn out alright in the end.

In reply to a post by kam67:

The question that I hardly dare ask is:
What happens if the cease and reprovide fails?
Is the only remaining option the physical reworking of the connection? Will Openreach agree to this as a last resort?

They could attempt it again.

If this isn't sorted by Monday close of play, you should request to be released from your agreement without further penalty and find a new ISP. It may take another 10 days to get activated but probably worth it for your peace of mind / sanity.

[I'm not sure quite what's happened behind the scenes at Zen recently. They were decent once. Now I wouldn't recommend them to my worst enemy]

Yes this whole episode has seriously challenged my mental health - will give them till the end of next week before pulling the plug

What result do you get if you put your address in the BT Wholesale checker? Does it say an ONT exists with active service and a new ONT can be ordered?

“Our records show the following FTTP network service information for these premises:-Single Dwelling Unit Residential OH Feed with no anticipated issues.

ONT exists with active service. No spare ports are available. A new ONT may be ordered.”

Place another order with Cuckoo on a rolling monthly contract to have something in the system (another fibre cable and another ONT will be installed). If Zen sort themselves out, great. If not then you have a working service that is quite expensive but with no commitment to keep it. You then have time to find your long term provider to enable the original ONT and can cease Cuckoo in your own time.

Oh that would be a great idea if it were to work! However, I spoke to Martin at Aquiss and he was under the impression that I couldn’t have more than full fibre connection at a time.

No, he said you can't take over an existing service quickly. This is a new ONT and new fibre.

So I would not be stepping on Zen’s toes or impacting my Zen FTTP connection in anyway?

And if so, would this be a good way to rule out anything physical? In other words, would it mean that I could have new fibre spliced at the CSP (thus ridding myself of the niggling, albeit irrational, suspicion that my problem is linked to a poor/badly spliced cable?)

Edited by kam67 (Sat 10-Dec-22 21:08:53)

No, it's not a migration. It's a new order with a new ONT. As far as Zen are concerned it's like your neighbour ordering FTTP, nothing to do with their connection at all. Maybe worth emailing Cuckoo to ensure the order goes through properly as a new service.

Edited by jpm (Sat 10-Dec-22 21:08:47)

Okay thanks jpm - will confirm with them.

Isn’t it likely that an assumption will be made that you are wanting to replace the existing provider rather than to install a completely new parallel connection?

That's why you email them and explain what you're doing. Keep it brief, they don't need to know about your issues with Zen, they just need to know that you want a new service and not a migration.

Edited by jpm (Sat 10-Dec-22 21:25:06)

In reply to a post by kam67:

So I would not be stepping on Zen’s toes or impacting my Zen FTTP connection in anyway?

And if so, would this be a good way to rule out anything physical? In other words, would it mean that I could have new fibre spliced at the CSP (thus ridding myself of the niggling, albeit irrational, suspicion that my problem is linked to a poor/badly spliced cable?)

If there was dodgy splice in the CSP your service would have worked , albeit potentially periodically , and occasionally you would see the LOS light lit ( los of signal) ,a dodgy splice isn’t going to be the issue .
Your ‘end’ needs no further investigation, you have had a change of ONT , the light levels are apparently fine , and your ONT is authenticated on the PON , whatever the issue is , it’s between the OLT and the handover point into Zen or the wholesale provider that Zen use.
Ordering a second service before the first has been correctly provided is of no concern to your initial order , if it gets installed and works before Zen sort out their service to you ( no prejudice from me , it could be an OR or Zen problem ) it wouldn’t really indicate where the first service issue is, but you could be in a situation where you have two services and getting rid of the one you don’t want costs you early termination fees.

Post deleted by kam67

In reply to a post by jpm:

That's why you email them and explain what you're doing. Keep it brief, they don't need to know about your issues with Zen, they just need to know that you want a new service and not a migration.

Yes quite !

uno https://www.uno.uk/packages/fttp-broadband/ might also provide you with a FTTP (broadband only) service on a one month minimum term if you decide to have FTTP accounts with different providers at the same address. You would have to pay for the installation/activation which could be in the region of £100 though...

In reply to a post by 4M2:

uno https://www.uno.uk/packages/fttp-broadband/ might also provide you with a FTTP (broadband only) service on a one month minimum term if you decide to have FTTP accounts with different providers at the same address. You would have to pay for the installation/activation which could be in the region of £100 though...

Unfortunately Uno requires an active phone line (I believe?) and I don’t have one.

In reply to a post by kam67:

Unfortunately Uno requires an active phone line (I believe?) and I don’t have one.

You could try messaging or calling uno sales on Monday if you think a second FTTP account is a viable potential option.

In reply to a post by kam67:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

uno https://www.uno.uk/packages/fttp-broadband/ might also provide you with a FTTP (broadband only) service on a one month minimum term if you decide to have FTTP accounts with different providers at the same address. You would have to pay for the installation/activation which could be in the region of £100 though...

Unfortunately Uno requires an active phone line (I believe?) and I don’t have one.

I can't see why if you are going for an FTTP option.

I received this response from a Zen Complaints Manager:

“I have been reviewing your complaint regarding the issues you have experienced around your full fibre activation. I want to firstly say sorry for the inconvenience and frustration that this has caused you, I understand that this has been ongoing for some time now and that you are still without service at your new address. This is not what we want and I am working with our technical support and our order management teams to ensure that we are doing everything to get this resolved for you as soon as possible. Given the situation that you have found yourself in, we will of course compensate you for the inconvenience that this has caused.

I can see that the teams have started the ball rolling on the cease and reprovide as this looks to be the only way to get the service corrected for you, the cease is now in place and as soon as this is complete, we will be able to reprovide the service with an expedite to ensure this is done as quickly as possible. I will continue to monitor the cease and reprovide and I will be providing updates to you moving forward to ensure that you are kept in the loop on the progress that we are making.

We need to allow the cease to complete before we can reprovide the service but as I mentioned above, we will be expediting this to ensure that this is done as quickly as possible.

You can contact me directly by replying to this email and I will be able to get back to you as soon as possible.

Kind regards, ”


So I guess, given this response from their complaints team, I need to allow Zen time to try and salvage things (perhaps a week is reasonable) through an expedited cease and reprovide. The ball is in their court.

In reply to a post by jpm:

No, he said you can't take over an existing service quickly. This is a new ONT and new fibre.

I ruled this option out, due to lead time, especially as I'm aware of the OP back story from speaking to them.

Lead times in most parts of the UK for a new ONT/Install, is circa 6-7 weeks currently.

I would suggest that a safer method is for you to contact Zen, now, and ask them to tell you the number of the ONT that they think they are trying to connect to. Check the number they give you against the ONT number that you have recorded and make sure that they agree. That would eliminate one of the mess-ups that sometimes occurs. Sorry to reduce the issue to such basics; but in my company's experience poor communication between Openreach and other communications providers is a far more frequent cause of problems than technical failures.

By the way, I agree with others on this forum who have advised you that with a solid green PON light on your ONT there is no hardware issue at your end.

Thanks ajseeds - as Zen is about to carry out a reprovide on my connection (hopefully next week) - from what you are saying, it would be a good idea to email them the serial number of my ONT and ask them to double check it corresponds to the one they attempt to connect to?

Don't tell them what your ONT serial number is, because they could get lazy and reply saying it matches. Ask them what they have recorded as your ONT serial and verify it yourself.

In reply to a post by jpm:

Don't tell them what your ONT serial number is, because they could get lazy and reply saying it matches. Ask them what they have recorded as your ONT serial and verify it yourself.

Thank you - good point

In reply to a post by jpm:

Don't tell them what your ONT serial number is, because they could get lazy and reply saying it matches. Ask them what they have recorded as your ONT serial and verify it yourself.

Good point. Gosh it would be tragic if in the process of swapping the original ONT they hadn’t properly passed though (their systems) the updated serial number through / or indeed Openreach their systems. Stranger things.

Just got this text from Openreach. Hopefully part of the cease and reprovide process. Does the message indicate that the reprovide will be initiated on the 12/12/2022, or more likely, that the cease will occur on that date?

Hi, this is Openreach on behalf of your Service Provider. They’ve instructed us that there are changes to your FTTP service planned for 12-DEC-2022. If you are moving out of the property, please ensure you leave the ONT and power cable behind as they will not work in your new property. Your ONT is the Openreach box which sits with your router and connects to the fibre cable where it enters the property. To see what an ONT looks like, please visit the Openreach website: Help - phone and broadband problems https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/problems-...

P.S. If Zen doesn’t fix my FTTP by the latter part of next week, I’m going to insist on cancelling my contract and going with someone else.

Edited by kam67 (Sun 11-Dec-22 14:53:34)

Yes.

The fact that Openreach is asking me to leave the ONT behind in case I’m moving strongly suggests that the 12th is the cease date.

Edited by kam67 (Sun 11-Dec-22 16:04:01)

Zen obviously want it sorted out quickly in order to reduce their overall costs - good luck.

And hopefully to salvage their reputation! I’ve so far held off posting a Trustpilot review. Or is that delusions of grandeur (to think they care about my opinion, I mean)?

P.S. Thank you for the good wishes.

In reply to a post by aquiss:

In reply to a post by jpm:

No, he said you can't take over an existing service quickly. This is a new ONT and new fibre.

I ruled this option out, due to lead time, especially as I'm aware of the OP back story from speaking to them.

Lead times in most parts of the UK for a new ONT/Install, is circa 6-7 weeks currently.

Only now noticed your response, Martin. Appreciate your input.

So a new ONT install is possible but likely to involve lengthy delays. It’s good to know it’s there as an option of last resorts/forced measures, in any case.
It does seem odd that a new ONT should take that long, though! Having said it took longer than 3 weeks to get my original slot with Zen.

Edited by kam67 (Sun 11-Dec-22 18:16:12)

Correct. It’s OR notifying you of the start of the process.

It's engineer availability, the glory days of leased lines going in within 10 days of the order (if there was already fibre in place) are gone. Most of our mid-November bookings ended up with January install dates.

That’s a shame.

4 months. Still waiting. Last 4 visits they’ve not turned up. But then turn up unannounced. Hopeless.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

kam67

There is nothing physically wrong with your connection. The cease will strip all the data out from both OR and Zen systems., The reprovide will build the data up again from scratch as if it were a new connection.

This should cure the problem. You will never know which network was the culprit they will both claim it was the other BUT neither will know either.

It takes the 10 days as this is the OFCOM mandated time for a customer to be moved (to prevent slamming) and this job goes into the same queue.

I don't think a cease and reprovide comes with the same 10 minimum days mandated by OFCOM for a migration.
An ISP isn't slamming itself.

Think they can be done much quicker than that.

I recall an ISP rep on here (can't remember who) saying they can be as little as 5 days but usually average around 10 (not working) days.
Can't find the post.

A 2 week wait for a C+R is a bit [censored]. Hopefully doesn't take that long.

Any idea what an enhanced cease and reprovide is?

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0026...

Edited by j0hn83 (Sun 11-Dec-22 21:12:13)

uno sales informed me recently that, depending on circumstances, it could take 30 to 40 days (actual lead time) to have FTTP (broadband only) installed. Currently the ADSL and land line copper pair are fed under ground to my address. So I imagine, if I was to order FTTP from them, the end of January or early February would be realistic for an installation given the Christmas holidays etc.

I noticed Uno offers FTTP on two separate packages: One using the BT Wholesale network (Fibre Direct) and the other using the Vodafone network (Fibre Direct Pro). Given my present malfunctioning Zen package is on the BT Wholesale Network, I was wondering if I were to subscribe to the latter Vodafone based one, I would rule out the likelihood of a repeat of any issues that might be specifically related to the BT Wholesale Network.

In reply to a post by kam67:

I noticed Uno offers FTTP on two separate packages: One using the BT Wholesale network (Fibre Direct) and the other using the Vodafone network (Fibre Direct Pro). Given my present malfunctioning Zen package is on the BT Wholesale Network, I was wondering if I were to subscribe to the latter Vodafone based one, I would rule out the likelihood of a repeat of any issues that might be specifically related to the BT Wholesale Network.

Are you sure your service is on BTW-based backhaul? It could indeed be Zen-backhaul.

Remember BTW is not the same as Openreach.

BT wholesale is not the same as Openreach. You connect to Zen via Openreach. AFAIK, Both BT wholesale and Vodafone would run over the same openreach fiber, unless you have CityFibre available.

In reply to a post by kam67:

I noticed Uno offers FTTP on two separate packages: One using the BT Wholesale network (Fibre Direct) and the other using the Vodafone network (Fibre Direct Pro). Given my present malfunctioning Zen package is on the BT Wholesale Network, I was wondering if I were to subscribe to the latter Vodafone based one, I would rule out the likelihood of a repeat of any issues that might be specifically related to the BT Wholesale Network.

That's a good question! It was the Fibre Direct Pro product that I was interested in and indeed it did appear to be offered over the Vodafone network. Hearing from another source I understood that Vodafone FTTP can be either Openreach based or Cityfibre based but I'm certainly not sure what that actually means.

Edit: just noticed that jecop has provided an answer

Edited by 4M2 (Sun 11-Dec-22 23:33:03)

In reply to a post by jecop:

BT wholesale is not the same as Openreach. You connect to Zen via Openreach. AFAIK, Both BT wholesale and Vodafone would run over the same openreach fiber, unless you have CityFibre available.

Yes sorry was confusing Bt Wholesale and Openreach.

In reply to a post by jecop:

BT wholesale is not the same as Openreach. You connect to Zen via Openreach. AFAIK, Both BT wholesale and Vodafone would run over the same openreach fiber, unless you have CityFibre available.

And don’t have CityFibre available.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

4 months. Still waiting. Last 4 visits they’ve not turned up. But then turn up unannounced. Hopeless.

Which ISP was that, Pheasant?

Not broadband. It’s a DIA (leased line) connection where Openreach are providing the tail connections.

In reply to a post by kam67:

In reply to a post by jecop:

BT wholesale is not the same as Openreach. You connect to Zen via Openreach. AFAIK, Both BT wholesale and Vodafone would run over the same openreach fiber, unless you have CityFibre available.

Yes sorry was confusing Bt Wholesale and Openreach.

It’s worth checking / knowing (in the fullness of time) whether your Zen connection is using BTW based backhaul or indeed Zen’s own backhaul. Folks have had issues when migrated into the latter.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

It’s worth checking / knowing (in the fullness of time) whether your Zen connection is using BTW based backhaul or indeed Zen’s own backhaul. Folks have had issues when migrated into the latter.

How would I know whether I’m on BTW or Zen based backhaul?
Just found out that I’m WBC (Wholesale Broadband Connect) FTTP. Is WBC the same as BTW?

Edited by kam67 (Mon 12-Dec-22 00:25:39)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Not broadband. It’s a DIA (leased line) connection where Openreach are providing the tail connections.

Okay thanks for clarifying

Yes that's BT Wholesale based backhaul, rather than Zen's own GEA backhaul.

You may want to check this with Zen; that there aren't any mistakes at their end with authentication, if you had been provisioned (or intended to be provisioned) onto Zen backhaul - especially with authentication issues like you appear to be having.

Edited by Pheasant (Mon 12-Dec-22 00:31:02)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Yes that's BT Wholesale based backhaul, rather than Zen's own GEA backhaul.

That’s good to know - though sadly has not helped in my case.

Late edit above...

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Yes that's BT Wholesale based backhaul, rather than Zen's own GEA backhaul.

You may want to check this with Zen; that there aren't any mistakes at their end with authentication, if you had been provisioned (or intended to be provisioned) onto Zen backhaul - especially with authentication issues like you appear to be having.

What would be the correct question to ask Zen? Something along the lines that “the BT Wholesale Checker indicates that I’m on BT Wholesale Backhaul. Is this correct? Or should I be on Zen backhaul? “

In reply to a post by kam67:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Yes that's BT Wholesale based backhaul, rather than Zen's own GEA backhaul.

You may want to check this with Zen; that there aren't any mistakes at their end with authentication, if you had been provisioned (or intended to be provisioned) onto Zen backhaul - especially with authentication issues like you appear to be having.

What would be the correct question to ask Zen? Something along the lines that “the BT Wholesale Checker indicates that I’m on BT Wholesale Backhaul. Is this correct? Or should I be on Zen backhaul? “

Ah no, no no - I think you misunderstood, and I think I misunderstood you.

This information on which Zen backhaul you have is not available from he BTW Checker - this is internal to Zen and any notes etc about it would be on your Zen account portal - or from speaking directly with Zen.

Zen will choose how they will get your traffic from the exchange back to them (this is the backhaul) - they will either use BT Wholesale to provide this connection or indeed their own GEA backhaul.

This is not to be confused with the information on the publicly available BT Wholesale checker tool.

In reply to a post by jpm:

No, it's not a migration. It's a new order with a new ONT. As far as Zen are concerned it's like your neighbour ordering FTTP, nothing to do with their connection at all. Maybe worth emailing Cuckoo to ensure the order goes through properly as a new service.

This was Cukoo’s response to the above. Disappointing!

“Thanks for getting in touch. I've raised this with our specialist team to see about the feasibility of it - they're looking into all possibilities but it is quite a complex operation so it might take a little while for us to get back to you with an answer.

I hope this is ok, please be assured we're looking into it and we'll get in touch with an answer as soon as we have one.

Best wishes,
Cuckoo Broadband”

If you consider a response in under 3 business hours acknowledging your query and letting you know it's been referred to a team who can give a concrete answer to be disappointing then I don't really know what to tell you.

In reply to a post by jpm:

If you consider a response in under 3 business hours acknowledging your query and letting you know it's been referred to a team who can give a concrete answer to be disappointing then I don't really know what to tell you.

It’s more the description of my request as being “complex” that sets the alarm bells ringing.

I have been watching this thread from a distance

I do think that you should leave Zen to have a second go at getting it right before you muddy the water with additional ISP's providing additional FTTP services as its only going to over complicate things and could end in tears.

In reply to a post by dect:

I have been watching this thread from a distance

I do think that you should leave Zen to have a second go at getting it right before you muddy the water with additional ISP's providing additional FTTP services as its only going to over complicate things and could end in tears.

Thanks for your advice, dect. And yes, you are probably right. If this reprovide does not work, I will almost definitely leave Zen and go with another ISP (unless they have a very convincing argument why I should give them another try).

In reply to a post by dect:

I have been watching this thread from a distance

I do think that you should leave Zen to have a second go at getting it right before you muddy the water with additional ISP's providing additional FTTP services as its only going to over complicate things and could end in tears.

Yep, I agree,

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by dect:

I have been watching this thread from a distance

I do think that you should leave Zen to have a second go at getting it right before you muddy the water with additional ISP's providing additional FTTP services as its only going to over complicate things and could end in tears.

Yep, I agree,

Thanks for making your views known on this known, Adrian. Appreciate your advice!

Still waiting anxiously to see if the reprovide has worked once it’s been fully actioned.

This from Zen Faults Manager: “I have checked the re-provide order today and this shows that it has completed. I have done some further checks and we are now able to see a connection on the line on our connection graph which I have included below.

This is a positive sign as we have not been able to see a connection on the line previously. I was hoping that you may have been or may be going to the property soon to test the connection from your end to ensure that the connection is working as we would expect it too.

Kind regards,”



So off to property to check all is now good . Fingers crossed!

P.S. Praying that this not another false positive!

cid:190f8fb1-94b4-43ed-8104-14b08f7edc05@Image_0_

Tried and failed to copy and paste graph sadly 🙁


Addendum:

Dear Zen Faults and Complaints,

Great news - All looks good my end!


Thank you both for seeing this through - and you’ve made me (and family) one happy customer 😊!


Also a big thank you for all who have supported me on this thread/forum!

Edited by kam67 (Tue 13-Dec-22 14:33:13)

Great news for you.

now relax and enjoy the new house and FTTP.

Thanks kitcat 😊!

All fixed in less than 48 hours - Well done Zen!

Edited by kam67 (Tue 13-Dec-22 15:33:07)

In reply to a post by kam67:

All fixed in less than 48 hours - Well done Zen!

Great news. But it did start ten days ago ....

So far so good - the Fritzbox’s Wi-Fi leaves a lot to be desired though (Ethernet is great so far). Any tips? Zen support suggested an AVM Fritzbox Mesh extender. Perhaps need to start a separate/new thread…

Edited by kam67 (Tue 13-Dec-22 18:36:05)

Minus points to everyone involved for it having to take so long to resolve something which was clearly just some kind of configuration issue somewhere, where if the right people had been on the case it could I'm sure have been fixed in seconds. Pretty pathetic all round.

Yeah, absolutely. Sufficient escalation with Openreach and getting the right people from each side on the same phone call would have fixed this.

Great news @kam67. Now to make sure you're getting full throughput.

In reply to a post by jpm:

Yeah, absolutely. Sufficient escalation with Openreach and getting the right people from each side on the same phone call would have fixed this.

Yes perhaps I’m forgiving/praising them too easily… I guess I bought into the notion that this was an extremely rare and esoteric issue and thus a devilishly difficult one to solve.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Great news @kam67. Now to make sure you're getting full throughput.

Thanks Pheasant!

Now to the question that is most pressing, now that I’ve managed to actually get a connection: how do I address the poor Wi-Fi (seems very erratic - even though living in a house with little interference) in those areas of the house where ethernet is impractical (needing to be very long) - should I get an AVM Fritz repeater 3000 (as recommended by Zen support)?

As you said, a new thread may be better. In General Chatter as it's not Zen-specific . Nor Fritz-box specific. Get a wider range of knowledge.

Edited by pluralist (Wed 14-Dec-22 00:52:19)

In reply to a post by pluralist:

As you said, a new thread may be better. In General Chatter as it's not Zen-specific . Nor Fritz-box specific. Get a wider range of knowledge.

Okay thanks - will do as suggested.

In reply to a post by kam67:

Now to the question that is most pressing, now that I’ve managed to actually get a connection: how do I address the poor Wi-Fi (seems very erratic - even though living in a house with little interference) in those areas of the house where ethernet is impractical (needing to be very long) - should I get an AVM Fritz repeater 3000 (as recommended by Zen support)?

Personally, I tried a number of ways to mitigate the poor Wifi on the Fritbox including the 3000 Repeater and I ended up with three plug in Fritz Repeaters as well. - What a polava.

Eventually, I gave up on the Fritzbox Wifi and I bought an Asus RT AX88U router instead and this covers the whole house without the need for repeaters. - It also has a WAN Port.

Since FTTP has an ONT, you do not need a router with an internal modem and there are quite a few routers with good Wifi.

Regards,
Fido

In reply to a post by Fido:

In reply to a post by kam67:

Now to the question that is most pressing, now that I’ve managed to actually get a connection: how do I address the poor Wi-Fi (seems very erratic - even though living in a house with little interference) in those areas of the house where ethernet is impractical (needing to be very long) - should I get an AVM Fritz repeater 3000 (as recommended by Zen support)?

Personally, I tried a number of ways to mitigate the poor Wifi on the Fritbox including the 3000 Repeater and I ended up with three plug in Fritz Repeaters as well. - What a polava.

Eventually, I gave up on the Fritzbox Wifi and I bought an Asus RT AX88U router instead and this covers the whole house without the need for repeaters. - It also has a WAN Port.

Since FTTP has an ONT, you do not need a router with an internal modem and there are quite a few routers with good Wifi.

Regards,
Fido

Thanks for the tip Fido - “a palaver” is exactly how I reacted to all the complexity of all the various Wi-Fi configurations/setups. How do you set up the Ax88U for a Zen connection? Just input Zen username and password?

Edited by kam67 (Wed 14-Dec-22 05:51:58)

I have a different Asus router, but for Zen FTTP over OpenReach - I just selected PPPoE - then the Zen account & password and it worked

Okay that’s great - thanks Ken

Edited by kam67 (Wed 14-Dec-22 09:46:34)

Sigh - out of the frying pan into the fire.

Massive packet loss showing and Zen support corroborating this.
Strange - no real world symptoms apart from erratic Wi-Fi speeds….

Edit: the strange thing is it doesn’t seem to be affecting real world performance.

Could this be a symptom of a bad splice, or is that unlikely?

Edited by kam67 (Wed 14-Dec-22 12:59:06)

Yuk!

Has the Fritz box itself been replaced during this saga, (save me re-reading the whole thread), and any ethernet cables in use whether or not?

Is there any possible electromagnetic interference close to the ONT or router? Including coiled up power and comms cables? Especially if close together.

I'm in last resort overkill there, but such problems used to be common. Coiled/looped mains power cables create a magnetic field.

Edited by pluralist (Wed 14-Dec-22 13:02:06)

Hi Pluralist,

The router has not been swapped out and no obvious of electromagnetic interference.

The funny thing is I had an FTTC Zen service at another address a year ago and the symptoms were identical - even to the minute details of graph’s peaks and troughs.

In that case there was no real world impact either. In the end, the cause was found to be running more than one ping monitor at a time. But in this case, we have made sure that only one monitor is active now (since 11am this morning).

I just have to take a few deep breaths and calm down.

The fact that there is no perceptible impact on real world performance is some comfort.

(Trying to copy and paste a thinkbroadband.com graph but doesn’t seem to be working)

Edited by kam67 (Wed 14-Dec-22 14:09:06)

If you mean the BQM graph, the recommended way is to post one of the several links below your graph. Not the img format though! I used to put the Live link one in my sig. That can also go in the forums like any other link but so can a static one for any given day.

Then we just follow the link. It hides any personal info that you can see yourself.

Edited by pluralist (Wed 14-Dec-22 14:15:52)

I believe the Zen fritzbox router has limitations on how many pings it will service. It is worth checking to see if Zen have put their own ping monitor on your service; if they have then the BQM may not function correctly for you and report high losses.

Hi Jimbof,

Yes they have placed their own monitor on my connection, but only after they requested I disabled mine - and according to them there was still bad packet loss showing.

This the best I could manage https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/...

That's perfect for us to see. But a dreadful graph!

It doesn't look to be the "live" one? Showing up to 11:30pm or thereabouts?

Re the timescale across the bottom it becomes a true rolling 24-hour scale after a full day, and you can then select days from the history for static posts.

Edit: Of course it can't be live as you say Zen wanted you to disable it!

Edited by pluralist (Wed 14-Dec-22 17:14:12)

In reply to a post by kam67:

Hi Jimbof,

Yes they have placed their own monitor on my connection, but only after they requested I disabled mine - and according to them there was still bad packet loss showing.

You are not having much luck.

I hope it all gets sorted soon.

In reply to a post by kam67:

Could this be a symptom of a bad splice, or is that unlikely?

Indeed it could. That's actually the most likely course of events with a new FTTP install.

However: I would expect it to be causing you some serious performance issues.

How's https://packetlosstest.com/ looking?

you using a fritzbox?

They throttle pings.

Hi Chrysalis,

Yes - a Fritzbox 7530 that Zen provides as standard. Was also coming to the same conclusion about the Fritzboxes rejecting pings - As had the same issue with the same Fritzbox model on a Zen FTTC connections couple of years ago. Tempted to try a third party router. Maybe one of the better Asus (like the Asus RT-AX86U or RT-AX88U) routers?